Natal males co-opting feminist slogans while promoting the misogyny they were invented in response to

Sillyolme · 31分前

So much anger... so much confusion... and so much false accusations... that I just don't know where to begin. So, I'll just begin and see where that goes.

First, we have to be clear on WHO is experiencing oppression and or violence for what reason. I've already written an essay on who within the various types of folks that are labeled collectively "trans*" experiences violence and for what reason:

https://sillyolme.wordpress.com/2013/08/27/one-in-twelve/

Note that the 'oppression' and violence occur BEFORE they transition as transkids are socially visible as gender atypical and homosexual. They experience potentially lethal violence AFTER transition as well... when their trans status is discovered... but otherwise, passing reduces both oppression and violence:

https://sillyolme.wordpress.com/2016/01/01/a-passing-privilege/

Claims of "co-opting" feminist language seems to me to be inappropriate because all humans should understand and use that means for deconstruction of social oppression.

tailcalled · 4時間前

This is my understanding of why victim blaming is wrong.

The TL;DR is that generally, the tips to prevent against rape that are considered victim blaming ask you to do an unreasonable sacrifice in order to prevent rape. However, because getting raped is not seen as an acceptable risk, it is considered absurd to say that you prefer the risk of getting raped to doing the unreasonable sacrifice. This means that you cannot be honest about the reasoning for doing what you're doing, and this leads to problems.

Probably one of the most important things for trans people to do is to transition. You are suggesting that we don't do that (which'd be the unreasonable sacrifice, since transition is super-duper important), in order to not get victimized by female-targeted violence (e.g. rape). This has the exact same problems as victim blaming, when using the model from the article I linked.

So yeah, it is victim-blaming.

wavfem · 5時間前

I agree with this post. the coopting of the feminist movement, the demands that the feminist movement be for the protection of of natal males who express femininity is what led me to become GC.

Trans women (and men) would have a better time if they created their own movement. Their own shelters, their own policy goals that down impinge on the rights of women (eg protecting gender expression against discrimination rather than replacing sex with gender identity in anti discrimination laws).

MadGenderScientist · 7時間前

I've been read as female wearing the same clothes I wore before transition - a flannel shirt and jeans.

And for that matter, if you see us taking estrogen as simply an aesthetic choice, why wouldn't you choose to take testosterone? Trans natal females pass as men rather easily...

theory_of_this · 7時間前

Your clothing choice (and overall aesthetic expression) is the axis of your oppression.

wow, just wow

fuzzyroundthings · 8時間前

You're basically saying that anybody born with a penis should either man up or else accept violence against them on the basis of GNC appearance and behavior. How am I supposed to take that as anything other than upholding violence based on male gender conformity? Would you tell a feminine teenage boy getting beaten up at school for it that he's choosing to have feminine mannerisms and thus shouldn't complain about the treatment he receives? I find it just incredible that you would want to encourage men and trans women to act/dress more masculinely as a solution to violence against them. You're splitting hairs to avoid seeing that it is absolutely victim blaming to say to a man or trans woman "while nobody should be targeting you for your femininity, keep in mind that if you don't like it you can always choose to be more masculine".

The only way I can try to understand why you would think this way is if you believe that no man or trans woman would ever be interpreted as too feminine unless we consciously chose to act that way. And this just isn't reality. I was bullied relentlessly as a kid for things that I did not choose but were perceived as feminine: being short, being blonde, being quiet, being physically weak, being emotional, being kind, enjoying reading, the way I walked, the way I gestured, etc. So either you don't realize that perceived feminine gender expression goes far beyond whether or not one wears a dress, or you're consciously advocating that boys, men, and trans women "opt out" of violence by consciously choosing to walk differently, talk differently, gesture differently, treat women differently, and so on.

OneFrumRum · 9時間前

I'm a cis-passing trans natal male. It doesn't matter what I wear, I'm still read as female. How my body looks isn't a voluntary aesthetic choice. I didn't choose to have sex dysphoria.

I'm not saying that trans natal males should be given access to female resources/spaces/movements etc. but the idea that I suffer from discrimination because I opted onto an axis of oppression based on clothing, and that I can opt out at any point, is false.

Princeso_Bubblegum · 9時間前

Nice strawman, I don't think that the sexual assault of transwomen is based on the clothing we were, and neither is being transgender dependent on the clothing we wear.

This thread falls flat pretty quickly.

thrwpllw · 9時間前

If you do not broadcast to the world that you feel a feeling of being transgender inside your own mind - by translating that feeling into engaging in certain sex stereotypical aesthetic markings, no one knows that you have that transgender feeling in your mind.

Natal females are incapable of such a self-preservation tactic.

Hope it's not a total derail to draw a parallel: I think this is similar to some of the discussions on oppression of bisexuality v. homosexuality.

I'm bisexual and partnered with a person of the opposite sex. This means that unless I choose to volunteer information, there's not really any way for others to know that I'm not straight.

I can go out in public with my partner, I can refer to him with the appropriate pronouns in work conversations, I can have him accompany me to professional functions, and so on, and enjoy straight privilege while doing so. My gay and lesbian peers cannot do any of these things without outing themselves.

Bisexual people do face discrimination and I am not in any way saying they are to blame if this does happen. I just think there is a meaningful difference in the fact that I can effectively choose when/if I am vulnerable to discrimination without much effort.

Kalipest · 9時間前

I'm interested in your "voluntary, controllable axis of oppression" theory. By this metric, a gay couple that recieve abuse for holding hands in the street totally are asking for it because they could've just waited until they got home to hold hands, they could've just pretended to be something they are not (which is what you're asking trans people to do here, when you suggest that they should make "different aesthetic choices".)

I think it's quite possible that we can apply the term "victim blaming" to different scenarios really. I'm also not sure that "victim blaming" is a feminist slogan (tm) - just a term used to describe a specific attitude towards victims.

qwertypoiuytre · 10時間前

None of this is to say male violence against GNC males is okay. GNC males should fight against male violence, and feminists would make perfect allies as we also fight against male violence.

However feminists do not make perfect allies for the goal of some GNC males - whose answer to violence from other males is to eradicate female protections from male violence.

If the only options you (meaning GNC males) present is:

You continue to suffer violence from other males because you refuse to address the problem of male violence itself, but wish to continue presenting as GNC

-or-

Female protections against male violence must be sacrificed for your benefit, because you wish to continue presenting as GNC but are unwilling to address the problem of male violence

Then, no I will not agree to #2. The only option left is #1. You still have the option to address the male violence (whether by combating that violence, or by enacting protections for yourselves from it), or to change your aesthetic presentation. I am not sacrificing female protections for that aesthetic presentation.

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