上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 218

[–]Marcelin88 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Absol should be at least A-Rank... oh, wait.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cries in the corner with Togekiss...

[–]gasmasquerade 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I love the absol fan club that has been outraged by this last update. I've never felt such solidarity until now

[–]LoudCommentor 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What happened? Lack of RML?

[–]gasmasquerade 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes. We are v mad. Absol deserves greatness. In the main games it is an unbelievably good sweeper with a killer attack stat, high crit ability, high-damage and high-crit moves PLUS can learn swords dance. Also, it's completely misunderstood and hated because it shows up to warn of disaster but people accuse it of causing disaster. It deserves greatness. It's too good for this world. We are unworthy.

[–]Inequilibrium 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It has to at least get 3 RMLs at some point, right? Like a bunch of other megas did? I hate that it keeps getting ignored, since it would also be an awesome candidate for a PSB stage.

[–]FajenThygia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Togekiss is right there too.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (19子コメント)

TL;DR

The ranks of all the new Pokemon in this batch, as well as those that got an increase in RML intake:

  • S-Rank: None

  • A-Rank (Damage): Virizion

  • A-Rank (Utility): Dialga, Palkia

  • B-Rank (Damage): Vanillish, Skarmory, Beedrill, Pikachu (Angry), Gulpin, Muk, Sceptile, Wailord, Carnivine

  • B-Rank (Utility): Snorunt, Bellossom, Jirachi, Abomasnow, Pikachu (Sleeping)

  • C-Rank (Damage): Cobalion, Toxicroak, Croagunk, Gyarados (Shiny), Avalugg, Terrakion, Honedge, Swampert

  • C-Rank (Utility): Trubbish, Pikachu (Enamored), Pikachu (Spooky), Cradily

  • D-Rank: Pikachu (Happy), Pikachu (Smiling), Pikachu (Holiday)

  • F-Rank: Aegislash, Armaldo, Chesnaught, Doublade, Gyarados, Klefki, Kyurem, Magikarp, Nidoran (Female), Nidoran (Male), Pikachu (Normal), Pikachu (Winking), Seviper, Tropius, Vaporeon

Note that this list is still very volatile and many changes can be made in the next few days. You can find all the changes that have been made to the list in the changelog.

If you have a change in mind, make sure to leave a comment! :)

[–]13XcrossPRAISE IT! [3DS] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (13子コメント)

I feel like Sceptile could be brought to A-rank.

It's true, +9 AP might seem like a small buff, but it adds up explosively during combos. Just think about what M-Sceptile's ability does: turning other Grass-type pokémon into itself, which means that every match is going to do +18 damage multiplied by the bonus from the number of matching icons and the bonus from the number of matches.

Its viability is obviously limited, but I think that it's really worth it.

[–]AGordo 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

If it was just Sceptile that got the RML boost I would have agreed with you. However, since Virizion and Bellossom also got boosts (and even better boosts!) I don't think I'm going to invest in Sceptile.

By your same logic, if Virizion and Bellossom are both boosted, then Sceptile is taking away 22 base damage per replacement. For the same reason that Swampert isn't as high because there are much stronger water types, I think Sceptile shouldn't move up to A rank. It's also a reason why Mewtwo is so highly ranked, because among other things, MMX is a replacement mega with a huge opportunity for damage output.

Obviously if you choose not to invest in either Virizion or Bellossom (which I think you should), then Sceptile is a good choice.

[–]13XcrossPRAISE IT! [3DS] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (10子コメント)

In fact I'm not going to give my Bellossom any RML: It's just a utility pokémon with an ability that has no synergy with the amount of damage it deals.

On the other hand, M-Sceptile is definitely going to deal way more damage with a smaller investment.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

That's my opinion exactly. I didn't RML Bellossom because I use Greninja and there's no room for Bellossom against Rock and Ground, and against Water I'll use M-Sceptile, who got 3 RMLs

[–]AGordo 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Do you use M-Swampert when you use Greninja? Honestly curious, because I've used M-Sceptile and all grass teams quite a lot up until this point, but with these new RMLs, I may not use M-Sceptile anymore. For the same reason I don't use M-Swampert: the support pokemon is much stronger.

So if you do use M-Swampert, then I get that you'd want to use M-Sceptile. But if not, I'm curious why M-Sceptile is a priority.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Mega Sceptile is not a priority, I RMLed Swampert the second I saw that it got RML options. But I do use both teams, the combo potential is great. I use Sceptile+Bellossom+Shaymin a lot, so really only Sceptile brings the power while the latter two just have to activate. And I'll use Swampert even more once I get Wailord up and running. I wouldn't go saying that those 2 Megas are OP, but Swampert is my favorite starter so what I did was more of a subjective action.

[–]AGordo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I totally get where you're coming from. Especially if Swampert is your favourite starter. I mean, the point of this game is to have fun, right? :) And I definitely think that if you're going to be using these two megas, then obviously the AP boost is a must!

I guess the point that I was trying to make is that I don't know how much more I'm going to use these megas anymore. Which sucks, because M-Sceptile+Bellossom+Shaymin+Virizion has been a staple for me for a very long time. And who knows, maybe I'll stick with it, but I think I might go more for utilizing the high AP of my (now RMLed) support. It's the same reason why I'm leaning more and more towards candying Shiny Gyarados for my all water team (just sitting on my MSUs until the next shiny is released first).

That all being said, I love my MMX. Fully RMLed, fully candied, everything. I spent all of last week farming Zoroark and am really enjoying my MMX. 130 AP board wipes with pummel hit HARD.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, it's not that hard to realize that I prioritize the Pokemon I love over "must-have" Pokemon if you've heard about my perfect Sableye :D

Idk, it's nice to use them to S-rank some stages and whatnot. I also use them for every elemental (Fire/Water/Grass) Special stage that comes and I love it. All of them are fully sped-up and will be at 99 AP soon (except for Blaziken)

[–]AGordo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haha you have an affinity for Sableye? Never noticed ;)

Yeah I totally get you. Especially if they're already sped up and invested in, having 99 AP is a definite upgrade.

[–]AGordo 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's just a utility pokémon with an ability that has no synergy with the amount of damage it deals.

I understand your opinion, but can't that then be said for any utility pokemon? Is it safe to assume you haven't RMLed Greninja either?

And if you're not going to RML Virizion, then I could understand how a small investment into M-Sceptile would definitely increase the damage output of an all grass team. That is also assuming that you are forgoing the damage output of an RMLed Raikou and Emolga, and Zekrom.

[–]13XcrossPRAISE IT! [3DS] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think I'm bound to RML Virizion: giving a sl5 Po4+ pokémon 20 more AP means that it's going to deal 270 bonus damage every time its ability procs. Even in a M-Sceptile team, I'm going to start my combos with Virizion every time I can, so that power boost won't go to waste.

I think it's this is the most efficient strategy to maximize damage (which is what RML are about).

[–]IranianGeniusItemless Pidgey run through: Stage 25 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I never use Sceptile, and I 100% agree with what you're saying. For those who use Sceptile, this damage boost is huge. I prefer using amphy and other megas since I personally have had more luck with them (read: I suck at sceptile type megas), but I see tons of people who use sceptile well, even before it got RMLs. I think it's very worthy of A ranking.

I probably won't invest in it for a while personally since I suck at it.

[–]EkintNever enough hearts 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with you. Shaymin normally takes the utility spot in my grass teams anyway.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Was gonna reply to this but got caught up with the other posts.

I'm open to rising Sceptile, but I'm not sure if what it brings to all-Grass teams is comparable to what, say, Zoroark brings to all-Dark teams or what Charizard brings to all-Fire teams. I think it's more comparable to what Vanillish and Pidgeotto bring to their respective types, which is why they're in high B. Doesn't help that unlike all the other examples, Sceptile is only effective as a mega, which in itself has a lot of competition.

But please add more points! I recognize the value of a M-Sceptile board wipe boosted by Sleep Charm and potentially Sleep Combo.

[–]Zaazaa0 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'd actually put Wailord above Keldeo right now, since Keldeo needs a Skill Swapper while Wailord does not. The fact that Keldeo is PSB-farmable doesn't matter that much to people who haven't invested in either because it isn't PSB-farmable right this second.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And after all, Wailord will have more AP with the same investments minus the SS, so it's pretty obvious

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good point! Will switch their places in the next edit.

[–]RedditShuffle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I don't regret my lvl 15 SL5 FM Keldeo, but it sucks a bit that they put an identical pokemon that gets higher damage and doesn't need SS just a couple of months later. But having 2 FM simultaneously can't hurt!

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Jirachi

Would be ranked higher if there were better Steel-type megas.

I don't get this one. The number of Steel Megas is too damn high (Mega Aggron incoming) and they're all so slow. And sure helps a lot with Mega Steelix! I think that 20 extra AP on Jirachi would be better than 15 extra AP on Dialga, because you get both OP Pokemon with 100+ AP. I use Jirachi a lot to S-rank stages and for Diance EB. If someone benefits from MB+ it's Jirachi hands down. So Dialga is B and Jirachi gets stuck at the bottom of D? I think the Dialga-Palkia duo is overhyped and Jirachi underrated

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Good point with Jirachi synergizing well with M-Steelix. It reminds me of the M-Alakazam + Unown-! combo that was useful in some stages. Unless someone disagrees, I'll rank it up to C-Rank above Cubone.

And can you expound more on why Dialga and Palkia shouldn't be ranked higher?

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Okay then, hear me out. If I were to use a Steel Mega I'd use Jirachi, and with FM Steelix Steel might become a thing now. And who know what Aggron will bring to the table. Srsly Jirachi is the strongest MB+ user without RMLs and with RMLs, and the user that boosts the most mons (not counting Zydog). And now Shiny Metagross is in the new sprite gallery, so we'll see if we get a 5th Steel Mega. Secondly, my Steel team would most likely consist of a Steel Mega, Jirachi and Dialga. And I'd rather have a 110+100 AP package than a 90+115 one, makes sense right? I'd put Jirachi in B at least, it's definitely better than Zapdos (why is that even there?), Flareon and Umbreon. C is still to low for Jirachi, Cubone helps only 2 Megas with 85 AP (no).

Now let's talk about Dialga and Palkia. As I've said before, Yveltal should not be S-rank, and I stand by it, but most people have done it so I'm almost alone on the matter. But at least Yveltal benefits from Sinister Power, and it's the only thing that it has going for it. Dialga doesn't have a Steel-combo-multiplyer partner to make its AP matter (100 is already big enough imo), and it doesn't even have an Ability that benefits from its AP (same arguments we had from Bellossom and therefore dropping it) so it's perfectly fine being a 100 AP monster. Palkia is in a similar situation, all the things I said for Dialga + the fact that Swampert got a buff, and it's still a good Mega with its combo potential (I use those kinds on Megas a lot, idk why people are bitching about them being bad) so Palkia's AP is even more irrelevant. I'd rather have 110 Wailord and a 100 Palkia than a 90 AP Wailord and a 115 Palkia (similar with the Jirachi-Dialga duo).

And to sum up, boosting (Yveltal,) Dialga and Palkia from 100 to 115 is almost the same as boosting Genesect from 100 to 115, the one and only regret of my Shuffle life, such a dumb move

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Jirachi: I don't think I should base its rising on speculation. Sure, M-Aggron and M-Shiny Metagross could be as godly as M-Ray or M-Ttar, but they could also be M-Audino clones. And the Steel megas have their niches but, let's be honest, they're not that great. M-Steelix fulfills a very specific niche on very specific stages, M-Mawile is good in the early-game but struggles with the advent of new megas, and M-Metagross is M-Metagross. Yes, I did underrank it at D, but I can't see it any higher than high C because of how its a support to niche megas.

Zapdos: I know it was just an aside but I'm okay with bringing Zapdos down, maybe next to Angry Pikachu.

Umbreon and Flareon: Tbh the Eject+ users are a bit of a gray area for me since I recognize how they're useful but I don't know how to compare them to other utility skills. Of the two I'm more keen on keeping Umbreon at low B since it has a unique niche unlike Flareon.

Dialga and Palkia: The lack of a combo-boosting skill that takes advantage of the AP boost was the initial reason why I settled for them being at high B in making the initial list of Version 5. I decided that, yes, they're good utility options, but they're good enough as is. (Like you said, you can also say the same thing about Yveltal, but it has Sinister Power Zoroark and Sleep Charm Darkrai backing it up, and unlike Dialga and Palkia it has a unique niche against Ghost-types, but that's beside the point.)

However, I recognize that they fulfill several specific niches and the RMLs can help in boosting damage output while they fulfill said niches. At 115 AP Dialga ties with Yveltal as the strongest BS+ user, which makes it a very good if not an essential option against Ice-, Rock-, and especially Fairy-type stages that need the support. The same goes for Palkia against Fire-, Rock-, and Ground-type stages.

And just to point it out: The Bellossom arguments were mainly because of the overlaps with Greninja, not because of the irrelevance of the AP boost. I'm not a fan of the latter argument since, even not taking into account how it takes advantage of Shaymin-L's Sleep Charm anyway, it ignores how the AP boost from RMLs is done for different reasons between damage options and utility options. Damage options appreciate the AP boost because of how it boosts the potential of their skills, while utility options appreciate the AP boost because of how they now don't have to sacrifice poor damage output for higher utility.

On a lighter note, thank you for your points! Always a pleasure discussing these things. :)

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Jirachi: I don't think I should base its rising on speculation. Sure, M-Aggron and M-Shiny Metagross could be as godly as M-Ray or M-Ttar, but they could also be M-Audino clones. And the Steel megas have their niches but, let's be honest, they're not that great. M-Steelix fulfills a very specific niche on very specific stages, M-Mawile is good in the early-game but struggles with the advent of new megas, and M-Metagross is M-Metagross. Yes, I did underrank it at D, but I can't see it any higher than high C because of how its a support to niche megas.

Still the best support for Mega Steelix, better than Dialgia who hurts Steelix.

Well looks like I am gonna be the only one with a Lv15 Jirachi. And whether or not other ppl see its potential shouldn't bother me much because everyone has their own choices.

At 115 AP Dialga ties with Yveltal as the strongest BS+ user, which makes it a very good if not an essential option against Ice-, Rock-, and especially Fairy-type stages that need the support. The same goes for Palkia against Fire-, Rock-, and Ground-type stages.

Yeah they do have their niche, but we have other things to deal with block and barrier like tapping megas. Ice-Ttar, Rock-Camerupt, Fairy-Steelix, Fire-Ttar/Camerupt. And Ground? Well no SE Mega, but Mamoswine also has BB+.

And just to point it out: The Bellossom arguments were mainly because of the overlaps with Greninja, not because of the irrelevance of the AP boost. I'm not a fan of the latter argument since, even not taking into account how it takes advantage of Shaymin-L's Sleep Charm anyway, it ignores how the AP boost from RMLs is done for different reasons between damage options and utility options. Damage options appreciate the AP boost because of how it boosts the potential of their skills, while utility options appreciate the AP boost because of how they now don't have to sacrifice poor damage output for higher utility.

I said that one of the arguments was that one. I get the other points. Because it hurts to put a 90 AP mon on a team these days, with everything else being 100+ and whatnot, but Dialga and Palkia already have 100.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Well looks like I am gonna be the only one with a Lv15 Jirachi. And whether or not other ppl see its potential shouldn't bother me much because everyone has their own choices.

No shame in investing in Jirachi at all! Jirachi is up there in my top 10 favorite Pokemon ever, maybe even top 5, and if I had the extra RMLs I'd invest in it in a heartbeat. (To be fair I've already done the same thing to Swampert because I promised myself I would invest in it no matter what so ahaha.)

Yeah they do have their niche, but we have other things to deal with block and barrier like tapping megas.

Okay, I'm really glad you brought up the tapping megas because I was actually thinking about how they affect the viability of BS+ / BB+ mons overall. You outlined it pretty well versus Dialga and Palkia, but all three of them overlap with all the S-Rank and A-Rank utility options as well. Someone brought this up in 4.1 and I didn't really have a definitive answer other than all of them being less "available" than the S-Rank utility options (Ttar is an end-game mega while Bee and Camel are event-exclusive).

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

(To be fair I've already done the same thing to Swampert because I promised myself I would invest in it no matter what so ahaha.)

Haha I did that too, asap! Favorite starter gets all my love :D

No shame in investing in Jirachi at all! Jirachi is up there in my top 10 favorite Pokemon ever, maybe even top 5, and if I had the extra RMLs I'd invest in it in a heartbeat.

Duuude, favorite Pokemon should come first, then the "must-haves".

"Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites."

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

But 115 AP ice cream cone + 105 AP shivering helmet!!!

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Already on that path as well. But I did my favorites first!

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think it's time to boost Jirachi to tier A. Mega Aggron is too good with Jirachi. Now Jirachi benefits 4 Megas, Steelix and Aggron are gonna be used a lot

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I will rank it up to low B but I can't really see any justification for A considering what's on there right now.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well at least above Sleeping Pikachu ;)

[–]RedditShuffle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll also get a lvl 15 Jirachi sooner than later

[–]BlackTiphoonLike Gliscor, but greener. [mobile] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I'm not sure I'm understanding Dialga and Palkia at B rank. They are 2 of the strongest AP Pokemon in the game, and have very useful abilities. They end up in my teams almost every time they are SE, regardless of the disruption. Why wouldn't we want them to have even more AP for a fairly small investment?

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm admittedly not sure about Dialga and Palkia's placement since the AP boost is relatively small, and unlike Yveltal there isn't a combo boosting ability (or two, in the case of Yveltal) backing them up. But I understand why they make a case for being ranked higher since they do cover critical types with their skills.

Would be open to ranking them higher but would like more discussion. Thanks for bringing it up!

[–]artifaxiom 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think what you're facing here is feeling split between two methods of ranking:

  • How much does RMLing benefit this Pokemon?

  • How much am I going to use this Pokemon?

With Palkia/Dialga, the answer to the first question is "not much". The answer to the second is "a lot". You are going to get slight benefit often out of RMLing P/D, and more benefit sometimes from RMLing the alternatives.

[–]BlackTiphoonLike Gliscor, but greener. [mobile] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow thank you for putting what I was thinking into actual words. I could not for the life of me come up with how to express this.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Very good point, and I think this does speak well of investing in Dialga and Palkia. While they may not have as wide of a type coverage as Talonflame or Throh (the disruption clearers in A-Rank), they make up for it with raw power and being essentials in most of the types they're SE against.

Do you think they should be A-Rank?

[–]artifaxiom 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmm, yes, I'd say so. I think they're about on par with Throh and Talonflame, having a bit worse typing but a bit better AP.

[–]IranianGeniusItemless Pidgey run through: Stage 25 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They would be (I think) literally the strongest, or tied for the strongest, Pokemon with their abilities, making them also effective (though not as immensely) in stages that they would otherwise be neutral in. Their abilities are some of the best in the game, and certainly some of the most useful.

Not sure if I would rank A or B personally. Definitely think they're better than Throh (never needed to SS throh yet, but I've used each of Palkia and Dialga a ton). I'll probably invest in them next time I need them for a competition. Low on RML right now.

[–]the_scupper 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I wonder if the advent of BS++ will phase out Dialga's usefulness in the future. We could be in an arms race where BS+ doesn't cut it any longer on upcoming stages.

[–]BlackTiphoonLike Gliscor, but greener. [mobile] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like if it gets to that point, we are better off using M-Steelix.

[–]Bacteriophag 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel the same about Raikou and Suicune but honestly I prefer using then with "+" skills than some 40BP unevolved Pokemon which will get 10 RMLs and SS with "++" variants. At this point it starts to seem like GS gives best SS to weak Pokemon which need a lot of investment while stronger ones stay with Po5 etc.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Changelog

I’ll be putting all of the changes made to the list here, with the most recent one on top.


Edit #4 (02/14/17):

  • Here are where the new additions rank:
  • Cradily: C-Rank
  • Pikachu (Smiling): D-Rank
  • Armaldo: F-Rank
  • Here are all the ranking changes, both across and within ranks:
  • Jirachi: C --> B (We finally got a good Steel mega in M-Aggron so it’s only fitting.)
  • Umbreon: B --> C (So it can be with the other Eject+ options)
  • Flareon: B --> C (So it can be with the other Eject+ options)
  • Lapras: Still High C, but now at the top of C-Rank (Utility) because of its new PSB-farmable stage
  • Cobalion: Mid C --> High C (Now has a PSB-farmable stage, but faces heavy competition from Skarmory and Mawile)
  • Honedge: D --> C (See this thread.)
  • Magikarp: D --> F (Good night, sweet prince.)
  • Also added a note on the descriptions of Vanillish, Croagunk, and Cubone with the presence of new clones. No change in rankings though.

Edit #3 (02/07/17)

  • /u/jameslfc and I held a survey asking people where four Pokemon should rank. The results are in, and the only change that needs to be done is...
  • Moltres: A-Rank --> B-Rank (See this discussion of the survey results.
  • Pikachu (Angry): C-Rank --> B-Rank (This was separate from the survey, but see this thread and this thread on why this change was made.)
  • Added a line on each rank showing who the new Pokemon are in the rank, similar to the SS guide (Thanks, /u/IchigoWen!)
  • Distinguished special stages from competition special stages (if a main stage or expert stage becomes a PSB-farmable special stage for a competition)

Edit #2 (02/02/17)

  • Dialga: B-Rank --> A-Rank (See this thread.)
  • Palkia: B-Rank --> A-Rank (See this thread.)
  • Bellossom: A-Rank --> B-Rank (Lots of discussion on this, but see this thread and this thread.)
  • Zapdos: B-Rank --> C-Rank (Much more competition than before. If only it got a PSB-farmable stage...)
  • Jirachi: D-Rank --> C-Rank (See this thread.)
  • /u/jameslfc and I have decided to put some Pokemon up for a survey on where they would rank. This involves Pokemon mainly in S-Rank and A-Rank. Watch out for it!

Edit #1 (02/02/17)

  • Bellossom moved from high A to low A (Quite a lot of discussion on it being moved down to B but also some resistance, so I've put it there for now. Has a high chance of moving again in the next edit though.)
  • Abomasnow: C-Rank --> B-Rank (See this thread.)
  • Carnivine: C-Rank --> B-Rank (See this thread.)
  • Ranked Wailord above Keldeo-O (See this thread.)
  • Ranked Toxicroak above Croagunk (See this thread.)

Edit #0 (02/01/17)

  • Transition from Version 4.1 to Version 5

  • Added all new Pokemon that can now take RMLs, including Wailord and Pikachu (Enamored)

  • Here are all the ranking changes of old Pokemon from Version 4.1:

  • Kabutops: B-Rank --> C-Rank

  • Rampardos: B-Rank --> C-Rank

  • Blastoise: C-Rank --> D-Rank

  • Rotom (Normal): D-Rank --> F-Rank

[–]ryeyunIn a shuffle-induced coma 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I concede that Magikarp is D tier or possibly lower in this tier list, but I don't think anyone can refute it being an SS tier profile image. Any disagreements, fight me.

The big takeaway from this update is that Steel, Poison, and Ice types have gotten considerably stronger. All three share type coverage with Fire, so my natural inclination is to say that Charizard, Moltres, and Emboar all take a hit in the ranks.

Flying and Poison teams seem better than mono Fire teams for max dmg vs Bug or Grass types with little/no disruptions. Ice teams are now arguably better against disruption heavy Grass stages. Maxed MMX > M-Blaze against Ice and Steel types. And lastly, if burst damage was needed against Ice typing, it makes more sense to bring Machamp, Skarmory, Mawile, or Honedge instead of Emboar/Moltres (assuming all are maxed).

Fire still has great type coverage, which makes those two great RML candidates for Survival Mode farming. For me Emboar is high A-tier. It requires lower investment than Moltres and is more helpful for difficult stages where you need to make 3-matches.

I see Moltres as being the better option for Burn+Pyre teams while also providing more consistent burst damage on 4-matches. But Burn+Pyre teams aren't as dominant as they used to be. For that reason I think Zard and Moltres should fall to low-A/high B-tier.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I concede that Magikarp is D tier or possibly lower in this tier list, but I don't think anyone can refute it being an SS tier profile image. Any disagreements, fight me.

I would make this grounds for rising it to B-Rank tbh

Charizard: The argument against all-Fire teams has merit, yes, but I think you're downplaying the type a bit. Flying may beat it combo-wise but Sky Blast is harder to consistently activate than Pyre and Burn. Poison is strictly better than Burn but it lacks the team support to make the most out of it, mainly because Fire at least has Talonflame and Reshiram. As for Ice, they only overlap in one type, so there's nothing stopping you in investing in both kinds of teams seeing as that having an all-Fire and all-Ice team takes care of seven types.

I'm okay with moving Charizard from high A to mid or low A, but I don't think the added competition to Fire-types should discredit just how useful and unique Charizard's niche is.

As for Emboar and Moltres: /u/jameslfc and I have decided to do what /u/Sorawing7 did in the SS guide and put it to a vote, along with a few other proposed changes in the higher ranks. Watch out for it! :)

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Hi! So /u/jameslfc and I held a survey asking where to rank four Pokemon. Before getting to the results, we’d like to thank the 60 users who participated in the survey! The turnout was great, and we’re definitely interested in holding more of these surveys in the future!

And now…

Survey results

Emboar: Keep in S-Rank

S-Rank: 80% / A-Rank: 20% / B-Rank: 0%

  • Easily the most lopsided choice. Four out of five respondents wanted Emboar to remain in S-Rank.
  • Many pointed out how it was an easy and cheap investment, both RML-wise and skill-wise (both in general and compared to Moltres).
  • A lot of people also highlighted its use in Survival Mode.
  • Those who wanted it to drop pointed out how Machamp is a much better investment.
  • Some also said it faces competition from other Fire-types.

Moltres: Drop to B-Rank

S-Rank: 1.7% / A-Rank: 45.0% / B-Rank: 53.3%

  • Respondents favored B-Rank overwhelmingly at first, but in the latter hours more and more voted in favor of keeping Moltres in A-Rank. In the end, B-Rank won by only a few votes.
  • Almost all respondents who voted to drop Moltres compared it to Emboar and pointed out the heavier investment needed both RML-wise and skill-wise.
  • Some users also pointed out the fact that Moltres’ PSB-farmable stage won’t return as a reason for its drop.
  • Similar to Emboar, some users also said it faces competition from other Fire-types.
  • Interestingly, those in favor of keeping it in A-Rank had the same reasoning as those who wanted it to drop (the heavy investment argument), but felt A-Rank was a better fit for it.
  • Those who voted S-Rank preferred Po4 over RT.

Sceptile: Keep in B-Rank

S-Rank: 0% / A-Rank: 43.3% / B-Rank: 56.7%

  • Unlike Moltres, this remained a close battle all throughout the survey. But in the end, the gap between those who wanted Sceptile to remain in B-Rank and those who wanted it to rise was larger than the gap in Moltres’ survey.
  • A lot of those who wanted it to stay in B-Rank weren’t fans of its mega effect and said that M-Sceptile wasn’t used that much.
  • Respondents also pointed out how it only received a marginal increase in AP
  • Some users also pointed out the limited availability of Sceptile’s mega stone
  • Those who wanted Sceptile to rise pointed out how its mega effect benefits a lot from the AP boost
  • Some also highlighted its use in all-Grass teams

Articuno: Keep in A-Rank

S-Rank: 13.3% / A-Rank: 73.3% / B-Rank: 13.3%

  • Interestingly, Articuno got support both for rising to S-Rank and dropping to B-Rank. But all throughout the survey, keeping it in A-Rank was the more popular choice.
  • Those who wanted Articuno to remain in A-Rank highlighted its similarities to Moltres but then said that its lack of competition from other Ice-types gives it an edge.
  • Those who wanted Articuno to rise to S-Rank pointed to the boost to Ice-types in general and how Articuno gels well with them.
  • Those who wanted Articuno to drop to B-Rank also compared it to Moltres, but then focused on how its PSB-farmable stage won’t be coming back.

Other insights

  • There should’ve been an additional question asking people which Pokemon they wanted to survey next. Lesson learned.
  • On that note, there were a number of respondents questioning the drop of Bellossom, so I will definitely include it in the next survey, whenever that would be. There were other Pokemon that were pointed out but Bellossom was the only one that was mentioned more than once across responses.
  • I am personally surprised by people pointing out how Moltres’s and Articuno’s PSB-farmable stage won’t be coming back — even though this isn’t necessarily guaranteed. I mean, aside from Mewtwo’s stage repeating, it’s hard to rely on the devs’ patterns when they have been continuously breaking them (see: Zapdos).
  • However, to recognize this, I will be editing the “PSB farming” column of these Pokemon to point out if they are a Competition special stage, or a main/expert-turned-special-stage for a competition.
  • There were other suggestions as well, and I’ll be replying to the users personally when I find the time.
  • And lastly, thank you to all who sent kind words. They are truly appreciated. :)

[–]jameslfcMobile | 0 RML Mesprit Club FTW! 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think you should post this on weekly chat :))

Ppl will be happy to hear the results!

[–]Eleve28|NL| World League Shuffler 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting results, thanks for starting this survey and sharing it. This really helps the community! Looking forward to future polls, this really helps me think about my choices and priorities for RML and SS.

[–]13XcrossPRAISE IT! [3DS] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Woops, I think I missed the survey...

Well, I don't think that 1 vote would have changed the results: I agree with everything, except Moltres and Sceptile.

[–]james2c19v 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Great work man. I'm still clearly in the minority, lol, but that's fine. I think it makes a lot of sense to spell out the PSB farmability in the guide.

I shall await the day of my vindication. I'm patient.

[–]kappaa1234 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It couldve been F-rank and Id still RML angry pikachu first. 15X multiplier is too hilarious

[–]KinGod73 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Is it possible that Bellossom should be taken down to B? Grass is good for Rock, Ground and Water, and the first two are covered for Mind Zap by Greninja, who also has a PSB special stage and a larger AP with more RML investment. I know it's useful for this competition but it's possible to get in the top bracket without training either Bellossom or Virizion (Though I'm boosting Virizion).

[–]Zaazaa0 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I haven't used Bellossom much myself, but I hear people praising it all the time, and that's before it got RMLs. From what I understand, the reasoning is that Bellossom's Mind Zap can extend the length of Shaymin's Sleep Charm, which sounds extremely good, especially since both of them are grass-type and thus are good choices for M-Sceptile teams, which is important because Sceptile is one of the best megas for handling Water types, with the only other real options being Ampharos and neutral megas.

[–]LioAlanMessiManchester United 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think you hit the nail, the combination of Mind Zap and Sleep Charm is awesome, and it works extremely well with Sceptile. I use it all the time and I never trained Greninja.

[–]KinGod73 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Agree with both of you actually, hadn't considered that, scratch my suggestion, it should be A and I ought to buff it.

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You were completely right in your original comment, if you invested in Greninja, then investing in Bellossom will do you little good.

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's A if you didn't skill level Greninja but did skill level Bellossom, but Greninja outclasses it against both Rock and Ground.

Assuming a "clear status", there is no way that Bellossom is A rank, though.

[–]ryeyunIn a shuffle-induced coma 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

For me the real question is do you use M-Ray or M-Sceptile when grass is SE? If M-Ray, then Greninja is hands down the better choice against Rock and Ground types.

I only use Scepy when there are a ton of barriers because I think the Hoenn mega effect really shines on those types of stages. My opinion is that M-Ray has better combo potential. There is no reason to use a mono grass team if you believe that to be the case since SC boosts all damage and grass typing doesn't have a combo booster. I actually like the Hoenn effect a lot and still use M-Blaze+MMX pretty often.

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Thank you again!

I don't really undestand what you mean with Bellossom being a better teammate for Shaymin than Greninja. Shaymin's Sleep Charm boost (1,2) affects all types if you mean that. So unless you are using Mega Sceptile, Greninja is a better team mate for Shaymin against Ground, and Greninja is still a stronger Mind Zap user against Rock. Which leaves Bellossom only the niche of Water, unfortunately. Imo Bellossom should be B-rank with such a small niche unfortunately. :(

Also I think that Abomasnow should rank higher, I'd say B. Sure, it's a bit of a cookie investment (40 SP), but it covers three (Grass, Flying, Dragon) completely new types for Mind Zap, and that's amazing. The synergy of Mind Zap & Freeze is the same as Mind Zap & Sleep Charm, and we all know how you can keep a stage disruption free with that.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Bellossom: You make a very good point, and I think I overestimated Bellossom's synergy with Shaymin-L since, as you said, it's not an exclusive thing outside of M-Sceptile teams (which admittedly got a noticeable buff, but I don't think it's enough). Given /u/KinGod73, /u/13Xcross, and /u/ThunderChizz also agree, I'll bring it down to B-Rank.

(EDIT: Okay, there seems to be some arguments for keeping it in A-Rank as well, so I'll keep it there for now to open up the discussion further.)

Abomasnow: I'm open to ranking it up, but I think that the need for cookie investment does hamper it, which isn't the case for the higher-ranking Mind Zap users. I agree that of the three Mind Zap users in C-Rank, Abomasnow is the one that could rank higher, but I'll wait for more opinions on the matter.

Thanks!

[–]ManitarySMG 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just noticed this conversation: keep Bellossom at A-rank.

Very good ability, farmable, and it's not mandatory to have only one mind zapper in the team.

[–]ryeyunIn a shuffle-induced coma 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm tempted to say Enamored Pikachu has a higher ceiling as a MZ user because covers Water and Flying types. It also gets 10 RMLs.

You have no idea how much this pains me because I love Bellossom. The thought that a team full of winking-chus might be an optimal choice against Water types also makes me sick to my stomach. :(

Lastly, might I add that I think having to skill boost mons isn't as much of a con as it used to be. I would drop 4 SBM on either Obama or E-Chu and think nothing of it. I think many players would agree that RMLs are more valuable than SBs ATM.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Bellossom has an advantage over Enamored Pikachu by being PSB-farmable and covering more types. But yeah, Enamored Pikachu does give it another reason to rank down. (For the record I do like Bellossom myself, and it's the only one of the new batch I've given RMLs to so far, but that's mostly because I didn't invest in Greninja.)

In the same way though, if Abomasnow ranks up, that's another case against Enamored Pikachu since now it has a contender for Flying-types as well. Sure, Enamored Pikachu has higher AP, but Abomasnow opens you up to using all-Ice teams, which has better synergy.

The thought that a team full of winking-chus might be an optimal choice against Water types also makes me sick to my stomach. :(

This is actually pretty funny for me because all-Electric teams are now possible thanks to the Emoticon Pikachu buffs. You get Sleep Charm + Mind Zap, and you get the burst damage from Super Bolt. And all three of those supports have 115 AP. (Good luck running three Pikachu in one team though.)

Lastly, might I add that I think having to skill boost mons isn't as much of a con as it used to be.

Hm, good point. Especially since SBMs are a lot more common now. Thanks for bringing it up!

[–]ryeyunIn a shuffle-induced coma 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ha! I have a feeling there is going to be that "one guy" who brings that full Pikachu team to life tho... (shudders)

And Bellosom is more versatile than E-Chu for sure, but that changes if you already have Greninja to cover Rock+Ground types. Then the only type advantage unique to Bellossom is Water.

Now if you want to replace that advantage, you could opt for E-Chu and gain additional type coverage against Flying types. But the more I think about it, E-chu's 115 max AP really is such a marginal upgrade over Bellawesome and Abomasnow despite the steep cost. I'm assuming that we will always use Obama on a Freeze team, in which case his 92 max AP becomes 110 AP.

Yeah, levelling both Bellossom and Abomasnow is definitely a wayyy better option if you want to maximize your type coverage and preserve SBs+RMLs. I think I like Aboma more though because it covers Flying and Dragon types.

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Sorry, I don't know how I messed that up, Abomasnow actually covers three new types, not two (Dragon, Flying and Grass).

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Technically Trubbish also covers Grass, but yeah, I'd rather invest in Abomasnow over Trubbish (unless I'm dedicated to making an all-Poison team)

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I know but considering the "staple Mind Zappers" Uxie, Bellossom and Greninja, Grass is a new type. Trubbish seems quite nice with 100 AP and I like the Pokémon (hah), but Freeze & Mind Zap is something I wouldn't want to pass on and 5 RML and 40 SP for only Fairy is just a no.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Alright, good points!. I'll rank Abomasnow up to B in the next edit! :)

And as an aside: All the Poison-type investments get bonus points from me (just personally, not in ranking) just because it's incredible that they made Gulpin, Trubbish, and Croagunk three of the most viable Poison-types in the game. Seems more in the spirit of what RMLs bring to the table IMO.

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love Trubbish and Croagunk... I wish Poison had better coverage. :(

[–]The_Hive_Tyrant3DS WTB DRI 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I apologize if I'm missing part of the point of these excellent tier lists you create (and thank you doing so!), but although Virizion has PSB farmability working in its favor, does Carnivine's superior damage on average (Risk Taker > Po4+, and same with Flash Mob, despite the slightly lower AP) warrant a superior grade if one is willing to do the investing?

I've yet to dump RMLs into Virizion (for concern that Carnivine is the better damage dealer, once the current competition becomes irrelevant), but the temptation is strong.

I also made the (perhaps questionable) decision to invest fully into Pikachu (Angry), despite having a level 15 EmolgaSL5 , just because of the superior damage - again, on average, but by no means at all guaranteed. Here's hoping I didn't waste too many RMLs, I suppose.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, I see your point about Carnivine. I admittedly underranked it and would be open to bringing it up to B. Not sure what to do with Virizion though, but I'm okay with ranking it down if more people support the idea.

And admittedly Pikachu (Angry) would've been my first choice if I didn't lack RMLs and skill boosters because 115 AP and x15 multiplier is hilarious.

[–]The_Hive_Tyrant3DS WTB DRI 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hopefully that x15 multiplier will come in handy now and then, and I'll at least occasionally be rewarded for having the gall to invest heavily into an "all or nothing" style proc.

The only other tiny suggestion I would maybe offer is putting Toxicroak above Croagunk (they're the same tier), just because it seems that Poison is such a more powerful ability than Poison Pact, and there's also the 5 AP difference. Regardless though, thank you so much for making these guides - they basically dictate how I spend RMLs, and have for many months.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree with the Toxicroak and Croagunk suggestion. Will switch them in the next edit!

Also, thank you! I'm glad it's helping you with RMLs. :)

[–]The_Hive_Tyrant3DS WTB DRI 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haha! And here I was afraid to comment for fear of having my thoughts and opinion torn apart by Redditors. Glad I could contribute a tiny bit!

[–]the_scupper 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm interested in people's opinion on the value of Po4+ now as well. I immediately gave Virizion a RML for Victini day but now I'm kind of regretting it. When I think about Giratina-A and how I really only use it when running an all Ghost team, Virizion is very similar situation. Difference being grass doesn't have the diversity of abilities where it has been replaced yet.

Po4+ was amazing at one time but now it's unreliability and restricted activation aren't as appealing as some other heavy hitting options.

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

No need to regret it, PO4+ is still great, especially at SL5 coming from 110 AP. An 80% chance (higher than RT 4-match) to get a solid 1485 damage? Yes, please.

Sure, RT can proc on 3-matches, but the general damage output on 3 matches is lower because you don't get the 1,5 boost from a 4-match, and trying to activate RT from a 3-match is a risk itself when you can opt for the activation of another ability on the board. (And we are getting better and better options all the time.)

I may get some bash for this, but outside of Survival Mode Risk Taker is not as good as an ability as some people make it out to be. And this is coming from someone with SL5 Emboar, Machamp, Hoopa and SL4 Landorus and Larvitar (lol) (and SL3 Tornadus).

[–]the_scupper 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well prior to the Risk Taker craze the only time you could deal heavy damage was on match fours with Po4 and Po4+. So being able to combo on a match three and still have a chance to trigger the ability made a huge difference.

I know on heavy disruption stages that divide the board into columns or weird shapes kill any chance to deal that winning blow when you are forced to only a match 4. That's why I miss the old Crowd Control, you could still deal damage when trying to create something out of nothing.

I fear the day Risk Taker gets nerfed. So much investment in a variety of Pokemon.

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Risk Taker won't get nerfed, they are even beginning to roll out Nosedive which is objectively better.

[–]the_scupper 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ha, you're right, it's more Genius Sonority's style to just release an ability that makes it obsolete.

[–]OmnimonX12345All praise Lv20 Godkarp! 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

As someone who proudly gave Magikarp 10 RMLs before even playing a heart on tuesday I can say its placement is pretty generous.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Haha. In Magikarp's defense, it does give an alternative (albeit a harder-to-invest one) to Wailord/Keldeo-O in all-Water teams.

[–]OmnimonX12345All praise Lv20 Godkarp! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

True, but while Magikarp has that single niche going for it, water has so many great support mon fot it that you'd rather take Keldeo or Magikarp, and not both, that's how I see it at least. Also, once Bibarel gets access to RMLs, it will fill Magikarp's niche and then some, due to it being outright superior with 5 RMLs, instead of 10 RMLs and a SS.

[–]FajenThygia 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Angry Pikachu should be B class, because it makes almost any timed stage easier, not just grass and water.

There are two ways to do a timed stage - either keeping a combo multiplier going the entire time, or use your best burst damage pokemon over and over. While the first takes more skill, both are viable and in shorter stages the burst damage may be the superior choice.

A maxed Super Bolt is 6900 SE. Which means it averages 1725 against normally effective pokemon. That's a slightly higher average than most SE Risk-Takers. It's like having a Risk-Taker pokemon that's SE against fourteen different types. Only for timed stages, but that's something a lot of us need. That should be a solid B.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The timed argument makes sense! There was some support for its rising elsewhere so I'll put it to mid-B in the next edit. :)

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's me again...

I gave the list another look and I really have to question the A rank of Salamence. As you say you will mostly use it as a mega, so it won't be on the board much / it will hardly be a part of the combos it creates. It also covers only two types. Sky Blast is a thing, but I really don't see the A rank there. Seems like an "okay" investment, but a lot of things in B seem like better investments for sure.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

There was actually some traction for this in Version 4.1, with /u/Doogs2780's reasoning mostly the same as yours. However, there was disagreement from /u/RedditShuffle and /u/13Xcross, which is why I went for the middle-ground and put it in low A instead (it was high A before).

I'm open to dropping it though if more people support it, as I agree with your reasoning.

[–]RedditShuffle 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Seeing other cool options for it, I'm open to lowering it to B-rank. But I think it should be on par with Dialga and Palkia, so if those stay at A-rank, then so should Salamence. Sure, it's a mega and benefits less from higher AP, but it's got Sky Blast going for it and it also could be a kickass support for M-Pidgeot. I'm fine with it staying where Palkia and Dialga stay, and I think those 3 belong to B-rank.

[–]13XcrossPRAISE IT! [3DS] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agree.

[–]Eleve28|NL| World League Shuffler 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Great list dude, no changes in ranks required from me. I really don't know where to start in maxing the new options. Bellossom and Virizion have (competition) priority, but after those I'm really not sure.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it) this batch doesn't have many immediate options outside of maybe Virizion, and even then it doesn't have a big "RML ME NOW" sign unlike Machamp in the last batch.

[–]Azza_ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think Greninja and Bellossom should both have a clarification of only RML'ing one of them. Both are good options, but they have very similar coverage and if you invest in one, you don't need to invest in the other.

Also, I think M-Swampert is underrated. The advantage S-Gyarados has over Swampert is it doesn't need to be a mono-type team, but I never find myself wanting for additional type coverage when using waters. M-Swamp does a lot of damage if you use him correctly and with RML investment that's a significant boost. Would at least put him on par with M-Sceptile, who combines well with Bellossom/Shaymin but lacks that extra bit of utility; M-Swampert has Palkia, Suicune, Manaphy, Kingdra, Greninja and Feraligatr to cover almost every sort of utility you need to support him.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Noted on the Greninja and Bellossom clarification. I'll add it in the next edit.

As for M-Swampert, there is support for ranking M-Sceptile up so I'm inclined to do the same for M-Swampert, but I disagree with it being at the same level because of the utility of Shaymin-L + Bellossom. M-Swampert may have better disruption-clearers, but M-Sceptile has a way to both set up and take advantage of the board-wipes it can cause.

[–]Azza_ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The lack of damage bonus from sleep is the only real difference between them. Kingdra/Feraligatr + Greninja does the same job as Shaymin-L + Bellossom in blocking disruptions, and IMO the water options are much more reliable than the Grass ones.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think Kingdra and Feraligatr can give the same amount of utility that Shaymin-L does, but you do raise a good point in the amount of teammates M-Swampert has. If M-Sceptile becomes high B or low A, I think M-Swampert can be low B.

[–]AGordo 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think lost in all of this is the strength (max AP) of the water support pokemon. Even if you don't RML Palkia (would be 115 AP), chances are you have Greninja maxed and Suicune, so now you're replacing 125 AP and 110 AP with 99 AP matches. This is the exact reason why I'm starting to lean towards candying Shiny Gyarados (waiting for the other shiny release first). It's also the reason why I might start saying goodbye to M-Sceptile, since grass support are now getting boosts in AP.

That being said, I think you can make a closer argument for still using M-Sceptile than you can M-Swampert.

[–]J_GAMER_X_thestorm55Snorlium X! or couchabunga dude or something 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I like how it say both nidoran get 40 RML despite them actually getting 5, 40 just seems like a hilariously high number

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oops, I think I typed in their BP instead. Good catch!

[–]J_GAMER_X_thestorm55Snorlium X! or couchabunga dude or something 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

when I first saw it I was like did they really give something 40 RML!?! anyways glad I could help I am pretty good at finding errors

[–]HylianGlaceon 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Both Nidoran confirmed OP with 195AP at Lv 50.

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Nowadays, shouldn't Snorunt be A rank and Glalie be B rank? Now I would have a hard time explaining to anyone why they should RML Glalie instead of Snorunt. Sure, Snorunt takes double the RML but the AP is the same in the end and Freeze is very much superior to Chill and additionally Snorunt has a much, much better drop rate for PSB. Additionally Snorunt is the base of the rise of Ice teams and it has amazing support available in Abomasnow and Vanillish/Articuno.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I had initially thought of Snorunt (and Vanillish) being at A, but decided to settle for high B because of the heavy investment needed. Snorunt needs 10 RMLs just to have the same AP as 60 BPs with 5 RMLs, which is pretty steep.

I do agree that Glalie can rank down to B though because Chill now has competition in Freeze, and you'd rather run Snorunt over Glalie in all-Ice teams (and there's no room for running both). Although even with the easier effort to boost Freeze, it still has poor activation rates compared to Chill.

(And maybe it's just recency bias, but Glalie's pulled in a lot of work for me in the Latias EB so far. Haha.)

[–]BrunoB1989 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, there is room for both since Glalie is a decent mega and its damage would be boosted by Freeze+Ice Dance. He is also a good alternative as mega against dragons, being able to have dragons as support (with Rayquaza you are limited).

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Glalie's the best Ice-type mega, yes, but it's far from the best mega for Ice teams. The Freeze + Ice Dance combo is pretty M-Ray friendly since it blocks disruptions and is reliant on long combos for the good damage.

[–]The_Watcher_Nos 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I would like to lobby for Staraptor to be moved to A-Rank.

Right now, Staraptor is the only disruption remover on a Flying Team. If you want to run a Flying Team (especially now, since Genius Sonority is using so many disruptions on stages), you need Staraptor.

Staraptor only needs 40 Skill Boosters to reach Skill Level 4 on Stabilize+ which is 60%/90%/100% (almost as good an activation rate as Block Smash+/Rock Smash+; albeit removing only 2 rather than 3 disruptions).

BTW, I realize someone will argue that people will prefer to activate Sky Blast, but that didn't stop Throh (Pummel) and Talonflame (Pyre) from reaching A-Rank Utility.

But I understand a tier list is subjective, so I'm just happy that Staraptor is at least B-Rank right now.

[–]RedditShuffle 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stabilize+ suffers some major issues. First, taking out one disruption less than BS+/RB+/BB+ is a very noticeable difference. Second of all, Stabilize+ has an order in which it takes out disruptions. If there are rocks+blocks+barriers on the field, first it takes out the rocks, if there are no rocks then the blocks, and if there aren't either of the first two, then barriers. And not being able to control what you want to clear is pretty crappy. That's why Stabilize+ is mostly a bad skill and not worth boosting at all.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Good points, but I don't think Staraptor has enough utility to justify A-Rank. Throh and Talonflame both have the advantage of not needing as much investment as Staraptor to do its job as well as having superior type coverage. Yes, Staraptor does beat them in AP and technically being more versatile (you can bring Staraptor in block-heavy and barrier-heavy stages as opposed to being limited to one type of disruption), but having to rely on shaky accuracy (if below SL5) to remove just two disruptions doesn't look too pretty.

It's a good catch-all, and it's very helpful for Sky Blast teams, but I don't think that's enough to warrant A-Rank.

[–]The_Watcher_Nos 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How is Skill Level 4 - 60%/90%/100% equal "shaky" accuracy vs. Throh and Talonflame's 50%/100%/100% accuracy? 9 times out of 10 you will get an activation on a 4-match.

I haven't used RMLs on Throh or Talonflame and I get by fine. I have used RMLs & Skill Boosters on Staraptor, because Sky Blast teams are great now that Mega Salamence is here.

I would argue Sky Blast needs Staraptor to be successful, but Pyre Teams don't need RML Talonflame & Pummel teams don't need RML Throh.

[–]Zachindes 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for these updates, I've used 77 RMLs so far and have 4 in the bank with (hopefully) 3 on the way from stage 200 in the EB.

Machamp is my only 10/10 but I've got a fair amount of 5/10 and 5/5. Golurk, Emboar, and Raikou are my main priorities outside of the competition. The problem is deciding what mons to use when I have so many that are maxed at lvl 10

[–]Wonbee 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm unconvinced that RMLing Beedril is worth it. If you're using Mega Beedril, you aren't using it for damage. I can already beat survival mode itemless pretty consistently with the standard Risk-Taker team, and Beedril's damage is pretty much a non-factor there.

In main stages, I use Beedril for low-turn disruption heavy stages, and a lot of time Beedril only has neutral-effectiveness, making the damage boost seem even more negligible. I would love to be proven wrong though

[–]EkintNever enough hearts 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Beedrill can be used in many different situations and stage types effectively. Increasing his ap is contributing to many different situations.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sometimes you fail the stage by a sliver of HP, so it could help. And I know that the level doesn't matter much but a 92 AP Beedrill would make me much more comfortable on all stages than a 80 AP one

[–]Inequilibrium 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Beedrill's damage isn't a non-factor vs Fairy and Grass types, which a lot of people's SM teams don't handle well (especially if they don't have a Fire type). I'd take any increased damage in SM just to make it a bit safer, there are inevitably going to be moments when that will save you a turn.

[–]esu_wishmaster 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Agreed with almost everything. Except for Angry Pikachu. It deserves at least B. When maxed out, one single activation of Super Bolt can decide whether you rank top tier in a competition or not.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think the biggest points against it are the heavy investment needed as well as the poor activation rates that skill boosting won't solve. A coin-flip on a 5-match is exciting but unreliable.

[–]The_Watcher_Nos 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You only need 30 Skill Boosters to reach Skill Level 4 = 13x damage.

Setting up a 5 match is easy on a timed stage, where Angry Pikachu will rule IMO.

Angry Pikachu should be higher than C-rank IMO.

[–]FajenThygia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Agreed on this. On timed stages, it will do more damage on average than risk taker, even without being super effective. And for people that have trouble with timed stages, that's an answered prayer.

[–]The_Watcher_Nos 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I used Angry Pikachu (Skill Level 4, Level 20) on Mega Gyarados, and I ranked #47 on my first (and only) attempt.

I was rewarded with a Level Up, 5 RMLs, and 5 Mega Speedups.

Totally worth it.

[–]the_scupper 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah but that's 2 1/2 months of Eevee dropping a present to max out one Pokemon that only works half the time. And is very niche to timed stages and itemless S ranks on two types.

Though I'll still farm it when it comes available.

[–]The_Watcher_Nos 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You only need 30 SB to reach Skill Level 4, which is 13x damage.

5 matches are easy to setup on timed stages, where Angry Pikachu will pwn.

Angry Pikachu should be ranked higher IMO.

[–]RealPrajdo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I personally think that Carnivine should be higher then C.

I know it hasn't PSB farmable stage and there's stronger Virizion but don't forget those pokemons can be paired. I'm already training them both for Gyarados competition and I must say it's an amazing combination along with SL5 Lvl15 Emolga.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I replied to the same sentiment elsewhere but I've ranked Carnivine to low B. :)

[–]james2c19v 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (24子コメント)

Great work getting an update up so quickly. Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm still in disagreement about the Emboar/Moltres thing:

but Emboar needs less investment both in RMLs and skill boosting.

I'm not sure that's accurate. Even if you give Moltres only 70 PSB and 5 RML, the result is an SL4 110 AP fire poke which deals an expected value of x3.15 damage on a 4-match. With the same investment, Emboar will be an SL5 110 AP fire poke which deals an expected value of x3.2 damage on a 4-match. That is, they're virtually the same poke at that level of investment. Yes, you get the 3-matches with RT (only an expected value of x2.58 damage) and the rare 5-match, but this is only a slight advantage, and one that comes at the cost of a skill swapper.

TLDR Moltres does not need more investment to be competitive with Emboar. It's actually competitive with less investment (no skill swapper required), and it surpasses Emboar with full investment.

Edit: fixed a number, thanks for reminding me /u/ryeyun. It doesn't change the main point though.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (14子コメント)

The investment is great for Emboar, it provides 3 and 5 matches (5 matches aren't rare on a 4-Pokemon stage).

Another thing: This is a guide! for people who are deciding who to RML. Emboar will come back as a farmable stage, Moltres won't (99%) and I wouldn't suggest to anybody to give Moltres 120 Skill Booster. If they have it at Sl5, they wouldn't need a guide to tell them to RML it

[–]james2c19v 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Expected damage is competitive at every PSB level, not just 70. Only have 3 medium cookies? SL3 Po4 competes with SL4 RT. Only have 1 or 2 smalls? Same for SL2 Po4 and SL3 RT.

Those are facts and numbers, but as for the speculation: At this point we're just as likely to see a Moltres repeat as an Emboar repeat. As this most recent Latias repeat shows, everything gets repeated (if it isn't made into a main stage), and lately, the repeats have been coming faster.

Back to firmer ground: regardless of someone's resources, Moltres is competitive in the short term and superior in the long term.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Expected damage is competitive at every PSB level, not just 70. Only have 3 medium cookies? SL3 Po4 competes with SL4 RT. Only have 1 or 2 smalls? Same for SL2 Po4 and SL3 RT.

If I'm gonna give 5 RMLs (or 10) to a Pokemon with RT/Po4+ why would I pump it to only SL3? It's either all the way or don't RML it

At this point we're just as likely to see a Moltres repeat as an Emboar repeat. As this most recent Latias repeat shows, everything gets repeated (if it isn't made into a main stage), and lately, the repeats have been coming faster.

No, because Emboar actually is a Special Stage, Moltres was just a Special-wannabe who is an Expert at heart. You're as likely to see Moltres again as you are to see Raikou, Entei and Suicune. Don't count on it... We shouldn't recommend Moltres to newbies and say "it might come back", because it won't. And Emboar will be back for sure.

Moltres is competitive in the short term and superior in the long term.

Once again I disagree, but let's end it there

[–]james2c19v 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

You're as likely to see Moltres again as you are to see Raikou, Entei and Suicune.

I wouldn't be so sure. Mewtwo, an expert stage, has already repeated its special stage. All together, I don't think speculation on how soon a special stage will be repeated should weigh heavily in a guide like this.

My point about Moltres being competitive with Emboar with similar investment doesn't depend on whether or not the Moltres special stage gets repeated in any case.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I wouldn't be so sure. Mewtwo, an expert stage, has already repeated its special stage.

Yeah because Mewtwo got a Skill Swapper after its debut and is one of the top5 most popular Pokemon in the game. If the birds get swappers, we can predict otherwise

I don't think speculation on how soon a special stage will be repeated should weigh heavily in a guide like this.

There's no speculation really, Moltres won't repeat. And ofc it weights, why would you RML a Moltres without investing in its skill?

I get that you've trained your Moltres and all, but try to look from an objective point of view, don't praise Moltres just because you did it. I for one didn't RML Keldeo or Skarmory because I don't personally like them, but I recommend them to others when asked because objectively I think they are great Pokemon to RML

[–]james2c19v 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I get that you've trained your Moltres and all

I also have a lvl 15 SS'd SL5 Dusknoir. I've argued extensively on this sub that it's not an efficient use of resources—I accept that Dusknoir wasn't the best use of resources and I'm okay with it. And it's not like I hate on RT; I'm much more heavily invested in RT actually (my lvl 20 SS'ed SL5 Machamp, for example). I'm not arguing from the position of a fanboi.

try to look from an objective point of view

That's why I present mathematical arguments.

From my perspective, there's a little too much mystique surrounding RT, and there has been for a long time. Ever since they debuted Po4+ and then Lando-T with SLs the perception was cemented that RT was king and that Po4 was a sucky ability for unevolved Kano starters. The math, however, does not agree with this subjective sentiment. IIRC, Moltres's special stage came at the same time or before Emboar's special stage, and people were like "Don't bother with Moltres; Emboar is better." It's my conclusion that people were misled.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, you do have a point with Emboar and Moltres being rivals. And it was very debatable which one is better, but now, at this point in Shuffle, I'm afraid Emboar is the winner because of the farmable stage. If people invested in Moltres then they'll RML it as well, but no one is gonna invest in it now, after it was extremely viable

[–]RedditShuffle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I totally agree with you, I don't know why people aren't taking into account the fact that Emboar will come back and Moltres won't, apart from the heavy difference in investment needed for each (120 PSB vs 70 PSB and 400 coins vs heart stage cost). Emboar wins by a mile when taking this into account.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

That's what I've been trying to tell to /u/james2c19v, and RT > Po4 on paper

[–]RedditShuffle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't know how people can say "on 4-matches it's 5% better! Who cares about 3 and 5 matches?" when that makes the whole difference in the world. Also, making a 4-match from an available 5-match, in terms of combo potential, is awful 99% of the time.

[–]james2c19v 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You're right about combo potential in that situation for horizontal matches at least. Not sure how you got 5% more damage though. Moltres does 28% more damage than Emboar on 4-match activations.

RT 3-matches aren't a significant advantage for Emboar over Moltres because they lack the stacking bonuses of 4 and 5 matches and the proc rate is bad. Why would I go for a 40% chance for a big hit with RT over a 90% chance at Pyre, an 80% chance at BS+, a 75% chance at Burn, etc.?

And seriously, 5 matches are rare. Like, maybe once on a 20 move stage for a given mon (though this does change especially with M-Ray), which means likely none on shorter stages. I'd love to see stats from someone running a simulation though. For other abilities like Sleep Charm it might make sense to spend a turn setting up a 5-match, but for burst moves you end up negating the burst damage. So it's mainly only relevant on timed stages.

Math for my first point: Po4 damage at SL5: x1.5 damage x 2.4 SL bonus x 100% proc rate = x3.6 damage on 4-match RT damage at SL5: x1.67 avg damage x 2.5 SL bonus x 70% proc + 30% no-proc damage = x3.2 avg damage on 4-match. x3.6 and x3.2 might not seem that far apart, but factoring in standard match and SE bonuses they're x10.8 and x9.6 respectively, and when you compare 125 AP with 110 AP (Moltres v. Emboar), it's 1350 damage vs. 1056 avg damage, which definitely adds up alongside the combos.

[–]RedditShuffle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

3-matches have a 50% activation rate, not 40%, and yes, they are a huge advantage over Po4. And I don't know how you play, but 5-matches aren't that rare to find, and they are devastating.

Anyway, at this point this discussion is pretty stupid. Emboar will come back and be PSB farmable, while Moltres won't, and investing 120 skill points with skill boosters is plain worthless.

[–]james2c19v 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

To be precise, RT has a 36% chance of proc'ing a x3 multiplier or greater on a 3-match, and x3 isn't even that impressive without the match size bonus. And such a low probability/expected damage is usually a strategically inferior move compared to the alternatives.

And as far as the rarity of 5-matches, I've averaged less than 1 on my freezing mon per stage this escalation. They're rare compared to 4-matches.

The facts still matter because they're applicable to other situations (eg Emolga/Zapdos) and because no one has a crystal ball on special stages. Should the tiers live and die on speculation over whether a mon will be repeated in 6 months vs. 9 months? That would be worthless.

[–]RedditShuffle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, the tiers should be based on the likelihood of the stage being PSB farmable again. Emboar will be PSB farmable 100%, and Moltres is more on the 1% chance. That's pretty decisive for someone thinking about investing now. A crystal ball isn't needed to guess accurately what will come for sure and what is extremely unlikely to come again.

5-matches are rare, but not crazy rare as to not take them into account in the math, and then it destroys Po4. And 3-matches are pretty awesome too. The versatility that being able to have all type of matches is a huge lead over other skills.

That's why I think Nosedive is the best hitting skill, it has the huge damage output comparable to RT with the multiplier reliability of Po4/Po4+.

[–]james2c19v 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

RT 5-matches have great expected value and even decent reliability (about a 71% of getting at least a x3 multiplier), but horizontal 5-matches are significantly worse than even horizontal 4-matches in terms of combo potential, and given that you probably won't see one for your RT poke on most runs (most stages have <20 moves), it's hard to give the potential much weight in the comparison with Po4. You have to have Super Bolt or Fury of Five-level payoffs to make it a significant factor (where the payoff is so massive that it's worth it to take a set-up turn).

Until someone can offer additional math/demonstration, it stands that Moltres is superior at full investment. I'm fine saying something though like "Emboar is a better investment if you can't farm Moltres." People who [will] have farmed it though shouldn't be misled.

I definitely agree that Nosedive is the bomb though. It's like an upgraded Po4+ and Po5 combined, a more powerful and more reliable Risk-Taker. Po4 would still have a place though for a more reliable skill. And speaking of reliable, Flash Mob is actually one of my favorites. 65/100/100 and potentially Po4-level damage, even on 3-matches since the damage bonus isn't affected by the lack of a match-size bonus. Now that's an awesome 3-match for burst.

[–]ryeyunIn a shuffle-induced coma 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I kind of agree with you. Emboar is great, but Moltres is better with max investment. My one grievance is that saying SL4 15/20 Moltres is on par with SL5 15/15 Emboar is a big stretch.

I think you're heavily discounting the versatility of being able to make 3/5 matches. I find that I'm oftentimes forced to make 3-matches on stages with nasty disruptions, and sometimes it is better to make a 3-match for combo purposes. (I'm pretty sure the avg RT dmg for 3-matches is 2.58 btw) 5-matches are rare and generally not combo friendly, but they are very useful in timed stages.

Overall, I wouldn't fault people for investing in Emboar if they missed the Moltres train. It's more affordable and more versatile. But an avg of 1350 damage off of 4-matches is no joke and bests Emboar by about 300 points. Also, the extra AP is HUGE when stacked with Burn and Pyre. This is the real reason why I'd choose Moltres over Emboar.

But honestly, I'm not as high on either mon after the last few updates. Mono fire teams now have STEEP competition with Flying, Poison, and Ice types.

[–]james2c19v 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You raise good points. I might have been downplaying the 3/5-matches too much. In a pinch, they can occasionally pull something out for you. On the other hand, I didn't even mention the value inherent in having a 100% reliable skill in Po4. When you evaluate RT according to its odds of giving you a big hit, it's more like 36/50/71.

But your last point is too true. Ice is the bomb! I have an SL5 lvl 15 Articuno and I want to take it to lvl 20 alongside a maxed out ice team. Articuno is S-rank for me for sure.

[–]The_Watcher_Nos 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree, IMO Emboar is too high.

Risk Taker is not going to help much on timed stages. Plus there's tons of good fire type pokemon already.

Also, I'm consistently beating Survival Mode without Emboar, so I don't see the point of using RMLs on Emboar that I could use to win a competition (that pays 5 RMLs).

I would have no problem with Emboar as A-Rank.

Full disclosure: My Emboar is Level 10, Skill Level 5 (seems like a good idea to max out Risk Taker vs. other pokemon during that week).

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Haha, I always feel like I'm lacking something when discussing RT vs. Po4 (and by extension Emboar vs. Moltres) since there's a lot of factors surrounding it. I really do thank you for bringing in Po4's side of the equation all the time since a lot of users (myself included) are very fond of RT that it's hard to tear it down when talking about how other skills could be better.

That being said, I'm not really sure what to do here. I could see three possibilities:

  • Keep Emboar at S, bring Moltres up to S - Since they virtually bring the same thing to the table and have their own cons that the other takes advantage of, it would be fair to both rank them highly.
  • Keep Moltres at A, bring Emboar down to A - Same as above, but highlighting the fact that they're "Yes, but..." and not "Yes, absolutely" options.
  • Keep Emboar at S, Keep Moltres at A, but rank Moltres higher within A - This is what I prefer, but there have been arguments against Moltres in the previous thread, so much so that some have called it to be re-ranked to B.

So yeah, not really sure what to do with this. That's not even going into discussing Articuno, who could honestly make a case for S-Rank given the boost to Ice-types and the lack of competition, but eh. (Ice overlaps less with Fighting than Fire too.) I'll wait 'til someone brings it up. Haha.

[–]james2c19v 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

RT is certainly good, but I think it's easy to be enchanted by it via confirmation bias/having those huge hits stand out in memory. 3 matches are not as good as people often assume because a 40% chance of a big hit is usually worse than a 50-100% chance of clearing disruptions or activating an ability like Burn, Mind Zap, Freeze, Ice Dance, etc. You only go with 3 match RT when you basically have zero other options, which is probably as rare as seeing a 5 match. 4 match is 90% of the ability's utility.

I'd switch Emboar and Moltres, but I'd also compromise and move Emboar down to A right next to Moltres. Articuno decisively up to S though. The ice team is over the top now. Articuno competes with SS Avalugg, but is still superior overall.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

A bulk of this comment thread seems more in favor of ranking down Emboar, so I'm inclined to do that if there aren't any strong disagreements - which there is, so I'll wait for more discussion.

As for Articuno, I'm okay with bringing it up to S-Rank if more people are aboard the Ice-type train. I had initially thought of ranking Snorunt and Vanillish to A because Ice is comparable to Fire coverage-wise, but B seemed more suited for them considering the heavy investment needed. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on Articuno. Why do you think should it be S-Rank?

[–]james2c19v 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Articuno, Snorunt, and Vanillish are my top RML priorities right now. Together, they are arguably the best supporting cast in Shuffle right now. You've got AP 125 Po4 x3.6, AP 105 Freeze 25/55/90, and AP 115 Ice Dance 60/80/100.

First of all, this team has the greatest damage potential bar none against flying and dragon. It competes with sleep Grass against ground and burn Fire/blast Flying against grass. Unlike dragon, fire, and flying, however, it also delays disruptions while dishing out tons of damage, which makes it arguably better even in these cases.

All together, this gives you a supporting cast that is just amazing and clearly or arguably the best for 1/5 of all the types in Pokemon. It takes a lot of investment, but I liken it to M-Ray. Sure, 20 MSU seems like a steep investment, but compared to 12 for Banette, 5 for MMY, 10 for Salamence, 9 for Ampharos, etc. it's actually a bargain. Same for these ice supports: you put 30 RMLs into these guys and you are set for so many stages. Along these lines, a maxed out ice team and a maxed out fighting team cover a full 50% of all types in Pokemon.

[–]Fepl31 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If Emboar could go to level 20, it would be better than Moltres for sure, right?
Because I would (and will) take that on consideration, since a lvl 20 Emboar seems more likely to come before lvl 25 Moltres. :P

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not sure if I did it right, but using this damage calculator, assuming equal AP, SL5 Po4 outdamages SL5 RT on average in 4-matches (taking into account activation rate), but RT can be activated in 3- and 5-matches. You can technically activate Po4 in 5-matches by making it a 4-match, but a 5-match RT would outdamage it on average.

[–]PlatybusGTE 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Nice list update! I agree with it.

There's a rumour Cobalion will be soon featured in a RML drop stage and a competition. In the case this turns out to be true (only time will tell), the Pokémon will have a PSB dropping stage. In this hipothetical scenario, would this potential farming be enough to take the mon up to Tier B - Damage?

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yup, though it'll probably be low B since even at SL5, Nosedive outdamages Po4+. Could be enough to push down Mawile to C-Rank though.

If Terrakion gets one, it might be low A since it's our first viable Rock-type hard-hitter (EDIT: that can be PSB-farmed). But let's see.

[–]AGordo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The thing about Terrakion though is that his type advantage is always covered by other hard hitters. i.e. Either Lando-T, Machamp, Emboar, Emolga, or some combination of them.

Although, with that said, I guess it's an interesting discussion to have as far as the availability of invested pokemon, and the accessibility of boosting them. Meaning, if you don't have access to, say, Lando-T or Emboar, or Machamp's farmable stage, then Terrakion becomes a viable alternative. For the time that he would get a farmable stage. After that he requires a larger skill booster investment compared to RT. But people may still not have access to Lando-T to fight fire. So it's a tough discussion to have :P But I guess he might be stronger than Lando-T if RMLed. Boy not so cut and dry. I don't envy you haha

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Doesn't help that Rock doesn't have a combo booster either, unlike many of the types it overlaps with. So yeah, probably mid-B.

[–]G996 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

There is a table error for Pikachu (Spooky)'s line. Other than that in some descriptions you're saying Shock Attack lasts longer than Paralyze and Sleep Charm but AFAIK all lasts the same amount of turns. Some sources say it lasts for 4 turns, I'm not sure if it was like that before but I don't think it's true currently. I'm a SL5 Shock Attack Infernape user to back it up but it'd be cool if someone confirms it. Shame on me if I'm wrong about this.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanks for pointing out the error!

And thanks for pointing that out. I'd love more anecdotes on this since I only based it on comments in past versions as well as what's on the Wikia, which says it lasts four turns (compared to Sleep Charm's 3 and Paralyze's 2).

[–]G996 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ignore what I said for Shock Attack. I did some testing.

For Parayze:

Move 1: Activated Paralyze

Move 2: non-disruption effecting match, status continues

Move 3: non-disruption effecting match, status ends

For Sleep Charm:

Move 1: Activated Sleep Charm

Move 2: non-disruption effecting match, status continues

Move 3: non-disruption effecting match, status continues

Move 4: non-disruption effecting match, status ends

For Shock Attack:

Move 1: Activated Shock Attack

Move 2: non-disruption effecting match, status continues

Move 3: non-disruption effecting match, status continues

Move 4: non-disruption effecting match, status continues

Move 5: non-disruption effecting match, status ends

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for testing! So Shock Attack does last longer and is effectively a better Paralyze. S-Rank Lapras when

[–]NikeXTCNobody expected Skill Level 5 Last-Ditch Effort! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just a quick correction: Sleeping Pikachu reaches 115 AP at level 20, not 15 (even though I'd like it to do so)

EDIT: and Spooky Pikachu as well! Nasty copy-paste, I presume :D

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

XD Yep, it only gets more confusing to put it together the more options there are. Thanks for pointing these out!

[–]Locky_Strikto 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

If Zoroark can be placed higher than Beedrill with its similar 3 RML status why can't Beedrill be the same rank as Zoroark? IMO Zoroark RML is a little overrated here and should be in B-rank.

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Beedrill is mostly used on neutral stages which means that it gains only half the benefit from AP most of the time compared to super effective options. Also 3 RML give it the smallest possible AP per RML increase. So you effectively get almost nothing for those 3 RML.

Zoroark is not overrated... the ability boosts the AP by 1,5 so the RML boost is more than what it seems. It is used when it's SE. It will drop from skyfall a lot during combos and since it's a combo-Pokémon you will probably use a combo-Mega like Rayquaza so the AP matters. Bee is a mega so even because of that the AP doesn't matter much because it will appear less in skyfall and you won't be using a combo mega.

[–]Inequilibrium 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also 3 RML give it the smallest possible AP per RML increase

It gets 4 AP per level, which is more than any Pokemon gets per level from 16 to 20. It would be nice to get the jump at 15, but not having it doesn't mean it's not worth boosting.

[–]ThunderChizzdat perfect MAX msu-rml-skill Sableye tho 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because Beedrill is a Mega, meaning that once it goes off you won't see it for a while. There's a reason Mega Pokemon don't get the crown. Zoroark is always on the board and benefits from its own ability greatly. Plus you need the AP for half of the EBs (we don't use Beedrill on boss stages or competitions)

[–]Locky_Strikto 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess that makes sense for the shift in mewtwo's viability to A rank too.

[–]EkintNever enough hearts 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Beedril is Srank utility in my opinion

[–]MayorOfParadise残酷なRNGススのテーゼ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not stopping you if you want to RML it.

[–]EkintNever enough hearts 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was the first thing I did :)

[–]alex031029 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I am not quite a fan of Mind Zap. I always meet a dilemma of whether to sacrifice some damages to toss the Mind Zap coin or seek maximum damage this turn. If the counter is a small number, I am quite anxious about the unreliability of Mind Zap on 4 match.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Fair point with the 4-match argument, although I have to argue that Mind Zap is to long disruption counters what BS+ is to blocks and BB+ is to barriers, with the added benefit of extending useful status conditions such as Sleep Charm. IMO, using Mind Zap is predicated on giving you extra turns of a clear board to do maximum damage instead of doing maximum damage instantly.

[–]alex031029 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's right. The unreliability of both Sleep Charm and Mind Zap makes the performance on a certain stage wave hugely. It's good for get an S Rank and aim a high score in competition, but a hindrance of grinding (except that the stage is way too difficult we have no other choice).

[–]The_Watcher_Nos 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

A 5 match is 100% activation.

Mind Zap is great on a long countdown,

You can level up a team on Ampharos with a Mind Zap pokemon without needing a Mega evolved pokemon on the team. It's that strong.

[–]alex031029 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A 5 match is 100% activation even in SL1. So I am quite unmotivated to raise it to SL5.

For Ampharos, you may try 4 pokemons even without mind zap or Mega. It is not hard even you put a NVE pokemon into the team.

[–]Fepl31 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ow, dude... I thought Dialga would be extremely good considering that I already use him often without any RML and it looks a lot like Yveltal... x.x

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's discussion on ranking Dialga and Palkia higher. But no shame in investing in them! :)

[–]lethuserBring Mega Latios and Mega Swampert back now pls 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think Virizion should be at S-Rank damage. We really lack hard-hitting options for his coverage - only Rock is covered by Machamp. I also think Greninja and Bellossom belong in S-Rank utility, they're beasts with SL5.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Virizion: Technically you do have options for all its coverage. Rock, as you said, is covered by Machamp, but also by Lando-T and Skarmory. Water is covered by Emolga, Zapdos, Angry Pikachu and Carnivine. Ground is covered by Articuno and Wailord/Keldeo-O. Compared to Machamp, Virizion just doesn't bring enough to the table for S-Rank.

Greninja and Bellossom: While I recognize Mind Zap's utility, I don't think they're comparable to what's in S-Rank right now, especially considering activation rates. They are both very good options though!

[–]Luna_Kidd 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Virizion

While I don't see Virizion as S-Rank, if it covers all of those types, wouldn't it make sense to RML Virizion as a jack of all trades, before going to all the others? I don't come by RML very often & I'm still deciding on whether to boost Emolga or Virizion since I seem to do poorly against water types, so far I've only been able to RML Raikou & Machamp of Virizion's alternatives. ...BTW, thank you so much for this guide!

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That can be the case! It's a matter of investing in the ones that give you the coverage you need, and that varies from player to player. Machamp has unparalleled coverage, which is why it's at S.

For Virizion, it's a very good investment if you need the coverage for Water and Ground (and the additional coverage to Rock), but my reasoning is more on how you could get the same coverage from stronger Pokemon who additionally covers other critical types like Articuno or is easier to invest in like Emolga. That's why it's in A.

[–]Wafflesauce 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Small note I wanted to add about Avalugg: You say that Articuno is more consistent, which is technically untrue. At SL5, Flash Mob is 65/100/100 vs 0/100/0 for Po4.

Another note is that Flash Mob only takes 70 PSBs vs. Po4 taking 120 PSBs.

I will concede that a Lvl 20 SL5 Articuno will do more burst damage than a Lvl 15 SL5 Avalugg, but I personally prefer that extra flexibility from getting activations from 3 and 5 matches, allowing to set up for better combos, rock breaks, and mega activations.

[–]BrunoB1989 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But you need an all ice team, you are crippled by block disruptions and I'm not sure if Freeze can boost Flash Mob damage too. Plus, Articuno was PSB-farmable.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I ran it by the damage calculator comparing Articuno and Avalugg (all maxed out). And while Articuno outdamages it at level 20, Avalugg comes very close if the board is filled with Ice-types. (I'm getting averages of 746.5 / 1110 / 1190 for SL5 Level 15 Avalugg if there are 30 icons on the board. SL5 Level 20 Articuno is a set 1350 but only on 4-matches.)

That being said, I do agree with /u/BrunoB1989 that the disruptions hinder it a lot. I'm open to ranking it higher though. How does low B-Rank sound?

[–]Bacteriophag 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I really like these opinion threads but I often RML Pokemon based on my personal likes. So far I fed:

Charizard - 5 (power to the 60s!)

Glalie - 5 (see above)

Raikou - 2 (in progress, my favorite Johto dog)

Suicune - 2 (in progress, my second favorite Johto dog)

Machamp - 5 (Kanto power at its finest, also SL5)

Mewtwo - 5 (2 Megas for a price of 1)

Lucario - 5 (Pummel is good for Machamp)

Yveltal - 5 (soooo many Psychic and Ghost EBs... so many...)

Mawile - 5 (long awaited love for this cool Mega pal from early times in game)

Salamence - 5 (I admit this was impulsive decision because of competition but it paid off with 2nd tier)

Umbreon - 4 (in progress, my favorite Eeveelution, also swapped to Eject+)

Keldeo - 1 (Flash Mob hype was real... maybe I will finish it one day)

I don't want to RML Golurk, Throh or Virizion no matter how useful they may be, just because I don't like these Pokemon much and I hope for alternatives in future.

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I really like these opinion threads but I often RML Pokemon based on my personal likes.

That is a very valid way to use your RMLs! This guide is more for people who are confused with how to use them and want a second opinion. :)

[–]Bacteriophag 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't get me wrong, I always await these threads before giving RMLs after new batch is released, because I'm addicted to second opinion as well :D Usually when I feed my "not so S or A rank" guys is when waiting for new batch is becoming painful. Also, Umbreon really helps with Victini, since not maxed but strong enough SE options are really limited in my case.

[–]J_GAMER_X_thestorm55Snorlium X! or couchabunga dude or something 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

shouldn't keldo's description say one more skill swapper

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good catch! I thought I changed it when I switched Wailord and Keldeo-O but apparently not. Edited it!

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hi! So /u/jameslfc and I decided to put four Pokemon into a survey on where they should be ranked. Check out the survey here! There's already been some discussion on all four of them (some more than others), so if you want to know more about why they are being surveyed, check the links below:

[–]BrunoB1989 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Since the last update, I'm thinking about investing RMLs on a anti-fairy team, but I'm not sure yet if I should go with poison or steel.
* Poison team
M-Beedril to remove disruptions, a support with Poison skill, another support with Poison Pact and Muk for burst damage.
* Steel team
Some steel mega, Jirachi to help with the evolution, Dialga for disruptions and Skarmory for more damage.

What do you guys think, any opinion or better options?

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sorry for the late reply!

IMO Poison teams are more effective as a monotype team, but they need a lot more investment and a lot of them have low AP caps. That's also a lot of investment for a relatively small niche.

On the other hand, there are far fewer effective Steel-types, but they all do their job well (Dialga for disruption-clearing, Skarmory or Mawile for burst damage), and you aren't limited to using a Steel mega. You can just invest in two or three Steel-types to counter Fairies and use a catch-all mega like Ttar.

[–]BrunoB1989 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's what I was thinking too. With big investment, Poison may be better in the long run if I target fairy types only. I'll wait for new pokemon to be released while I get more RMLs, thank you for the reply.

[–]lllDoubleDlll 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Brand new to the game here, on mobile. Was so stoked to get venesaur and blastoise today. Apparently I've got a lot to learn.

[–]bengine99 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

So, apparently next week's Cradily & Armaldo come with 5 RML slots.

I guess Cradily should be ranked C, while Armaldo get F?

Info coming from /u/OreoCupcakes

Cradily

Armaldo

[–]skippingmudMimikyu flair when?[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, that is where I'll rank them. Cradily next to the Eject+ Eeveelutions and Armaldo with the likes of Chesnaught and Seviper. Thanks!