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Bad grammar in young children's books is borderline unforgivable (self.books)

Declaration14C が 投稿

I'm a teacher and I do be reading books and stories to my class often. These books have so many mistakes, it drives me up the wall. The books are intended for people who are still putting together the building blocks of language and there are sentences starting with "and" or "but", sentences ending on prepositions, using the past tense instead of the subjunctive and others I'm sure.

These books are published, there's editors! Do people just not care? They're directly negatively impacting the development of children through laziness!!

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[–]nullball 142 ポイント143 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I actually thought this was satire. After reading this thread I'm not sure anymore.

[–]trilluminum_foil 60 ポイント61 ポイント  (7子コメント)

lol right? this person is complaining about beginning a sentence with "and" but has no problem injecting their Irish dialect into their manner of speaking when it's 10x more "grammatically incorrect."

I'm bewildered

[–]LampLanguage 49 ポイント50 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a teacher and I do be reading books

[–]Smartnership 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do bewildered

[–]UpperBlessedSide [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

There's editors!

[–]kwb8166 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Came here to say this - yikes!

[–]ChaosVuvuzela [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Which could be correct in context, such as if someone's name is "Editors" and you just spotted him and/or her.

"There's Editors!" Shelly shouted, pointing at the sly sneak as he raced down the rue in the rain.

[–]generalbuttnakd [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This guy is either a troll or this nation's education system is fucked.

[–]dalenger_ts [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The op has quite a few errors in their post. I'm still fairly certain they're being serious, though.

[–]RQK1996 163 ポイント164 ポイント  (40子コメント)

a sentence can be grammatically correct and end on a preposition, the problem is that teachers often don't teach it to kids to avoid confusing them with exceptions to complicated rules

[–]Bloodyhellgirl462 141 ポイント142 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The Latin structure dictates that a sentence cannot end in a preposition but Greek rules have no problem with that. On a side note, are we just going to ignore all the problems with OP's post? We are? Really?

[–]techiewriter 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The suspense is terrible! I hope it’ll last.

[–]Muroid [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And not just Greek. English grammar rules allow for sentences to end in prepositions. They do all the time, just like with other Germanic languages.

It's one of those rules that was literally made up by people who thought Latin grammar was superior to English grammar and it's been perpetuated ever since despite no one ever having actually spoken that way in English.

The "no conjunctions at the beginning of the sentence" rule is similar, in that it was created by some people who looked at conjunctions, decided that their purpose was to join two sentences or ideas together and therefore it didn't make sense if there wasn't something beforehand to be joined with what came after, so you should never put them first, despite this being done all the time.

These are the grammar rules of pedants who don't understand the rules of their own language.

[–]mankerayder [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Where to start...

[–]CayceLoL [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is why we don't have more deck slots.

[–]DontWriteZpforFp 52 ポイント53 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is this /r/badlinguistics bait?

[–]BIGlikeaBOSS [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I do be thinking so.

[–]JonathanSwaim [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It really looks like it. If so, there's some serious Poe's Law they're pulling.

[–]BornAgain_Shitposter 175 ポイント176 ポイント  (37子コメント)

Sentences can begin with and and but.

[–]vadergeek 56 ポイント57 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This definitely feels like one of the rules someone just made up to feel fancy.

[–]gamingwonton 110 ポイント111 ポイント  (7子コメント)

First, I completely agree with your sentiment, and it's disconcerting that we teach children poor grammar through negligence in children's books.

Second, LPT: Do not post on Reddit complaining about grammar with grammatical mistakes in almost every sentence.

Third, disclaimers: I understand that your post is not a children's book. I am not a writer and do not claim to know all grammatical rules. I am part of a communications team at work, and I typically fix everyone else's grammatical mistakes.

Fourth, I've edited the grammar in your post.

I'm a teacher and I do be reading books and stories to my class often.

I recommend: I'm a teacher, and I often read books and stories to my class.

*Side note: Even if it's an 'Irish-ism' to say "do be -ing," I wouldn't use it in a /rant post about grammar.

These books have so many mistakes, it drives me up the wall.

I recommend:

  • These books have so many mistakes, and it drives me up the wall.

  • These books have so many mistakes; it drives me up the wall.

The books are intended for people who are still putting together the building blocks of language and there are sentences starting with "and" or "but", sentences ending on prepositions, using the past tense instead of the subjunctive and others I'm sure.

I recommend: The books are intended for people who are still putting together the building blocks of language. There are sentences starting with "and" or "but," sentences ending on prepositions, using the past tense instead of the subjunctive, and others, I'm sure.

These books are published, there's editors! Do people just not care? They're directly negatively impacting the development of children through laziness!!

I recommend:

  • These books are published; there are editors! Do people just not care? They're directly, negatively impacting the development of children through laziness!

  • These books are published! There are editors! Do people just not care? They're directly and negatively impacting the development of children through laziness!

Edit: formatting.

[–]jetpacktuxedo 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Shouldn't the title also be "Poor grammar" rather than "Bad grammar"?

[–]gamingwonton 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not sure. I think both may be correct with subtle differences in intent.

[–]retivin 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bad implies morality or judgements. It's a subjective word. Poor implies objective deficiency.

Bad grammar, in this context, is incorrect. It should be poor or incorrect grammar.

[–]Jsum2003 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You are my hero.

[–]gamingwonton 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you! I want to be respectful of OP's frustration, purpose for posting, and regional differences in dialect. I juuuuuust couldn't help myself with this post/topic.

[–]PhoenixDownElixir [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There it is!

[–]Pupselchen [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As a non-native speaker: Why are the commas wrong? How do I decide on when to use a semicolon instead?

[–]sinadoh 70 ポイント71 ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm a teacher and I do be reading books and stories to my class often. These books have so many mistakes, it drives me up the wall. The books are intended for people who are still putting together the building blocks of language and there are sentences starting with "and" or "but", sentences ending on prepositions, using the past tense instead of the subjunctive and others I'm sure.

These books are published, there's editors! Do people just not care? They're directly negatively impacting the development of children through laziness!!

You do be reading?

[–]Declaration14C[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Oh yeah, ha, I'm Irish, it's a feature of the dialect. "Do be ____ing" is used to represent the continuous-present tense.

[–]CARL_BALLS_WINSLOW 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well I do be learning something new every day.

[–]WTFwhatthehell 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm irish too but that still sounds like the most back-of-beyonds country-phrasing ever.

Like a farmer saying "Oo-Arrr" in the british north country

[–]whereatemypants 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also Irish. Cannot fucking stand the 'do be' thing. It's a feature of Hiberno English that I wish would die. See also: Irish use of conditional tense. I mostly love the way we speak English, but some things make us sound really inarticulate.

Edited to add conditional tense bit.

[–]lunatic4ever 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sounds like something "I be hearing" a lot in rap music these days. Not sure I would want that in a children's book either.

[–]Declaration14C[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Exactly my point. How we converse is not how we write. I wouldn't write it in a children's book either.

[–]lunatic4ever 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A bit weird to read it in a post with THAT topic though, I will give you that 😂

[–]Headycrunchy 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ebonics is similar to old english

[–]thighcandy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

it's also horrible grammar

[–]sinadoh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well. TIL. :)

[–]deviandemonic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

hahaha oh man

[–]DIGGYRULES 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (5子コメント)

It doesn't bother me. When I speak to babies or small children I don't speak in formal English. When I speak to my middle school students, conversationally, I don't speak formal English.

It's not a big deal. Exposure to language is the key. Speaking to and with children, narrating, explaining, reading. Those are the things that help children develop language. They will learn the rules of grammar as they go.

[–]mapetitechoux 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am concerned that this is your big concern.

[–]Spangar 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (6子コメント)

"I do be reading books" Classic example of great grammar

[–]apcrcom 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (3子コメント)

"these books are published, there's editors" "I do be reading books"

So, what you're telling us is, you can't write the Language you are criticizing, but we should take your word there's an epidemic of mistakes, caused by laziness. Is that correct?

In regard to language, kids aren't stupid and have many, many grammatically and syntactically incorrect influences on their learning of language. We all did, growing up. We still managed to learn. Some of us even excelled in spite of being 'exposed' to incorrect grammar and spelling. I remember the argument back in the 50s,60s,70s that comic books were the beginning of the end for kids learning English grammar because of vernacular. Believe it or not, kids overcame it. If you think of kids as uncritical automaton sponges then, yes, they may well have their learning permanently retarded from the occasional sentence starting with a word you don't like that is arguably misplaced . I'm surprised though, that the academy where you were trained is churning out graduates with such a shallow model of language learning as to be wowserised by occasionally encountering unconventional language in children's books. Don't you guys read learning theories as part of your ongoing professional development?

[–]Libertine74 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Your post would be infinitely more interesting if you included examples.

[–]Declaration14C[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

That's fair. All the books are in work though. My bad I suppose.

[–]apcrcom 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (3子コメント)

"all the books are in work".?

[–]Declaration14C[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The books about which I'm speaking.

[–]PM_ME_FEET_PICS_GUYS 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (1子コメント)

"all the books are in work" doesn't make any sense in American English. I assume it's the Irish way of saying "all the books are at work"?

[–]rattatally 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (5子コメント)

But how else will we get the next James Joyce?

[–]Declaration14C[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Haha, does it undermine my argument if I say that I don't like Joyce?

[–]cinaedhvikLoosed Upon The World 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, it does, in my opinion.

[–]Declaration14C[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fair enough.

[–]your_moms_a_clone 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It doesn't, in mine, because I also don't like Joyce. It's all the grammatical mistakes they make in this post about grammatical mistakes that undermine his/her opinion to me.

[–]combatcookies [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It depends on the reason. You don't have to enjoy all classic writers; honestly, most people don't enjoy Joyce.

But if you dislike Joyce because of his use of grammar, then that disregards his cultural and artistic impact on literature. That would say something about your knowledge of the English language, and would undermine your argument.

[–]EternamD 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (3子コメント)

There are editors*

[–]thighcandy 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do be reading books

I read books

there's editors

there are editors

[–]justsharkie 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Correct me if I'm wrong (seriously, I'm no English major) but I always learned that you can start a sentence with "and" and "but" in conversational writing (hence a book) but professional writing like papers, documents and articles should never have that.

This is just something my newspaper-editor mom always told me, schools never bothered to go in depth on the subject.

[–]chris4290 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's perfectly acceptable in newspapers (and academic writing). Bryan Garner writes about it all the time. Read some articles from the Economist and you'll notice how often they start sentences with and or but.

Edit: Besides Garner, authorities including Eric Partridge (Usage and Abusage), Sir Ernest Gowers (The Complete Plain Words), H.W Fowler (A Dictionary of Modern English Usage (Ernest Gowers ed. 1965)), Theodore M. Bernstein (The Careful Writer), William Zinsser (On Writing Well), and The Chicago Manual of Style all have rejected the rule as illegitimate.

[–]AlwaysGivesWrongLink 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a teacher and I do be reading books

Well that looks like bad grammar to me. But to your point, I found an example here

[–]lampotron 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not a literary expert.....but I like sentences in books to read out as if they were having a normal conversation.

Sentence content has changed over the centuries as well. Some of the content we see written today would not fly with Shakespeare.

[–]chris4290 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Amusingly enough, Shakespeare fully embraced beginning sentences with and and but.

[–]aug- 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd like to comment on how communicative you are throughout all these arguments. Usually in these scenarios redditors get uber defensive and can't take any criticism. Kudos.

[–]Declaration14C[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I started the conversation. I'm hardly going to run away when people point out my mistakes or disagree with me. Thanks though.

[–]McRibCreampie 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Pretty depressing that you're a teacher tbh

[–]Declaration14C[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Because I care about children learning how to speak properly?

[–]apcrcom 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (3子コメント)

No! Because this post and your replies are hardly case examples of perfect English! The books you read the kids are the least of your worries I'd this is how you communicate in class!

[–]Diggery64 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (1子コメント)

These books are published, there's editors!

Aaaaaaand credibility lost

[–]thighcandy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I lost all hope at the sixth word of the post. Holy shit.

[–]Chaoss78025 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

With the amount of grammar mistakes in your own post do you think you should be complaining?

[–]quikatkIsShadowBannd 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I mean saying things like do be reading probably isn't helping the children either.

[–]rj2790 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hi I'm elmo. Me use bad grammar on childrens learning show

[–]FF7_Expert 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some people take a prescriptive (as opposed to descriptive) approach to writing. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with this.

[–]Ditches101 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm sorry " I do be reading books to my kids often" ...hello pot? this is kettle, you're black

[–]Sharkk_ 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that "subjunctive" is a mood, not a tense.

Also, there is not one "past tense", but multiple

[–]wklink [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/elitist-superfluous-or-popular-we-polled-americans-on-the-oxford-comma/

Many people who think they are good at grammar are good at following what they think are the rules: Don’t start a sentence with a conjunction, don’t end them with a preposition, etc. They may be less good at knowing why the “rules” exist, and I’ve yet to hear a coherent explanation of why you can’t do any of those things that didn’t involve Latinate references or such deep parsing of parts of speech and linguistics that the goal is lost — was the thought clear and unambiguous?

[–]combatcookies [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As a speech-language pathology student, I respectfully disagree. In most cases, this is probably neither harmful nor a mistake.

For example, starting sentences with conjunctions. They likely do this in order to keep sentences shorter. Not sure how old your students are, but I'm guessing 3-6 by the way you describe them. At this age, a child's short-term memory and language processing ability aren't at the point where they can take in long sentences. However, by leaving the "and" or "but" in there, it teaches the child where those conjunctions occur. When the child is ready to start forming complex sentences, those conjunctions are already in their lexicon. It becomes a simple matter of swapping a period for a comma.

Language isn't formed by presenting grammatically perfect, adult-like language to children. Ever heard of "parentese"? Adults adapt their language to fit the interest and ability of a child---simple sentences, high-pitched voice, lots of repetition, etc. As children mature, habits are reshaped, mistakes are corrected, and ultimately the result is mature language.

[–]Frenes [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You're nothing but a prescriptive grammarian. If you truly cared about your students' English you would realize that language changes. Prepositions at the end of sentences was actually a non native borrowing from Latin that was made by people who thought English was too low class. The subjunctive has been on the way out for hundreds of years. Even on TV shows written by professional writers you will hear "If I was" instead of "If I were". Deal with it, learn linguistics, help your students adapt to the future. You're welcome.

[–]HotPocketDisaster 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What about in dialogue? I got into reading when I was young because the Harry Potter books were coming out. Hagrid was a disaster, but that added to the character

[–]Declaration14C[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah no in dialogue it's grand.

[–]mj4276 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

ITT: an elementary school teacher who is fucking up the rules of grammar just like my elementary teachers back in the day.

[–]doobidoobidoobidoo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Why do we still care about grammar? Obviously people need to make their language understandable, but many of the rules that people come up with are just unnecessary. The lesser/fewer thing is kinda silly for example.

Edit: and as for the subjunctive - only one word in the entire English language changes for the subjunctive form. Can we just drop the subjunctive from our language​ already ffs?

[–]MasterFubar 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But those are differences in style, not grammatical errors. It's not wrong to occasionally split an infinitive or use a preposition to end a sentence with.

I agree with you on the subjunctive, although the correct use of subjunctives in English has been considered "snobbish" for the last hundred years or so.

[–]ubiquitoussquid 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

there's editors!

*There are editors, or they have editors

[–]miaustin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Didnyou purposefully leave tons of grammar errors in the post to make a point?

[–]Tassyr 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But it's completely acceptable for sentences to begin with and and but. And, you know what? I've never heard that rule before.

[–]nevia1974 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The post starts out with "...I do be reading...". Am I the only one bothered that a teacher uses that sentence structure?

[–]thighcandy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It would be charitable to call whatever that is a "sentence"

[–]Vladz0r 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If it's how people actually speak in the language, it's worth being in a book. It might not be "proper" but it would be more improper to give children a false expectation of how people speak by excluding words like "but" at the start of a sentence in books, when the people around them are actually using it that way.

[–]RadicalRexroth 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

All the bad grammar in Huck Finn really ruined it for me. /s

[–]bthorne725 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, sentences can grammatically end with connectors such as "and", or "but", however it's often not taught due to the debate of where exactly American English stems from. Anyway, in most instances, yes, a sentence can begin with a connector.

[–]okayyyyyyyyyyyyyy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Grammar is arbitrary nothing is real

[–]Schnozzle [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Tough to explain that to a six year old and then also explain why his teachers will give him bad marks for not following prescriptive grammar.

[–]okayyyyyyyyyyyyyy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm not arguing. I'm going to be a secondary level French/English teacher, and I say this all the time (sarcastically) when I get frustrated writing lesson plans. Especially grammar. Because we have to give our students the tools they need to succeed in a fucked up system, and it's hard. Especially for English language learners, students with learning disabilities, etc.

[–]JimTheHammer_Shapiro [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Shouldn't you say poor grammar instead of bad?

[–]Ringosis [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Shouldn't it be "books for young children"? And "borderline unforgivable" doesn't seem great either. Isn't it bad grammar to put a qualifier with a definitive word like that, like "definitely maybe".

[–]Logical-Lizard [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Vernacular.

[–]PhoenixDownElixir [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This post needs to be edited. The grammar is terrible.

[–]miskah [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Is this a joke post as its so full of errors?

[–]sezyu [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This has got to be bait. That first sentence is nonsense.

[–]gbmatt [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

But why cants we just getes owver ate. And I means it ain't much a problem is it.

[–]turgid_poo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Is this book grammaring rite?

[–]PM_ME_UR_LIMERICKS [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Such an obvious troll. Can't believe you all took the bait. Jesus

[–]AdrianBlake [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I see what you do there

[–]truthie [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You'd better never let them read Hemingway or Mailer or Salinger or Faulkner if you think those are sinful mistakes.

[–]truthie [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

These books are published, there's editors!

Ever heard the old expression of the pot calling the kettle black?

[–]hobbified [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Teachers like this (and why was it English teachers so much more often than anything else?) are why the school administration hated me. Seeing someone so utterly wrong, and such cheerful lack of understanding of their wrongness, put in a position to teach children, made me want to punch something. Still does, in all honesty.

The one I remember best was a woman who was teaching SAT Prep (so, teaching to roughly 16 year olds), with the demeanor of a kindergarten teacher. She had us spend the first class writing acrostics of our names (which she insisted were called "acroustics"). A few days later, a discussion of Latinate and Greek prefixes devolved into a lecture on the evils of circumcision. And she was absolutely full of nonsense definitions of words. If I hadn't gotten thrown out of her class by the second week, I think my test scores might have suffered. ;)

[–]parcequenicole 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Were you trying to be funny when you said "I do be reading"...?

[–]Schmek [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There is no way you are a teacher, or that this post is in regards to something that actually happened.

[–]StephenNesbit [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

/u/Declaration14C

Don't let these people get you down. You are 100% correct. I hate the, "It's just a book," or, "People talk like that, so what's it matter?" excuses.

We should keep ourselves to higher-standardized, technical writing when we write or type anything. Doing less belittles our intelligence, and assumes the worst of our intended audience.

[–]MEAN_MUG_SHOT -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe its because in the future, people just rely on auto correct.

[–]throwaway2901122 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sentences beginning with "And" can be grammatically correct:

"She walked into my room, handed me a Coke... sandwich...

And a cold icy stare."

We teach rules about grammar rules to kids to give them the fundamental building blocks of language. When one has a firm grasp of a language, one can dispose of the rules to an extent, because they make text more interesting in contrast to traditional continuous prose.

[–]Schnozzle [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What you wrote is a great example of poor grammar. It's a series of connected sentence fragments that are much less awkward when joined up as one. Try "She walked into the room and handed me a Coke, a sandwich, and a cold icy stare."

[–]thighcandy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Sentences can definitely begin with "And" but your example is about as bad as one could offer. But that's neither here nor there.

[–]anonymous_nola_dude -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Look at the on-air personalities.....especially in sports. Most of these people speak in Ebonics. These are the people kids are looking up to, rubbing off the worst kind of ghetto English imaginable.