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This sub is getting weird (self.cscareerquestions)

datapersondata @ blue apron が 投稿

In light of the two recent posts on creating fake job/internship postings, can we as a sub come together and just...stop? Please. Stop.

This shit is weird. Not "interesting", not "deep" or "revealing about the tech industry", not "an unseen dataset". It's weird. Nobody does this — nobody.

The main posts are bad enough – posting fake jobs to look at the applicants? This is pathetic. In the time you took to put up those posts, collect resumes, and review the submissions, you could have picked up a tutorial on learning a new framework.

The comments are doubly as terrifying. Questions about the applicants? There are so many ethical lines you're crossing by asking questions about school, portfolio, current employment, etc. These are real people whose data you solicited literally without their consent to treat like they're lab rats. It's shameful. It is neurotic. It is sad in every sense of the word.

Analyzing other candidates is a thin veil over your blatant insecurities. Yes, the field is getting more saturated (a consequence of computer science becoming more and more vital to the working world) — who gives a damn? Focus on yourself. Focus on getting good. Neuroticism is difficult to control once you've planted the seed, and it's not a good look at all.

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[–]Mickhead 77 ポイント78 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree completely. If the OP of that post actually did what they claimed they did it was highly unethical and they wasted the time of a lot of people who are skilled, educated, and experienced. They took vast amounts of highly sensitive personal data that was given to them under false pretenses. If anyone here has ever criticized Google or Facebook about how they collect people's personal information their jaws should be on the ground at what that person did.

Secondly, there's absolutely no guarantee that the person is telling the truth. About any of it. They could be lying about having done it at all. They could have done the experiment and made up the data to try to discourage their competition. The experiment could be legit, the data could be legit, and the person could be well meaning, but their interpretation of the data could be way off. The person could just be lying about everything and trolling this sub, which is filled to the brim with high-strung, cynical people anxious about their futures who are ready to believe anything.

This is why science is done the way it's done. No one is beholden to the word of a single person. All that person has done is spread a bunch of fear, uncertainty, and despair in a community that is at its best when it's doing the opposite.

EDIT: Check out the Stack Overflow 2017 Developer's survey for a real substantive look at what you're up against as a prospective employee. Important takeaway: only 13.9% of developers found their job through a general-purpose job board (e.g. Indeed).

[–]Guinasaur 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm of the theory that there's a concerted effort to discourage people from applying to positions in certain regions under the false pretense that the market is saturated. Over the last week or so there have been more and more posts and comments about how impossible it is to get a job in silicon valley. This post today is just another example of trying to discourage people from applying in certain markers, in my opinion.

[–]canadianmoving 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, it is easy to look at the post and think of the findings first, since it is quite intriguing. But we need to step back and realize how unethical and possibly illegal something like this is.

It is completely unethical to lie for the purpose of collecting personal information for personal gain. Period. Isn't that the definition of a scam? We already have issues with data collection by large corporations.

That being said, the onus is on Indeed and job posting websites to verify their sources. As job seekers, we have to place blind trust with the system.

TBH I didn't really consider the possibility of fake job postings. I usually verify the source by looking for a website and reviews. But, it must be easy to duplicate an existing job posting for the same company. So this makes me completely lose trust with the legitimacy of job postings on Indeed. I will no longer use that platform to make the request, but rather grab emails with the company domains and directly send an email of my application.

[–]darexinfinitySoftware Engineer 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (1子コメント)

While it's not the best and I hope it doesn't continue, I would say it's sort of beats the delusional atmosphere of this sub.

[–]bktechnite 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which is what? For me I always find people posting about their 100k starting salary as a kind of unrealistic representation of the experience. Everything else is pretty truthful.

[–]recursion4lyfe 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (2子コメント)

not to mention potentially illegal as well. When you create a fake job ad and collect people's information (here in the form of resumes), in the US there are regulations on how you handle, store and dispose such information. I'm pretty sure those who submitted to the fake ad can file a lawsuit if they can find out who the faker is.

[–]MasterOfEECS 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They probably use indeed, which should have a terms of service that covers it. I imagine that it would be Indeed's job to take down fake listing. I don't think there's any issue beyond that.

[–]0xF00BFOAB 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What laws and regulations? Please, I'm interested in knowing more.

[–]OhGoodOhMan 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The first one was funny, but I hope (and think) it won't become a trend. One doesn't really learn much other than there's a shit ton of seemingly qualified applicants for each job, which if you weren't convinced of before, well...

[–]cocomoco1 61 ポイント62 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I found that post pretty interesting honestly.

[–]kerplomp 53 ポイント54 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Interesting and questionably ethical are not mutually exclusive. While the posts were informative, OP makes a good point.

[–]tipitipitop 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

agreed

[–]nermid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting and questionably ethical are not mutually exclusive

Facebook manipulating its users' emotions to make them depressed was super interesting, for instance.

[–]azrathud 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/cscareerquestions aka Unit 731

[–]arrabial 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I agree with you that it's pretty disgusting that they did that.

But the way you wrote your post makes me want to disagree with you. Seeing the way you used bold words, italics, and quotation marks gives me this instinctive opposition to your post, even though I thought the exact same things when I saw the fake job and internship postings.

[–]imariaprime 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So your ethical considerations take a backseat to your typographical preferences? Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

[–]azrathud 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can agree with what someone says but not the way they say it. aka "your not wrong, you're just an asshole" not that OP is an asshole.

[–]arrabial 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I said I agreed with the OP in my very first sentence. You're misunderstanding me when you're talking about my ethical considerations taking a backseat.

The point I was trying to make was that presentation matters. A bad spokesperson can push away people that might otherwise be convinced.

The way this post was written came off as condescending and preachy. Even though I agreed with him, and I wasn't the one being preached to, I don't like agreeing with people who are condescending.

Now think about people who came in disagreeing with him. Is calling them pathetic in italics and shameful in bold going to change their minds? What if they just didn't think through why it was wrong? Someone explaining it to them with a little bit of empathy might change their minds, but something like this is just going to make them dig their heels in.

[–]techfronic 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (2子コメント)

They're not doxxing any specific person. TBH it's more interesting than the typical "interview with Epic plz help" or "google vs MSFT" posts

[–]datapersondata @ blue apron[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're right: they aren't. That would be a clear violation of Reddit's rules.

The problem lies in the fact that this anonymous OP has zero moral obligation or accountability for their actions if they were to release this data.

TBH it's more interesting than the typical "interview with Epic plz help" or "google vs MSFT" posts

Don't conflate genuine interest with morbid interest. It's wrong, and from the outside-in it looks like a huge circlejerk of insecurity.

[–]techfronic 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The problem lies in the fact that this anonymous OP has zero moral obligation or accountability for their actions if they were to release this data.

But they haven't. Releasing the data is completely orthogonal to their post and this subreddit (because if they released the data, their post and the data would get deleted)

[–]Lynchmobb 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Assuming these posts aren't just works of fiction.

[–]notreallenny 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

posting fake jobs to look at the applicants

It's actually a common practice among recruiters, they do that to build their resume database. Also many companies post job openings as a part of labor market test in employer-based green card process with the only purpose to reject every potential candidate.

Regarding those post, I think they were useful to the community.

[–]fj333 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well said.

[–]absthrow1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Let's make this sub great again.

[–]wexlo 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I think you are significantly overreacting by calling it weird and pathetic. Its nothing more than a harmless little experiment

In the time you took to put up those posts, collect resumes, and review the submissions, you could have picked up a tutorial on learning a new framework.

I doubt it, unless you are a very quick learner. They couldnt have taken much time

No one is disclosing the applicants' actual identities either

[–]lkezboaUnicorn Intern 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I agree with OP.

It's not harmless because this people probably spent time polishing their resumes to give it to you for a fake experiment. It could also lower their self esteem when they get no response.

Although I personally would never email my resumé to a random person on reddit in hopes for a job. I think it's pretty sick to lie just to get access to people's personal information and look at their accomplishments.

[–]wexlo 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It could also lower their self esteem when they get no response.

Isnt it completely standard/expected to get no response when applying online? Im always surprised when i actually get rejection emails to online applications because companies usually dont ever respond

I mean yeah it sucks they ended up applying for something that ended up being fake but online applications usually just involve uploading resume and dont take long. If they were made to go through hell like taleo/brassring just for a fake job that doesnt exist then yeah it would be fucked up

[–]cdells 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you can take anything away from this subreddit it's that self esteem is not a concern here. So many members of this community berate and put down other users on the daily it's disgusting.

Edit: a letter.

[–]elliotbotSoftware Data Engineer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What? I feel like this sub is pretty supportive tbh, especially in the daily chat and resume advice threads

[–]datapersondata @ blue apron[S] 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think you are significantly overreacting by calling it weird and pathetic. Its nothing more than a harmless little experiment

It's pretty damning. Collecting user data without their explicit consent? Check. Posting about it to their online friends? Check. Others requesting that they divulge statistics on the population? Check. Casual xenophobia towards students and professionals from India and China? Check.

I like to think I can take a joke sometimes, but there is actually something wrong about this post getting so many upvotes. It's really, really sad.

I doubt it, unless you are a very quick learner. They couldnt have taken much time

Who cares how much time it actually took! The original post mentions they checked on it two days later — so it took at least some time over two days. You don't have to learn everything in two days, but that's time over two days you spent feeding an insecurity rather than improving yourself. Again, it is disappointing.

No one is disclosing the applicants' actual identities either

This is the crux of the problem. The OP has zero moral obligation to keep this data private. If they felt like it, they can just as easily release that data. This is why research goes through an ethics committee whenever it deals with something even remotely controversial — because these "innocuous" experiments have much larger impacts. If you were an employer and saw your employee had applied for this role, would you think as highly of them?

Look: I can empathize with feelings of insecurity. I can empathize with feeling like you are getting lost in the sea of talent.

I cannot empathize with false job posts for the sake of a science project. I cannot empathize with users asking for data on the population. I cannot empathize with misleading honest human beings and soliciting their data just to turn around and post it over the internet. No matter how you spin this, it is wrong. Face your insecurity before poking at others'.

[–]starshappyhunting 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're getting downvoted but I'm totally with you, lying to people like this is a total douche move.

[–]Itsmedudeman 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean, it's wasting a lot of people's time for a fake advertisement. It's not the end of the world, but if it was me who had to wade through fake job listings I'd be somewhat pissed.

[–]yoursuicide 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like to think I can not sympathize with feelings of insecurity.

[–]lottadoggos 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

All they had to do was sign up for LinkedIn Premium to see the same sort of data about job postings

[–]GoogleSearch-Arma2OA -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

although I do not totally disagree with the poster who created fake job/internship, I still agree with what you said about the Neuroticism.

[–]rhoramaSoftware Engineer 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, see, it's only bad when the government secretly collects your information. When we do it we're being diligent citizens.

Next I'm going to MitM all my university's routers and come up with stats for where the CS majors get job offers.

[–]cdells -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow, another user on this sub that doesn't act as if he/she is the next Steve Jobs.

I agree with you 100%.

[–]BB611Postbac Student looking for internship -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

literally without their consent

I wouldn't characterize submitting a resume to be "without consent". Any applicant can be fairly assured that their resume will be compared to other applicants', and frankly as long as the OP doesn't release specific identifiable information I don't really see the issue with publicizing it.

[–]fj333 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wouldn't characterize submitting a resume to be "without consent"

Consent given under a false premise doesn't count. If you hand me a stack of money in exchange for my TV, and then I say "psych! I don't have a TV! Thanks for consenting to give me your money!" then I'm an asshole, and your consent never existed.

[–]CuckPlusPlus -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

very nice, are you a lawyer? /r/legaladvice could use you

[–]genderboxes 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But it is without consent because the applicants were led to believe that they were applying to an actual job listing, not someone's personal curiosity. If the listing/ad said "hey send me your resumes because I want to look at them and understand the competition" that'd be different, and presumably a lot of those people wouldn't have decided to give their personal information via resume.

[–]entitledmillennial12 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nobody does this — nobody.

Recruiting agencies post fake or glorify postings for shitty / non-existing jobs and farm resumes, to sell to third party companies.

so many ethical lines you're crossing by asking questions about school, portfolio, current employment, etc

So everything on your LinkedIn account. You would want more people to checkout your linkedin page anyway. Also if you go on Indeed I believe you can search for other people's resumes which they explicitly marked public for anyone else to see.

the field is getting more saturated [...] — who gives a damn?

By how much? Do I have the luxury to get a master degree or should I start networking more to keep the bottom line? These are the decisions you ultimately need to make to give yourself an edge

Focus on yourself. Focus on getting good.

You probably thought you'll land an amazing job at a prestige company with your 3.9 GPA right after college but big firms prefer to hire from top indian and chinese schools because students there works harder than you ever will and work longer hours for lesser pay to keep their h1b. But yes, you won't see this as an issue until you realize how hard it is to get your foot in the door

You are over-emphasizing moral principles by using words like "weird", "shameful", "sad", "ethical", "consent". There are real social issues in this late state capitalism that are not taught in school and no one talks about.

[–]datapersondata @ blue apron[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Recruiting agencies post fake or glorify postings for shitty / non-existing jobs and farm resumes, to sell to third party companies.

Its existence doesn't excuse its morally wrong nature. Does it seem fair or right for an agency to do that? Resumes can have very personal information (phone number, address, etc.) that almost always is not visible to anyone outside the company of intent — especially not other applicants.

So everything on your LinkedIn account. Also if you go on Indeed I believe you can search for other people's resumes which they explicitly marked public for anyone else to see.

What? If I have an account on LinkedIn, I have explicitly allowed LinkedIn to display my information. The explicit consent (as put forth in their TOS) and proper disclosure of what information gets shared at all times makes a world of a difference between a public LinkedIn versus a private application.

By how much? Do I have the luxury to get a master degree or should I start networking more to keep the bottom line? These are the decisions you ultimately need to make to give yourself an edge

The actions you take are not exclusive: you can pursue a masters degree while also networking.

You probably thought you'll land an amazing job at a prestige company with your 3.9 GPA right after college but big firms prefer to hire from top indian and chinese schools because students there works harder than you ever will and work longer hours for lesser pay to keep their h1b while you bitch about how your boss is a total shithead for taking all your credits.

I personally have something like a 3.25 – certainly nothing to brag about – but who puts forth this idea that good grades are all you need? If you really think employers value someone with a 3.9 GPA versus someone with real-world experience, you've unfortunately been swindled.

You are over-emphasizing moral principles by using words like "weird", "shameful", "sad", "ethical", "consent". There are real social issues in this late state capitalism that are not taught in school and no one talks about.

There likely are real social issues, but posting fake jobs/internships and luring people to casual analyses of the data is certainly a sub-optimal (indeed, it's piss-poor) approach to doing so. I also have to disagree: the moral considerations are vital in having these conversations — we usually take them for granted, but what those users did was morally wrong.

[–]smbac -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

who gives a damn? Focus on yourself.

People who want jobs? You probably won't get hired if you don't beat the competition

[–]datapersondata @ blue apron[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right, but you definitely won't get hired if you're too busy worrying about the competition and putting up fake job posts.

[–]eggn00dles -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

i just find the open office hate really fucking strange around here. its like merely suggesting it's a valid way to work gets you downvoted through the 7 circles of hell.

edit: yeah fucking weirdo's its ok to forge an identity cause you can't get a job, but enjoying speaking to your co-workers is wrong.

[–]cc_fgibbo -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So this makes me want to disagree with you, lying to people's time for a fake ad.