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[–]so_mindfucked[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (26子コメント)

So this is a new type of thread that I'm trying out, sorry to impose it on you OP. Comments need to have a minimum of 1600 characters to be approved here - if this doesn't seem too popular I'll remove this altogether. Let me see how it works for now.

You can get the bot to do its work by adding "In-depth" to a self post you make.

[–]bhujia 109 ポイント110 ポイント  (29子コメント)

Answer for OP: No.

PS: This is a whole new level of chutiyapa by mods. Thanks for nothing mods.

Raj Malhotra (Shah Rukh Khan) and Simran Singh (Kajol) are non-resident Indians living in London. Simran was raised by her strict and conservative father, Baldev Singh (Amrish Puri), while Raj's father (Anupam Kher) was very liberal. Simran always dreams of meeting her ideal man. Her mother Lajjo (Farida Jalal) warns her against this, saying dreams are good but one should not blindly believe they come true. One day, Baldev receives a letter from his friend Ajit (Satish Shah), who lives in Punjab. Ajit wants to keep a promise he and Baldev made to each other 20 years ago—to have Simran marry his son Kuljeet (Parmeet Sethi). Simran is disappointed—she does not want to marry someone whom she has never met.

One evening, Raj enters Baldev's shop after closing time to buy beer. Baldev refuses and Raj grabs a case of beer, throws the money on the counter and runs away. Baldev, infuriated, calls Raj a disgrace to India. Meanwhile, Raj's father has agreed to his request to go on a train trip across Europe with his friends, and Simran's friends have invited her to go on the same trip. Simran asks her father to let her see the world before her marriage, and he reluctantly agrees.

On the trip, Raj and Simran meet. Raj constantly flirts with Simran, much to her irritation. The two miss their train to Zurich and are separated from their friends. They start to travel with one another and become friends. Raj falls in love with Simran on the journey; when they part ways in London, Simran realises she is in love with him too. Simran tells her mother about the boy she met; Baldev overhears the conversation and becomes furious with Simran. He says the family will move to India the next day. Meanwhile, Raj tells his father about Simran and that she will soon be getting married. When Raj says he believes Simran loves him too, his father encourages him to go after her.

In India, Baldev is reunited with his relatives and his friend Ajit. Simran and her younger sister Chutki take an instant dislike to Simran's fiancé Kuljeet because of his arrogance. Simran cannot forget Raj and is miserable about having to marry Kuljeet. Her mother tells her to forget Raj because she knows Baldev will never accept their relationship. The next morning, Simran is reunited with Raj when he arrives outside of the house where she is staying. She begs him to run away with her. Raj refuses and says he will only marry Simran with her father's consent. Raj befriends Kuljeet and is quickly accepted by both families. Later, Raj's father arrives in India and also becomes friends with Simran's and Kuljeets's families. Eventually Lajjo and Chutki discover that Raj is the boy Simran fell in love with in Europe. Lajjo also tells Raj and Simran to run away, but he still refuses. Baldev recognises Raj from the beer incident, but eventually accepts him. However, after he discovers a photograph of Raj and Simran together in Europe, he insults and slaps Raj and tells him to leave.

As Raj and his father are waiting at the railway station, Kuljeet, who is angry on hearing of Raj's love for Simran, arrives with his friends and attack them. Eventually Baldev and Ajit arrive and stop the fight. Raj boards the departing train with his father. Simran then arrives with her mother and sister; she tries to join Raj on the train but Baldev stops her. Simran begs him to let her go, saying she cannot live without Raj. Baldev realises nobody can love his daughter more than Raj does. He lets her go, and she runs and catches the train as it departs.

[–]so_mindfucked[M] -43 ポイント-42 ポイント  (28子コメント)

Sorry this whole thing is just a sandbox trial phase. I'll remove it if it blows up in my face, also lol nice workaround. I'm trying to encourage some better quality discussions in some threads, so the threads are totally optional. All you have to do is add "In-Depth" to the title and the bot will do its work.

[–]balajiiyer 51 ポイント52 ポイント  (27子コメント)

Mods abusing power is nothing new in reddit.

If you are trying for improvement in moderation why cant you just delete low effort posts.

Mod is lazy

Mod is lazy

[–]so_mindfucked[M] -30 ポイント-29 ポイント  (26子コメント)

In some threads, yes. It's not like we're doing this in all threads. If OP decides he wants in depth discussions, OP adds "in-depth" to title and bot will do work.

I don't think this is lazy at all. If it's unnecessary I'll remove it, it's not here to stay.

[–]balajiiyer 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (22子コメント)

OP never asked for 1600 char answers.It was just your experiment no?

You are saying like OP asked for it.

What result do you expect from this experiment?

[–]so_mindfucked[M] -12 ポイント-11 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Yep that's my fault entirely, so I've changed the flair. I wanted to see what the response would be. Obviously it wasn't positive since I was being a dumbass.

[–]balajiiyer 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Thanks

Your idea for in depth answers is good in posts OP specifies he need in depth answers.

[–]so_mindfucked[M] 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Yeah don't think I should have done what I did here, I just waited for someone to indicate they wanted a serious discussion and saw serious and pounced on it. The workaround by the parent comment here is hilarious lol.

[–]_2_4_8Leather Jacket 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I just waited for someone to indicate they wanted a serious discussion and saw serious and pounced on it

For that there is already the [R] or the Reddiquette flair, why the need for 1600 characters? A lot of info can be conveyed in lesser characters.

[–]so_mindfucked[M] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The Reddiquette flair can be repurposed for this and what was my original idea.

[–]chill_loner 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (9子コメント)

It's good of you to accept this. Thumbs up for that.

My suggestion is make a post on this and gather some consensus. It should ideally be top level and the character count will have to be much lower. The main purpose for this would be when OP doesn't want low effort comments. We don't need to do away with brevity for the sake of that. 300-500 sounds like a good range.

[–]so_mindfucked[M] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Words or characters? 1600 characters is roughly 300 words which is fair, I think.

[–]chill_loner 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Characters. See the comment I just made. That's about 70-80 words. I was able to put forth my points in that much. 300 words is four times that amount. That would be really stretching it. 100 words is a good threshold. That's 400 characters on average. If people wanna make a larger comment, they can.

First we must consider why will any OP use this flair? He will use it to avoid low effort comments. He will expect in depth responses but they don't necessarily have to be 300 words na. People will be dissuaded by that kind of requirement. Look at ELI5 for example. They have a really low threshold. Because in depth explanations can be made in fewer words. They just want to avoid outright low effort comments or comments lacking any depth whatsoever.

We also have to consider the fact that this flair can be misused where OP makes a post to rile up people but they have to post walls of texts to respond. That is a risk even where the character limit is low. You need to think from the perspective of a troll, shitposter and shill to make sure you have all ends covered before introducing something like this.

[–]lolwatrollwaHaryana 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm sorry but 1600 characters (not words) is simply too long. Nobody has that kind of time.

[–]so_mindfucked 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What do you think is a reasonable amount? 1000? 600?

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]so_mindfucked[M] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    1 downvote = 1 face blow up

    [–]sorry_shaktimaan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Ooh I replied too soon. I'm sorry the way this worked out. I hope you're not discouraged by this. I think imposing a character limit is a good idea if OP asks for it.

    [–]post4321 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    British Empire was not a benign empire. British had no cultural or historical affinity towards Indians and they controlled India only for their commercial and geopolitical interests. Despite the promise of dominionhood, British would have never granted India an Australia or a Canada like status because unlike them we weren't their kith and kins and both parties knew it very well.

    There was thus a limitation on the degree to which British could have devolved power in to the hands of the Indians. They could not for example allow Indians to form a representative government and expect the empire to continue existing and it's interests to remain secure. They weren't stupid enough to fall in to such delusions.

    1935 India act was the maximum extent to which the British could have devolved power in India. Any further devolution would have left the imperial interests in jeopardy. Hence this act was the last ditch effort by the British to contain Indian frustrations and legitimize their rule. Beyond this they had no recourse left but to turn India into a police state and use the threat of violence to control the country which was anyways always present in the background but now it would have become the only alternative. Earlier whenever the popular frustration soared as it often did, British used the promise of reform to calm them down but after '35 act in which they had used all their tricks, they had given separate electroplates to every community imaginable including dalits, their legal options were non-existent. Thus imperial framework was pushed to the limits but the Raj could only exist as an empire as it was rotted in commercial interests and not in any altruistic motives.

    So the election happened in the year 36-37, and the congress won the election and formed the government in most provinces. Despite British expectations, Indians turned out be good at administration and very often were better at it than British officials. Indian people too felt a stake in the government as unlike in the past they were allowed to freely interact with the their heads in a language both knew and have a free access to their offices. The overwhelming success of a short lived congress government earned it a lot of goodwill and popularity and solidified it's position both in British and international eyes, as a responsible player in Indian politics to which the control of India can be granted.

    But the success of '35 India act was only to remain short lived. As the war began in Europe, India was made to participate in the war without consulting Indian opinions. This irked Congress leadership which began to see the promise of autonomy by the British as complete farce. Congress government resigned and the popular protests followed. This time British had no alternative other than to use police and intelligence sabotage and hope the protest would die down which didn't happen.

    Around '38-39 when the war in western Europe was still slow and Nazis had still not started blitzkrieging London. Nehru had made a trip to England where he had met with the leader of labour party Atlee who was then in the opposition. He is said to have promised India complete freedom once he comes to the power. And when Attlee did come to the power, he did free India. So it seems to me that the key to India's freedom lies not in the damage the war did to the British economy and small scale revolts which happened in the aftermath of the war but as we see the plot was set much before it. British had failed to contain ambitions of elite Indians and frustrations of Indian masses within the imperial framework and it became the victim of it's own internal contradiction which was by the way chief strategy of Indian Independence movement

    India was also losing it's commercial allure too. British industries had moved away from the cotton and it was now dominated with automotives. British export to India was continuously drooping and it had ceased to remain the coveted market for cheap British products that it once was. Meanwhile the political pressure in India and the increasing public debts of the Raj had led to the imposition of certain tariffs on the imports which protected Indian business from undue competition.

    All of this led to the freedom of India.

    [–]won_tolla 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I like your approach to this. This is much better than the fuckall "YAS WE HAD FREDUM FITERS ALSO!" answers these threads usually attract. I was just complaining to someone that nobody has ever given me a convincing rebuttal for "WW1/2 gave India independence." Now I'm leaning towards "WW1/2 hastened Indian independence, which started sometime around ~1900 with the INC and gang."

    [–]abhi8192 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Now I'm leaning towards "WW1/2 hastened Indian independence, which started sometime around ~1900 with the INC and gang."

    I think it is quite clear if we look at the map of Africa and see for how long some of the countries remained colonies. WW1/2 both were important for India's freedom struggle, but they were not the only pillars upon which India's freedom is built.

    [–]won_tolla 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Clarification on that. When I say "gave," it's more like "allowed." As in "we would never have got it without WW2", not that we got it because of WW2. Make sense?

    Either way, difference is academic, as it does seem like the Empire was generally losing the ability to control the people. And that started in 1900ish with INC kicking off around that time and Tilak doing his thing.

    [–]Rudraksh77India 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    started at least in 1857 with the first war of independence.

    [–]won_tolla 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    First war of Independence wasn't for the India we know and love-hate today, though. It was for re-establishing the Mughals.

    [–]usernamecheckssout 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You are absolutely right. Their carrot and stick approach could not be carried on further. There weren't any more carrots to give away. A further devolution was only an autonomous dominion status, which is what Independence was.

    [–]enviouscheetah 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    It's a rather difficult "what if" question. It's like asking Hindu emperor Hemu defeating Akbar or secular Dara Shikoh defeating Aurangzeb. In any case, by 1930s the idea of India was firmly planted in the minds of Indians. Even now, almost every family India can name a grandfather or great grand father who fought for independence, violently or non-violently. My understanding was that 1857 sepoy revolt left deep sense of fear in British empire's heart for mutinies. British hold on India was largely due to Indian army. At the end of world war 2, there were incidents of mutinies, which shook British will to rule India. Now coming to your what if question, whether or not ww2 happened, another mutiny was definitely in the offing in the politically awoke India.

    [–]Sykik165 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    The plain answer is yes. Indian was moving towards Independence since the First World War, although this was still a gradual devolution of power. By the mid-1930s this had gathered force into the idea of total independence. If this impetus had continued India would have become a federal Republic by the mid 1950's.

    The Second World War, though, confused matters. Firstly, the exit from India was brought forward. Secondly, Pakistan, as a reality rather than an idea, emerged. (Also, the INA, and mutinies referred to below were consequences of the War, probably would not have come into play without it, but had significant effect because of it.)

    One of the main reasons why Independence was brought forward was the impending Cold War. During the latter stages of WWII, the post War texture of International Politics had become quite clear. The United States was keen on Britain leaving India so the USSR would find no ground here to foment anti-colonial revolution. They actually applied a lot of pressure on Britain. Also, Britain actively began to collaborate with the Muslim League for this reason - so, they would have a base of operations in South Asia if post-colonial India refused to collaborate with the West. The historian Alex V. Tunselmann actually calls Winston Churchill the grand uncle of Pakistan, with Jinnah being the Daddy, of course.

    Her book, Indian Summer, is a good source for this. Also, refer to Navdeep Sarila's In the Shadow of the Great Game. Olaf Caroe's Wells of Power, written in the 1950's actually reveals this plot, and shows why Pakistan was important as a base for military operations in the Middle East, especially to control oil.

    Tl;dr - India would have become independent. Partition would not have happened.

    Bonus: Subhash Chandra Bose would have been our defence minister. India would have routed China in 1962. (Sigh).

    [–]doinkypoink[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This is the kind of answer I was looking for. Insightful, giving good back ground and informative. Not a one word answer with DDLJ plot. Nonsense

    [–]Sykik165 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    We all have our own areas of expertise bro.

    [–]abhi8192 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    The answer to India's Independence demand was not "will it happen?" it was "when it would happen?" by the late 1930s.

    One major thing that is crucial to all this is the fact that War made the british economy weak, but it should be noted that their economy was on the decline even in 1920s and then the great depression happened.

    Another thing important to note is the fact that India was too big to control, if it do not wanted to be controlled and our freedom fighters had made sure that this was a common demand of every Indian household. Bhagat Singh or Gandhi may have different visions of how to achieve that, but both of them gained significant popularity nation-wide. India's struggle was no longer regional or hierarchical, people across the nation and all strata of life wanted independence.

    The major point that imperialists used to justify colonialism is that the natives of their colonies are barbarians and they are making them civil and introducing them to a quality of life. Conduct of the major leaders of the INC, their use of non-violence tactics and the support that they got from general population made it quite hard to justify imperialism.

    Last but not the least, Britain kept holding on on many colonies after WW2, so it was not like that WW2 had broke their will to have colonies, or make them that much weak that they can't hold onto a colony.

    WW2 surely helped in sped up the process, but it was not like if the WW2 would not have happened we would not have got our independence. It might have taken 5 more or so years, but it was bound to happen.

    [–]doinkypoink[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thank you for this reply. Throughout our school our history books have highlighted the achievements of our freedom fighters. But I've felt that world politics did play an important role in this whole process which is often over looked in school curriculum

    [–]redsky9999 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You might want to include signing of Atlantic Charter as another main reason why India got independence after WW2. BTW, Not just India, several other countries got their independence after WW2 ended. Atlantic Charter was signed by Churchill to get America support in WW2. At this point, Pearl Harbour hasnt happened, Nazi were at their Peak, So Churchill didnt have much of a choice. FDR got Churchill to sign-in Atlantic Charter which promised self-independence to all people including British Colonies.

    Also, Imperial Preference in Trade that British used to get from their colonies was going to be scrapped after War end, so economically, India was not going to be much viable for British. This was another promise that was made to American to get their support in War. So, Yes, WW2 played a major role in Indian Independence. End of WW2 was the end of British Imperialism and started a new "Free World" order under US leadership. ( and the cold War... ).

    Sources: 1. http://east_west_dialogue.tripod.com/american_system/id10.html 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Charter

    [–]DeludedIndianRemember my name. 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yes.If the WW2 didn't happen,Congress leaders wouldn't be in jail during the 1940's and thus the rise of Muslim League would have stopped then and there only.Hindu and Muslim would still have been somewhat united.Assuming that British still reject Gandhi's struggle for freedom then there would be a mutiny or a revolt.

    Now,the reason that First War of Independence in 1857 failed was that the soldiers couldn't follow orders from another leader but still they rallied behind the last Mughal emperor.There were around 6000 colonial officials compared to about 250 million Indians and about 2 million were employed by Britian.

    Coming to the financial power,Britain would have sent it's troops to crush the rebellion but they would need sea routes.The colonial powers in Asia wouldn't have helped them.We would need help from the Japanese to cut the sea lanes to prevent the re-inforcements.Seeing what happened at Bien Dien Phu where the French were defeated despite superior technology we could gave done the same with greater numbers.

    [–]lolwatrollwaHaryana 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Yes, I think the British rule was teetering by early 1930s, I would say that Jallianwala Bagh was the main trigger, a lot of British loyalists in Punjab opened their eyes after this massacre. It was a question of "When" not "If". WW2 definitely speeded the process though.

    [–]won_tolla 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    teetering by early 1930s

    To be fair, that was after WWI, which seldom gets mentioned in these threads, but was still a clusterfuck for Britain.

    [–]AlleriaY 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I have even better question. Would we have achieved independence if British had found massive oil deposits in India ?

    [–]DeludedIndianRemember my name. 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yes.Because remember everybody needed oil and that included Japanese.

    [–]house_of_kunt 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    No. WW2 allowed events like INA and the Naval Mutiny which significantly weakened the Empire's hold. Without the war, we'd still be a dominion at best, and a colony at worst.

    [–]dlx82 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Probably note. However, I think there would eventually have been a dominion status for India, which may have lasted till the 80s or so.

    Free India was to be a reality - the specific set of circumstances hastened the process.

    [–]DeludedIndianRemember my name. 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I don't know why many people are missing the Muslim League here.They were the dominant party as Congress leaders were jailed for opposing WW2.

    [–]odiya_puaOdisha 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Churchill once suggested using poison gas on us. Do you think they would have left so easily? There is not much difference between Nazis and British.

    WW 2 crippled them financially and Britain didn't have enough money to buy food(food was rationed). Britain also lost many battles and faced difficulties in suppressing communism in Malaysia. There was mutiny in the British army and huge social change(aristocracy was gone, Nazis made them beg help from the US. British technology was no more superior.).So, they became completely dependent on the US. The US wanted the superpower position, so they slowly and systematically, by close door meeting forced Britain to leave India.

    India would have gone to civil war, might have fallen to communism. USSR was slowly getting powerful. Instead of we being one country, we would have been many countries.

    [–]enry_straker 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    (Serious) Do speculations become a serious topic of conversation if they are prefixed with (Serious)?

    [–]dubeymanish 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think serious only means do not joke around or troll.

    [–]arz93 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No.

    By the end of the war, the British military was stretched too thin to hold India. Right after WW2, there were mutinies within their own ranks when the troops heard that they aren't going back to Britain and instead going to police India.

    Also, prior to the war, the pro-imperialists in the British parliament were dominant. It's aftermath brought to power, many who wished to dismantled the empire, which was coincidentally also what the US wanted, 'independent' markets which could be exploited by its massive industry.

    When you think of it, a whole lot of stuff happened that sped up decolonization. It was not just the battles. For eg, communism, which is anti-imperialist, became a major influential movement when the Nazis inadvertently created a superpower out of Russia.

    It's all very complex.

    edit: grammar

    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

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      [–]SubOrchestratorole ole ole 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      NOPES, because if world war II didn't occur, British would have

      1. financial might which it lost towards end of WW II to curb the rebellion of india easily. this might have dragged independence further in timeline.

      2. focus. britain was fighting to save itself. with this covered it had little focus on conserving its prized colonies. if you have any qualms, look at Falkland and Gibraltar.

      [–]lolwot87 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      FDR is one of the reasons for british empire giving independence to its colonies. United states wanted Britain to give up imperialism after the WW2.

      [–]teleph 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      If you are interested in alternate realities, I present one where India gets liberated in 1857.

      Without India's resources Britain loses both world wars.

      This thread is the worst of this sub - OP asks a totally non-serious question - completely hypothetical, with totally subjective answers and then a mod jumps on it and humps a new idea as if is no big deal.

      [–]RJWalkerMaharashtra 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      No but that in no way diminishes India's freedom struggle as the reason India was no longer profitable to Britain was our freedom movement. Remember that Britain held on to Hong Kong almost till 2000. One without the other would change nothing.

      [–]kuch_bhi_bolta_hoon -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      No we would not have. The Luftwaffe of the Nazis did enough damage to UK that there was dire need to reconstruct and heal all the hurts.The empire lost huge amount of man power and resources. It was impossible to run the colonies which they had spread out.

      They had no option but to leave India but not before meeting some of Gandhi's demands.

      [–]kuch_bhi_bolta_hoon -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      No we would not have. The Luftwaffe of the Nazis did enough damage to UK that there was dire need to reconstruct and heal all the hurts.The empire lost huge amount of man power and resources. It was impossible to run the colonies which they had spread out.

      They had no option but to leave India but not before meeting some of Gandhi's demands