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worldnews

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[–]JManRomania 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
If we are to be citizens, not subjects, then we must have the right to assembly, and the right to arm ourselves.
“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.” - Blair

The ability to carry a weapon is the hallmark of a free person, along with literacy.
Slaves, and free blacks in the US were the targets of the earliest American gun control measures - some of the measures simply introduced costs that most whites could pay, but nearly no blacks were able to.
Almost like a poll tax.
That said, you don't need to go traipsing around with a rifle slung on your shoulder, but it is your right as a free citizen of the republic.
[–]azthal [score hidden]  (3 children)
You tell me how well your pea shooter serves you the next time you try to take down the government and it's tanks and jet fighters.
There's not a single example in modern history of an armed civilian uprising that has achieved a governmental change. Not one.
This might have been a valid claim back in the 18th century and before, when the power level between weapons were more even. Today? Armed revolutionaries either become terrorists, or they become dead. They don't become successful at overthrowing a rogue government.
[–]JManRomania [score hidden]  (2 children)
You tell me how well your pea shooter serves you the next time you try to take down the government and it's tanks and jet fighters.
You cannot control an entire country with tanks, fighters, or battleships.
A fighter jet cannot stand on street corners, handing out no-assembly edicts.
A fighter jet cannot kick in your door at 3AM to search your house for contraband.
A fighter jet is useless for maintaining a police state.
Police are needed to maintain a police state.
No matter how many police you have, they will always be outnumbered by the citizenry. Even in East Germany.
This is why it is vital for your police to be as well-armed as possible, and for your citizenry to be as disarmed as possible.
When every random citizen has a handgun concealed on them, kicking in doors becomes a lot fucking riskier when the gunfire is going both ways.
There's not a single example in modern history of an armed civilian uprising that has achieved a governmental change. Not one.
The 1989 Romanian Revolution is one.
The military stripped off their colors, and fought alongside civilians.
But that doesn't count because the military members were previously in the military!
How about South Africa? The blacks kept fighting the Afrikaners, until they relented, and changed the SA government.
But there was external political pressure, which totally invalidates the efforts of South African resistance!
I've got one! You're not going to like it, but it counts:
The post-Cold War Taliban takeover of Afghanistan.
But the US helped them a while ago, and despite having subsequently abandoned Afghanistan, that support totally invalidates the actions of individual Afghan civilians!
...sigh.
This might have been a valid claim back in the 18th century and before, when the power level between weapons were more even. Today? Armed revolutionaries either become terrorists, or they become dead.
...being labeled a terrorist by an external party suddenly strips them of their citizenship status?
Or are they still armed civilians?
They don't become successful at overthrowing a rogue government.
If we changed the designation to "terrorist", I think we could both agree on some successes.
But civilians aren't terrorists, eh?
[–]azthal [score hidden]  (1 child)
The definition of terrorist is very, very simple. You attack civilians in order to inspire fear our of political motivations.
That is what every single revolution has ended up becoming, unless it was aided by an actual state actor for arms, be it an internal military coup (Say, as in Romania) or external help (Afghanistan as you meantion here, or more recently Ukraine).
You have still been unable to give a single example of a government being overthrown where civilians armed with their own private weapons have played any significant role. It just doesn't happen.
[–]JManRomania [score hidden]  (0 children)
I'd like to start by asking what you consider "modern".
The definition of terrorist is very, very simple. You attack civilians in order to inspire fear our of political motivations.
So if the IRA bombed a military base, and only uniformed soldiers were hurt, is that still terrorism?

That is what every single revolution has ended up becoming, unless it was aided by an actual state actor for arms, be it an internal military coup (Say, as in Romania)
This is where we differ - the military is made up of civilians, yes?
The US allows paramilitarism to a very far extent - all nuclear weapons in the US are manufactured, designed, and owned (however briefly) by privately-owned corporations, that could easily be owned by one person. IIRC, one of the nuclear assembly companies may have been owned by one person.
Corporate personhood aside, let's just say you're now the sole owner of Lockheed Martin.
Lockheed has a special permit, that's like an FFL, but for nuclear weapons. That permit is designed to be issued to private individuals or corporations.
THEORETICALLY, Lockheed could say "fuck it", and side with the civilians. As could every other private arms manufacturer, owned by a US citizen (b/c of ITAR, all of them).
That's the power of citizen revolutions.

or external help (Afghanistan as you meantion here, or more recently Ukraine).
Why bother, then? We might as well join the 20,000 Americans who commit gun suicide every year, if you're saying there's no hope, simply because there's no past events that fit your definition.
You have still been unable to give a single example of a government being overthrown where civilians armed with their own private weapons have played any significant role.
I did, but as we've both said, there's mitigating factors that make it totally different guise.
It just doesn't happen.
Yeah, and nobody achieved powered flight, for a long time.
It just didn't happen.
That's your ultimate rationale - that the current situation makes success highly unlikely - you've already conceded the point that a just civilian revolution can happen, which is very important.
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