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Dear Americans, please stop apologizing on behalf of Americans. You don't actually represent them and anyway, we already knew it. Signed, Germans and expats (including other Americans). (self.germany)

FarleyFinsterBayern が 投稿

Do something to fix the problem. Protests might be fun but if you really want to change things, stop reading nonsense, demand NEWS from your "news"papers, and get better people elected. You start doing that with local and regional elected offices.

Update: When I wrote "news" I meant getting actual information from legitimate, reliable, and verifiable sources, not page view mills and echo chambers. When I wrote "change", I wasn't referring to party allegiance but to competence.

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[–]TeemperorAllgäu! 52 ポイント53 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Germany one year ago: Hey Iranians/Chinese/Russians, we know that only your government is shit, but you're mostly chill people.

Germany now: Hey Iranians/Chinese/Russians/... Americans, we know that only your government is shit, but you're mostly chill people. Goddamit US, you're not supposed to be in that list!

[–]GreatName4 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There were significant criticisms of the US under democratic control too. One big indicator that something is fundamentally wrong is that Michael Froman at Citygroup had a list of cabinet picks way before Obama got to be president. Citygroup was the first to be bailed out.

Other indications are for instance the pied piper email attachment in the Podesta leak, implying that they actively seek the worst in each other. Bernie Sanders was treated very badly by the media too, and the two-party and electoral system is designed to keep such people out. Quite broken.

I won't repeat some of the sordid history of the US, other that it includes such things as Lyndon Johnson not revealing that Nixon sabotaged a ceasefire costing the US tens of thousands of lives, and the Vietnamese more. But i will say that more recent events like gloating over a(later failed)Venezuela coup in 2002, or involvement in the Honduran coup in 2009, or the drone war, or the more known activities Iraq, Afghanistan, Jemen show that the sordid history is not over.

It has always been a country with a lot of problems and bad actors in high places.

Not that the EU is problem-free. Infact, i suspect there are way too many business ties in national parliaments, and the EU itself even worse, and there the commision gets to make proposals, and they have yet more ties.(which like the US system, to be frank looks to me like it is designed for it) Some countries like Poland and Hungary have.... democratic deficits.

In the Netherlands, at least, even just unsure about the skill level of the politicians.(edit: i think it is largely due to ideas about their role) Quite unimaginative knee-jerk reaction to Turkey wanting to send politicians about the referendum. And in one case, in a debate in a school in a diverse neighbourhood, they started about taxes and stuff. DENK comes in, talks about discrimination at the workplace.(as a commenter in Nieuwe Maan noted) Also i do wish DENK was more clearly asked about their position on Erdogan. Especiallly now, because of course, now they have years to explain it to their followers, that Erdogan is a bad guy, and how it does and does not reflect on Turkey. And not to be a little emo bitch about it.

Edit: of course in no-way exhaustive. For instance, didn't even mention South vs North prosperity problem in the EU. I'd say solidarity is an issue but i.e. Greece is paying off debts with a lot of the money they get. It is an infinite well, it will tire out solidarity eventually...

[–]bjornartl 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (15子コメント)

The difference is that Russia and China dont have democrazy or free speech. People are trying to speak up and change things but they're being killed for doing it. Basically they're hostages.

Americans cant hide behind that excuse. Although not everyone agrees with Trump, it does have a culture that normalizes that sort of behaviour to such a large degree that he was voted in as President. Even having him, or anyone in the GOP win a primary is disgusting enough.

[–]eulerup 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I don't like Trump any more than the next guy, but you have to understand that the GOP actually does represent the values and beliefs of a large portion of Americans, and labeling the whole party as "disgusting" invalidates their beliefs and does nothing to solve the problem.

The only way to change is through other people. I can call my legislators all I want (everyone who represents me is a Democrat, so it won't even make them to anything they wouldn't have done anyway), but if people in other parts of the country are calling their representatives and telling them to do the opposite, it doesn't do any good. I'm really frustrated with the state of American politics right now, but demonizing the other side and pretending like all left wing Americans need to do is speak up more is counterproductive.

[–]bjornartl 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (6子コメント)

but you have to understand that the GOP actually does represent the values and beliefs of a large portion of Americans

That's what I understand and it's exactly why it's disgusting. Every nation will have some nutjob spouting hatred. The difference with the US is that it's so much more acecpted, and so much less condemned. If you removed Trump, Mike Pence or anyone else in office, the next leader is always gonna be another backwards bible-thumping racist piece of shit as long as republicans has the power. Because that's the kind of attitudes that gets a lot of republican votes.

[–]eulerup 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Your comment was basically a Clinton "basket of deplorables" statement. No amount of free speech will change beliefs if the people doing the speaking view those who disagree with them as "other".

You think if I stand around telling people who had nowhere near the access to opportunities I did, have had religious beliefs drilled into them since they came out of the womb, and see no way out of their current shitty economic position that they're disgusting for long enough, that they should be ashamed of everything they see themselves as, that will somehow change their mind? No? Well I must just be making excuses then, since obviously as an American with free speech it's so easy to change things.

[–]bjornartl 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's the culture, the attitudes and oppinions, as well as the social structures that enforces them that are deplorable. Not necessarily the people themselves.

I understand that it's hard to put aside the faith in god when all your friends, family etc will excommunicate you for questioning it. But it's still disgusting to have that kinda culture where people get trapped in a system that teaches you not to question god from the day you are born.

What's even more disgusting is that it's so acceptable to push those believes on others, by laws as well. There's an idea that if you dont want to be discriminated against, then dont discriminate against others. Republican voters however seems quite happy to take away eeryone elses rights to choose how to live their lives if it doesnt match their own way of living. It's not just about believing in god, but about believing in god in the exact same way they do. They want a theocratic state. If you try to enforce a part of the bible they dont like it would be pursecution, but if you enforce a part of the bible that's been stretched to match their personal views then of course it should be forced on everyone.

I'm aware that not every republican feels that way. But the culture as a whole is disgusting, and too many of the ones that dont feel that way still feel okay about it enough to vote for it just so their rifles can be fully automatic or some other trivial factor like that.

TL;DR It's not the people, but the sum of the culture.

[–]eulerup 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with you that it sucks, but it's unclear to me, exactly, how free speech among those who don't want it to be this way can help solve the problem. It's very difficult to change people who have no interest in changing.

[–]Nunya-Business-Man 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What you fail to recognize is that your attitude and the fact that is is so wide spread is why Trump won. Leftist on the Left Coast and the North East think everyone in between is a uneducated hick who shouldn't have a say in anything because they want their immigration laws enforced and people that break those laws thrown out on their asses.

People have honest concerns and whether you call them deplorable or disgusting only makes YOU look irrational, hateful, and bigoted.

[–]VelvetElvis 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Immigration is a matter of civil, not criminal law. Immigration violation is literally not a crime and never has been.

[–]Dr--Awkward -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sadly, this could also be said to many on the left in America.

[–]GiantSpaceWhaleUSA 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The difference is that Russia and China dont have democrazy or free speech. Americans cant hide behind that excuse

True, but a lot of people would disagree with that. Its really only school children and extremely naive adults who still believe they have these American democratic values. Our fundamental constitutional rights have been trampled on so much over the last few decades, and now we have them in name only.

[–]notapantsdayNovoruppinsk 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Not an American, so take it with a grain of salt, but come on... You can still freely state your opinion. If a journalist is critical of Trump, they may not be invited into the white house anymore (that is a bit worrying), but there is no way that they would be locked up in prison as it happens in Turkey or China. The same is even more true for the average Joe.

[–]davidearlmcd -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

but there is no way that they would be locked up in prison...

oh you sweet summer child.

[–]GiantSpaceWhaleUSA -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Trump has had journalists arrested for simply covering the news. And you can't exactly state your opinion anyways, because if its against the current administration, it'll probably be deemed as "dangerous" and you'll be put onto some watch list. American citizens have gone missing or outright killed for their opinions recently. Cant really peacefully protest, either, because police in civilian clothes start violence, it doesn't just happen in other countries. Protesters against the keystone pipeline were were met with brutal force - freezing cold water, tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullet, real bullets; one woman lost her arm. They protested for like 6 months and Obama eventually stepped in to block the pipeline, but now Trump is having it built anyways.

There's an extremely long laundry list of links that prove what I just said that I have seen from other redditors in the past, but here's a few that I could find in a moment's notice.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/business/media/journalists-arrested-trump-inauguration.html?_r=0

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/25/6-journalists-arrested-in-dc-while-covering-donald/

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/24/us/dakota-pipeline-sophia-wilansky.html

[–]boqMinga 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Trump has had journalists arrested

No, he hasn't. Trump doesn't run the DC police. No president runs any local law enforcement.

[–]Tug_Phelps 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And this is why its so hard to get a real understanding of whats going on. Bullshit from the right, bullshit from the left.

[–]dikduk [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

In Germany, a completely harmless pensioner lost an eye because he was protesting against a train station. And several fiscal intelligence officers were declared paranoid and fired because they were investigating the wrong people.

These things happen everywhere, and we should be worried every time. But you wouldn't call Germany totalitarian state. Some western countries may turn totalitarian in the next decade or so, but as long as people openly make fun of their leaders on TV, we're not quite there yet.

[–]Zitronensalat 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Goddamit US, you're not supposed to be in that list!

The list is supposed to be empty.

[–]sm_raleigh 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (6子コメント)

and get better people elected

Good luck on that one when the country is in a 50/50 split. I think you are oversimplying things and do not realize the enormous amount of effort behind this statement.

[–]skraper 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But you have to try to change things. If you don't even start trying nothing is going to change. If you start maybe more people will see it and maybe they start changing things. Not doing anything but then complaining about it is doing no one any good and certainly will not change anything.

[–]warlock27 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Know that less than half the country supported Trump at the time of election, something like 45-46%, and with his plummeting approval rating, it's likely much less than that. Between the Russian allegations and the midterm elections in 2018, we may be rid of this embarrassment before 2020.

[–]Nunya-Business-Man 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

FYI, he won 31 states. The United States is not a direct democracy.

[–]warlock27 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is true, but it does not change the fact that a majority of voting Americans did not support Trump and it is likely that even more do not support him now.

He is no leader of the people.

[–]Nunya-Business-Man -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Still better than Clinton...

[–]daniel740 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Direct elections do not equal direct democracy.

[–]KathrinPissingerwhassup? 64 ポイント65 ポイント  (20子コメント)

I second this, to some extent. It's strange that people are apologizing over a handshake, when there is so much more important stuff to worry about. At the end of the day, I don't think it hurts Merkel's or our national pride if he shakes her hand, but at the same time, he has and is putting forward some REALLY damaging policies that require much more than just an apology.

[–]bass_hertz_my_ears 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm confused. Why are people apologizing over a handshake?

[–]LichenoItaly 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

My handshake brings all the boys to the yard, And they're like. It's better than yours, Damn right, It's better than yours,

[–]AllAboutMeMedia 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can teach you, but I have to charge the american taxpayers for my security detail at Mar a lago, the south white house, so that you can watch my fat ass play golf, and also hold an impromptu national security meeting out in the open for a great photo op....damn right.

[–]ZubiZoneUSA 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree no need to apologize.

[–]justforlittlebit 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I apologized because given his disastrous policies and basic insanity, I thought the least he could do was be civil. Even in this I was disappointed. Now I have no more expectations and I feel better.

[–]SiscoSquared 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (4子コメント)

To be fair, your message here is not representative of Germans and expats...

[–]Vespasianus 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (3子コメント)

In that vein, on behalf of all Dutch people I apologise for the NSDAP. Apparently it was actually our fault and you guys got blamed for it. Our bad.

Many thanks to Erdogan for bringing this sensitive topic to light so tactfully.

[–]SerLaron 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, one of you lot lit the Reichstag on fire, or at least got blamed for it.

[–]KirbyKingEddyHessen 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's nothing to apologize for, dear dutch friends. All Germans are sincerely sorry you get associated with us all the time

[–]bicyleday 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Finally someone takes the blame. Apology accepted.

[–]BadLeroyBrown 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The citizens of a country feeling collective guilt around the actions of some extremists isn't unique to Americans. But thanks for the reminder, Germany.

[–]Dragon9770 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

To be fair, as a American currently studying in Berlin (arrived at start of February), Trump is the go to topic with every single German. Tour guide finds out you are a group of Americans? Mention Trump. People are bar discern your accent? Bring up Trump. Its not even in a negative sense, but the sheer pervasiveness of the topic is probably leading a bunch of people to handwave the topic with an 'apology'.

At the very least, that has been my own experience, and that of other American students I interact with. And yes, I wonder at how different my home will be when I go back.

[–]caffeinep0weredScotland (Formerly Rheinland-Pfalz) 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be fair, as a American currently studying in Berlin (arrived at start of February), Trump is the go to topic with every single German

For us it's Brexit or Indyref. Every time.

[–]wobinidan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was worse for Americans in Europe when Bush was in power, but he did start a war.

[–]Tug_Phelps 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I apologize on behalf of Canadians. Not because we've done anything in particular. We just have to say sorry to someone every few minutes

[–][deleted] 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

stop reading nonsense, demand NEWS from your "news"papers,

People who voted for and support him don't necessarily get their news from newspapers. They just call it all fake news since it doesn't suit their narrative. So... there is that. Also, a lot of the newspapers do a pretty good job at covering the news, perhaps you are reading about tabloids, or your newspapers aren't covering this correctly.

, and get better people elected. You start doing that with local and regional elected offices.

A huge thing that came up recently in the courts was the legality of gerrymandering. You might want to look it up. It was the current DNC head who was one of the major heads in bringing that to court in Texas and it's being targeted throughout the US. Thank you very much.

https://www.thenation.com/article/federal-court-rules-texas-gerrymandering-unconstitutional/

Honestly, I think some of you have no clue what you are talking about. Do a little better research next time -- thanks.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]Seifenschnitzel 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Exactly. I was in the US some years ago. I never saw people more proud of their country, their freedom and personal strive for a better live. Since Trump is elected it feels like that confidence is gone. Is it so easy America? The things you are so fucking proud of are under threat. But not by an all mighty force, but by a buffon and his uneducated followers. This is not a fight that is over. It just started. Be the fucking rampart over confident, freedom loving bastards the world knows and loves you for.

    [–]sweetoldetcAmi in Berlin 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    God yes. People mean well, but it smacks of condescension to me, as though Germans are not savvy enough to understand that the actions of a buffoon do not represent all of the US or that they don't understand the current political climate there. Germans know what's happening in the world and don't need Americans to swoop in every time something idiotic happens to remind us of how Americans really feel.

    I especially like comments I've seen to the effect of "I hope Merkel is reelected just to spite him" as though that's what all Germans really want...

    [–]SchwertritterPoland 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm a bit extremist, but I think Americans need to do a bit more than just that to fix their country...

    [–]sputtertots 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    And we are getting off to a shit start. We have many special elections this year and turnout is still averaging below 40%. In many places its in the 20-30% turnout. All talk and no action.

    [–]x_risky123_x 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'll always be allowed back in the Republican Party win a primary is disgusting enough.

    [–]superdonut22 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    One big indicator that something is basically wrong is that Russia and China do nt discriminate against others.

    [–]pteroso 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I agree with your recommendation. The most important thing is to get out and vote in the midterm elections, especially if your congressman is a Republican.

    [–]Ayatollah_Bahloni 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Tja. Das machen wir schon - oder, wenigstens, das mache ich schon. Es tut mir nichtsdestoweniger Leid, Unser Präsident ist ein Mißgeburt, eine unmenschliche Drecksau, ein stinkender Misthaufen. Was auch Man von Europäischer Politik denkt, wie er sich mit Frau Merkel benommen hat ist eine Schande.

    [–]Kilo-Nein 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This "apology" nonsense is absolutely disgusting - there's nothing to apologize for. Politicians are politicians, and Merkel has her own issues to contend with in Germany as well with her upcoming election. Shes not a saint.

    As for Trump, he represents the interest of the US people and that's why he got elected. Get over it, the people have spoken and the election is over. I personally only hope Germany does the same this fall, and replaces Merkel with someone who represents the interests of the German people.

    Signed, A German and American citizen.

    [–]pwnies_gonna_pwnWorld 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    he represents the interest of the US people

    *snort*

    [–]Shatbird -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Also it just makes you seem egocentric and feeling more important than you are.

    [–]Casually_me -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Just as important!
    Germans, stop apologizing for nazism and WWII. Those were different people. You're not them. You don't have to atone for what somebody else did.
    Sincerely: A friend of Germany :)

    [–]DarkhourXUSA -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Might as well get used to this being the norm. I live in America the amount of overly sensitive, self-hating, apologists is pretty much the reason Trump got elected. And with those people doubling down post election odds are he will again.

    [–]Pathfinder6 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    You know, I spent over 12 years of my 20+ year US Army career in what was then West Germany, mostly in units along the border. Seeing what Germany (and the rest of the EU) has become, I really regret the US decision to stop Soviet expansion into Western Europe.

    [–]FarleyFinsterBayern[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    You should be rather pleased then. The Soviets may be gone but Trump seems eager to hand everything over to the Russians. That includes America's hegemony.

    Perhaps you should've left the base occasionally and gotten to know more people than just a few of those K-Town clubber chicks.

    [–]Pathfinder6 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    "You should be rather pleased then. The Soviets may be gone but Trump seems eager to hand everything over to the Russians. That includes America's hegemony." Obama already did that when he caved to the Iranians and failed to live up to his "red line" promise in Syria. And let's not forget how he gave in to Putin with Crimea and Ukraine and gutted the US military.

    [–]pwnies_gonna_pwnWorld 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    gutted the US military.

    bitch please

    [–]thewindinthewillowsGermany 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    When was the last time you actually were in Germany? And when you were stationed "along the border", did you actually see anything of the country itself?

    [–]Zitronensalat 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Ließ doch einfach ein paar seiner übrigen Kommentare. Dann haben sich Deine Fragen von selbst erledigt.

    [–]Pathfinder6 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Let's see... Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Fulda, Boeblingen, Heidelberg, all the touristy places like Garmish, Chiemsee, Rothenburg, Munich, Augsburg, Nurnburg, Wirzburg. So yeah, pretty much traveled all over central and southern West Germany. After 12 years there, got to see lots of places and met lots of Germans. The funny thing is that the closer I was to the actual border, the more friendly the Germans were, especially the older ones. That all changed when the Soviet Union collapsed, especially with the younger Germans.

    [–]i_msiof_you -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Even in this I was borned here, and I feel better.