全 82 件のコメント

[–]butyoucanteditfeminist police force 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (36子コメント)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with many of the points you make here.

In the spirit of dialogue and collaboration, I hate to come back at you with a 'challenge' to your position, because I believe that decent people can have a respectful back and forth and I never want to make anything personal.

However, I wonder about one thing you said: You seem to distinguish between real transsexual (in your words) people who have demonstrated some seriousness or commitment to their decision, from the current anything-is-trans-if-I-say-so brigade where trans is the new queer and some guy who thinks he's cool and feels like it is a woman one day and not the next and you're supposed to guess by the colour of his nail polish etc.. And I think many here or in wider rad-fem circles would agree that there is a huge difference between these two types of people. Many are far more suspicious of the latter, and many are somewhere between tolerant/understanding/sympathetic/supportive of the former.

I wonder where we might find compromise (a superb goal!) if, for some women (feminist or not), even the sincere, committed 'transsexual' remains unwelcome in private, sex-segregated spaces. I am not exactly speaking personally. My concern about male people in sex-segregated spaces probably goes in order of:

predators

perverts (voyeurs, fetishists)

neo-trans who don't fall into the prev two but are entitled and like to make a big scene about how they are Real Women

quiet, more typical 'transsexuals' who want to go about their day and are trying to avoid attention, not garner it.

But ultimately, for some people it may be immaterial how 'significantly' somebody has transitioned, when it is impossible to know whether somebody falls into one of the two first categories I describe above, and if somebody may not fall into the 'dangerous man' category, they still may not fall into the 'woman who belongs in this space' category. Furthermore, women cannot safely be expected to check for 'proof' of belonging, with reference to the credentials you mention.

In some ways, I think this is something of a pointless question. Because as we both know it is not the quiet transsexuals who want to peacefully get on with their lives who are loudly leading this argument, and it is not their rights the trans lobby is fighting for. They are fighting for literally anybody to be able to 'self-declare' (and no more) that they are a woman/man. This is a bigger ask, and a bigger fight, and I expect it is not ideal for the 'peaceful' trans because it is asking more of the public with a potentially larger backlash. We shall see.

I don't meant to be hostile when you've come into a potentially unfriendly space, and I am sure there is much about which we agree. I just wonder what compromise would well and truly look like. I am not sure that for some women there is any category of male persons who should be given a waiver on entry to private spaces.Though it may be true that some people are peaceful and pose no threat, it is impossible for women to be able to tell the difference and they ought not have to police such spaces. Further, they may still be uncomfortable with male persons, even if they are entirely non-threatening. Compromise may be very difficult to figure out, I fear.

*edit: paragraphs

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (35子コメント)

Respectful dialogue is possible, and hopefully reasonable compromise is too.
In my original post, I wrote the following:

Here are some of the opinions I’ve developed:

Women have every right to be skeptical of any male born person or any male appearing in a public female sex segregated space. This is a natural instinct, and trans advocates are asking women to completely disregard that instinct in the name of progressivism. Women should have the right the challenge any male born/male appearing in any public sex segregated space. PRIVATELY, Women should have the right to assemble and associate in any manner they so choose, including wbw and without protests from male borns and especially from non-transsexual male borns. Camp Trans, I’m looking at you.

For clarification, by ‘privately,’ I meant not in public accommodations, but rather a private event (MWMF for example). I think with public accommodations it’s always going to be more complicated. In these spaces, women are of course entitled to be suspicious of any male born person, and should be supported to challenge a male born person or reach out for a third party such as security, administration, etc. to deal with the situation.

The question remains though, what would we do with such a person who’s a fully committed transsexual and women don’t feel comfortable around them. I don’t have a good answer. I’m not sure there is a good answer. That’s part of why I’m here to bounce off some ideas and maybe together we can work something out. It seems a bit harsh to a send a post-op trans to men’s sex segregated space, but it’s also perfectly understandable that some women will not feel comfortable around a fully committed trans.
Maybe a private stall or private shower within the women’s facility to reduce vulnerability. Ideally, a small, separate trans/neutral facility separate from the men’s or women’s is probably the best answer, and should be encouraged in new construction and remodeling projects, but that doesn’t address existing facilities, and modifying them may be prohibitively expensive.

Your point about practically challenging male borns of any type is also true. Maybe some system can be devised to methodically manage these situations. This is more viable in the larger facility like a prison, shelter, etc. where these issues are probably more important (women have limited or no options). Whatever solution we come up with will probably never be perfect.

I totally agree with you regarding the current situation. Together we should the oppose the complete free-for-all that is being promoted by radical trans activists.

[–]BoozeBabe 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (34子コメント)

Why is the separate stall within the women's facilities? The compromise between a male who wants entrance into a space for females and the females who don't want him there is that he gets to be there? Unless he's going to teleport into the private stall he will still be walking through women's facilities to get there. Unless the separate stall is a steel cage that locks from the outside, it doesn't reduce women's vulnerability.

Why not put the separate stall in the men's room and give him privacy that way?

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (33子コメント)

Not seeing a naked postop trans and showering next to such an individual seems far better than the alternative even if you have to pass them in the hallway. There are certain issues that I’m concerned about. For one, I live a private life and do not want to broadcast to the male population that I’m a postop trans. Secondly, like yourself I’m also concerned about privacy and safety from males as well. I’m not saying I have all the answers.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Don't you think it's notable from a feminist perspective that when choosing between his own safety and discomfort and the safety and discomfort of women, a male just happens to prioritize his own? And then asks women to help him fight for it?

This is typical to male socialization and it presents an inherent conflict of interest within feminism.

What you are really asking for is that feminists switch to fighting for male-specific rights instead of female-specific rights, for your sake, sacrificing our own safety and comfort in the process.

This is not a beneficial addition to feminism. It's not collaboration, it's infringement. You are socialized to be entitled to do this; and women unfortunately are socialized to submit to it. If you have a genuine concern for feminism however you would realize this and not do it.

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (13子コメント)

So how do you address the issue that I would strongly prefer not to broadcast my fucked up medical situation to the male population? Am I entitled to that level of privacy or no? I’ve never exposed my naked body in any sex segregated space and never will. I’m looking to use the restroom and get out.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So how do you address the issue that I would strongly prefer not to broadcast my fucked up medical situation to the male population?

You can't imagine any possible earthly solution that gives you segregation from other men, and also retains the existence of female spaces for us?

Well hey if you ever manage to think of a possibility, I will support that measure.

But if you're intent on claiming that the only possible way is to make female spaces into unisex spaces... honestly the jig is up and it's pretty obvious you're full of it.

And honestly, if you can't think of any possibility, you haven't paid much attention to what gc feminists are saying.

Am I entitled to that level of privacy or no?

Hahaha. You really have no sense of irony using that word "entitled" do you. Do you think feminism just dropped out of the sky? That female spaces just materialized out of thin air? Or that anyone gave them to us? That we were able to simply say "hey we're entitled to this" and force some subordinate class below us to give it to us?

You think in terms of "entitled" because you are looking down on the subordinate class from your perch within the dominant class, and assuming that if you deserve something then it's we who owe it to you to give you what we have organized, fought, and worked for for ourselves.

I’ve never exposed my naked body in any sex segregated space and never will. I’m looking to use the restroom and get out.

So NotAllMen? This debate is NOT ABOUT YOU. This is about the comfort and safety of the entire female population.

Honestly this is just a broken record, men coming into GC spaces saying they're "not like the other transwomen". You all come individually, offering supposed collaboration, but really asking to be able to infiltrate feminism as individuals and redirect feminism to have women serve your interests at the expense of ours.

If you're genuinely not out to impinge on women's rights (which I really doubt given the mentality you're displaying here, as you apparently cannot even fathom a way not to), then put up or shut up. Organize amongst yourselves. You all come in here one by one, yet we NEVER see even a subreddit where you guys get together and display any indication of actually having the intentions you claim to. Get together, make a subreddit, make a facebook group, do google hangouts, whatever, but ORGANIZE around your own issues the way women have and every marginalized group has had to, and then BRING something to the table. If there is really some sizable contingent of "not like the other trans" out there who aren't just out to undermine feminism for their own interests, then show us. Get your own shit together, and then come to us and tell us what you want to do. If it's in line with the goals of feminism, then collaboration can happen. I can't say I'll hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

[–]terurin 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Transwomen made the decision to transition. As non-gnc men in male-dominant spaces and society, knowing the dangers and discomfort (at the very least) of being perceived as "feminine" in this sort of environment, they chose to transition in spite of that. I feel a lot of them didn't totally realize the extent of it until they began presenting as women.

It is unfortunate that it's like that, but it's ultimately a result of our patriarchal society that makes it dangerous to be feminine. It's ultimately a result of that which makes it dangerous for you, as a transwoman, to feel uncomfortable in male-only spaces, and that makes us, as women, uncomfortable with a male in female-only spaces. It is unfortunate, but it isn't on us to make it more comfortable for you.

You seem to understand why we would be uncomfortable and yet you don't, because you feel that because YOU would never do those things, you're not like them. And I'm sure you're not. But we can't allow one man in because he seems alright and presents as a woman. If that's the standard then we can't draw a line. You're not entitled to anything simply because you're not going to expose yourself.

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm fully aware that given the choice between two facilities, I will likely make somebody uncomfortable at some point no matter what. I don't think the responsibility should by default fall on women. It's a complicated situation. I think the third facility or individual partitions are best solutions, but those are frequently not available.

[–]sarasimply 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Getting defensive makes us all look bad.

Obviously I understand the difficulty you're describing. I've struggled for years to work out the bathroom/locker room issue in my head, and for trans people who really do look like their preferred gender, this can definitely feel like a complicated issue.

My own personal approach was to wait until, around a year and a half or do into transition, when people were almost pulling my hand off the men's room door and pointing towards the women's instead. At that point I did start using the women's bathroom when there was no unisex or family or handicapped facility. But even then, I only did so when I was completely sure that i was stealth in that location.

And as for locker rooms, I just flat out avoid them. Yes, it sucks leaving the gym as a smelly mess, but sometimes one's condition just simply precludes them from getting absolutely everything they want. I'm sure blind people wish they could drive cars. (I know that's not a perfect example, but in a way we do have a disability of sorts, and we can't expect any more than reasonable accommodation for it).

[–]butyoucanteditfeminist police force 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Hey, you seem like a HIGHLY REASONABLE person and I have appreciated some of the contributions you have made to this discussion. I am not trying to be petty or snarky, but I have a question:

But even then, I only did so when I was completely sure that i was stealth in that location.

How do you make this judgment?

I am certain that there are many passing trans people going about their days and most of us wouldn't do a double-take most of the time, so presume this is completely possible, and is always occurring. But given that you cannot know what is going on in somebody else's head, I just wonder what you use to make this judgment, rather than assuming that people either do not care or pretend not to notice?

Question entirely out of curiosity, not hostility.

[–]sarasimply 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

No I think that's a very fair question, for sure.

The best way I can put it is that people just... Look at you strangely when they either can't determine your sex, or you look out of place in that regard for whatever reason. It honestly still makes me really sad/sometimes really annoyed how much I've learned that perceived gender influences and colors the way people talk and interact with you.

I knew I was passing when people just flat out stopped doing double takes when they saw me, or strategically avoiding pronouns to almost hilarious degrees when talking to me. A few times at work I've been asked for a pad or tampon. Women started talking to me about their husbands/boyfriends in much less reserved/more honest terms than I had ever heard before. Men have stopped talking to me in public unless they want something from me. The few men I work with get mad when I don't laugh at their dumb jokes, or confused when I try and joke back with them. My patients expect very different(nurturing, "angel of Mercy" kinds of nursing care from me than they did before I transitioned.

There are lots of other little tells, but those are the ones I thought of right off the top of my head. I hope that answers your question?

In my experience, people just aren't very good at hiding their disgust/confusion/surprise when they see something out of place or unexpected. It was definitely a challenge to learn to stay stay vigilant enough to be aware of people's reactions everywhere I went, but learning to do so I think has kept me safe and the people around me comfortable.

I didn't know it at the time, but it was good practice for learning how to scan my environment for threats from creepy straight men--another area where I had no idea my level of privilege before I transitioned.

[–]butyoucanteditfeminist police force 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks for your reply. You are in something of a rare position having experienced two different 'sides' of that situation, for sure, with the insight that that entails. As for more interactive, prolonged exposure environments like a workplace, all of that makes sense. I guess I just wondered in particular about more anonymous/public places where I suppose you are relying on what you can perceive about people's apparent discomfort?

That's probably not a bad measure most of the time. I am sure people react indeed, even if only in mild surprise, when they wonder if they are seeing a man in a place one is not expected. But such a system would preclude people who are better actors than others, perhaps, and remains subjective. Like everything else I suppose!

[–]preraphaelitegirl 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have you ever actually met a MTT who passes? Because I never have, oestrogen doesn't really do anything physiologically to change men, besides making them grow puffy, small breasts. I have seen a lot of FTT who totally pass though.

[–]jojobaswitness 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So how do you address the issue that I would strongly prefer not to broadcast my fucked up medical situation to the male population? Am I entitled to that level of privacy or no?

But why must this fall on women and their spaces?

I know you're in a difficult position, but I think you should further analyze this reasoning and where it comes from.

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't have a good answer. I'll potentially make people uncomfortable no matter which facility I choose. With the men's, I may have to disclose my medical situation and expose myself to male aggression. I'd be perfectly content using a third facility if it's available.

[–]GenderCriticalDadI have a Sex. Not a Gender 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Use the disabled toilets?

[–]bisoubisoumathmath 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Where do your rights stop and the rights of women begin?

What you are arguing is that your right to privacy and a sense of comfort dominate those of women.

[–]Mudlily 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't agree that being concerned about one's own safety first is a male issue. I think that attitude is a human attitude.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is dominant-sex-class-typical socialized behavior to go into the subordinate-sex-class-liberation movement and ask them to instead fight for your comfort and safety at the expense of theirs.

[–]languidswanThe Big, Bad She-Wolf 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ideally, it should be. But self-preservation and pursuing your own self-interests is something women are socialized out of, they're taught that being assertive and caring about themselves makes them selfish and morally corrupt and unattractive (just look at the stereotypes pinned on terfs) while that's considered just a normal state for men. For further evidence of this see how libfems are handling the entire trans issue. It would never, ever happen that a subset of men would put a subset of women before themselves and their fellow men (hell, the average dudebros of reddit stand up for rapists and pedophiles), but women are quick to throw other women under the bus for special snowflake men.

[–]therurublog 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think separate unisex bathrooms are the only answer that doesn't require women to sacrifice their own safety and comfort. Your post was very reasoned but my hackles go up at mention of "compromise". These facilities already exist in many places - ie. Starbucks, many malls and department stores have wheelchair-accessible bathrooms that are this style.

[–]rutterkinfake nerd 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (13子コメント)

The preop/postop distinction seems to me about as close as we can get to a compromise. Though there are people it doesn't satisfy - female presenting people with penises, and women who still don't want a trans-woman in their spaces even if that person doesn't have a penis anymore.

The "third separate space" thing would satisfy pretty much all women who object to trans-women in their spaces. However trans-people might not like how it singles them out.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (9子コメント)

A significant reason I am opposed to the pre/post-op distinction is the fact that the majority of post-op transwomen are AGPs.

(just pointing that out since many don't know that and tend to assume the opposite)

The dehumanization and degradation that their fetish represent towards me as a woman makes me sick to my stomach, and so I am not interested in a "compromise" that involves me facilitating their ability to use me and other women and girls as props to act out their fetish which is so deeply offensive to us. Even if the risk of PIV rape is lowered.

That this is even up for debate among women (those who understand what AGP is) as to whether we'll submit to this just for the sake of submitting to it, really speaks to our socialization.

[–]rutterkinfake nerd 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

A significant reason I am opposed to the pre/post-op distinction is the fact that the majority of post-op transwomen are AGPs.

Is there a source for this?

Not trying to contradict you by the way, that's something I didn't know if it is true.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Autogynephilia: a Paraphilic Model of GID

Once considered rare, MtF transsexuals who do not conform to the classic pattern now appear to constitute a majority of those who seek sex reassignment (Blanchard & Sheridan, 1992), and in some large series comprise 75% or more of those who actually undergo sex reassignment surgery (SRS; Lawrence, 2003; Muirhead-Allwood, Royle, & Young, 1999).


Lawrence (2003) surveyed 232 MtF transsexuals who had undergone SRS with surgeon Toby Meltzer between 1994 and 2001; 86% of those giving a numerical response reported having experienced autogynephilic arousal at least occasionally before SRS, and 49% reported having experienced “hundreds of episodes or more” before SRS.

This data may have changed over time but it's what we have for now. Certainly within a decade or so we will likely see an increase in gay male surgical transition due to pediatric 'social' transition of LG population occurring now. Though I think with the acceptance of transgenderism culturally we will probably also see more AGPs coming out with it who otherwise would have been pressured to stay closeted. So who knows if the actual ratio will change. May also depend on laws passed. If we pass a law that says you must have SRS to access female spaces, that may drive up the rate among AGPs. If we pass laws saying it's a free for all based only on self-declaration, maybe it'll go down.

[–]vauquelinemind-melding vulvan 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The dehumanization and degradation that their fetish represent towards me as a woman makes me sick to my stomach

Before I worked on a project that involved heavy interaction with a large website for the "transsexual community," I wouldn't have known what you were talking about. Seeing how those men talked about womanhood, femininity, and women in general was the final nail in the coffin of my desire to try to give their disingenuous "tee hee we just want equal rights" rhetoric the benefit of the doubt.

If "equal rights" means accepting as "sisters" men who talk about women like womanhood is just a buffet of parts they can section out and claim if, when, and for as long as they choose, I'm absolutely against it. I don't hate myself nearly enough to knowingly support that kind of violation and exploitation.

[–]butyoucanteditfeminist police force 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

A significant reason I am opposed to the pre/post-op distinction is the fact that the majority of post-op transwomen are AGPs.

Similarly, though men historically and presently using their penises as a weapon is my major concern when we have these discussions, there is nothing to say that a post-op individual is not a threat. I mean I'd rather face a non-penised threat, but a person doesn't have to lay a finger on you to violate or invade your privacy, as you infer.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Definitely, and we probably shouldn't discount that post-op men can still be a threat in their own ways. There is of course the risk of other sexual assault, non-sexual assault, harassment, voyeurism, etc. There is also the inherent boundary violation in being made to participate in a fetish. There is also the inherent, almost incomprehensible level of offensiveness of that particular fetish. There is the psychological impact of the demand that women participate in this act of submission in giving up our hard-won rights and handing them over to a group of men, just because they want them.

And I simply don't understand why we're supposed to even consider putting up with any of that. We're not being asked to "compromise", compromise implies you're trying to acquire something and are going to settle for less than originally desired, but still something that puts you ahead of where you were before. Whereas what we're being asked to do is forfeit what we already have. And for what? For male feelings. That's it. Nothing positive in it for us. It's playing on classic female socialization wherein the mere lack of self-sacrifice renders you a selfish cold-hearted bitch.

[–]butyoucanteditfeminist police force 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is also the inherent boundary violation in being made to participate in a fetish. There is also the inherent, almost incomprehensible level of offensiveness of that particular fetish.

totally the kind of 'invisible' issues i was getting at, yes.

And re: the compromise/sacrifice stuff of your second paragraph, I agree entirely. It is not like men, or people in general, cannot understand that even if 'not all men' are X Y or Z, it is a problem with men. For example, those men who recognise that women are afraid when walking alone at night and will cross the street to move away from a woman even though they have no threatening intentions, because they understand that it is not women's responsibility to identify who is not a threat. The relative sacrifice of crossing the street is not much, and yet such an attitude seems so rare.

[–]strange-weather 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

huh. i was under the impression that it was the opposite--that AGPs are more likely to keep their penises (due to a lack of dysphoria?). do you have a source for that claim?

[–]qwertypoiuytre 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So, it's a bit tricky - MtTs overall (most of whom are AGPs) are overwhelmingly likely to keep their penises (80% is figure usually given). And that is a very important statistic in itself and not one I wish to obfuscate.

However - among the minority who do get SRS, the majority are AGPs, specifically 'anatomical' AGPs.

This is part of why I don't think there is an easy boundary between "truly dysphoric true trans" and "non-dysphoric fetishists" as the picture of the situation is sometimes painted. And anecdotally I have seen no shortage of very obviously autogynephilic men talking about surgery, e.g. talking about obviously fetishistic exhibitionism in female locker rooms, or just the way they talk about their anatomy itself. Here is a pretty classic example of anatomical AGP.

Now taken together, if 20% get SRS and about 80% of those are AGPs - that means about 1 in 6 MtTs overall are post-op AGPs. I think that's a significant enough number to take into account when discussing operative status regulations for female spaces.

Though as I mention in the other comment, I think there are all sorts of variables that could influence these numbers, and with how much the political and cultural landscape has changed in the last couple years, who knows. But bottom line SRS/dysphoria and AGP/heterosexuality are not mutually exclusive statuses for MtTs.

source and excerpts in this comment so I don't repeat myself

[–]strange-weather 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

interesting. wasn't aware of this nuance, thanks.

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

it's certainly not perfect, but I think it's a workable compromise. If a third separate facility space were available, I wouldn't have any qualms using it. If there's room in the budget, this should be utilized in new construction.

[–]refaire 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

In larger buildings at least, it would be easy enough to turn one of the men's facilities into a unisex bathroom and put signs up directing people there.

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is what I mean by coming up with solutions that are in everyone's best interest and provide a reasonable compromise for all parties. Just my humble opinion, but I believe GC activists should discuss the problems with modern political transgenderism but also allot more time to solutions like these. Thank you.

[–]Black_PhillipaDisgruntled Goat 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (1子コメント)

GNC men shouldn't have to be frightened or ashamed of using the male bathroom. It's a problem with male violence and an insistence that gender (clothes and presentation) have anything to do with being a 'real' man or woman.
Expecting women to give up our spaces to solve male intolerance of difference doesn't seem a fair solution for women or trans people to me. And no, I don't care is a FtT is using the same facility as me, no matter how she's dressed.
I'd advocate for unisex bathrooms to be available, and for us all to work on uncoupling sex and gender and questioning male violence and homophobia rather than accepting it as an unchangable state of being.
I hope that gender critical trans people speak up more, because pretending there's no difference between women and trans women and we don't have separate concerns and problems doesn't help anybody...but the same old angry men who are happy to lump you in with us and continue being aggressive assholes.
It's a weird one, because personally don't care about sharing bathrooms or even locker rooms (men can be creepy or violent anywhere, and I can punch someone in the nuts as well naked as clothed), however I totally respect women that do- their reasons are valid. Leaving the house shouldn't have to be a battle. Women have fought really hard for public spaces and their comfort shouldn't be a pawn in the game.

[–]butyoucanteditfeminist police force 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a problem with male violence and an insistence that gender (clothes and presentation) have anything to do with being a 'real' man or woman.

Yeah I'm pretty sad that we are focusing our effort on ways for women and transwomen to 'compromise' on how they can share facilities to get away from potentially violent men, rather than dealing with that violence. I think this point is painfully missed from the majority of discussion.

[–]IceIceKittyLion pronouns Leo/leor/leos 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (6子コメント)

A compromise where everyone wins is requiring third bathrooms. Everyone is safe and no one gives up anything, except for that sweet sweet validation that it always comes back to even by reasonable seeming people like yourself. No males in female spaces, period. Any excuse for you will be an excuse used for others, also there is no proof that post op males are less dangerous especially since so many of them are interesting in coercing people into unwanted sex. I've seen MtT tell stories themselves of raping or wanting to rape lesbians and straight men. No exceptions for any male.

I don't want women to have to worry if theres a male in the women's restroom. I want women to be able to immediately identify and raise the alarm. Men who look like men are already invading our spaces and raping and killing women, why raise the threat level against women? We deserve to feel safe in public too. Males are dangerous, body mods or no body mods.

Make your own spaces and leave ours alone.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right? He keeps saying "there's no perfect solution"... uhh perfect for whom? There is a perfect solution already for women it's called women's spaces. Why exactly are we supposed to give that up? Oh because he's "entitled" to privacy according to his own preferences i.e. in women's spaces that's why.

[–]bisoubisoumathmath 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

A compromise where everyone wins is requiring third bathrooms.

I don't think everyone wins here. Small businesses, and private and public institutions will have to spend money constructing these bathrooms. The government will then have to enforce and monitor the construction. There will be lawsuits if these institutions do not offer bathrooms that are up to code.

What if this small business or institution does not agree to the notion that transgenderism should require accommodation?

I don't think this is a situation where everyone can win.

[–]LovingLilith 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is what I think whenever someone brings that up. Really small businesses can do the single occupancy unisex thing but businesses in the middle bear the real burden. How are you supposed to find space to add a whole new bathroom to your floorpan for every set of m/f bathrooms?

I'm not against the idea of a gender neutral bathroom but most places that currently do this mark the third restroom as the family restroom. This is like in stadiums and malls mostly. I've used these restrooms before but I'd hate to hold up the bathroom from a parent who had some kind of emergency. Worse is that they would know I'm trans as I came out and probably dislike me for it. Just seems like a recipe for resentment there.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was no easy task doubling the number of bathrooms everywhere, as was done when women fought for ours, but with enough perseverance it was done.

We can't pretend like the biggest hurdle to it happening isn't that the trans movement isn't even fighting for it, and is often even vehemently against it.

Trans social acceptance is off the charts right now, certainly has more support than women ever had historically when fighting for basic rights. I doubt there were men getting fired and no-platformed if they objected to women's bathrooms. Hell they were probably given the front page.

If the major push on the part of trans activists were for additional spaces it would be happening. The political clout and financial and corporate support that the trans movement enjoys is like none any other social movement has ever seen. But the fight for third/unisex spaces would go against everything the trans movement stands for which is total disacknowledgment of biological sex and the need for sex segregation in the first place.

[–]jay7843 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And people on both sides of the debate keep suggesting that the answer to the cost issue is the accessible bathroom since that's neutral anyway and most places have one. But that just means that people with disabilities and medical conditions lose out. Not too bad if it's an area with one or two trans people but in a town where every other teen is non-binary... I don't think somebody who can only use that one bathroom should have to wait for half a dozen gender~whatever friends who could pee in any old bathroom.

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I fully support a third option. What should someone like me do until those are ubiquitous?

[–]sarasimply 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Op, I'm also a transexual male, and I think you may have a little more work to do before engaging in these particular topics.

The first issue is that most of what you shared here doesn't actually need to be said to any GC feminist. They're very aware of what the issues are and they know best (certainly more than we do) how they're affected by them.

And you mentioned what you, yourself, "might find acceptable"... But when it comes to women's issues, what's acceptable to you doesn't matter.

Our role in this fight, to the extent we can really have one, is to support and reinforce, not to lead or decide what's acceptable or dictate anything to anyone (except for dictating to men, which I'm all too happy to do and you should be, too).

On that last point, I feel like people like you and I are in a unique position to illustrate the undeniable fact of male privilege to those men (almost all of them really) who think it doesn't really exist. We're living proof that it does! We had it--and to some extent always will--and then lost a lot of it. We know more than most how exactly it feels to live with that privilege and then experience so many aspects of it being taken away once society starts perceiving us as female. I think that's an important reality that nearly all men and trans activists want to pretend isn't real at all, and I can't be OK with that.

On compromises, it isn't up to us what's considered "reasonable". All we should do is state our case when asked and then listen to what we're being told. As men we were used to our voices being the final word, and that can be a hard habit to break. But if you don't, you run the very real risk of taking over any spaces you enter and steamrolling the voices and lived experiences of the women within.

Don't do that. Let's be better than that. Let's just listen and learn.

[–]Caducea 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for this; I was feeling very similarly and not sure how to voice it.

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re making it seem as if I’m entering this space to educate GC feminists. That wasn’t my intent. I dropped in to express my humble opinions, and mind you they’re very unpopular opinions in the LGBTQ (esp. trans obviously) community right now. I also thought maybe we could have some constructive dialogue by addressing the current trans lobby positions and maybe arrive at a compromise where women and transsexuals are both better off than they are now. I’m not asking for perfect situation or a perfect answer, as I’m not sure there is one at least right now.

I’m not here to necessarily agree or disagree with anything GC feminists believe or uphold notions of male privilege or other aspects of feminist theory. I do believe GC feminists raise a lot of really important and intelligent points and find myself agreeing with many of them. I’d like to be considered a peer; I’m not prescribing how anybody should think about these issues.

[–]Br-BooMtT(rying) 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That last sentence is where you slip off... "I'd like to be considered a peer". We can't be. We should NEVER BE considered equally important when it comes to the matter of women's liberation. Being peers would completely defeat the point. Sit down, and when a woman speaks, be quiet and listen. If you want to help, then you need to internalize the fact that it has nothing to do with you.

[–]sarasimply 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

But you're not a peer. I'm not either. Not in this space, anyway. How can you be a peer to someone whose existence and experiences you clearly cannot understand?

Can't you see how wanting to be seen as an equal here is your residual male privilege at work? You expected to come here and be heard and respected because that's what you're used to; most men have literally never been in a space where their voices weren't immediately considered more important or relevant to some extent.

Women already know what they need to be better off. They tell us all the time--if we will only listen.

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

OK great, I'm not a peer, whatever. I thought this was a space to discuss the issues and problems relating to modern political transgenderism. I didn't know being female born was a requirement. I would think that being post op trans and in agreement with many ideas GC feminists have put forth, that my presence here would make sense. Perhaps I thought wrong. I'm not coming here as a man and being paternalistic. I'm coming here as a trans to possibly contribute even if in the smallest way, as I deal with a lot of these issues on a regular basis.

[–]Br-BooMtT(rying) 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Great, you're in agreement! That's actually a pretty good first step. Now put it into practice. Women don't need an olive branch from us, they need us to leave them alone.

You seem a bit hurt, maybe a bit resentful that you didn't get the 'you're a good ally' points you were hoping for? I'm a post-op transwoman too, and I get it, it can be really hard at first, swallowing the hurt when you aren't being told you are doing the right thing. Get over it. Think about what you can actually do for women, more then just 'agreeing'.

[–]Br-BooMtT(rying) 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sorry for the long post.

An essential part of being a genuine ally is respecting and defending women's right to say no.

"No, I am a lesbian and will not date you". "No, we do not want you in our bathrooms". "No, I will not call you 'woman' or 'she' or 'sister'".

There can be no compromise on this. We are male, and every time we ask women to give up space for us, make us comfortable at the expense of the social spaces that women have fought for centuries to carve out for themselves, we are acting just as every other man has. We are demanding women accept their place as the subservient class who needs to define their existence in relation to us.

I have seen here, and in other spaces, calls by women for us to reclaim our community from the narcissistic AGP's that have co-opted it. But I'm not entirely sure that's possible, or even that they did co-opt the trans-community.

In the past, we were generally understood as a branch-off of gay male culture. It's why we're a part of LGBT at all. AIDS devastated that culture, and just like gay men, we lost so many of our elders that could have been guiding voices. As well, many of the young transitioning transwomen who did survive that era disappeared, it was even sort of expected that this is what you would do. If you were able to afford penis inversion(or were desperate enough to go to the butchers taking advantage of that desperation), and were part of the 1/3 of us that became prostitutes, maybe you just disappeared as another women. If you were luckier, you probably married a husband, adopted children, worked in a female dominated field, and never once mentioned to anyone anything about your history, moving far away from anyone who knew, and only maybe telling the very closest confidants.

These two things meant that despite being a subset of a subset, AGP's began to over represent what it meant to be trans. This wasn't at all helped by the fact that everyone had read the DSM, and they would steal and redefine the lived experiences of being a young transitioner (just as they do now with women's lived experiences). They would say "Oh no, I just hid how feminine I was...for 30 years... in the army". (As a personal aside, FUCK YOU to the ones who say that. I wasn't being beaten up so badly for being a 'fag' that I had to change schools at 11 for no reason. You weren't hiding shit except the stiffies you got stealing your mom or sister's clothing.). But at least in the past, the AGP's would take a while to fully develop their idealized female persona...

Now, with the advent of porn, fictionmania, in the era of Jenner... That process is being hyper accelerated. A young crossdresser can go online and find a treasure trove, not only of porn and products that quickly overtake the original thrill of just wearing women's clothing, and make it so they need more to satisfy their fetish, they can find countless posts of support that this normal, this is how women feel, this means you are one, a real one!

What used to take until their 30's and older, is now complete in high school years. AGP also promotes the tendency towards narcissism. It's best understood as a sexuality that competes with their heterosexuality(and sometimes completely overtakes it, making an asexual). They actually FALL IN LOVE with this idealized idea of themselves as a woman(You can even notice how some will talk about their birth identity and female identity as if they were separate people). If you read Transwidow's blog, that's a perfect example of how her husband stopped loving her, and fell completely in love with himself as this self-indulgent sexuality overtook every other aspect of who he was.

In order to reclaim our community, we would need to somehow completely reclaim our narratives, together with women, say to the AGPs "No, you did not have our lives, and stop saying you did". The public will need to be made very aware of the differences between the two types of transsexual...

In order for that mutual allyship to be possible however, WE need to be the ones who compromise. Even if you're not comfortable being out to everyone you know, speak out just as women have been doing, use a gender neutral stall(You can say you just prefer the privacy). If NOTHING ELSE, donate to groups that are fighting back against this transtrender nonsense and the sick twisted pieces of shit who are using our lived experience as a way to prey on women.

[–]sarasimply 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you so much for posting your thoughts. It gives me some hope to see other trans people fighting on the right side of this issue!

[–]Dawnweinerdawg 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This was a completely fascinating read. Thank you for taking the time to post it. Would you happen to have a GoodReads account?

[–]Br-BooMtT(rying) 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, sorry. But I'm glad you found it interesting.

I'm not an expert by any means, that's just what I've put together after a few years of reading about the recent history of trans, the rare personal accounts of those who were there and survived it, and what the clinical side of things shows, as well as my personal experiences interacting with other transwomen. It might not be completely accurate, but I think it's at least got the general shape things correctly.

[–]Red_Dahlia221 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you. It's nice to be reminded that some trans people are really not on board with current trans theory either. I believe that everyone can be accommodated, just not how it's being done now.

[–]terurin 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I believe a small group of transsexuals hold similar positions to me and would be willing to work together with women advocates to work out reasonable compromises to these situations.

What compromises? There's no compromising. I used to think we could all work together but transwomen and actual women have two different goals. Even the Good Transwomen like yourself seem to prioritize your own safety and acceptance within a female community, perhaps fully realizing the danger that being perceived as "female" or "feminine" truly is within a patriarchial society. I don't feel you genuinely give a shit about the progression or feminism or women in general.

The problem with your bathroom idea and extending it to other sex-segregated areas is that 1) Trans people on a large scale do not want to be viewed as any different than cis people, they will not use a trans-only facility and 2) by placing your trans stall in the women's facilities you're basically just putting chicken wire around the problem and hoping it keeps the wolves out.

There are not real trans people and fake trans people. There are people like you who have gone through the moves and gotten diagnosed with dysphoria, and people who identify as the other gender for whatever reason they feel like. All are harmful to women. All reduce "woman" to gender roles and a concept rather than a real thing you simply are if you are born female. Everyone has dysphoria to some extent, perhaps not sex or gender dysphoria, but everyone has this dissonance between what they are and what they feel they should be. It doesn't mean they are what they feel they should be. And it doesn't mean that those who are already what those people wish they could be have any responsibility toward them. This would be like black people bending to Rachel Dolezal because she was involved in the NAACP and taught African Studies and was very educated on black matters. She's still not black. She still has no place in black culture or black society. She simply embraces the race as a concept, but has no idea what it's like to be black. No matter how gentle, a man in a dress is still a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Want to make it harder to prove that you're a Real Trans™? You'll I guess have to carry around some kind of certification that you in fact were diagnosed with dysphoria and went through a transition process. "But not everyone can afford transition, that's classist to assume everyone can transition!" OK, so just documenting that you have been diagnosed with dysphoria. That should be fair. Nope! "Not everyone can afford mental healthcare! And How dare you discriminate against the people who can't get the diagnosis!" It'll just become easier to be diagnosed with dysphoria. People will get their dysphoria diagnoses just so they can pass these tests. It's already easier than it was 5 years ago. You cannot set the bar. There will always be some way to contest it, and it will always be moved.

It's great that you understand the huge flaws in the queer/trans community's logic. It's uplifting because you aren't the first person who identifies as trans to realize these flaws and even actively come out against them. But a transexual man is still a man. I don't want to give up any part of my female only spaces, even a stall in the corner of a public bathroom, to you or any other men. I respect your opinions and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, but in my eyes, compromise is what got us here in the first place. Count me out.

[–]butyoucanteditfeminist police force 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There were so many parts of this I was going to quote as v well written but that is essentially all of it so, thanks for articulating this all.

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I forgot to mention Sylvia Rivera Law Project and their crusade to advocate for some of the most hardened, god-awful criminals with histories of extreme violence and often times, extreme violence against women, girls, and children. Truly sick.

Edit: Also, the cotton ceiling... And Riley Dennis. A walking, talking nightmare.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I believe a small group of transsexuals hold similar positions to me and would be willing to work together with women advocates to work out reasonable compromises to these situations.

So you want to work with women towards a certain set of rollbacks on female rights that would benefit one particular male demographic?

If you're really so empathetic towards women and concerned for our rights, why wouldn't you just say that you would support (i.e. in a subordinate position) women fighting for women's rights no strings attached?

It's tacky when men act like they're graciously offering feminism something when they're really just suggesting that we fight for this set of our rights to be rescinded instead of that set of rights, of course in order to coincidentally help that group of men. Why should women preemptively decide to "compromise" on basic female rights... so that men will help us fight for it then? If those men are claiming to genuinely want to help fight for women's rights for the sake of women's rights, how exactly are they assisting feminism by coming in and telling us to lower the bar?

This isn't nearly as obnoxious as what a lot of male 'feminists' do, it is all phrased very kindly and generously - but it's the same basic pattern of men wanting to get involved in feminism by bringing their own terms and conditions. Real support is just support, not trying to influence agenda.

[–]Red_Dahlia221 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I see your point, but on the other hand, if the reality is that a certain small number of people are going to be really making a commitment and fully transitioning, they probably would need some kind of special accommodations. I mean, it could be requiring single sex stalls or shower rooms in some places or certain types of ID markers or any number of things that really don't impinge on women at all, or things that actually would be acceptable and have criteria attached to not have women feel that they're making compromises in safety.

[–]GenderCriticalDadI have a Sex. Not a Gender 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yes that could be a compromise, but why should it be feminists who have to fight for it? Its a group of men with particular needs, why aren't they asking the rest of us (men) to work with them to make the men's facilities safer or expand the unisex facilities.

[–]GenderCriticalDadI have a Sex. Not a Gender 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Further thoughts: It could be the perfect way for straight male SJW to show solidarity with their trans sisters. Escort them to the gents and face down any homophobic hassle they get.

Of course you may put yourself in the path of actual physical harm and you wouldn't get the chance to act out your mummy issues by hurling abuse at women.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I mean, it could be requiring single sex stalls or shower rooms in some places or certain types of ID markers any number of things that really don't impinge on women at all.

I agree, and these are exactly what trans activists who are supposedly genuinely women-friendly should be fighting for, the crucial distinction being that creation of facilities or legal markers in addition to female-specific ones is in no way a compromise on female-specific rights. However OP is not advocating for that here, he is doing the classic 'this and that exception' to female spaces/sports/etc i.e. making them unisex but only for a limited number of men including him.

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What? I would totally support what Red_Dahlia221 is suggesting, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You continually speak to the need to regulate certain exceptions to sex segregation and "work out reasonable compromises to these situations":

  • If I were challenged, I would be ok with proving my transsexualism with medical, legal, or psychological documentation. It is a burden, but it’s an understandable price I would pay to have my condition/situation honored while improving the safety of sex segregated spaces.

  • There must be a higher standard for what is considered legitimately transsexual than just declaring oneself a woman.

  • The only exceptions I might find acceptable is if the person in question never went through male puberty or if all the women players agree to make an exception.

  • with no clause to protect children from seeing anatomy atypical from their own.

  • Women and girls should never ever have to see male genitalia in a sex segregated space.

Such is hardly a statement of unambiguous support for female-only spaces. You are obviously advocating here for exceptions to sex segregation based on legal and surgical statuses. And in the comments, you repeatedly imply that since unisex spaces are not yet universally available (and unlikely to ever be, since there is no political trans presence demanding it and even some protesting it), then men who choose to present in a certain aesthetic fashion are entitled to female spaces in the indefinite interim.

[–]HermETCThe Male GC deserves, but not one it needs 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I’d like to see some sort of reasonable compromise on the issue, but unfortunately more often than not, each side makes their points and then talks past each other. We need more dialogue, and ultimately solutions.

You used the word compromise here, which would imply women and male trans would be mutually conceding something in order to meet on common ground, though it may not have been your intention to project that idea.

Adding additional gender neutral facilities would not be a compromise with women unless they were conceding something of theirs; stalls, space, hours of use, etc.

[–]jojobaswitness 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You used the word compromise here, which would imply women would be conceding something in order to meet on common ground

Yeah, I just love how this word is used, as if women would even get something out of this deal that is being made for them!

[–]stillsuebrownmillerCare Feminist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have you checked out Gender Apostates?

[–]GCritthrowaway 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I haven't read through all the comments, but there are several trans and GC posters who line up with your thinking on the subreddit GCdebatesQT. You should join; lots of great discussions there.

[–]bisoubisoumathmath 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have debilitating sex (body) dysphoria and mild gender (social role) dysphoria.

Given the fungible, spurious nature of any definition of transgenderism and the false notion that feelings of malaise in one's body are unique to people who identify as trans, I suggest you investigate and search for stories--told in first person--by women who have transitioned then de-transitioned, and woman who are plagued by severe eating disorders.

By this definition of transgenderism, and the associated sex dysphoria and gender dysphoria definitions, there is not a woman I know who has not suffered from this.

You could also just look at pretty much at article illustrating the sense of malaise women feel while being in their bodies as we go through girlhood, adolescence, and womanhood. Trans-identified people do not have a monopoly on this--not at all.

If women with anorexia, or just any handful of teenage girls with body anxiety, had advocacy groups arguing for the legitimacy of their deep, psychological need for plastic surgery, it would be done.

If women with these struggles had the government telling insurance companies (and patients telling insurance companies, and insurance companies telling the government) that this cosmetic surgery is a health requirement, believe me, the uptick in cosmetic surgery rates would be staggering.

[–]rutterkinfake nerd 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for posting this. I actually do consider myself supportive of trans people in general. My only issue is the insistence on destroying the distinction between transgender and cisgender people. There are unique differences that need to be understood. For example, obviously reproductive rights don't affect trans people in the same way they do cis people.

I'm sympathetic of the bathrooms issue because I do think that trans people are frequently the ones at risk, and they are in a conundrum. They wish to present a certain way and just blend in to society so as not to call unwanted attention to themselves, and how are they supposed to do this when they're entering and exiting restrooms that apparently don't match with how they are presenting? I also believe people who say that trans people are frequently putting themselves in risky situations when they aren't able to choose their bathroom. But the fact of this problem doesn't completely eliminate the other side of the issue, which is that women have a right to demand their own private sex-segregated spaces. I don't think there is a simple solution to the trans bathrooms issue. But so many of the loudest voices on both sides appear to be people who refuse to acknowledge the complexity of the problem.

As for me, I think it'd be nice if we could live in a society where trans people felt so comfortable that they didn't even care whether people knew they were trans or not. That seems to be a truer form of acceptance to me. The trans people I do know in my personal life, I treat them the way they wish to be treated because it doesn't inconvenience me to do something like respect a person's pronouns. But I am not going to go so far as to pretend there is literally nothing different about them.

[–]AutumnLeavesInC 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've seen the strife between women and trans communities rage on for years and lately I've become more gender critical, such that, if I freely express my opinions to the vast majority of LGBTQ people, they would either shut down the conversation or brand me as transphobic bigot or a transmisogynist. This has occurred both online and in person. My life is complicated enough, and the last thing I need now are death threats, rape threats, doxxings, or other aggressive behavior.

I feel you on this friend. This-- these particular violent, abusive, and bullying tactics are one of the biggest problems with the mainstream trans movement. And all for having differing opinions.

I appreciate you being here. Thank you.

[–]Amareldys 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Check out Gender Apostates

[–]trashid1176 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The ever increasingly vague and broad definition of trans is ultimately bad for women and girls, but also undesirable for transsexuals. I don’t want to be grouped together with someone who admittedly has no sex/gender dysphoria and has a penchant for feminine style.

Oh God, another one of those more trans than thou types. You might be less of a male than other males, but you're not more trans than the rest of them.

[–]bisoubisoumathmath 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I believe a small group of transsexuals hold similar positions to me and would be willing to work together with women advocates to work out reasonable compromises to these situations.

Please clarify why it is that transsexuals do not instead work hand-in-hand with men and male legislators. That way you can defend your right to not be harmed by other men to other men.

Why do transadvocates not do this instead?

Why are women's rights to privacy, and safety the rights that must be chipped away?

Have you ever considered this before?

[–]recalcitrant-person[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Refaire made an excellent point here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/5yf41k/gc_sympathizing_transsexual_lurker_with_some/deptpjh/

This addresses the construction/remodeling costs with building a new, third facility. Again, not perfect, but this is a low cost, effective solution and could work in many cases.

[–]contecorsair 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"post-puberty male born people should not play in sports with women. The only exceptions I might find acceptable is if the person in question never went through male puberty or if all the women players agree to make an exception. Female born players on testosterone should not be permitted to play against girls or women"

I can agree with this at least. In sports it shouldn't be asked "What do you feel like on the inside?" but "Do you benefit physically from the performance enhancing effects of testosterone induced puberty either by natural or medical means?" So, ALL transpeople who have taken T or transitioned after male puberty should be banned from women's sports. I might be persuaded to let a boy who has been on puberty blockers his entire life participate on a women's team.