To be fair, they have an easy out to quiet most without seeming like total pussies smarmily caving to the most threatening group. They could just release an update to backers saying the patch will add a toggle to change Jontron's voice work that will be set to on by default, change the patch to just add a toggle, apologize for any confusion and ambiguity their statement may have caused and use Team17's PR department as a scapegoat, given that Team17 seems to be doing the majority of the antagonizing and silencing. Say that they have dealt with and had the employees who were banning and locking dissenting opinions removed from the positions they held and profess that they encourage their backers to have open and candid discussions and apologize for their actions. Then just keep their head down.
It'd all be at least plausible; they've been vague and evasive a number of times already. Most would probably see through it, but not be able to prove they were just trying save as much face as possible and giving the most pacifying lip service possible. And the majority of the controversy would fade away to grumbles by release and they could work to make more apolitical games and express their political opinions as individuals and not as a company using a project funded by 70,000 people.
It'd be a really easy and diplomatic option that wouldn't be easy to be very upset about.
Playtonic very clearly and in detail outlined exactly what they promised this game to contain. They then proceeded to deliver exactly what they promised (as far as the trailers appear, obviously I'm yet to play the game).
People who backed this project should have been doing so based on the promises within this kickstarter, not things that were not promised, and not within the campaign.
Y'all literally gave them money to make exactly what they said they would, they've now spent the money on making what they said they would, and what you gave them money to do, and now that it is spent and the game is made, you want your money back.
I've never seen more misplaced entitlement than I've seen in this campaign's comment section.
@Strawmancrow it was still never promised in the campaign, if people backed without reading the campaign, or backed based on conversations (not even promises) that were held outside of the kick-starter campaign, they did so at their own peril.
Ok, this brings the refunds into a whole new light. Again, I don't want one, but Playtonic really shot themselves in the foot. Jontron being in the game happened before the backing period ended, some people backed it because of Jontron.
And again, my earlier point stands. If Playtonic wants to cut ties with Jontron because of his beliefs they cannot play the moralist while taking the money of people who support him. They're not cutting ties if they're taking money from people with a belief, or who support a belief, that Playtonic wants to take a stand against.
The way I see it is this;
Playtonic can refund the money, and prove that they're not simply virtue-signalling by willingly making a sacrifice to back up their beliefs, which is the most respectable thing they can do. Whether or not I agree with their stance doesn't matter, and shouldn't matter, because this option shows they have principles they actually stand for.
Playtonic can restore Jontron's content, which will make them look good AND bad. Bad because it shows they were just trying to virtue signal, but good because it shows they at least understand that they cocked up big time.
Playtonic can keep the money and still cut Jontron's content, making them look like a bunch of greedy opportunists with absolutely no scruples. Basically, become the money-minded business men who they're trying to mock with Capital B.
@David
In no way are they violating our constitutional or legal rights, but there are certain courtesies and guidelines common law democracies have to extend similar freedoms in most locations and situations. It is the reason many retailers offer exchanges or returns instead of telling you to take it up with the producer as a warranty issue and the reason you can say most things on almost any private property.
If they were violating any standard legal rights, people would be pressing charges (granted that would be complicated due to the international nature, although I think in using Kickstarter they would be liable to all American laws). Everything they are doing is technically constitutional, but it is crappy and sketchy and goes against the common values of free societies.
But yeah, for folks who are upset whether it be JonTron or due to the UK's policies on free speech, vote with your dollar!
Charge backs are possible at the moment, and no it's not illegal, not in America anyways.
I'm enjoying these debates here, keep it up! Debate is a good way to communicate over differing view points, just keep it civil and clean though, we all Loved Rareware obviously, so we share that common ground. Good luck fam!
Hey Playtonic. Just wanted to voice my support for your decision to cut JonTron. It sucks that you've been forced to deal with the consequences of his hubris, but you made the correct decision.
I'm not sure how you guys are expecting a refund if you funded the game itself. The game is already made, the money is gone, and unless you can undo months of coding/game creation and somehow get the money out of that, it's already gone. Doesn't matter if you contributed $10 or $100, that's been used up for the game.
I'm just a little confused here.
Also, I am indifferent on the current debacle that has been happening, on an unrelated note. So take my words with however many grains of salt as you want.
I find your use of the phrase "private politics" curious, given the very public manner in which JonTron disseminated his controversial comments.
I agree, however, that JonTron's voice work had nothing to do with those statements. But as noted previously, it also had almost nothing to do with the game's story.
Had JonTron played a major role — or even a minor one with non-trivial significance to the plot — it would be easier for Playtonic to justify its retention without fueling an inference that its management endorses his views.
JonTron's participation wasn't based on artistic merit; it was a shout-out to JonTron and his fans — little more than the auditory equivalent of a sign reading "We love JonTron!" It was gesture of appreciation — essentially serving no other purpose — so its continued inclusion could be construed as an affirmation of the company's unwavering support for JonTron and celebration of his involvement in the game's production. Do you understand why that might be problematic? JonTron seems to (and for that, I give him credit).
If refunds are allowed (wich I don't think it's possible) I hope further funding is allowed too, as I want to support this game and help make up for this backlash I find greatly exagerated. If not, then I guess I'll get another new copy for a console.
I agree that deleting unflattering messages and banning the users posting them is a bad idea. But the assertion that your "freedom has been infringed upon" betrays your ignorance of the subject and trivializes the plights of those who've suffered and died in pursuit of free speech.
Unfettered use of a company's website is neither a basic human right nor a constitutional one in any country on Earth. Freedom of speech includes an entitlement to express one's opinions, not guaranteed access to a private forum in which to promulgate them (or any such cooperation on the part of your criticism's target).
Do the actions in question (assuming that they've been described accurately) give disgruntled fans additional grounds for complaint? Absolutely. Are said individuals being deprived of their free speech rights? Absolutely not.
I messaged Playtonic roughly two days ago through this site and still have not heard back from them.
I will be posting a grievance here, like many others.
JonTron's involvement wasn't known by me until the day they announced he would be removed, but I've reached a point where I'm tired of this political garbage being thrown around in gaming circles. It happened with Razer and Lionhead on Twitter, and with the limerick in Pillars of Eternity. The outrage and threatening people with labels into submission has worn out my last nerve. So I wish to pull my support from this.
Some would argue "Wow, the removal of a small voice role is enough to make you demand a refund? That's petty!" To them, I say this: You were going to paint Playtonic with -isms if they didn't kick him, and all Jon does in this game is make nonsensical sounds. It doesn't bring his politics into it. It's just a voice role.
His removal was made political. This was going to be a fun collect-a-thon game with cartoony animals all over the place, but certain people had to throw a fit over nothing and bring politics into it. And it isn't about what JonTron believes that motivated my decision, it's that he was let go for holding certain private politics in general.
I'm sure your game is fun, Playtonic. I was excited for it. But this removal, and not only that, but also the deep policing of the Steam discussion page to remove this topic is disgusting and unprofessional. That's Might No. 9 levels of poor community management. Virtually any other path you could've taken would've led to a better outcome for you. You should've disregarded all the complaints about Jon being involved, because sensible people are aware that a game is made by multiple kinds of people. Not just in terms of race, gender, nationality, or religion, but also of opinion and political standing. No one position on anything from a member of the development team represents the whole. And Jon was merely a voice actor, which makes this situation even more sad for you.
So, in light of the unprofessional conduct and the injection of politics into this situation, I do not wish to support Yooka-Laylee any longer. I just wanted a fun game without any unnecessary drama. And you almost made it to the finish line in that regard.
In this situation, as it stands, I would like to either have my pledge refunded, or to see the decision to remove him overturned and an apology issued.
In regards to recent events concerning Jontron and him having a political view beeing the reason he was cut I am going to concider a refund.
A political view point by an individual should never be the reason you fire a man. doesnt matter if you agree with him or not cuting him from the game does however say more about disagrement with his opinion or stance meaning you inadvertantly took a side.
I would like to know if a refund is possible and also know what your stance is on how youve handled this sitation as many others aswell. Have a great day regardles and dont forget to make the game great as I still patiantly await its arrival.
Our freedom has been infringed upon on the forums and store pages where they have made it clear they don't want any dissenting opinions. Which yeah, I get. I don't think they realized exactly how unpopular political correctness and censorship are in gaming currently, and didn't want to have things start imploding. So by being out of touch, they do something PC and then go and try to censor us and keep us from disagreeing with it.
The only reason we are communicating here is because Kickstarter doesn't let them silence the things they don't want to hear. This is the only official space those unhappy can go and freely criticize their decisions and express disapproval and frustration without having the discussion locked and being banned.
JonTron's freedom of speech remains intact. Condemning his comments and removing his voice recording from the game is an exercise in free speech on the part of Playtonic. Likewise, criticism of Playtonic's decision is an exercise in free speech on the part of those who disagree with it. No one's freedom of speech has been infringed.
That seems like a fair assessment. Playtonic and affiliated entities had no hope of pleasing everybody, but it appears as though things could have been handled better on their end.
Irrespective of where the blame falls, I think that everyone can agree that the situation is unfortunate all around. JonTron has lost an opportunity that undoubtedly meant a great deal to him, his fans have lost the satisfaction of seeing it play out, some of those looking forward to the game have lost confidence in Playtonic (to one extent or another), Playtonic has lost the aforementioned fans' goodwill, and everyone who wanted/wants the game to succeed has gained a potential source of doubt that it will (which I hope proves unfounded).
Has anyone had any luck getting a response from Playtonic about getting a refund or any information at all regarding their decision? If they don't willingly offer a refund, I'm just selling my signed copy of the game anyway.
@David Levy:
1. Jontron for weeks prior had been in livestreams where he just shoots the breeze with others, usually with Sargon with others joining in. He mistakenly thought that would be the case here but was cornered. When Destiny found himself in an actual debate with someone who is prepared he himself got wrecked thoroughly. Moreover, Destiny has also has some, how should we say, controversial stances of his own. These points are usually not brought up. And yes, Youtube Red, thank you for catching that. I stand corrected.
2. All sides of the issue should be examined. Personally it looks like it's yet another case of something being blown way out of proportion, which is what we see too much of nowadays with inflamed passions. Taking a few steps back would indeed allow one to see the bigger picture. I'm still backing it, but feel that the situation could have been managed a little better.
3. Now, my personal assessment is this: JonTron is a Superfan of the Banjo Kazooie style games and Rareware in general. He gave free advertising and was ecstatic being cast in a spiritual successor, so much so that he volunteered to voice on his own time and dime. What Playtonic did to him, possibly their biggest fan, didn't sit well with lesser fans and they voiced their discontent. They were effectively banned and silenced in a series of questionable PR moves. After the snafu with Mass Effect Andromeda, companies should perhaps remain neutral and avoid pandering, agitation, and censorship on social media as much as possible. Or in the case of Nioh, you can engage the community, build a positive relationship, and improve the game based on input and debut it to healthy sales. Again, this is only my opinion.
1. You mean YouTube Red. (RedTube is something very different and very NSFW.)
2. I don't know whether JonTron was tricked into debating. It wouldn't surprise me, as he obviously wasn't adequately prepared (as he's stated himself).
I do know that Destiny wasn't Gish Galloping. Frankly, he didn't need to. It wasn't so much a victory on his part as it was a self-inflicted defeat on the part of JonTron. A debate coach could literally use JonTron's performance to compile a "mistakes to avoid" checklist. He just kept digging himself deeper and deeper. Essentially, Destiny handed him a shovel and pointed him to the dirt. JonTron took care of the rest.
I should note that I'd never heard of Destiny before this incident. For all I know, he had all sorts of underhanded tactics planned. I got the impression that he was astonished by his opponent's ineptitude and realized in the moment that JonTron was his own worst enemy.
Does this mean that JonTron is a racist? No. He might just be a terrible debater. (He's described himself as such, so that much is uncontested.)
Did JonTron's comments sound racist? Yes, to many people (myself included). There's no question that he was flustered, so perhaps his words came out differently than he intended. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it isn't my video game whose reputation is at stake. I don't believe that Playtonic owes him this courtesy, and it doesn't appear that JonTron does either. He's disappointed in their decision, but he understands why they made it and doesn't want to see the game fail.
Amid the binary argument of whether JonTron is a bad person for the things he said or Playtonic is bad for removing his cameo from the game, I propose a third possibility: JonTron isn't a bad person, but he made a bad mistake, resulting in a bad situation for everyone involved. Maybe Playtonic (and/or affiliated entities) reacted badly too, but let's try to see the big picture.
I really wish we could have the option of choosing a physical copy for the Nintendo switch instead of the other consoles, and just wait for its release. Nothing against a PS4 or XBONE, but id rather have a game inspired by classic nintendo titles, on a nintendo console. Id be happy to wait for its release over getting it for a system I cant play it on.
@anon you seriously think they insulted the backers by removing him? Seriously? You didn't even know he was going to be involved when you backed. Really, if anyone should be giving an apology, it should be Jontron (not sure if he did).
Jontron wasn't involved with the project during the campaign at all. He was brought in after as a voice.
The company has the right to choose to cancel his involvement if they choose, and the backers who are complaining have no standing unless Playtonic chooses to allow them to refund out of their own generosity since they're complaining about something that was never part of the original funding agreement.
Understood. I don't mean to imply that a chargeback isn't a legitimate option for backers who sincerely believe that it's the proper course of action. I just want to ensure that they're able to make an informed decision (with a full understanding of the process and its potential drawbacks).
In particular, it's important to stress that "going through for the moment" means very little, as this is virtually assured in all but the most frivolous cases (i.e., those in which a complaint would be invalid even if the details provided by the account holder were entirely accurate and uncontested — e.g., "I can't afford to pay this" or "I need the money for something else").
In other words, the mere assertion of an actual breach of contract (to which the merchant has not yet had an opportunity to respond) is sufficient grounds for a tentative chargeback, despite the possibility that it's partially or entirely false.
I also want to stress that a chargeback's purpose is not to undo a purchase that the customer simply regrets making (regardless of justification). Apart from very specific circumstances inapplicable to this case, buyer's remorse doesn't negate a legally binding agreement, even if it stems from disappointing behavior on the part of the seller — provided that the fundamental terms were upheld.
In this instance, backers should ask themselves whether Playtonic materially misrepresented the transaction's nature or otherwise failed to fulfill its contractual obligations. Had JonTron's participation been advertised or some other relevant promise (e.g., "We'll never remove content from the game.) been made during the Kickstarter campaign, I would see the basis for such a claim.
Conversely, I'm reading statements to the effect of "The people at Playtonic are acting like a bunch of jerks. I find their conduct reprehensible and no longer wish to support them."
To be clear, I'm not here to debate the validity of those sentiments. People are entitled to disapprove of Playtonic's handling of the situation and express this opinion publicly. My point is that such dissatisfaction does not necessarily carry a legal remedy. Typically, the available recourse is to warn others and refrain from doing business with the company in the future.
Glad I backed this so I can post. I'll try and be 'respectful and considerate' something that Team 17 and this game's developer's have not afforded its customers. Here are the facts:
1. A few weeks ago the Wall Street Journal took out of context statements and skits PewDiePie made on his youtube channel making it seem like he was a Pro-white nationalist costing him his redtube series and losing a lucrative partnership with Disney.
2. Jontron was tricked into debating another youtuber named Destiny who used a fallacious technique called a gish gallop to declare himself the winner. What wasn't mentioned was Destiny getting stomped by seasoned debater Sargon of Akkad afterward as well as Destiny's own troubling viewpoints brought up in a naked ape youtube video.
3. Like with PewDiePie, a "journalist" along with neogafer's brought Jontron's 'Nationalist' sentiment to light thus having him dropped from the game. Despite JT being free advertising.
4. Dissent of all forms was purged, refund requests were denied and mocked by a blue-haired ban-hammer mod on Steam who works for Team 17. Only fawning adulation remains on reddit
and steam subforums.
5. tl;dr version: virtue signalling allowed, they can critique, others cannot, and they keep KS money UNLESS...
6. Chargebacks are working currently. It takes money directly from them, and is not illegal as some drones attest to on these forums. However, you might get banned from KS.
@Dean Jones
Okay, sure. Not recommending people do or don't do it. Just be aware.
Also, discriminating based on political opinion is also a thing protected in UK. Very muddy, and my understanding of UK law is limited. Especially considering that regardless, JonTron was probably paid for the job, and the inclusion of his content is not a guarantee. Though I think that hardly matters to those who want to chargeback. \_(o.O)_/
I've seen people demand refunds claiming that they supposedly backed the project solely because of Jontron's involvement, even thought said involvement was revealed only after the funding had ended. This whole backlash is sounding more and more like a fraud.
Okay. Sure. I don't dispute that chargebacks may or may not be permanent. But they are going through for the moment. It's an option many want to take. Whether or not it even will work, it is something worth knowing either way. This, in effect can be effective action by many. By virtue of credit card and banking institutions getting various chargebacks for the same sources, this could cause much attention. Frankly, that may be desired by all. Playtonics isn't listening and being jerks about things, I'm sure they may be whistling a different toon when kickstarter knocks on their door and says "WTF!?!". Nothing speaks louder than money. Perception from those i personally know who have done chargebacks, they did it in large part due to the fact that Playtonics blatant disrespect of backers thus far, is in part due to the fact they feel they "Already have their money", and thus don't give a damn about slapping them in the face. Chargebacks one way or another, is not going to be taken lightly by many people involved. Perhaps it's the jolt the system needs to wake up. This can damage potentially everyone involved. I do mean everyone, backers included.
Again, it's standard operating procedure for a credit card issuer to perform a chargeback when an account holder files a plausible claim that a merchant failed to deliver a product or service as promised.
At the initial stage, it's a temporary measure intended to err on the side of the customer, thereby shielding him/her from a potentially injurious monetary expense and/or credit rating impact. It does does not indicate that the dispute has been decided in his/her favor. It merely means that the complaint isn't obviously invalid (based solely upon as-yet unanswered assertions).
The next step is to contact the merchant for a response, after which the evidence provided by both parties will be considered and a final determination will be made (at which point the chargeback will be upheld or reversed).
In other words, this isn't a simple matter of weighing the refund's value against the potential revocation of one's Kickstarter account. There's no guarantee that the chargeback will stand, so it's possible to be given the boot by Kickstarter and still end up paying the amount pledged.
Chargebacks are working. Just note to people doing chargebacks, that this may well break TOS for Kickstarter, and you may be removed from KS.
I have a few friends that have done the chargebacks already. I have not decided yet myself. I'm terribly disappointed in Playtonics on all this. Even if I maintain my donation, I think i'm done with Playtonics. A lot hinges on how they handle things. So far, they've handled things absolutely terribly. Taking a political stance was a terrible business decision on their part.
I just wish Switch were getting a physical version. I want a terrible tasting version of Yooka Laylee and blu ray discs just can't taste terrible. Can't even get them in your mouth really.
Maybe they are working hard on patching out all the names of those seeking refunds/chargebacks from the credits? That would explain why they aren't communicating via email and just censoring people on their main forums and steam forums.
Personally I would love to pledge more than I originally did. All the physical rewards are probably done by now though. Still it would be nice to show I'm still supporting them in these noisy times.
It's standard operating procedure for a credit card issuer to grant a chargeback when an account holder reports that a product or service owed to him/her was not delivered as promised. This is tentative and subject to reversal at a later date (following a merchant inquiry and examination of evidence supplied by both parties).
At this stage, any account credit issued reflects nothing beyond a determination that the client's claims are sufficiently credible to investigate (i.e., not obviously invalid); it doesn't mean that the dispute has been decided in his/her favor.
@Ryan My money's on temporary success. Kickstarter does investigate each charge back dispute, and people are leaving all sorts of evidence here in the comments. They'll get the money back- but only for a short while.
Eh, I was more here to voice my frustration at the disrespect shown anyway. Have my own opinions on the statement as that's clear but I don't blame them for doing it. Just for being assholes afterwards.
I don't know if people charging back will be successful either. I'm not one of them.
@Ryan Again, no one here is saying you can't react to it. Plus no one here is actually getting blocked/banned- the only "silencing" I've heard of from anyone else is people asking for refunds on the steam forums- y'know, the exact wrong place to request something like that.
While also on the subject of refunds and chargebacks... how well do you think it's going to turn out for you people doing chargebacks? You spent the money back in 2015, Playtonic already spent that money on development, and you're going to get the promised product (Except in the case of Wii U, but anyone who wanted a refund for that already had their chance.) Do you really think it's going to work out in your favor, or that Playtonic won't fight it?
@Ryan and in doing so maintained their position as a family friendly, all-inclusive company. Sure, they may have annoyed people who have differing political opinions, but I'd rather offend someone over politics than race. In the end of the day, if I say to you "I don't agree with your stance on this." We've disagreed over an intellectual issue, if I say "I don't agree with you because of your race/gender" what I've done is not disagree with you over an intellectual issue, but over something that you can not change about yourself.
@Kieren Sure, they're free to have their own personal opinion, and they were free to publish that statement and free to remove to Jon. But people are free to react to all of it, until they get squashed wherever Playtonic or T17 have editorial control for having the wrong opinion, and laughed at by the same people. So they've given ammo to the fringe, alienated backers, pissed off the free speech people, and the sort of people who want this stuff don't even care. That's where I was going
@Ryan if the so called 'vocal minority' are the majority within their company than they have the right to take their company in whatever direction they want to. I love that you keep using words like 'surrendered' and 'pandering' as if you can't comprehend the possibility that they themselves, actively disagreed with what Jon said, and decided they didn't want his views represented in their game.
Use this space to cheer the creator along, ask questions, and talk to your fellow backers. Please remember to be respectful and considerate. Thanks!
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Show older commentsAdam just now
@Strawmancrow
To be fair, they have an easy out to quiet most without seeming like total pussies smarmily caving to the most threatening group. They could just release an update to backers saying the patch will add a toggle to change Jontron's voice work that will be set to on by default, change the patch to just add a toggle, apologize for any confusion and ambiguity their statement may have caused and use Team17's PR department as a scapegoat, given that Team17 seems to be doing the majority of the antagonizing and silencing. Say that they have dealt with and had the employees who were banning and locking dissenting opinions removed from the positions they held and profess that they encourage their backers to have open and candid discussions and apologize for their actions. Then just keep their head down.
It'd all be at least plausible; they've been vague and evasive a number of times already. Most would probably see through it, but not be able to prove they were just trying save as much face as possible and giving the most pacifying lip service possible. And the majority of the controversy would fade away to grumbles by release and they could work to make more apolitical games and express their political opinions as individuals and not as a company using a project funded by 70,000 people.
It'd be a really easy and diplomatic option that wouldn't be easy to be very upset about.
Kieren Smith 15 minutes ago
Playtonic very clearly and in detail outlined exactly what they promised this game to contain. They then proceeded to deliver exactly what they promised (as far as the trailers appear, obviously I'm yet to play the game).
People who backed this project should have been doing so based on the promises within this kickstarter, not things that were not promised, and not within the campaign.
Y'all literally gave them money to make exactly what they said they would, they've now spent the money on making what they said they would, and what you gave them money to do, and now that it is spent and the game is made, you want your money back.
I've never seen more misplaced entitlement than I've seen in this campaign's comment section.
Kieren Smith 23 minutes ago
@Strawmancrow it was still never promised in the campaign, if people backed without reading the campaign, or backed based on conversations (not even promises) that were held outside of the kick-starter campaign, they did so at their own peril.
Strawmancrow 38 minutes ago
https://twitter.com/nickmon1112/status/845742405596909568
Ok, this brings the refunds into a whole new light. Again, I don't want one, but Playtonic really shot themselves in the foot. Jontron being in the game happened before the backing period ended, some people backed it because of Jontron.
And again, my earlier point stands. If Playtonic wants to cut ties with Jontron because of his beliefs they cannot play the moralist while taking the money of people who support him. They're not cutting ties if they're taking money from people with a belief, or who support a belief, that Playtonic wants to take a stand against.
The way I see it is this;
Playtonic can refund the money, and prove that they're not simply virtue-signalling by willingly making a sacrifice to back up their beliefs, which is the most respectable thing they can do. Whether or not I agree with their stance doesn't matter, and shouldn't matter, because this option shows they have principles they actually stand for.
Playtonic can restore Jontron's content, which will make them look good AND bad. Bad because it shows they were just trying to virtue signal, but good because it shows they at least understand that they cocked up big time.
Playtonic can keep the money and still cut Jontron's content, making them look like a bunch of greedy opportunists with absolutely no scruples. Basically, become the money-minded business men who they're trying to mock with Capital B.
Adam about 1 hour ago
@David
In no way are they violating our constitutional or legal rights, but there are certain courtesies and guidelines common law democracies have to extend similar freedoms in most locations and situations. It is the reason many retailers offer exchanges or returns instead of telling you to take it up with the producer as a warranty issue and the reason you can say most things on almost any private property.
If they were violating any standard legal rights, people would be pressing charges (granted that would be complicated due to the international nature, although I think in using Kickstarter they would be liable to all American laws). Everything they are doing is technically constitutional, but it is crappy and sketchy and goes against the common values of free societies.
PurpleFyrus about 2 hours ago
@Coleman cmon man, no need for profanity lol
But yeah, for folks who are upset whether it be JonTron or due to the UK's policies on free speech, vote with your dollar!
Charge backs are possible at the moment, and no it's not illegal, not in America anyways.
I'm enjoying these debates here, keep it up! Debate is a good way to communicate over differing view points, just keep it civil and clean though, we all Loved Rareware obviously, so we share that common ground. Good luck fam!
DamnCatOnMyDesk
Superbacker
about 2 hours ago
Hey Playtonic. Just wanted to voice my support for your decision to cut JonTron. It sucks that you've been forced to deal with the consequences of his hubris, but you made the correct decision.
Kieren Smith about 2 hours ago
@Coleman 'Please remember to be respectful and considerate. Thanks!'
Coleman about 3 hours ago
And that other company Playtonic can eat shit too.
Coleman about 3 hours ago
Hi Plyatonic.
I hope you eat shit.
Grant McIntyre about 4 hours ago
I'm not sure how you guys are expecting a refund if you funded the game itself. The game is already made, the money is gone, and unless you can undo months of coding/game creation and somehow get the money out of that, it's already gone. Doesn't matter if you contributed $10 or $100, that's been used up for the game.
I'm just a little confused here.
Also, I am indifferent on the current debacle that has been happening, on an unrelated note. So take my words with however many grains of salt as you want.
David Levy about 4 hours ago
@Ahmenthi:
I find your use of the phrase "private politics" curious, given the very public manner in which JonTron disseminated his controversial comments.
I agree, however, that JonTron's voice work had nothing to do with those statements. But as noted previously, it also had almost nothing to do with the game's story.
Had JonTron played a major role — or even a minor one with non-trivial significance to the plot — it would be easier for Playtonic to justify its retention without fueling an inference that its management endorses his views.
JonTron's participation wasn't based on artistic merit; it was a shout-out to JonTron and his fans — little more than the auditory equivalent of a sign reading "We love JonTron!" It was gesture of appreciation — essentially serving no other purpose — so its continued inclusion could be construed as an affirmation of the company's unwavering support for JonTron and celebration of his involvement in the game's production. Do you understand why that might be problematic? JonTron seems to (and for that, I give him credit).
El Jorge about 4 hours ago
If refunds are allowed (wich I don't think it's possible) I hope further funding is allowed too, as I want to support this game and help make up for this backlash I find greatly exagerated. If not, then I guess I'll get another new copy for a console.
David Levy about 4 hours ago
@Adam:
I agree that deleting unflattering messages and banning the users posting them is a bad idea. But the assertion that your "freedom has been infringed upon" betrays your ignorance of the subject and trivializes the plights of those who've suffered and died in pursuit of free speech.
Unfettered use of a company's website is neither a basic human right nor a constitutional one in any country on Earth. Freedom of speech includes an entitlement to express one's opinions, not guaranteed access to a private forum in which to promulgate them (or any such cooperation on the part of your criticism's target).
Do the actions in question (assuming that they've been described accurately) give disgruntled fans additional grounds for complaint? Absolutely. Are said individuals being deprived of their free speech rights? Absolutely not.
Ahmenthi about 5 hours ago
I messaged Playtonic roughly two days ago through this site and still have not heard back from them.
I will be posting a grievance here, like many others.
JonTron's involvement wasn't known by me until the day they announced he would be removed, but I've reached a point where I'm tired of this political garbage being thrown around in gaming circles. It happened with Razer and Lionhead on Twitter, and with the limerick in Pillars of Eternity. The outrage and threatening people with labels into submission has worn out my last nerve. So I wish to pull my support from this.
Some would argue "Wow, the removal of a small voice role is enough to make you demand a refund? That's petty!" To them, I say this: You were going to paint Playtonic with -isms if they didn't kick him, and all Jon does in this game is make nonsensical sounds. It doesn't bring his politics into it. It's just a voice role.
His removal was made political. This was going to be a fun collect-a-thon game with cartoony animals all over the place, but certain people had to throw a fit over nothing and bring politics into it. And it isn't about what JonTron believes that motivated my decision, it's that he was let go for holding certain private politics in general.
I'm sure your game is fun, Playtonic. I was excited for it. But this removal, and not only that, but also the deep policing of the Steam discussion page to remove this topic is disgusting and unprofessional. That's Might No. 9 levels of poor community management. Virtually any other path you could've taken would've led to a better outcome for you. You should've disregarded all the complaints about Jon being involved, because sensible people are aware that a game is made by multiple kinds of people. Not just in terms of race, gender, nationality, or religion, but also of opinion and political standing. No one position on anything from a member of the development team represents the whole. And Jon was merely a voice actor, which makes this situation even more sad for you.
So, in light of the unprofessional conduct and the injection of politics into this situation, I do not wish to support Yooka-Laylee any longer. I just wanted a fun game without any unnecessary drama. And you almost made it to the finish line in that regard.
In this situation, as it stands, I would like to either have my pledge refunded, or to see the decision to remove him overturned and an apology issued.
Daniel about 5 hours ago
In regards to recent events concerning Jontron and him having a political view beeing the reason he was cut I am going to concider a refund.
A political view point by an individual should never be the reason you fire a man. doesnt matter if you agree with him or not cuting him from the game does however say more about disagrement with his opinion or stance meaning you inadvertantly took a side.
I would like to know if a refund is possible and also know what your stance is on how youve handled this sitation as many others aswell. Have a great day regardles and dont forget to make the game great as I still patiantly await its arrival.
Silas Holloway about 5 hours ago
Hey Playtonic, I want a refund issued. Or a public apology to Jontron. You can e-mail me my dough back, thanks. Shitheads.
Adam about 5 hours ago
Our freedom has been infringed upon on the forums and store pages where they have made it clear they don't want any dissenting opinions. Which yeah, I get. I don't think they realized exactly how unpopular political correctness and censorship are in gaming currently, and didn't want to have things start imploding. So by being out of touch, they do something PC and then go and try to censor us and keep us from disagreeing with it.
The only reason we are communicating here is because Kickstarter doesn't let them silence the things they don't want to hear. This is the only official space those unhappy can go and freely criticize their decisions and express disapproval and frustration without having the discussion locked and being banned.
David Levy about 6 hours ago
@4Delta:
JonTron's freedom of speech remains intact. Condemning his comments and removing his voice recording from the game is an exercise in free speech on the part of Playtonic. Likewise, criticism of Playtonic's decision is an exercise in free speech on the part of those who disagree with it. No one's freedom of speech has been infringed.
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1357/
4Delta about 6 hours ago
I also want a refund!
I dont want to support a company that does not allow free speech!
David Levy about 6 hours ago
@ Brandon Cowsert:
That seems like a fair assessment. Playtonic and affiliated entities had no hope of pleasing everybody, but it appears as though things could have been handled better on their end.
Irrespective of where the blame falls, I think that everyone can agree that the situation is unfortunate all around. JonTron has lost an opportunity that undoubtedly meant a great deal to him, his fans have lost the satisfaction of seeing it play out, some of those looking forward to the game have lost confidence in Playtonic (to one extent or another), Playtonic has lost the aforementioned fans' goodwill, and everyone who wanted/wants the game to succeed has gained a potential source of doubt that it will (which I hope proves unfounded).
Brandon McCrary about 7 hours ago
Has anyone had any luck getting a response from Playtonic about getting a refund or any information at all regarding their decision? If they don't willingly offer a refund, I'm just selling my signed copy of the game anyway.
Brandon Cowsert
Superbacker
about 7 hours ago
@David Levy:
1. Jontron for weeks prior had been in livestreams where he just shoots the breeze with others, usually with Sargon with others joining in. He mistakenly thought that would be the case here but was cornered. When Destiny found himself in an actual debate with someone who is prepared he himself got wrecked thoroughly. Moreover, Destiny has also has some, how should we say, controversial stances of his own. These points are usually not brought up. And yes, Youtube Red, thank you for catching that. I stand corrected.
2. All sides of the issue should be examined. Personally it looks like it's yet another case of something being blown way out of proportion, which is what we see too much of nowadays with inflamed passions. Taking a few steps back would indeed allow one to see the bigger picture. I'm still backing it, but feel that the situation could have been managed a little better.
3. Now, my personal assessment is this: JonTron is a Superfan of the Banjo Kazooie style games and Rareware in general. He gave free advertising and was ecstatic being cast in a spiritual successor, so much so that he volunteered to voice on his own time and dime. What Playtonic did to him, possibly their biggest fan, didn't sit well with lesser fans and they voiced their discontent. They were effectively banned and silenced in a series of questionable PR moves. After the snafu with Mass Effect Andromeda, companies should perhaps remain neutral and avoid pandering, agitation, and censorship on social media as much as possible. Or in the case of Nioh, you can engage the community, build a positive relationship, and improve the game based on input and debut it to healthy sales. Again, this is only my opinion.
David Levy about 8 hours ago
@Brandon Cowsert:
1. You mean YouTube Red. (RedTube is something very different and very NSFW.)
2. I don't know whether JonTron was tricked into debating. It wouldn't surprise me, as he obviously wasn't adequately prepared (as he's stated himself).
I do know that Destiny wasn't Gish Galloping. Frankly, he didn't need to. It wasn't so much a victory on his part as it was a self-inflicted defeat on the part of JonTron. A debate coach could literally use JonTron's performance to compile a "mistakes to avoid" checklist. He just kept digging himself deeper and deeper. Essentially, Destiny handed him a shovel and pointed him to the dirt. JonTron took care of the rest.
I should note that I'd never heard of Destiny before this incident. For all I know, he had all sorts of underhanded tactics planned. I got the impression that he was astonished by his opponent's ineptitude and realized in the moment that JonTron was his own worst enemy.
Does this mean that JonTron is a racist? No. He might just be a terrible debater. (He's described himself as such, so that much is uncontested.)
Did JonTron's comments sound racist? Yes, to many people (myself included). There's no question that he was flustered, so perhaps his words came out differently than he intended. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it isn't my video game whose reputation is at stake. I don't believe that Playtonic owes him this courtesy, and it doesn't appear that JonTron does either. He's disappointed in their decision, but he understands why they made it and doesn't want to see the game fail.
Amid the binary argument of whether JonTron is a bad person for the things he said or Playtonic is bad for removing his cameo from the game, I propose a third possibility: JonTron isn't a bad person, but he made a bad mistake, resulting in a bad situation for everyone involved. Maybe Playtonic (and/or affiliated entities) reacted badly too, but let's try to see the big picture.
RetroArcade about 8 hours ago
I really wish we could have the option of choosing a physical copy for the Nintendo switch instead of the other consoles, and just wait for its release. Nothing against a PS4 or XBONE, but id rather have a game inspired by classic nintendo titles, on a nintendo console. Id be happy to wait for its release over getting it for a system I cant play it on.
Jonathan Sampson about 8 hours ago
@anon you seriously think they insulted the backers by removing him? Seriously? You didn't even know he was going to be involved when you backed. Really, if anyone should be giving an apology, it should be Jontron (not sure if he did).
Matt Lang about 9 hours ago
Anyways, I'm super pumped for this game. Can we change our order from Steam to the Nintendo Switch release? I would love to have this on mobile!
Matt Lang about 9 hours ago
Jontron wasn't involved with the project during the campaign at all. He was brought in after as a voice.
The company has the right to choose to cancel his involvement if they choose, and the backers who are complaining have no standing unless Playtonic chooses to allow them to refund out of their own generosity since they're complaining about something that was never part of the original funding agreement.
David Levy about 9 hours ago
@Elvis Prime:
Understood. I don't mean to imply that a chargeback isn't a legitimate option for backers who sincerely believe that it's the proper course of action. I just want to ensure that they're able to make an informed decision (with a full understanding of the process and its potential drawbacks).
In particular, it's important to stress that "going through for the moment" means very little, as this is virtually assured in all but the most frivolous cases (i.e., those in which a complaint would be invalid even if the details provided by the account holder were entirely accurate and uncontested — e.g., "I can't afford to pay this" or "I need the money for something else").
In other words, the mere assertion of an actual breach of contract (to which the merchant has not yet had an opportunity to respond) is sufficient grounds for a tentative chargeback, despite the possibility that it's partially or entirely false.
I also want to stress that a chargeback's purpose is not to undo a purchase that the customer simply regrets making (regardless of justification). Apart from very specific circumstances inapplicable to this case, buyer's remorse doesn't negate a legally binding agreement, even if it stems from disappointing behavior on the part of the seller — provided that the fundamental terms were upheld.
In this instance, backers should ask themselves whether Playtonic materially misrepresented the transaction's nature or otherwise failed to fulfill its contractual obligations. Had JonTron's participation been advertised or some other relevant promise (e.g., "We'll never remove content from the game.) been made during the Kickstarter campaign, I would see the basis for such a claim.
Conversely, I'm reading statements to the effect of "The people at Playtonic are acting like a bunch of jerks. I find their conduct reprehensible and no longer wish to support them."
To be clear, I'm not here to debate the validity of those sentiments. People are entitled to disapprove of Playtonic's handling of the situation and express this opinion publicly. My point is that such dissatisfaction does not necessarily carry a legal remedy. Typically, the available recourse is to warn others and refrain from doing business with the company in the future.
Brandon Cowsert
Superbacker
about 9 hours ago
Glad I backed this so I can post. I'll try and be 'respectful and considerate' something that Team 17 and this game's developer's have not afforded its customers. Here are the facts:
1. A few weeks ago the Wall Street Journal took out of context statements and skits PewDiePie made on his youtube channel making it seem like he was a Pro-white nationalist costing him his redtube series and losing a lucrative partnership with Disney.
2. Jontron was tricked into debating another youtuber named Destiny who used a fallacious technique called a gish gallop to declare himself the winner. What wasn't mentioned was Destiny getting stomped by seasoned debater Sargon of Akkad afterward as well as Destiny's own troubling viewpoints brought up in a naked ape youtube video.
3. Like with PewDiePie, a "journalist" along with neogafer's brought Jontron's 'Nationalist' sentiment to light thus having him dropped from the game. Despite JT being free advertising.
4. Dissent of all forms was purged, refund requests were denied and mocked by a blue-haired ban-hammer mod on Steam who works for Team 17. Only fawning adulation remains on reddit
and steam subforums.
5. tl;dr version: virtue signalling allowed, they can critique, others cannot, and they keep KS money UNLESS...
6. Chargebacks are working currently. It takes money directly from them, and is not illegal as some drones attest to on these forums. However, you might get banned from KS.
Elvis Prime about 9 hours ago
@Dean Jones
Okay, sure. Not recommending people do or don't do it. Just be aware.
Also, discriminating based on political opinion is also a thing protected in UK. Very muddy, and my understanding of UK law is limited. Especially considering that regardless, JonTron was probably paid for the job, and the inclusion of his content is not a guarantee. Though I think that hardly matters to those who want to chargeback. \_(o.O)_/
El Jorge about 9 hours ago
I've seen people demand refunds claiming that they supposedly backed the project solely because of Jontron's involvement, even thought said involvement was revealed only after the funding had ended. This whole backlash is sounding more and more like a fraud.
Dean Jones about 10 hours ago
@Elvis Prime Just keep in mind that these chargbacks people are doing are illegal and is fraud.
Elvis Prime about 10 hours ago
@David Levy
Okay. Sure. I don't dispute that chargebacks may or may not be permanent. But they are going through for the moment. It's an option many want to take. Whether or not it even will work, it is something worth knowing either way. This, in effect can be effective action by many. By virtue of credit card and banking institutions getting various chargebacks for the same sources, this could cause much attention. Frankly, that may be desired by all. Playtonics isn't listening and being jerks about things, I'm sure they may be whistling a different toon when kickstarter knocks on their door and says "WTF!?!". Nothing speaks louder than money. Perception from those i personally know who have done chargebacks, they did it in large part due to the fact that Playtonics blatant disrespect of backers thus far, is in part due to the fact they feel they "Already have their money", and thus don't give a damn about slapping them in the face. Chargebacks one way or another, is not going to be taken lightly by many people involved. Perhaps it's the jolt the system needs to wake up. This can damage potentially everyone involved. I do mean everyone, backers included.
Alexander about 10 hours ago
I wonder how Kickstarter feels about Playtonic causing them all this trouble
David Levy about 11 hours ago
@Elvis Prime:
Again, it's standard operating procedure for a credit card issuer to perform a chargeback when an account holder files a plausible claim that a merchant failed to deliver a product or service as promised.
At the initial stage, it's a temporary measure intended to err on the side of the customer, thereby shielding him/her from a potentially injurious monetary expense and/or credit rating impact. It does does not indicate that the dispute has been decided in his/her favor. It merely means that the complaint isn't obviously invalid (based solely upon as-yet unanswered assertions).
The next step is to contact the merchant for a response, after which the evidence provided by both parties will be considered and a final determination will be made (at which point the chargeback will be upheld or reversed).
In other words, this isn't a simple matter of weighing the refund's value against the potential revocation of one's Kickstarter account. There's no guarantee that the chargeback will stand, so it's possible to be given the boot by Kickstarter and still end up paying the amount pledged.
Elvis Prime about 11 hours ago
Chargebacks are working. Just note to people doing chargebacks, that this may well break TOS for Kickstarter, and you may be removed from KS.
I have a few friends that have done the chargebacks already. I have not decided yet myself. I'm terribly disappointed in Playtonics on all this. Even if I maintain my donation, I think i'm done with Playtonics. A lot hinges on how they handle things. So far, they've handled things absolutely terribly. Taking a political stance was a terrible business decision on their part.
Josh Rushing about 11 hours ago
I just wish Switch were getting a physical version. I want a terrible tasting version of Yooka Laylee and blu ray discs just can't taste terrible. Can't even get them in your mouth really.
Patrick about 12 hours ago
Maybe they are working hard on patching out all the names of those seeking refunds/chargebacks from the credits? That would explain why they aren't communicating via email and just censoring people on their main forums and steam forums.
El Jorge about 12 hours ago
Personally I would love to pledge more than I originally did. All the physical rewards are probably done by now though. Still it would be nice to show I'm still supporting them in these noisy times.
David Levy about 12 hours ago
@Eric Wallace
It's standard operating procedure for a credit card issuer to grant a chargeback when an account holder reports that a product or service owed to him/her was not delivered as promised. This is tentative and subject to reversal at a later date (following a merchant inquiry and examination of evidence supplied by both parties).
At this stage, any account credit issued reflects nothing beyond a determination that the client's claims are sufficiently credible to investigate (i.e., not obviously invalid); it doesn't mean that the dispute has been decided in his/her favor.
Aerokii about 12 hours ago
@Ryan My money's on temporary success. Kickstarter does investigate each charge back dispute, and people are leaving all sorts of evidence here in the comments. They'll get the money back- but only for a short while.
Calamity C about 12 hours ago
@Eric Wallace
Thank you so much for letting us know.
This company does not deserve our money.
Calamity C about 12 hours ago
@Eric Wallace
Thank you so much for letting us know.
This company does not deserve our money.
Eric Wallace about 12 hours ago
To everyone wondering, charge backs are working.
Ryan Tyrrell about 13 hours ago
Eh, I was more here to voice my frustration at the disrespect shown anyway. Have my own opinions on the statement as that's clear but I don't blame them for doing it. Just for being assholes afterwards.
I don't know if people charging back will be successful either. I'm not one of them.
Aerokii about 13 hours ago
@Ryan Again, no one here is saying you can't react to it. Plus no one here is actually getting blocked/banned- the only "silencing" I've heard of from anyone else is people asking for refunds on the steam forums- y'know, the exact wrong place to request something like that.
While also on the subject of refunds and chargebacks... how well do you think it's going to turn out for you people doing chargebacks? You spent the money back in 2015, Playtonic already spent that money on development, and you're going to get the promised product (Except in the case of Wii U, but anyone who wanted a refund for that already had their chance.) Do you really think it's going to work out in your favor, or that Playtonic won't fight it?
Kieren Smith about 13 hours ago
@Ryan and in doing so maintained their position as a family friendly, all-inclusive company. Sure, they may have annoyed people who have differing political opinions, but I'd rather offend someone over politics than race. In the end of the day, if I say to you "I don't agree with your stance on this." We've disagreed over an intellectual issue, if I say "I don't agree with you because of your race/gender" what I've done is not disagree with you over an intellectual issue, but over something that you can not change about yourself.
Ryan Tyrrell about 14 hours ago
@Kieren Sure, they're free to have their own personal opinion, and they were free to publish that statement and free to remove to Jon. But people are free to react to all of it, until they get squashed wherever Playtonic or T17 have editorial control for having the wrong opinion, and laughed at by the same people. So they've given ammo to the fringe, alienated backers, pissed off the free speech people, and the sort of people who want this stuff don't even care. That's where I was going
Kieren Smith about 14 hours ago
@Ryan if the so called 'vocal minority' are the majority within their company than they have the right to take their company in whatever direction they want to. I love that you keep using words like 'surrendered' and 'pandering' as if you can't comprehend the possibility that they themselves, actively disagreed with what Jon said, and decided they didn't want his views represented in their game.