全 194 件のコメント

[–]zzzzz94Part of the establishment[S] 68 ポイント69 ポイント  (44子コメント)

he debt that OP is referencing is the spending of newly created fiat currency supplied by the Federal Reserve, which must be repaid through taxation of the citizens of the USA. How is this controversial?

I am guessing this user believes that the government I guess uses the federal reserve to fund it's spending, and just asks them to print money when they need it? This is "controversial" because it is incorrect. The federal reserve only buys securities on the open market at the market price. It never buys directly from the treasury, nor will it if the government asks it to do so. So the government does not spend "newly created money", it has to borrow it from the private sector always. The amount of money created therefore is not government debt that must be repaid. Saying the federal reserve is responsible for government debt is ridiculous, the federal reserve has no say or influence in how much debt the government chooses to take on (although low interest rates may incentivize more borrowing)

money supply stability has significant volatility in purely fiat economies,

What's important, rather than the money supply, is the inflation rate. The increase or decrease in the money supply is really to effect inflation. Here we can compare stability in the inflation rate for the US. It's obvious which periods are more stable. Particularly in the last 35 years or so when we have understood monetary policy fairly well, inflation has been incredibly stable unlike anything before seen in history.

Some fiat currencies like Venezuela or Zimbabwe can have hyperinflation, but this is the result of poor monetary policy and a lack of independence of the central bank. Fiat currency controlled by an independent central bank has an incredibly high potential for stability when compared to the gold standard or any other standard.

How long have I been gone from /r/libertarian to return and see the most up voted comments defending the federal reserve?

Hopefully the sub has gained a little bit of sense

[–]ArcadePlussinstitutional sexonomics 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

hey, can you throw me a source on that CPI time series? I'd like to read a bit more about it.

[–]IntegraldsLiving on a Lucas island 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, it's mine. What would you like to know?

[–]ArcadePlussinstitutional sexonomics 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What's your source for price data that dates back that far? What kind of speculative or extrapolative steps did you make? I'm not doubting the verity of the chart, I'm just curious. I read a lot of economic history and generally there is a lot of piecemeal inference. I guess I just want to know how you made it.

[–]TotesMessenger 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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[–]crunkDealerThe Great Goolsbee 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (87子コメント)

Libertarians love good debates and analysis, but your disingenuous re-interpretation of fundamental economic fact

Jesus christ we're hitting levels of irony that shouldn't be possible

[–]FizzleMateriel 54 ポイント55 ポイント  (83子コメント)

Libertarians love good debates and analysis, but your disingenuous re-interpretation of fundamental economic fact so as to avoid having to call a spade a spade and deal with the consequences of it are very off-putting, not just to libertarianism, but to rational debate.

what is it with libertarians always smugly trying to appear as "the only rational, level-headed, responsible adult in the room seeing things for what they are and reasoning using facts"

[–]paulatreides0Feeling the Bern[anke] 56 ポイント57 ポイント  (81子コメント)

It's the same problem as Ancaps, Fascists, Austrians, and Marxists: when you're so far off the deep end and in such flippant opposition to almost all academic consensus and basic reality the only real mechanism you have left to justify your ideology is to pretend that everyone is wrong and deluded and that your particular flavour of crazy is the one and only [right] way forward.

[–]LateralusYellow 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm an Ancap and disagree with the ancap and libertarian obsession with commodity-backed currencies and fixed money supplies. Where is your god now?

Carl Menger, who is considered the founder of the Austrian economic school of thought, had it right the first time. Money already derives its value solely from its utility as the language of value itself, so money need not be backed by something else. Further, any attempts to do so, will introduce price volatility into the economy as we saw under the gold standard.

The only thing money needs to be is (like anything else) in a state of competition. Government monopolization of money (and thus banking itself, indirectly) gives them the ability to tax people to bail themselves out, which in turn also gives them the ability to secure a seemingly endless supply of private credit (emphasis on the word "seemingly", as that gravy train will run out eventually in a very sudden and dramatic fashion).

The libertarian obsession with the gold standard is ironically derived out of the same kind of emotional cognitive dissonance that leads people to believe in the legitimacy of government. They can see the flaws of price fixing everywhere else, yet when it comes to fixing the price of money to an ounce of gold they're all for it. In a sense it's really more of a libertarian/minarchist thing, ancaps are beginning to become somewhat more open to other ideas about money.

[–]GeneralLeeFrank 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this why some of the other libertarian economists were also in favor of competing currencies? IIRC, Hayek was for that.

I've tended to shy away from some of the goldbug stuff. I'm skeptical about pro/anti Fed at times, but that's mainly because I'm a historian, not an economist.

[–]Polisskolan2 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (59子コメント)

As a final year PhD student who is also an ancap, I'm really curious how "academic consensus" is in opposition to anarcho-capitalism. The biggest challenge for ancaps that I can think of is how to deal with externalities when the one who is affected negatively can't easily be identified (like behavior contributing to climate change). But then again, economics doesn't really provide a solution for governments either in situations like that.

[–]benjaminovichConfrontational Centrist 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (21子コメント)

PhD in economics? And you're an AnCap?

[–]paulatreides0Feeling the Bern[anke] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

In his defense, there are also Marxist econ PhDs. How the fuck that can happen, I do not know. But it happens.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm doing an econ PhD and I'm an anarchist (the real kind, not ancap).

[–]paulatreides0Feeling the Bern[anke] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

And there are Marxists who do econ PhDs. And even a few young Earth Creationists with physics PhDs.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Are you this confident that you're always correct when you're away from a circlejerk to back you up? Comparing Marxists and anarchists to YECs is pathetic.

[–]paulatreides0Feeling the Bern[anke] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you want, I can just compare you to a Marxist or Austrian. Although I'm fairly certain that for in a forum for economics discussion that's worse than being called a YEC.

[–]Polisskolan2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

I only have a master's degree. As I said, I will get my PhD within a year. Ancaps are a minority among people with PhDs in economics (we're a small minority among people in general, so it is not surprising), but there are some.

[–]wyldcraftCommenting is Debt 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

When did you decide you were AnCap? During studies or before enrollment?

[–]Polisskolan2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

During the last year of my undergraduate studies. I was fairly libertarian even before I started studying economics. And when I decided I was an ancap, I was still just an undergraduate student so of course I didn't have a very good understanding of economics. It was and still is more about ethics than it is about creating a perfect society from some utilitarian point of view.

[–]relevant_econ_memeThe Fellowship of the Meme 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Being an ex-ancap, the strongest ethical argument for ancapism is Huemer's Problem of Political Authority. Even then he gets game theory so fantastically wrong that it should be obvious that ancapism is not the most ethical system.

[–]Polisskolan2 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

My favorite argument in favor of libertarian ethics is simply that I would personally prefer to live in a society that isn't built on coercion against peaceful people.

[–]VodkaHazePython pRoletariat 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (36子コメント)

The biggest challenge for ancaps that I can think of is how to deal with externalities when the one who is affected negatively can't easily be identified (like behavior contributing to climate change). But then again, economics doesn't really provide a solution for governments either in situations like that.

So you never took a regulations class?

What about asymmetric information? Natural monopolies? Enforcing property rights / rule of law?

[–]Polisskolan2 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (35子コメント)

So you never took a regulations class?

I don't think most econ programs have individual courses in regulations. I've studied regulations in various micro courses of course.

What about asymmetric information?

Do you have any particular situation with asymmetric information in mind? Asymmetric information can often be made more symmetric without government involvement. You can have voluntary certifications, third party quality controls, review aggregators, etc.

Natural monopolies?

That is something that can occur. And it can be problematic for consumers if they have to pay higher prices. But that's still a fairly minor issue. And most examples people bring up of natural monopolies aren't very problematic. Railroads? Sure, they still have to compete with regular road owners, airlines and other modes of transportation. Internet? Well, cable owners still have to compete with mobile Internet, satellite connections, etc.

Enforcing property rights / rule of law?

What about it? All ancaps are strong supporters of property rights and the rule of law. How can a government be considered a good enforcer of property rights if the property rights enforcement is funded through violation of property rights (from a libertarian perspective)?

The mistake most people make is to forget that political and moral philosophy is beyond the scope of economics. Most libertarians are libertarians for ethical reasons. And libertarian ethics are not utilitarian (at least most of the time). You cannot "disprove" libertarian ethics by pointing out some practical thing that would function worse in a libertarian society. Some things would function better, some things would function worse.

[–]kohatsootsich 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (32子コメント)

property rights and the rule of law.

What "law"? How can there be any enforcement, nevermind "good" of law if there is no enforcer?

You cannot "disprove" libertarian ethics by pointing out some practical thing that would function worse in a libertarian society.

This is correct. AnCap libertarians oppose government intervention on principle. So pointing out things that wouldn't work isn't necessarily an objection.

Ultimately though, the objection is that things wouldn't work at all. In particular, the market mechanisms that AnCaps are enamored with cannot function without rule of law, and a measure of stability that is almost guaranteed to be absent in fully anarchist societies. Law at the very least requires some form of implicit agreement between the actors of a society. This would evaporate within a generation at the latest if everyone just went about their business. (More realistically, you would just have smaller, more decentralized, but not necessarily less oppressive entities stepping in initially for protection and enforcement of local rules, and later on evolving to full fledged governments.)

Anarchy as in lack of a central government backed by force may be feasible (although the historical record is not favorable to this possibility), but forget about rule of law or unified property rights if that's what you want.

[–]Polisskolan2 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (29子コメント)

What "law"? How can there be any enforcement, nevermind "good" of law if there is no enforcer?

There will be law enforcers. Libertarian ethics allow the use of force in self-defense and in the defense of others. In other words, you are allowed to use force against aggressors. You can also sign contracts obligating someone to defend a person's life and property. Think of the law as a web of contracts on a foundation resting on the non-aggression principle. I don't deny that there will be many grey areas and a lot of arbitrary lines that need to be drawn before something like that would be possible. And it is of course necessary that a sufficiently large share of the population actually want a legal/contractual society based on libertarian principles.

In particular, the market mechanisms that AnCaps are enamored with cannot function without rule of law, and a measure of stability that is almost guaranteed to be absent in fully anarchist societies.

This is where we disagree. We may think of the rule of law differently, but you can have property, markets and trade even without any rule of law. You can even observe them among some animals. Even criminal gangs recognize, to some extent, the notion of property and trade among themselves. And I think we can do better than chimps and criminal gangs. We also don't oppose laws as long as they are compatible with libertarian ethics.

[–]kohatsootsich 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (24子コメント)

This is where we disagree. We may think of the rule of law differently, but you can have property, markets and trade even without any rule of law.

No you cannot. The only reason to leave someone alone with their "property" rather than ignore it in the cases you describe (animals, criminals) is that there is a social or material cost associated with taking it by force that is high enough to prevent you from taking it. If you are strong enough, of course you take it. That's not property rights, that's just being strong enough to defend yourself. Then people start banding together for protection, decide on common rules, etc... soon enough, you have some type of hierarchy again, together with domination. Whether you choose to call it "law", "government", or a "web of agreements" is irrelevant, you still have people having to comply with rules enforced by the threat of violence (or certain death, because they will be denied access to vital resources).

[–]Polisskolan2 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (23子コメント)

No you cannot. The only reason to leave someone alone with their "property" rather than ignore it in the cases you describe (animals, criminals) is that there is a social or material cost associated with taking it by force that is high enough to prevent you from taking it. If you are strong enough, of course you take it. That's not property rights, that's just being strong enough to defend yourself.

That's how property rights work. It is always true that if you are strong enough, you can do what you want. Property rights mean nothing if you can't defend your property (maybe with the help of others) against those who don't care about your property rights. Are you saying someone very powerful can't steal stuff if there's a government protecting property?

What are property rights according to you? How are they different in a society ruled by a government?

Then people start banding together for protection, decide on common rules, etc... soon enough, you have some type of hierarchy again

We have nothing against hierarchies.

together with domination

Why?

Whether you choose to call it "law", "government", or a "web of agreements" is irrelevant, you still have people having to comply with rules enforced by the threat of violence (or certain death, because they will be denied access to vital resources).

I agree. That is not what we are opposed to. If you define government that way, then we are not opposed to government. We are opposed to violations of individual rights (as we understand and define them). And all governments in existence today violate people's property rights. That's why we oppose them. We don't oppose them because we hate laws or hierarchies.

[–]zzzzz94Part of the establishment[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Libertarian ethics allow the use of force in self-defense and in the defense of others.

Everyone in society is going to obey libertarian ethics? Not even close.

you are allowed to use force against aggressors

Everyone has a different idea of what "aggression" is. It can be selectively interpreted to do your own aggression

You can also sign contracts obligating someone to defend a person's life and property

About as good as a pinky swear.

[–]Polisskolan2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Everyone in society is going to obey libertarian ethics? Not even close.

No, that's why we need to enforce them.

Everyone has a different idea of what "aggression" is.

Yes, that is true.

About as good as a pinky swear.

Not if contracts can be enforced.

[–]Klondeikbar 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anarchy as in lack of a central government backed by force may be feasible (although the historical record is not favorable to this possibility)

Medieval Iceland had a "functional" anarchy but it relied pretty heavily on slavery and "we'll form a mob and take your stuff after we murder you if you do something we don't like." Also with no centralized authority the king of Norway just sorta walked his army into their territory and said it was his with absolutely zero opposition.

I learned about it in my Law and Economics class which was taught by my staunchly Libertarian professor who himself admitted that simply tearing down government "cuz it's evil" is a monumentally stupid thing to do.

I know of no other examples of even remotely functional medium to large scale anarchies.

[–]matty_a 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

And it can be problematic for consumers if they have to pay higher prices. But that's still a fairly minor issue.

Yeah, it can be problematic when winter comes around and someone can't afford to pay inflated prices for heat because of demand spike and monopolistic owner trying to maximize profit.

[–]Polisskolan2 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why would there be a natural monopoly when it comes to heating?

[–]u152 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Baboons are terrestrial (ground dwelling) and are found in open savannah, open woodland and hills across Africa. Their diets are omnivorous, but mostly herbivorous, yet they eat insects and occasionally prey on fish, trout and salmon if available, shellfish, hares, birds, vervet monkeys, and small antelopes.

What is it with baboons always smugly trying to appear as "the only insect, fish, shellfish, hare, bird, vervet monkey, and small antelope eaters"?

Source

[–]DonaldBlythe 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This was one of the top posts from not too long ago. Ironically it sums up the sub (well other than their social issues record).

[–]matty_a 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Read that first downvoted reply, I'm convinced that people who advocate for workers putting workers in charge of the means of production communally have never worked with a large group of the general public before.

[–]bloodraven42 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not really. You can very easily give workers ownership rights to the company without disturbing business. It all depends on how you structure it, really. There's companies in the US that are wholly owned by their employees, such as King Arthur Flour - giving workers a chance to own the means of production doesn't mean turning the entire factory into mob rule. Inequality can be reduced through methods such as ESOPs.

[–]mega_shit 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (43子コメント)

I think the top economic issues I just can't align with libertarians on are:

  • Monetary policy - I mean, a lot of libertarians don't care about a Taylor Rule or NGDP targeting, they think there should be no monetary policy at all and we dig gold out of the earth and that's our currency.
  • Global warming (actually any negative externality) - its like they think private contracts will somehow solve global problems like pollution.
  • Denial of public goods - these really do exist, and yes the government should fund them.

Of course, I can make equally long lists for Democrats and Republicans too. It seems like there's enough bad economics to be spread around across all party lines.

I remember NPR doing podcasts on the top policies economists love and voters hate and it just depressed the fuck out of me.

[–]TheGirondin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there far less "monetary policy" libertarians than there seems, mostly because they are so loud and are single issue.

It't not so much that libertarianism itself is anti-Fed, it's that of all the political camps, libertarianism aligns with them the most. They seem to be starting out as anti-Fed and see us as allies, if that makes sense.

Of course, Ron Paul's gold buggery does not help anything.

[–]the9trances 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (26子コメント)

Monetary policy

There are metal-backed currency libertarians, but in my opinion, they seem to be a lot less common these days, and in further questioning, you'll find they often have anti-libertarian positions like supporting restrictions on free trade and immigration bans. There's obviously plenty of traditional economic reasons to not support metal currency, but even within libertarianism, there's a reason not to support them: the theory of subjective value. Things don't have an inherent worth, so simply basing something on a precious metal doesn't make it a more reliable or valuable currency.

global warming

The biggest and most consistent objection to global warming isn't against the science, but against the political solutions. People disagree about the free market and private property for hundreds of reasons, and global warming is simply one of many. I don't think the objections to private property enforcement to prevent global warming carries any more water than the objections to private property for healthcare. It's a political opinion; there's no widespread private property adoption to test against, but there is widespread adoption of governmental environmental regulation, and it's not doing so great. Even the US government itself is the single largest polluter on earth.

denial of public goods

Again, I don't think it's a "denial" of them, simply a political opinion difference. Why should a political view that centers around minimal government intervention embrace them when it's convenient? That's like saying people who support planned economies should oppose the minimum wage; they simply aren't going to, because it's against what they stand for.

[–]Lowsow 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't think the objections to private property enforcement to prevent global warming carries any more water than the objections to private property for healthcare.

Let's say I can quantify specific damages caused to me by global warming, then what is my private enforcement mechanism? Am I supposed to file a suit against everyone who drove a car or used electricity in the past century?

[–]the9trances 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

A good question, but it's full of a lot of assumptions and moving targets. I'll try to be as complete and specific as possible.

quantify specific damages

Yes, this is a demonstrable thing, and for each violation of your private property (which includes your body), you have criminal and/or civil recourse against your aggressor.

damages caused by global warming

Since global warming was caused by a tremendous number of private property violations, a more granular approach to private property could help ameliorate widespread pollution, instead of a more approximated and abstracted approach like we've been doing the past century.

private enforcement mechanism

Statist libertarians (like me) would say a government would treat private property violations as crimes, so it'd look like a current day police action. Anarcho-capitalists have private property enforcement by private security forces and DROs (dispute resolution organizations).

historical suits

Global warming may be real, but you would no more be able to seek damages from previous offenders than you are able to seek employment from a company whose actions lead to unemployment in your area ten years ago. Those larger systemic, collectivist abstractions would be academic, not legal standards. Communities could unite under voluntary pledges and boycott polluters and engage in similar peaceful recourse against egregious violators.

[–]Lowsow 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I don't understand your reply. What is a granular approach to private property? Are you talking about assigning property rights to the atmosphere? That sounds incredibly complicated, and full of easements.

You talk about treating pollution as a crime, so does that just mean the police arresting polluters? Wouldn't that be the same as nowadays?

I also wonder how a libertarian society draws the line between acceptable carbon dioxide output and pollution. Someone affected by global warming has a problem because of excess greenhouse gasses in the air, but it doesn't matter to them whether the greenhpuse gasses came from burning coal, or cow fartw, or human breathing, just that an excess have been released.

As for historic suits, well, I can only sue for people who caused me damages in the past, not for the damages they may choose to cause me in the future. Any attempt to seek damages caused by gloabal warming would have to be based on historic pollution, particularly as the effects of global warming take decades or centuries to fully manifest.

As for boycotting polluters, that's incredibly weak. Pollution causes people to die, and the only recourse you give the people affected is boycotts?

[–]the9trances 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What is a granular approach to private property?

Individual private property enforcement. Take the Gulf BP spill. Governments handled those suits, but private property enforcement means that each affected landowner has both criminal and civil recourse against the offender.

arresting polluters

That's certainly not how it is now. There are some fines, but it's pretty much a part of the business' balancesheet.

acceptable pollution

That's not some weakness of libertarianism; that's a question every society needs to answer. China is the antithesis of libertarianism, and their answer's "acceptable pollution equals 100% pollution" clearly.

The libertarian position is "direct harm to an individual or their property" is what determines a violation.

And I can't imagine pollution would be at nearly as high of levels as it is now without governments abstracting pollution away, like they have, or without the massive wars and government projects that generate profound amounts of waste and destruction.

historic pollution

Yes. Bad things are going to happen. I'm talking about an approach that helps prevent pollution in general. Global warming happened on the government's watch, so it has demonstrably failed and there are no likely government-based solutions that are going to sufficiently reverse it.

boycotting

Governments don't care if people don't want to give them money; all but the most hardcore green hippy hand-waved Obama's acts of war, which no doubt polluted other countries far worse than any single company did on US soil.

Companies stop existing if people don't give them money. Don't underestimate the effect of a concentrated boycott. If people give a shit, they'll make it happen. If they don't, then they don't.

[–]Lowsow 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Your post seems to be suggesting two mutually exclusive approaches to pollution. On the one hand you say BP can be sued over the oil spill. On the other you say that people who release carbon dioxide can't be sued over global warming. What's the difference?

Boycotts are of limited effectiveness. A community may decide that the benefits of causing worldwide pollution outweigh the benefits of world trade. What can libertarians who wish to enjoy clean air and avoid sea level changes do about this?

[–]the9trances 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

you say that people who release carbon dioxide can't be sued over global warming

I actually didn't say that. I am saying I don't know how it could be demonstrated as specifically harmful to an individual. It's my opinion that the aggregate efforts of individual enforcement, technology improvements, and the absence of massively polluting unchecked government entities would make global warming less of a pressing concern.

A community may decide that the benefits of causing worldwide pollution outweigh the benefits of world trade.

Yes, and some would certainly do that.

What can libertarians who wish to enjoy clean air and avoid sea level changes do about this?

In the real world, not in an abstract way? Continue to focus on policies that encourage technology growth, free trade, and oppose war. But we're a tiny political group, so in a world dictated by "majority wins," we wring our hands and have a lot of infighting instead.

[–]Lowsow 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Imagine if there were a button. If I press it someone random will be caused to lose two million dollars of goods, and I will gain one million dollars worth of goods. Many other people have access to these buttons.

It's well known which people are pressing these buttons.

I think this is a good analogy to global warming. In a libertarian society how would this behaviour be curbed?

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]the9trances 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Wow, that's the most duplicate posts I've ever seen!

    [–]Lowsow 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, this reddit mobile app :'(

    [–]Polisskolan2 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (10子コメント)

    Global warming (actually any negative externality) - its like they think private contracts will somehow solve global problems like pollution.

    Negative externalities by themselves are not a problem in a libertarian legal framework. Negative externalities where the victim can't easily be identified (global warming) is problematic though. But it is problematic for governments too. Economics doesn't tell us what to do about it either.

    Denial of public goods - these really do exist, and yes the government should fund them.

    Can you give an example of a non-excludable good?

    If you have a public good, how much money should the government spend on it? Economics doesn't tell you the answer to that question, and if you don't know the preferences of the people in your society (and you never do), you may just be making things worse by funding public goods.

    [–]thelamset 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    But it is problematic for governments too. Economics doesn't tell us what to do about it either.

    E.g. the point of Greenwald and Stiglitz 1986 is that we can typically identify if and how a pigovian tax or subsidy is an improvement.

    [–]Polisskolan2 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thank you for the link. I will have to read it, but it is a very long paper and I don't have time to do that right away. If you've read it, how do they determine the size of the tax each person pays and the compensation each person receives to ensure that the Pareto criterion is respected?

    [–]thelamset 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yes, to my limited understanding, it has to be determined empirically, with some trial-and-error mechanics. The limits of government information is an important caveat in the paper. Some quick examples with such qualifications begin on p. 238. A necessary assumption is that public institutions have at least slightly better information than any individual.

    One semi-laissez faire solution to some of the examples would be to somehow enforce wage, price, externality and quality transparency in the market.

    [–]ChileConCarney 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    But economics literally tells us what to do about negative externalities. It tells us to use domestic consumption taxes on negative externalities that simultaneously forces consumers to absorb the external costs they create while tax shifting away from income/corporate taxes.

    Non excludable goods would be military protection. If paying for military protection was optional but required for protection, you would end up protecting people who didn't pay for it in an effort to protect those who did. If I don't pay for defense I am still protected by your nuclear weapons as any launch against me or my non paying group would still threaten those who paid. Your protection of them requires your protection of me by default.

    I understand where you are coming from with the funding for public goods question, but economics has an answer for that. If we take highways, bridges, tunnels, regional and metro rail as an example, the amount the government spends on something is no more/no less than the sum of the capital, operating, and maintenance costs that should be recouped via ticket and toll costs after using land value capture for adjacent development. In these examples you can even use privately run, for profit, publicly traded corporations instead of government run as long as gov has a majority ownership stake (like 60%) and regulations to control abuse of natural monopoly. Look up the MTR for an example. For something like local roads this doesn't work as a company can't (and probably shouldn't​) be able to buy every property and extract land value rents for the increase in value their infrastructure provides. (Literally Monopoly.) So here it is probably better to pay the capital costs of new local roads with TIFs on the new developments they are built in, while paying the operating and maintenance/repair costs of existing local roads with consumption based congestion, vehicle, and/or gas taxes.

    Libertarians desire to eliminate income/corporate taxes while still having a way to provide the needed revenue for courts, law enforcement, and military. This should make them and modern economics natural allies. However, many (not all) libertarians revile at the idea of intentionally using taxation as a legitimate tool even if it results in the elimination of worse taxes or even an overall tax decrease. Unfortunately many libertarians support libertarianism just as an idea that government and taxation is inherently bad and should thus be reduced as much as can be tolerated instead, rather it just being the best collection of good policy that just so happens to advocate smaller government.

    TLDR: negative externalities have easy solution. Explain free rider problem and non excludable goods. The amount the government is supposed to spend on a public good = the capital/operating/and maintenance costs of that good and the question of whether or not it worth funding is answered by whether all costs will be covered by fees/taxes on the people who directly use them.

    [–]Polisskolan2 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    But economics literally tells us what to do about negative externalities. It tells us to use domestic consumption taxes on negative externalities that simultaneously forces consumers to absorb the external costs they create while tax shifting away from income/corporate taxes.

    No, it tells us that in the presense of negative externalities, there exists an tax and compensation schedule that is Pareto improving if preferences are quasilinear in money. It doesn't tell us what it should look like. It doesn't tell us how much each person should pay. It doesn't tell us how much each person should be compensated. It tells us what the Pareto effecient level of production is if we know what people's preferences are, which we don't. If people don't have quasilinear preferences, or if we don't know what people's preferences are, economics doesn't tell us what to do.

    Non excludable goods would be military protection.

    That's the textbook example. However, if you look at it from a libertarian perspective, it is not clear that a government's military is a good. It is not clear why your government would rule you better than your government's enemies.

    the amount the government spends on something is no more/no less than the sum of the capital, operating, and maintenance costs that should be recouped via ticket and toll costs after using land value capture for adjacent development.

    I'm not convinced that is true. I know many cases where it certainly isn't, where the cost of a public project is inflated to astronomical levels.

    I don't really have a comment about your road building paragraph. Maybe there are better ways to build roads with a government. But it's entirely possible to build them without one.

    However, many (not all) libertarians revile at the idea of intentionally using taxation as a legitimate tool even if it results in the elimination of worse taxes or even an overall tax decrease.

    I would argue that such a thing would be an improvement. But it could still be improved further by eventually getting rid of it completely.

    The amount the government is supposed to spend on a public good = the capital/operating/and maintenance costs of that good

    But how much of it? Most goods aren't binary. It's usually not the case that you either have it, or you don't. And what should the payment schedule look like?

    the question of whether or not it worth funding is answered by whether all costs will be covered by fees/taxes on the people who directly use them.

    So it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not people actually like the good or service?

    [–]IPredictAReddit 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    No, it tells us that in the presense of negative externalities, there exists an tax and compensation schedule that is Pareto improving if preferences are quasilinear in money.

    You can drop the "Pareto" (in favor of a Kaldor-Hicks welfare improvement) and then the statement is absolutely true. All you need is the marginal cost of the externality; individual preferences of any form, known or not, are not necessary.

    [–]Polisskolan2 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    The presence of a Kaldor-Hicks improvement implies the presence of a Pareto improvement. I prefer to talk about Pareto improvements because the notion of a Kaldor-Hicks improvement is kind of silly. The absence of a Kaldor-Hicks improvement is a good thing, but it also implies Pareto efficiency which is a more appealing concept.

    All you need is the marginal cost of the externality; individual preferences of any form, known or not, are not necessary.

    Which speaks against the relevance of Kaldor-Hicks improvements.

    [–]IPredictAReddit 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The presence of a Kaldor-Hicks improvement implies the presence of a Pareto improvement.

    Not necessarily. It implies the potential for a Pareto improvement. There are many possible ways to meet a Kaldor-Hicks criterion without being Pareto-improving.

    In fact, Pigouvian taxes will almost always be non-Pareto - as long as one person is worse off having to pay the tax than they are without the tax (that is, if one person benefits from, say, the low price of a good but does not suffer the externality), then a Pigouvian tax is efficient, but not a Pareto-improvement.

    [–]Polisskolan2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Not necessarily. It implies the potential for a Pareto improvement. There are many possible ways to meet a Kaldor-Hicks criterion without being Pareto-improving.

    I didn't mean to imply that every Kaldor-Hicks improvement is a Pareto improvement. I just meant that the existence of a Kaldor-Hicks improvement implies the existence of a (perhaps different) Pareto improvment.

    In fact, Pigouvian taxes will almost always be non-Pareto - as long as one person is worse off having to pay the tax than they are without the tax (that is, if one person benefits from, say, the low price of a good but does not suffer the externality), then a Pigouvian tax is efficient, but not a Pareto-improvement.

    Yes. A Pigouvian tax will typically not be Pareto improving, but it will result in a Pareto efficient outcome (given quasilinear preferences).

    [–]ChileConCarney 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It doesn't tell us what it should look like. It doesn't tell us how much each person should pay. It doesn't tell us how much each person should be compensated.

    The fuck it doesn't. To find the amount to pay, add together the quantifiable costs born by others as a result of the externality and divide it by the amount of good/service that produced that level of externality. $X per metric ton of (insert pollution here) released. The great thing is instead of trying to determine who's compensated what, you can use the new revenue to eliminate other taxes or direct funding to counter the effects of the externality. So even in a scenario where the tax isn't perfectly set, it still results in a much smaller market distortion and less economic dead weight loss then the option of no interference.

    It tells us what the Pareto effecient level of production is if we know what people's preferences are, which we don't. If people don't have quasilinear preferences, or if we don't know what people's preferences are, economics doesn't tell us what to do.

    Not incurring unnecessary and otherwise avoidable healthcare costs, upper respiratory illnesses, or premature death as a result of someone else's actions without your permission is a pretty universal preference.

    That's the textbook example. However, if you look at it from a libertarian perspective, it is not clear that a government's military is a good. It is not clear why your government would rule you better than your government's enemies.

    Which proves your point completely moot as you then either A. live under a government you support and are willing to pay, B. Live under a government you support and just want to free ride on the support provided by others, or C. where you live under a shit government you can't leave and whose enemies' government you prefer in which case your government really doesn't give a fuck and is going to take it anyway.

    I'm not convinced that is true. I know many cases where it certainly isn't, where the cost of a public project is inflated to astronomical levels.

    Private enterprises have cost overruns as well for large projects, but it doesn't matter in the end as the cost is passed onto the consumer who willingly pays it. If the cost goes up too high the customer won't pay later when the cost is absorbed into the final price. These inflated cost projects are always run by government agencies supported by a general fund and not government, partially government owned, or private partnered, corporations supported by the revenue/tolls/fare collected.

    I don't really have a comment about your road building paragraph. Maybe there are better ways to build roads with a government. But it's entirely possible to build them without one.

    It is possible...just not without creating a monopoly wherever it extends for everyone on/traveling on it. Whether it be just that street or a monopoly running through an entire city. For building a road that's great and exactly what I said before, but granting full private property rights complete with excludable power on common carrier infrastructure which can only exist in the form of a monopoly without mitigating regulations and oversight to prevent abuse of natural monopoly is to ignore even an ancap's praxing of market incentives.

    I would argue that such a thing would be an improvement. But it could still be improved further by eventually getting rid of it completely.

    Negative externalities violate the NAP. I don't understand your acceptance of allowing property and violent crime to be committed against someone so long as it is just an obvious and unavoidable side effect of their intended action.

    But how much of it? Most goods aren't binary. It's usually not the case that you either have it, or you don't. And what should the payment schedule look like?

    ...As I already stated, how much the government/company spends = capital, operating, maintenance costs of that route, and that route exists so long as the tolls, fares, revenue supports those costs at the bare minimum. Those tolls, fares, and revenues can only be collected if people want to use the good or service in question. This is a basic explanation of how markets work. The reason the government is involved at all is to prevent the market failures unique to this situation.

    So it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not people actually like the good or service?

    Ok now you have to be deliberately misinterpreting me to get that. Since the good or service is paid for via toll, fares, or consumption tax on those who use it, it can only continue to function by attracting and keeping users otherwise they stop using it and Ta Da! No more money to run it.

    Please look up how the MTR works in Hong Kong.

    [–]bloodraven42 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Obviously this doesn't apply to all libertarians, hopefully not even that significant a portion of them, but the libertarian club at my university (which is somehow also the biggest political club here) hands out literature detailing how inflation is a myth invented by the Democrats to control poor people. I'm not sure how that works, exactly, but there you go. The rest of their pamphlets are highlights of the worst Austrian economics has to offer.

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    [–]zzzzz94Part of the establishment[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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    [–]bon_painsolow's model and barra regression 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I love everything about this thread.