Cretan Bull

Moros

Perhaps this chap could help out after he's back from his vacation;

Cretan Bull

There are a surprising number of pictures of centaurs online.
If I was one, I'd want to be properly tooled up.

Epintius

Yeah but this idea of the hybrid human horse centaurus is modern and cames like it in the paper in our time, back in the ancient years they all have a full human body followed behind by a horse back.

Maybe it would be helpful to think if maybe we are more living in this tale than the ancient people.

Epintius

By the way I remember the fights of the Lapiths against the centaurus and the sculptures , there is clear human horse hybrid depiction . The difference is that it had back than also a symbolic use (the fight between the logical und unlogical, logiki is the logic in greek and the word alogo, unlogic used also for horses beside ippos) in compare to our times where it is just a freak show. Also the art of that time is much more aesthetic and inspired.

Archaeologies of the Greek Past: The Lapiths and the Centaurs - *** THIS FORUM IS ARCHIVED ***

Moros

The Centaurs, when fighting, are shown using rocks, branches or their bare hands and hooves. Their opponents however have shields, helmets, swords, spears or shaped clubs. Is this meant to show that the Centaurs were not civilised enough to have warfare? Or an indication that their natural aggression (as horses) was meant to be enough? Or a sign that they were a peaceful tribe who just had to use the nearest tools to hand when led into a fight?

The Thessalonian Centaurs were particularly vicious in their fight with the Lapiths.

Biting arms;



and neck;

Moros

Maybe for the Thessalonian Centaurs. But the Centaur Chiron was a great educator, seer and healer. And Pholus of the Peloponnesian Centaurs was very hospitable to Hercules (cooking him meat and sharing wine) and was very distressed when Hercules repaid this with violence towards his brothers. Both Chiron and Pholus were said to have been rewarded by Zeus for their good deeds by becoming a star constellation.

Epintius

Yes Cheiron was all this but he could heal others and not himself. It can be combined to help and be wise and a teacher and in the same moment have a part where is driven from the inside instincts, the unlogical where the logikon is not present, what also means the word alogon .

Have you find a depiction of Cheiron being total hybrid without a full human body in combination to the horse part? It would be interesting to check out cause it could be a difference on the symbolisms between this two kinds of centaurs.

It symbolises the wild instincts , the way the fight. Cheiron as example was a great teacher also in martial arts and if I remember right he teaches the future heroes the art of using the bow and the sword. Here is again the difference between wild and civilisated Centaurs.

This difference between Thessalian and PEloponnesian centaurs could had to do with the mountainers where in Peloponnes was more in touch with the culture (also cause in the very mountainous places outside from sea near like Arcadia polis excisted, Lykosoura as example was the very first poleis on earth according to the legend).

Or just that in Thessaly (where by the way also poleis in the mountains and far away from the sea excisted) the people who had this wild instinct had not such a good controll and positive use of it in compare to Peloponnes cause of their more wild close to nature and away from civilisation lifestyle . I think more the first point cause the polis in Thessaly was near the mountains but still most on the plane where in Peloponnes also cause the lack of lowlands and planes in compare to Thessaly excisted much more polis where was builded on mountainous terrain.

P.S: Biting like a lion was also practiced by human athletes through the time in the athlema of pankration where it was olympic.

Epintius

I will check out if anything more about is mentioned in ancient sources , there is much of the ancient greek cosmotheorie and cosmogonie we dont know not only cause the lack of sources but also cause the lack of our relation to their believes.

We learn from childhood cause they dont know how to explain the natural phenomens they found out different gods. Where this gods just represent universal powers outside and inside the earth who are connected with our sunsystem and with the universe, they focus more on our sunsystem but they also had older powers where all this came out from like the en (the one). Xenophanis from Kolophon writes as example that the en (one) is the god (to en ein i theotis). En ein to Pan (one is everything, one is all).
So a stance that they cont know and thats why they had many gods is a stance where doesnt help to understand their cosmogonical sence.

Moros

I'll look for images of Chiron as a four hooved Centaur. He appears as such in Roman art. Not sure about the Greek/Etruscan.

When I found the early human-legged centaurs I did think they were all of Chiron, and that it did indeed represent something different about him. However I also found images of multiple centaurs with human legs - which means they can't be representing Chiron alone. But maybe they all represent the Peloponnesian Centaurs;

Corinthian skyphos, 590-580 BC - the battle with Hercules; the fallen centaurs have human forelegs


Temple of Athena, Assos 540-525 BC - Hercules chasing the centaurs


Bronze mid 7th Century BC, Olympia


8th Century BC - the legs are not very clear in this image, but there is a better picture here http://www.flickr.com/photos/6971688...n/photostream/