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If you're here to talk about injustice and suffering (self.antinatalism)

Xixia が 投稿

And in the very same breath you voice your hatred of the "female" population for being the ones to get pregnant or whatever weird half-baked shit you're concluding. Please go back to theredpill and leave this sub sexism-free. I came here for community regarding the torment that is the HUMAN population. So if anyone is going to talk about where women fail in easing the scale of suffering, you'd better open up about all the men who rape women and then deny their reproductive rights( or rather their rights to NOT reproduce) because we're all victims and we're all perpetrators in this bullshit and I will not tolerate this sub getting so one-sided when it's supposed to be looking at the bigger picture.

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[–]NONONATAL [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Agree

[–]giotheflow [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I see misogyny, alt-right [[[racism]]] and [[[white genocide]]], emotion-based illogical arguments in all my favorite subs nowadays. If it was just memeing that's fine cause I love memes, but they're serious. There's a lot of underlying sociological reasons for this, some that have been simmering for years. Me, though... I'm jaded. Now that I understand our lack of free will and hard determinism, I can only shrug my shoulders and continue eating my cereal.

[–]-Fantoche- [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Now that I understand our lack of free will and hard determinism, I can only shrug my shoulders and continue eating my cereal

That's fatalism though.

[–]giotheflow [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Maybe? There's certainly some overlap between fatalism and determinism. If I truly submitted myself to the fates, I'd have kids anyway despite being antinatalist, because some omniscient being willed it so. But I understand causality and the origins of discrete behavior, and in the context here, I'm actually shrugging my shoulders at the misogynists and racists, who will appear indefinitely as long as humans exists. So I continue to eat my cereal and not have kids.

[–]Xibhi [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's slowly creeping in over the past week. Mods need to step in before it escalates.

[–]anarchoaisthesis [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Seriously, misogynists can fuck off.

[–]Sir_Krzysztof [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Actually, in the western society woman and woman alone decides whether or not childbirth happens, a man's role is reduced to that of a sperm donor, sometimes even an uwilling one. So it's not entirely unreasonable to blame primarily them. It's also women, who most actively seek having children, especially past certain age. It's also women who use children for manipulation purposes and money extortion (like forcing a man into marriage, getting child support, what-not), like it's nothing.

[–]giotheflow [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This idea that men have zero agency over their decisions while positing that women have all the agency is misinformed. Both genders were roped into existence and both contribute to the mental and psychological "power game" that goes into creating the next suffering child.

If you truly believe men are so easily manipulated, it follows that they are only mindless sex-whipped fuckbots and to me, that would deserve not an insignificant amount of ire for being so gullible. Fortunately it's not that simple. All humans are to blame for natalism.

[–]Pro-Adoption, Pro-Extinctionadraria [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That still doesn't mean women are the only cause for natalism, all women are natalists, or that their aren't men who are just as guilty. OP is correct. No specific race or gender is guilty, breeding is a human problem.

[–]wuzzum [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Tru

[–]idrmfrn [スコア非表示]  (25子コメント)

Woman here. I am one of the people who believe it is definitely 100% women's fault that people are born. Definitely in first world countries, where abortion is freely available. I know it's 100% my decision on whether my husband and I have a baby.

Men have no reproductive rights.

[–]Pro-Suicide choice, Pro-extinction, Pro-adoptionCynical-Skin [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

This is true, but the man also took the chance by having unprotected sex. It is both genders' fault. How can you say it's only the woman? Men help in creating the baby; that's just a fact.

[–]"When the stork is coming, I fire away"StorkSlayer [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

man also took the chance by having unprotected sex.

Men have few contraceptive options. Basically condoms and vasectomies.

Condoms have a high failure rate when looked at on longer timelines than just 1 year. In a 10 year period, even perfect use of condoms has almost a 20% failure rate. And that's perfect use. I doubt that people can maintain perfect use over a 10-year period. Men have no recourse if this happens.

Vasectomies...I strongly encourage them. They remove user-error from the equation entirely. But there's so much stigma against sterilization (the typical "what if you change your mind"), and it is difficult to get if you are younger. Although I'm obviously against reproduction, I would still encourage men who are on the fence to freeze + snip.

[–]Pro-Suicide choice, Pro-extinction, Pro-adoptionCynical-Skin [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

You're right. But either way, my point is that it not only the woman's fault. The man is at fault, too, and should claim their responsibility for when the child is born.

[–]Days_Gone-By [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

The man is not the person who is primarily to blame for reproduction. It is both the male and females responsibility, but primary responsibility solely rests on the females shoulders. They control absolutely everything post conception..

[–]giotheflow [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

In a more egalitarian society I would agree females have primary responsibility even if both genders share responbility for conception. However, we know we live in a far from perfect world.

I cannot agree that females have absolute control post-conception. This is the cost of an abortion or an abortion pill. At least in America, since most of us are talking about 1st world countries as far as women getting the last word on reproducing, health care isn't cheap.

[–]Days_Gone-By [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm talking comparatively. In comparison to the father of the life, the mother does have absolute control. And she can have courts force the man to pay for the abortion.

What did you mean by "in a more egalitarian society"? Are you saying women are second class citizens in the 1st world? Or are you saying men and women are treated differently, with both having advantages and disadvantages in society? If it's the latter then I agree.

Edit: The last sentence of the first paragraph.

[–]Pro-Suicide choice, Pro-extinction, Pro-adoptionCynical-Skin [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I agree, but It's simple. Don't conceive. Get a vasectomy. Now, you may say that it's not easy to get a vasectomy. Well, neither is getting an abortion. It's expensive and traumatic. It's gruesome and painful. It's not fair on either side.

[–]"When the stork is coming, I fire away"StorkSlayer [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Get a vasectomy.

This should be the take-away here. Get a vasectomy

I understand that these can fail as well, but the risks are quite low when compared to many other day to day risks. I wouldn't castigate someone for having sex when protected by sterilization, even if there is a small risk of pregnancy. I mean, we don't tell people "don't drive to work unless you are ok with dying on your way there (or back)"

[–]LexxiiConn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Men also actually have access to permanent birth control. It's very, very difficult for a childless woman to get a doctor to agree to sterilization.

[–]Pro-Suicide choice, Pro-extinction, Pro-adoptionCynical-Skin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They both consented to conceive. It doesn't matter who controls it after the woman gets pregnant. The man helped make the child making it his fault as well. It rests on both shoulders. Do not commit to something you don't want then complain when the woman doesn't abort. If you both agreed the risk of having a child (which is having sex without a vasc [BC isn't that reliable]) Then neither of them have a stance to complain.

[–]idrmfrn [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Men load the gun; women pull the trigger. At the end of the day, it's still up to the woman whether to commit the action or not.

[–]Pro-Suicide choice, Pro-extinction, Pro-adoptionCynical-Skin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Get a vasectomy. Or get an abortion. Both are difficult. It's not simple to get either but you can't pit it on the woman to make all of the choices. Don't load the gun, how about that? And, in most cases, a woman who is pregnant in a 1st world country probably wanted the kid (meaning they aren't likely to get an abortion). It is then both gender's fault either way.

[–]Pro-Adoption, Pro-Extinctionadraria [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

While I see your points and think that all of your facts are true and important to recognize, I still don't think it means that women are the only source of the problem. I know quite a few men who actively persuaded their wives to have children, and also men are more likely to have sex and then abandon their mating partner to raise their children on their own. While men may not have reproductive rights, we still have responsibilities.

[–]idrmfrn [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

a few men who actively persuaded their wives

I feel like that proves my point that it is 100% the woman's decision, as the only thing the man can do is beg and plead, whether for or against, and hope the woman agrees with him.

[–]Pro-Adoption, Pro-Extinctionadraria [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Yeah but do you not agree that the men are still contributing to the problem, even if it's ultimately the women's decision?

[–]idrmfrn [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I don't see how... I can sit here and tell you to go kill someone. If you actually do it, is it my fault? Are we equally culpable?

[–]Pro-Adoption, Pro-Extinctionadraria [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

No we are not equally culpable, but you are still culpable. You would still be breaking the law by inciting violence, and what you did was still morally wrong. Also it's our whole society that places value on reproducing, even if it's woman who directly carry it out. Our goal as antinatalists is to rid society of its optimism bias because that is the root cause, rather than building a dam in front of the stream that is women's vaginas that may eventually break. (Sorry to be so ridiculously metaphorical!)

[–]the cheerful pessimistmessedupbeyondrepair [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I'm a woman as well, but we should take into consideration social/religious pressures to have a child even if the woman doesn't want one. The truth of the matter is that we still live in a society where people can be incredibly intrusive on the reproductive rights of women, and social pressure in first world countries--although definitely not on par with getting stoned to death for dishonoring the family--isn't a force to be ignored. Women who don't want to breed may be ostracized, manipulated, coerced, and even threatened to keep a baby even if they don't want it.

Of course, this isn't to say that they have no responsibility, but since realistically we're emotional creatures, it's important to acknowledge that sometimes it's a much more complex issue than just pure "choice".

[–]Days_Gone-By [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Are you making the argument that primary blame shouldn't be placed on the person with full reproductive control (post conception) because society "pressures" them into reproducing? This is what your comment looks like to me "Even though women have complete control over reproduction, men and women are equally to blame for reproduction because society tricks women."

[–]-Fantoche- [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Even though women have complete control over reproduction

She just said the opposite. It's not complete control when there are many outside factors influencing you. It's an illusion of control. You are misled into believing they have complete control because you can look at it from a detached perspective while having no awareness of the factors that you can't possibly be aware of.

The whole idea of blame is wrong-minded as well. You can't sensibly blame someone for acting in a way that is consistent with their own nature as if they had your nature instead.

[–]"When the stork is coming, I fire away"StorkSlayer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

In addition to the lack of post-conception options, men also have very few contraceptive options compared to women.

[–]Pro-adoption, anti-breeding, pro-choice on suicidejunkurosu [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Abortion is a stigmatized issue that can lead to disownment, abuse, shaming and in many conservative states, abortion clinics are few and far between and at that, legislation is constantly trying to get passed to throw more hurdles in the way since they can't get rid of abortion for good.

[–]idrmfrn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Causing suffering and death seems like it should be just as stigmatized though...

[–]LexxiiConn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You can be a woman and a raging misogynist, as you prove.

[–]triviallife [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You stated a fact with zero appeal to feelings. Respect.

[–]Pro-adoption, anti-breeding, pro-choice on suicidejunkurosu [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Men are just as complicit in breeding as women are. It takes two to tango in nearly all cases- minus heinious things like someone lying about or tampering with birth control/contraceptives, rape, ect. Women are just the ones who go through the act of reproduction visibily. While I'm disgusted by pregnant women, and the concept of pregnancy in general, being misogynistic towards them accomplishes nothing.

[–]N0LongerHum4n [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I agree! This mgtow/redpill shit needs to gtfo. I blame them equally it takes two to make a baby if they had use some sort of birth control or have a vasectomy/tubes tied then there would be no problems. I don't blame my mother over my father I blame them both equally. As for the abortion part people shouldn't conceive a baby to begin with. IT TAKES TWO NOT ONE. The way society is they are trying to make people conceive more children. Disgusting

[–]Dumb-reality [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Women have the final say, so they probably have a higher responsibility. However, if all men suddenly decided they didn't want children, that would be it. So, yes, women are more responsible, but we can't just exempt men like that, especially in societies where abortion isn't widely available.

[–]LexxiiConn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This sub is basically a Venn diagram of misogyny and white supremacy, with edgy teenagers being the middle overlapping bit. Are there any actual anti-natalism subs?

[–]Pro-Adoption, Pro-Extinctionadraria [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Men are just as critical for the baby making process as women. Both genders are to blame!

[–]Pro-Suicide choice, Pro-extinction, Pro-adoptionCynical-Skin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's not just the woman, you are right! It takes two to make one! Sperm and an egg.

[–]working-as-intended [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Looks like /u/adraria was right all this time.

I must be blind.

[–]Pro-Adoption, Pro-Extinctionadraria [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You can't read everything on a subreddit

[–]PotatoBuddha [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Agreed, we are all in this together. We are all victims and we are all to blame.

[–]ArmedBastard [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Well women are the ones who choose to have babies. Childbirth because of rape is very rare, at least in the west. If you're concerned about that then you should focus on the Islamic world and Africa.

[–]Pro-Suicide choice, Pro-extinction, Pro-adoptionCynical-Skin [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

the men choose it as well.

[–]ArmedBastard [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The men choose in the sense that they accept moral responsibility for a potential child when they have penetrative sex (assuming they're fertile). But it's the women who ultimately have the say so. They have the wombs. If the women all said no then there'd be no more babies. That's why the AN men who claim moral pride in not having a child annoy me a bit. Men can't have children. It's mostly the responsibility of women.

[–]Pro-Suicide choice, Pro-extinction, Pro-adoptionCynical-Skin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They should both say no like tf. I agree that the woman should say no.

[–]Solid_SockEye_Salmon [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Can someone hook me up with links to the questionable material?

[–]fleshisweakness [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

It's not "weird or half-baked shit" to hate women for getting pregnant. It's perfectly logical and consistent with anti-natalism. If women didn't get pregnant and birth any more children, the pain would cease, the next generation's pain at least. Or do you deny this? Every time a woman gives birth, the suffering continues. It's not difficult to understand.

[–]forever__sleep [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

If women didn't get pregnant

I wonder, who exactly impregnates them? Why do you let men off the hook?

[–]Pro-Suicide choice, Pro-extinction, Pro-adoptionCynical-Skin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Exactly. Men are required to create it. They are both to blame.

[–]"When the stork is coming, I fire away"StorkSlayer [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

If women didn't get pregnant

The pregnancy itself is just as much the man's fault.

Carrying it to term, and actually giving birth, is a separate conversation. However, keep in mind that many men are pro-life and seek to prohibit/limit abortion, as well as propagating social stigma against abortion.

Even if abortion is legal, who want to be called a "murderer" or face being ostracized, disowned by family, etc. The stigma against abortion is a major obstacle that needs to be overcome.

When you hate on women, your hate is misplaced. I think the true culprit is religious propaganda.

[–]fleshisweakness [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Why so many excuses? Endless attempts at blame shifting. I don't think women are above or beyond criticism. Every time an excuse is offered it means it is more likely more children will be birthed, and the cycle of suffering carries on. Choice is consequent. The way this discussion is progressing, anyone would think women were entirely blameless, each one a helpless victim deserving boundless sympathy. The real victims are the children they're determined to give birth to, no matter what.

[–]giotheflow [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

You wrongfully assume we have choice. Free will is a myth, our environment's dictated every experience that led to our beliefs and this conversation.

Women didn't choose their XX chromosomes at birth, neither did men choose their XY chromosomes. Your hate is misdirected, it's not an us versus them zero sum game. Everyone loses.

[–]fleshisweakness [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If what you say is correct then I cannot/ could not help hating, and am therefore completely blameless, along with everyone else. Everyone doesn't have to lose. We have already lost, as soon as we are born. The point is - it's simple to avoid more loss, more "losers" - stop giving birth to them. Don't create another generation of sufferers. The responsibility for this ultimately falls on women's shoulders, whether you want to pretend otherwise or not. I don't see many women facing up to that responsibility. I don't see many who are even aware of it.