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DISCUSSIONDo other non-whites feel incredibly isolated and dismissed here? Who would be interested in our own sub? (self.GenderCritical)

preraphaelitegirl が 投稿

Earlier this week, a comment about some people's makeup being a form of self-expression I made was downvoted to hell, which is no problem, I know how strongly the women on here feel about certain things, however what I thought was pretty galling was a gay man's comment that the thought I had expressed was 'white feminism --- I got bingo!' which was conversely upvoted. As a mixed, black woman I find it astonishing that even in a frivolous and potentially inconsequential way, a man's opinion was held as more valuable than a black woman especially on a subreddit I thought was specifically to take back the meaning and definition of feminism from people whom it doesn't really concern. It reminds me of the gay/bi men I see exclaiming 'trans women are women!' with no stake in the game just for head pats or self-satisfaction.

I've noticed this in other threads as well. An ethnic minority person will discuss feeling isolated or 'othered' and immediately people who think they're being helpful will compare this to being white but attending a conservative college, or scoff at ideas like cultural appropriation without really understanding the effects and nuances of it. Or sneering at black culture or phrases. Why is this? I'm getting tired of it.

I'd like to hear more thoughts and experience from you, especially from other 'ethnic' people.

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[–]NoLadyBrainBiology is not a radfem conspiracy 40 ポイント41 ポイント  (8子コメント)

If you'd like a little bit of context for why some people in this and other radical communities don't always seem sensitive to racism and other issues, I can offer this:

Many of us come from libfem/SJW backgrounds that we have rejected. In those circles, everything is racist. Everything is cultural appropriation. White feminists lecture white feminists on white feminism. One is told constantly to "shut up and listen," which is followed by an angry rant or sermon where one is belittled and berated (often by another white person). Language is constantly policed and one can be called out and tarred and feathered for the most minor of infractions.

When one comes out of that cultist libfem/SJW haze, it can honestly be hard to adjust and reset back to a normal, rational place. For so long, everything was racist and cultural appropriation. Now that the haze has lifted, one can see that clearly not everything is actually racist and not everything is cultural appropriation. But it can leave one without an appreciation for what actually is racist and cultural appropriation. I mean sure, there are things that are obvious. But there is nuance to these issues that needs to be almost relearned.

And then we come to phrases that are -- pardon the term -- triggering. The last thing someone emerging from the SJW cult wants to talk about is "white feminism" where they are told to "shut up and listen" so they can get yelled at and belittled again. It's just like oh fuck not this again.

But "white feminism" is a real phenomenon, it's something that should be discussed, and it's something that needs to be discussed for women of all ethnic backgrounds to gain solidarity. Eventually a former libfem will realize that this sort of thing can be discussed in radical spaces without "shut up and listen"-style berating. Women can share their experiences, find out where they are similar, where they differ, and find ways to bridge divides.

All of this un-learning and re-learning can take a little time, and it can make some women defensive (not to say that that is a correct/good response, it's just a common one). It's not the job of women of "color" (I hate that phrase, I'm sorry) to teach white women about racism -- that's on us to teach ourselves. But I hope that you'll stick around so that we can talk, build a dialogue, and work together for the liberation of all women.

[–]SarkyMs 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (7子コメント)

But isn,t white people teaching themselves part of the problem. They have a tendency to swing too far, and find stupid little things troublesome where they would not be if they actually talked to the group concerned.

[–]NoLadyBrainBiology is not a radfem conspiracy 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (6子コメント)

You know how when people come in here and ask really basic questions about GC/radical feminism, we're like, "Hello, sidebar?" There are tons of resources for learning about GC feminism, and it's reasonable to expect a person to go and read about it, then come back with more specific questions/topics for discussion.

I feel the same way with racism. There are so many resources out there that teach about racism (orders of magnitude more than about GC feminism), and a white woman should read at least some of those resources and learn some of the basics on her own. Then, to avoid the pitfalls that you speak of, come back with specific questions and talk to women in the group concerned to learn more.

[–]SarkyMs 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (5子コメント)

How does a person who knows nothing tell a good source from a bad source, take everyday feminism as an example, if i decided to read up and stumbled over that pile of turds it wouldn't help me at all.

Sorry as somebody who isn't a big theory reader i find this obsessive "read up about it" mantra very irritating.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly, for anyone to act as though you can just read hard enough on any topic and you'll figure out the one true right answer according to Black PeopleTM or WomenTM for example means they don't really have any substantive knowledge on the topic themselves. No social justice advocate groups are a monolith. There are generally radical factions and more establishment-friendly factions. Look at Feminist Current vs EverydayFeminism like you say, or the history of Malcolm X and MLK Jr.'s views on each other's positions. Or look at the evolution of King's views over time; they change (radically) in and of themselves. That's why identity politics is bullshit. It's non-politics. To say as a white person the ethical thing is to accept what any particular black person says on black issues, means I'm accepting what that black person is saying at that moment, which means I am in effect disagreeing with other black people's positions. And this pie in the sky idea among today's liberals to act like you can just support all positions is to really support none of them, and it's just status quo-enabling cowardice.

There's obviously a need for basic respect in terms of not intruding on or dictating the terms of a movement for a group to which you don't belong, but this idea that it's the virtuous thing to do to suspend your own personal critical thinking and moral compass is intellectual laziness. But it is easy and it does get you a lot of social media brownie points and I guess that's what matters most these days.

[–]NoLadyBrainBiology is not a radfem conspiracy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Personally I just asked my black friends for recommendations. To be honest one of the very best recommendations I received was to lurk on Lipstick Alley. My friend told me that if I wanted to see how actual black women feel and talk frankly about issues that affect them, there was no better place. I've learned more from the comments on that site than from all of the academic resources I've read put together.

[–]SarkyMs 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I live in the countryside, i don't even know a single black person, my area is so white they bus people in the work in the indian takeaways. I do know 2 Iranians, but as they look virtually no different... they are sick of being presumed terrorists on telly.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]SarkyMs 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    One had to stop watching NCIS every single one.

    [–]languidswanThe Big, Bad She-Wolf 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I think there's substance to be spoken of here in a wider context, but the example you mentioned was neither "a man getting upvoted, and a woman getting downvoted", nor "a black person getting downvoted, and a white person getting upvoted", it was people voting for the sentiment they agreed with. Even here, you seem to display some remnants of identity politics, and that might likely be why you're getting downvoted both times in a subreddit heavily affiliated with an ideology that puts class analysis first, and whether what was said makes sense from a radfem lense, as opposed to who said it. I'd have voted just like it (maybe sans the downvote, because I do try to refrain from downvoting as disagreement), because that's actually a position I agree with, and that's the radfem position. You are free to hold a different position, but considering this sub is radfem-focused, you will get a lot of people who will disagree with you if you go in to defend makeup as a "personal choice".

    [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I think you're misunderstanding my issue. I think it's interesting that instead of trying to understand or explore what i meant, that a man threw out a buzzword and everyone automatically upvoted it. On a sub supposedly focused on steering away from the 'as a man' perspective.

    [–]languidswanThe Big, Bad She-Wolf 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The reason no one wanted to explore what you meant is because frankly just from that comment what you were trying to say appeared like a very common libfem position and thus not something overly thought-provoking because a lot of us already spent a lot of time struggling with certain libfem postulates that are required for that line of thinking, and we ultimately rejected them. Many of us here are over the whole "it's your choice" thing, it's irrelevant for class analysis which is what radical feminism is based on. The reason no one wanted to argue with you but instead resorted to downvoting you (not that I condone downvoting out of disagreement) was because that discussion was had a million times over and nothing new ever seems to come out of it.

    And again, no one upvoted that comment because a guy wrote it. A woman could have just as easily have written it; they upvoted it because they agreed with the observation where you were coming from was likely the standard libfem framework that a lot of us fervently believe is useless.

    [–]cleverusernamehere1 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Personally, I almost always forget to read flairs. So when I read the comments originally, I just read them as two disembodied voices in my head. I don't really attribute them to people of any type.

    I didn't really have an opinion on your comment, and I didn't understand his, so I didn't vote either way. But maybe other users were also just seeing disembodied voices and so voted based on the sentiments expressed - not the 'as a man' perspective.

    [–]astrologiques 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thanks for bringing up the discussion. We could find a way to make things better!

    Voting is influenced by a growing community of lurkers. Men weren't upvoted as much before (same pattern of upvoting men appears in TwoX, feminisms and pretty much every other reddit community). IMO many lurkers still look for "the middle ground" where everyone is nice and well-behaved at all times...

    [–]endthewooabolitionist 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I've noticed this in other threads as well. An ethnic minority person will discuss feeling isolated or 'othered' and immediately people who think they're being helpful will compare this to being white but attending a conservative college, or scoff at ideas like cultural appropriation without really understanding the effects and nuances of it. Or sneering at black culture or phrases.

    As I said in my other post there are a good few libfems here, I have seen some examples of serious cringey cluelessness regarding race, age, disability, lesbians, gender conformity .. but a lot of support as well. I'd like to see this talked about as and when it arises - you should be able to talk about it here and be supported in that.

    [–][deleted] 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    As the gay guy in question, I want to apologize to you. My flippant remark about "white feminism" was clearly wrong and I'm sorry. In my experience (which is only mine), I hear that term used most frequently by white people who want to earn social justice cred but engage in terrible, hypocritical actions themselves.

    Stupidly, I assumed that described you. I'm sorry.

    [–][deleted] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    People are actually downvoting an apology?

    [–]heartwitch 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Probably people who think you shouldn't have to apologize. May or may not be regular members of the sub.

    [–][deleted] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thanks. I guess I'm really confused. Seems like reddit's setup kind of encourages confusion and it makes it difficult to know if you're having a good faith conversation.

    [–]Red_Dahlia221 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I just ignore votes, they really don't mean much, especially in a controversial sub.

    [–]BimblebyGiant bipedal vagina. 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    a man's opinion was held as more valuable than a black woman

    I'm pretty sure I'm going to be downvoted to all hell for saying this but perhaps people just agreed with his comment more than yours? Personally, I completely agree with your comment, but I'm pretty sure if I'd written what you wrote I'd have been similarly downvoted, same if a man had written it (especially if a man had written it). People have very strong opinions on that topic.

    I can see why it is particularly galling given the demographics at play, but I think the whole 'person with the most oppression points gets to decide what's right' thing is a shitty system, and it's part of identity politics.

    Someone's identity has no bearing on whether or not what they say is true or not. It has a bearing on what they think, believe, and say, but not on the truth of those thoughts, beliefs, or words. I don't believe anything a woman has to say about feminism is automatically more relevant than what a man has to say, though I do believe women are far more likely to have meaningful contributions, on average.

    [–]languidswanThe Big, Bad She-Wolf 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Agree with you completely. People voted and should vote for the sentiment, not the person which is how it should be. Identity politics are shit, and even more they cannot be the sole determining factor in who is right.

    [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    We agree there, so why is a white man telling me my thoughts are in line with 'white feminism'

    [–]languidswanThe Big, Bad She-Wolf 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Are you sure we agree? Because the bulk of your argument is that you're a black woman and he's a white guy, as if that makes a difference to what you were saying respectively. White feminism is a shorthand for a certain caricature that your comment reminded him of, it's just the libfem thing where identity politics and personal choices rule, and intersectionality is virtue-signalled by obeying which words to use and which not. He couldn't know from your comment that you were black, and the only reason you knew he was a guy was because he had it flared; the substance of either of your comments had nothing to do with it. What you were saying does appear in line with white feminism superficially, because white libfems are notorious for paying lip service to intersectionality by hammering down on "problematic words" and not much else, of course not the entirety of your thought process or life experience was explained in just that comment which is what lead to the confusion. It was a superficial impression of his that was wrong, and he apologized for it.

    [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Badgering? You approached me to 'apologize' and 2 comments is hardly hounding you, is it? Good to see your true colors coming through though. Acting like a petulant child because the angry lady won't agree with you.

      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

      [removed]

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I don't think I need to say anything else.

        [–]wearstoomucheyelinerhomosexual lesbian 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        I've noticed repeatedly that black women often say that they need to take a break from this sub. Some of the women I saw saying that never came back. So, for those people that aren't here to share, I would like to state that this is not a rare opinion. It seems to come up fairly regularly. Usually in the comments, not on a post, but it does come up in posts, too. I wish things were different here so that black women felt more comfortable.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I've actually gotten several PMs saying this very thing, that they couldn't take it anymore. Hopefully more open discussions like this will create a more welcoming environment.

        [–]wearstoomucheyelinerhomosexual lesbian 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I don't understand why having a black gender critical sub offends some people. We have not one, but three lesbian-only gender critical subs, and no one throws a fit about that. The conversations are different sometimes, and sometimes people feel more comfortable saying things there that they wouldn't necessarily say around male-attracted women. There's a good reason why "exclusionary" subs exist. And people can participate in more specific subs while also participating in the main gc subs. One does not negate the other.

        [–]Red_Dahlia221 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I think there should be a black gender critical sub if there's a desire for it. If people want to get together around the things that they feel more interest or affect them, more power to them. I don't see why that would offend anyone.

        [–]DontEraseWomenWomen are human. Women aren't things. 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        [deleted]

        [–]annieareyouokayannieI am feel erased when we are not about me? 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (22子コメント)

        Hey do you think you could link to the thread? I'm having a hard time following what happened. I know I'm not the audience for this post but it's important for all of us to examine racism so if you could find it I'd really appreciate it!

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (21子コメント)

        https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/5j298b/thoughts_on_makeup_and_the_current_trends/dbdgwnr/

        Here we go. Token gay guy says something without knowing anything about the poster and everyone sides with them for some reason.

        [–]annieareyouokayannieI am feel erased when we are not about me? 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Thank you! I saw that thread but before this exchange.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        you're welcome! It was interesting how he immediately slapped that label on me. Almost like he didn't understand it...

        [–]annieareyouokayannieI am feel erased when we are not about me? 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I don't think he was calling you a white feminist, but pointing out you'd used the term. I think it's often used as a synonym for "bourgeois" but in this case even though I do disapprove of makeup I thought you had a point and it's unfair he pulled you up for it, absent context. You actually were talking about white feminism...maybe he just knew you get easy points for tossing that out derisively round these parts? Idk.

        [–]third__elk 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        My impression was that he assumed she was a fauxgressive white woman trying to score social justice points by talking about race, and not actually talking from her own experience? (Obviously that's a stupid assumption, and he has no business mocking her.)

        [–]annieareyouokayannieI am feel erased when we are not about me? 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yeah, I think you're correct. Quite the cringe.

        [–]transcangotohell 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        To me it reads more of a "man upvoted, woman downvoted" thing, as opposed to a "white person upvoted, person of color downvoted" thing.

        I could be wrong and am totally willing to hear more of your thoughts on the matter. But.

        Periodically, I take a break from reddit and it never fails, upon my return I notice that yet again another contingent of sweet little girls with sweet little dick worshipping mentality have installed themselves as the Mostest Feminist -- and so they upvote every dickhead and downvote every woman who objects to dickhead.

        I truly have no patience this time around. And yes, they also tend to be racist as fuck, quelle surprise.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yes, I agree, however it's interesting he immediately went with that label. To me, being an ally in terms of feminism means listening to what women say, not bleating labels at them when they express an opinion contrary to yours.

        [–]little_red_lion 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        ha! i have the same experience.

        [–]rfemthrowaway 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        (Using a throwaway because I've had bad experiences with "feminist" men reverting to type when I dared to question their virtue.)

        I agree with you. That guy creeps me out. I can't quite put my finger on it, but he seems to be collecting brownie points, and comes across like a gender critical version of a "Male Feminist".

        There's also a high school bully like aggression to his posts. He seems more preoccupied with hating MTTs than with defending the rights of women. Your post didn't provide an MTT for him to hate, so he turned on you instead.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        totally. I've gone through his posting history and am honestly really creeped out. He seems obsessed with labeling trans people narcissists and making pithy comments and bullying those who disagree with him. His posts come with a definite feeling of superiority. What on earth would he know about make up anyway?

        [–][deleted] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (10子コメント)

        As I said in another comment, I was wrong to assume what I did, and I'm sorry.

        There are two things I hope you'll consider, please:

        1. I don't think I deserve "token gay guy". I understand you were upset with me, but that stings and it makes the atmosphere seem like a hostile fight, rather than an unfortunate mistake.

        2. You gave no indication at all that you were black in your initial comment. None. Yet you expected me to know that. That wasn't fair, and I'm not wrong about that just because you're upset with me.

        [–]pinkpurpledinosaurs 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Why would she need to announce she's black?

        [–]jojobaswitness 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (6子コメント)

        You gave no indication at all that you were black in your initial comment. None. Yet you expected me to know that.

        More like, she gave no indication of race but you assumed she was white.

        [–][deleted] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Absolutely right, and that's a problem in itself. Perhaps you'd like to start a subthread raking me over the coals for that, too. Let me just offer myself up for your picking apart, because I deserve all of it. Never let up.

        [–]jojobaswitness 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Oh, please. Get over yourself with that attitude.

        [–][deleted] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I'd rather be amicable, so happy holidays. I hope you enjoy them in the way you're hoping.

        [–]jojobaswitness 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Glad to see you dropping the histrionics. Happy holidays as well!

        [–]Red_Dahlia221 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I agree with you - move on from the individual and deal with the general issue, if there is one. I don't like the piling on that often happens on forums.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        But you are. You're in a women focused space and your comments remind me of moronic male feminists who outnumbered me in my college's feminist union, aggressively enforcing their opinions of what feminism should be and not really listening.

        So? It's not my job as a black person online to go around laying it as a disclaimer so men like you don't throw dumb buzzwords at me. I don't expect you to know it, but I DO expect you to not immediately throw offensive terms at my opinions in a space that is supposed to be centered around women. Your posting history is concerning and tbh you sound like a bully.

        [–]jojobaswitness 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        I'm not white and I'm not American, I would be pretty pissed if people assumed I was a white American because of some opinion they deemed to be 'white', but I don't think that means nonwhites should make a separate group. Further segregation would defeat the purpose. I accept most discussions will be around American news and American culture because of it's majorly the demographic. However I'm glad you brought this up and I hope users think twice before assuming someone's race because they disagree with an opinion, it really lowers the discourse.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I'm not proposing segregation, I'm proposing a group where people like me can go and not be scoffed at by white people for having a different cultural perspective that diverges from a traditional radfem one.

        [–][deleted] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Honest question here. Are you under the impression that all white people come from the same culture?

        [–]othliathe worst 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Middle-Eastern here! I don't really read everything, so my experience is limited but I've had an alright time here. I haven't really seen any dumb comments on that level yet, but I know that it's inevitable that feminism, as a whole movement, has more white women than not, so it isn't like I'm not expecting a foot to go into someone's mouth.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Feet in mouths are to be expected, you're right. and to their credit, when I've challenged a few women on here they've tended to be really open to trying to understand another perspective, the rest tend to really dig their heels in.

        [–]endthewooabolitionist 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (9子コメント)

        a subreddit I thought was specifically to take back the meaning and definition of feminism from people whom it doesn't really concern.

        Even though the aim of the sub is " a radical feminist and women centered community .. a place to think critically about gender, the erasure of lesbian culture and the appropriation of women's spaces", in practice there are a lot of people here who do not respect that.

        There are a lot of people here who are vaguely gender critical but not radfem or woman centred, and many who are here to support liberal feminism and downvote radical feminist truths - so the voting and discussion can reflect that.

        I think what happened in the thread you linked is that the guy who replied to you saw "white feminism" and went off half-cock without actually reading your point.

        The other issue is that your post was downvoted at all - I don't like to see downvotes used to register disagreement. I know that's how it is reddit-wide but wish people would discuss instead, especially here where we do have a space to discuss these things.

        [–]little_red_lion 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

        i feel that way about deleted posts. if the post is gross and attacking the other person, ok, maybe it should be deleted, but i think most often we should keep all the posts up. even if its just to see how the RL world actually reacts to many of the ideas on this forum.

        [–]hotsoupleTERRIBLE PERfSON 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        I think deleting the post is protection for the person who wrote the post from their own objectionable content, and I find it more useful to know what they actually said in regards to understanding the conversation and the rebuttal.

        [–]annieareyouokayannieI am feel erased when we are not about me? 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        It's largely because they derail threads. Soon you have 20 women arguing with one misogynist and the actual back-and-forth between people participating in good faith gets totally drowned out. If the community would prefer that be allowed and comments left up for transparency, that should be established. Maybe make a thread about it? I can assure you the mods aren't trying to protect the users who make these posts, but the quality of the sub.

        [–]hotsoupleTERRIBLE PERfSON 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Yeah I get it, I didn't mean it so much as a complaint to the mods so much as just a personal feeling on deleted posts.

        [–]annieareyouokayannieI am feel erased when we are not about me? 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Oh I didn't think you were complaining! Some subs do leave up deleted comments, when the community requests it. It's a valid point.

        [–]heartwitch 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        I also don't like to see downvotes used to register disagreement, but I think there's a difference between registering disagreement and adding something that is dismissive of the entire topic or adds nothing of value. I went and looked at preraphaelite girl's downvoted comment and I can actually see why she was downvoted, because the first couple sentences sounded like a libfem dismissal of any criticism of makeup.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        It totally isn't. Where are you getting this idea that I was dismissing 'any criticism of makeup'? i was referring to the OP and her talk of the current trends. Yes makeup is a ridiculous industry, I don't really wear any, however trends like huge eyebrows and contouring on really young women remind me of stealing my cousins makeup and messing round as a teenager. That's all.

        [–]endthewooabolitionist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I guess we draw the line in different places. I think that someone posting that make-up is "fun" a good enough start for discussion and doesn't need downvotes. Men who come here to derail are a quite different matter.

        [–]qwertypoiuytre 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Neither comment adds value to the conversation, both ought to be downvoted. The first is a libfem non-analysis of makeup, followed by accusation of racism where there wasn't any, followed by using the term "white feminism" which is a phrase frequently used to promote liberal/anti-feminism. In combination with the explicitly libfem makeup commentary, it's not surprising that someone might assume the phrase is being used in the trite virtue-signalling manner it often is and decided to be snarky about it though him being upvoted rather than downvoted for doing that is disappointing.

        [–]heartwitch 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (6子コメント)

        She didn't use the term "white feminism," though. She referred to "all white feminist circles," which seems like a pretty neutral descriptor.

        [–]qwertypoiuytre 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Whether "white feminism" or "white feminist", sorry I don't see the difference or how it would change how I'd interpret it.

        Also to clarify, I'm not saying that talking about racism in feminism itself as a topic is unwarranted, just noting that the terms "white feminism/feminist" have been used to promote a lot of anti-feminist bs, similar to the co-opting of "intersectionality" and all sorts of other libfem terms. And in the context of liberal feminist commentary on femininity and unfairly calling someone racist for not knowing the meaning of a made up word, meaning an otherwise empty comment, it's not surprising someone didn't take that particular oft-manipulated buzzword included in the comment seriously either. As far as serious examples of racism in feminism I just don't think this is one. It's one person making a poor comment that was rejected by the community, and another person being unnecessarily childish and snarky in response.

        [–]heartwitch 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

        And there you have my biggest problem with the "white feminism" concept and its unholy spawn -- it becomes impossible to distinguish between "feminists who are white" and "feminists who prioritize white women's problems."

        [–]qwertypoiuytre 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Yes, and while that may not have been intentional in its inception, I think that lack of distinction in itself is something that the liberal community has come to relish; it's become an easy outlet for a new liberal-approved "progressive" form of misogyny. Hate women but want to get social justice points while you do it? Use the new liberal dog whistle "white feminist". 99% of the time I see it used in the same manner that "cis" is, it's just trotted out as a buzzword to indicate generic disapproval. Rarely do I see it connected to any specific issue. It's become its own popular trope, never quite explicitly said but often implied, that White Women are the new ultimate oppressor class. The total lack of institutional power is just an irrelevant pesky detail. In a world that loves to blame women for everything, now the left has an easy way to reconcile still being able to blame (at least a certain subgroup of women) for everything and express total revulsion towards them and get a pat on the back for it. No specifics complaints needed, just trot out the white feminist line and you're good to go. Lefty men love the white feminist line, and even liberal women love using it just the same, they get to express their own internalized misogyny, make a big fuss at a group that's an easy target and has no real legal, economic, or political power (liberals' favorite past time in general), and feel super righteous doing it.

        [–]Badaboumtsouintsouin 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Exactly it's an improved way to say women to shut up because they are being bad. There are problems in feminism sometimes lesbophobia sometimes racism but it's not by using buzzwords we will make them go away. And the user was making a libfem point people disagreed with as they were right to do and then there was a snarky comment by a man who didn't understood the situation. I don't see the big scandal in this story.

        I think that there might be evidence of real racism that could be use to make the conversation go further in here.

        I think identities politics have ruined a lot of things.

        [–]qwertypoiuytre 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Yes and ultimately I think it's a new improved way to say that sex based oppression doesn't exist.

        Sometimes it's between the lines and sometimes it's explicit. But every day it seems I see another poplibfem article about how white women are just steeped in privilege and once I even read that "whiteness outweighs femaleness" so basically white women by virtue of being merely female have nothing to complain about (and need to stop oppressing everyone else with all our nonexistent institutional power).

        The bottom line that is always implied is that being female is not an axis of oppression in itself - black women are oppressed, "queer" (but not lesbian of course) women, disabled women are oppressed. But white women? They don't know how good they have it! Living the good life. I think it's funny how you used to hear the term "white male" fairly often (or straight white male or straight cis white male), but I think I hear "white woman" (or white cis woman) far more often these days as the label for the ultimate privileged class.

        And I realize that is not how intersectionality as a concept started. But that is absolutely how it is implemented the vast majority of the time now in the media. And in the long run it will help no subgroups of women if sex is rid of its status as an axis of oppression in itself. In fact that throws intersectionality in itself out the window for any doubly but not triply or more-marginalized women.

        [–]Badaboumtsouintsouin 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        And in the comment of this post op said racism was worth than patriarchy. And didn't want to keep on talking to someone who said otherwise.

        I don't even get why she comes to a radical feminist forum if she doesn't agree with our point of view and then complain that we have radical feminist ideas.

        She is either a troll or vastly uneducated on what radical feminism is.

        [–]lonewomanbikerVULVA LA RESISTANCE! 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Sorry that happened.-

        If you have a job, you might not have a choice with the makeup thing. I have to wear some make up for my job. I tried to go makeup less, and avoid this burden and waste of money- but- I could not even get hired in a shit-job until I put on mascara, a natural-looking lip color stain, and some kind of hair gel. As a female, you can be labeled 'ungroomed' if you don't. Men only have to worry about being clean their hair looking 'neat' at my job.

        I still think it is better that the women told that they have to wear panty hose and stripper heels in the office.

        Supporting women that feel the need for make up or supporting women that are forced to wear make up to keep employed, is not 'white feminism to me.

        'Wearing make up' is promoted as a 'confidence builder'. Women are allowed very few confidence builders and always reminded that they are not perfect, but it is one of the few socially acceptable confidence builders women are allowed to access.

        To me, 'white feminism' is the basis for claiming prostitution is a choice.

        [–]wholewomantalk 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        That whole thread was weird. I got into a debate with someone insisting I was slovenly in actuality, and not that I got that perception from others simply because I don't wear makeup. It's not at all the response I'd expect here to the comment I made, so it's not surprising to me that there were other...odd...exchanges in the same thread.

        [–]heidischallengedum spiro spero 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yes. The thread was weird

        [–]La_DiablaThe Princess of Darkness[M] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I'm a mod here (Indigenous/Chicana) I don't feel uncomfortable because I help make the rules - i.e. Eurocentrism should not be tolerated in discussions here. I deleted comments and ban users who made racist insinuations. Don't hesitate to report racist/Eurocentic posts whenever you see them and don't be afraid to call out the users in this sub.

        The morons in the stalker sub keep saying that it's all white feminists here but they're good at making gross generalizations and cherry-picking comments to support their ass-backwards, illogical conspiracy theories.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Thanks for the support, and I agree anti-feminists tend to jump on things to support their own conspiracy theories, though according to reddit's general demographic it seems logical that most of the people posting are white.

        [–]Badaboumtsouintsouin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Concerning reddit and even more the new transgender problem. I think the queer transgender theory is a western problem specifically in english speaking western countries. And as people in the west are in a vast majority white, white people are more present in here.

        And for reddit in general if you don't say "for women" you will have a majority of men, same for sexual orientation and race.

        [–]Unnie55 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (4子コメント)

        If I am not mistaken, reddit is largely white dominated. I would assume most of its subs are of the same demographic. While I enjoy this sub for the most part as a black woman, I have noticed the dismissal of some concerns about white feminism and its issues. Black women have often been shut out of feminist discourse and white feminists were certainly not fighting for the rights of ALL women when feminism first gained traction. Even now, when white fems discuss "intersectionality", they are talking about including trans (white) and don't really give a damn about WOC. White feminism has never been for us if you know what I mean.

        I would suggest you read some literature on womanism, which is essentially black female feminism. I no longer associate myself with mainstream modern feminism for a variety of reasons. I come here because I don't think you need to be a feminist to be gender critical.

        I would also suggest you check out Lipstick Alley's feminist/womanist forum. They're actually how I came upon this sub. Its a black forum and many of the womanists there are not in favor of the trans movement. Its another safe space for women to discuss these issues with minimal backlash, specifically black women. The website as a whole, though, is a bit polarizing and you need a bit of a thick skin. Its primarily a gossip forum but the feminism section has some great topics.

        [–]lonewomanbikerVULVA LA RESISTANCE! 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        when white fems discuss "intersectionality", they are talking about including trans (white)

        I noticed that liberal feminism tends to do that. When they talk about internationally, they mean supporting the wants and needs of white males, but try to make you think it is about POC.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        womanism

        Thanks for the tip, my first forays into womanism left me unimpressed but that was a few years ago and I've changed since then. I've also lurked a tiny bit on lipstick alley back when I was growing out my natural texture. I'm definitely going to give it a go. Can I ask why you've chosen to stop away from mainstream feminism?

        [–]Unnie55 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Because I want nothing to do with the 3rd wave. I am also annoyed with the way feminists put silly issues like free the nipple over FGM and human trafficking. Gender politics and lib fem ideas have taken feminism over and I don't think women are benefiting at all.

        [–]thefarrahmonster 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I do think this sub can be a bit out of touch when it comes to racial issues and the way patriarchy affects WOC. I just want to say I hope you stick around because I think the last thing this sub needs is less diversity and personally I enjoy hearing the thoughts, opinions and experiences of WOC radfems.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Thanks! Even if i did make my own sub, i probably wouldn't ever totally disregard this one.

        [–]U_R_MY_UVULAI'M OVA IT! 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        I read the original post and the context of your comment chain. You make no mention of being black and you have no flair saying so. People on the internet are not going to assume that you are if you don't mention it. We will assume that you are white because that's statistically most likely to be the case on reddit. (White AND male on all other subs)

        Maybe you're saying that this part specifically

        i also find it interesting that your tone seems quite dismissive of the term 'on fleek' which is a black term used for ages

        highlights your race? But I don't think it does. Anyone could have pointed that out.

        I'd also like to point out that, yes, 'on fleek' originated within the black community but it has since become a VERY popular descriptor phrase to youth of all races. I've heard tons of white kids saying this in the last ~2 years. The phrase has lost it's race largely and is now associated with an age group more than anything and I think this is what the original poster was hinting at in her post, being more so ageist than racist. And dismissive of youth culture in general (the makeup look described is also part of modern youth culture because that's what's 'in' right now.)

        And about what that guy said, the "Bingo!" thing. I don't really have anything to say about that other than it was a meaningless fluff comment. I personally don't think he should have posted it because it added no value to the conversation. He incorrectly assumed your race but he didn't really have much to go on other than stats. It doesn't strike me as offensive though, just incorrect. It did nothing positive for the thread though, even if he were correct about your race it still wouldn't have added anything to the conversation.

        In conclusion, I urge you not to splinter this already very small community. We need to stick together.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Thank you for enforcing every problem I highlighted, . My issue with flippant racism and ignorance is being dismissed by you, instead of considering this you're urging me not to'splinter this already very small community'? By beginning a conversation about its eurocentricity. What should my flair be? Mulatto?

        EDIT: Also, nice bonus of erasing black culture there. 'This isn't yours any more, it's owned by the white youth'. Same with bae and twerking. I'll just wait for you guys to get sick of it and declare it 'over' so I can dust it off and take it back.

        [–]pinkpurpledinosaurs 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Good job dismissing everything she said. She shouldn't have to announce her race or be considered to be white, that's ridiculous and racist and calling the guys comment "meaningless fluff"? OP obviously didn't consider it to be.

        [–]jojobaswitness 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        We will assume that you are white because that's statistically most likely to be the case on reddit.

        But can you see you're proving OP's point? This is what she means by being dismissed.

        He incorrectly assumed your race but he didn't really have much to go on other than stats. It doesn't strike me as offensive though, just incorrect.

        Normally it's incorrect and not malicious, but in the case that's being pointed out, it was done to dismiss her comment. I don't even agree with what OP was saying (and I disagree that she was downvoted because she was black, I think she was likely downvoted because she was taken as white talking about race) but have experienced a similar thing from libfems before (who think I must be white because they are white, and then it's my burden to prove I'm not) and it gets tiring.

        [–]NPerez99PETTY UTERUS 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I've noticed a huge community of lurkers around here that are seriously affecting the voting. Looking at that thread I don't even understand why you got downvoted at all, to be honest. But I have been seeing that a lot lately here. The stalker-sub are here on the daily now.

        edit: Yeeeep, the stalker sub it watching this. http://archive.is/22t6X

        Having said all that I often wonder if splintering a small group is a good idea. I have run into disagreements and downvotes and sometimes fruitful discussions that changed minds here in this sub, and would not want to go to another one. I do see when this place has a lot of stalker sub visit and urge everyone to be vigilant in reporting the new names when they start trolling.

        [–]languidswanThe Big, Bad She-Wolf 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Looking at that thread I don't even understand why you got downvoted at all, to be honest.

        Because what she said was blatantly contrary to radfem analysis. I doubt the stalker sub would downvote her for defending makeup as as "personal choice" while radfems would.

        [–]NPerez99PETTY UTERUS 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I could see disagreed with, that happens. But downvotes usually happens to obvious-visitors-from-stalker-subs or MRA's who suddenly wander in here.

        [–]Eclectic58Resistance is NOT futile 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I don't know what race any of our contributors are unless they make a point of telling the group what race they are. Nor do I see opinions about makeup as a racial issue. I'm a bit baffled here.

        [–]endofthelinerXX-Marks-My-Sex=Female 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

        OTOH, you used the word "girls", so I assume you meant minors? That's very, very offensive to many women. You said, "It's self expression and for many girls it's a fun exploration and changing up their looks."

        I'd say, hit the books if you want to explore but that's just me.

        No one is perfect--no matter who we are.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Er, I was referring to my own experiments as a teenager exploring goth/alternative subculture. So yes I WAS referring to minors.

        [–]endofthelinerXX-Marks-My-Sex=Female 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        But in another thread, you said you weren't allowed makeup until you were 18: "Oddly, I wasn't allowed makeup until I was 18 because I had to develop a sense of self esteem outside of it shrug."

        18 is an adult, at least in age and legal terms. And I think your parents were wise to allow you to develop a sense of self esteem "outside of it". That aligns with my own value of character being developed by what you do, not how you look.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Right, except after a certain age i snuck out with my girl cousins and snaffled theirs and bought it and hid it. My parents would punish accordingly if they caught me. Now I am glad they were strict, because after the rebellious goth/emo nonsense and messing around with friends I feel really ok with my face.

        [–]endofthelinerXX-Marks-My-Sex=Female 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        At least it was only makeup!

        [–]ethanGeltanNon-delusional Man 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (6子コメント)

        white, male. Feel free to stop reading now/disregard.

        All I'll say is I've been here for ~3 years and seen the community fracture a number of times over disputes between users and other users, or users and moderators. It's almost always an important issue that causes the split, so I won't disregard that, but every time I just wonder if it's really that helpful to fracture the already small community even further, in the face of far bigger problems.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

        'white, male''

        So why is your opinion valid here? You aren't part of this community, you come here for head pets. Racism mightn't be an important enough to you to spark division but I'm so happy that you will never know its impact on your life. What 'bigger problems' are you talking about, person who will never have to face them?

        [–]ethanGeltanNon-delusional Man 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Patriarchy?

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Right, and you realize that racism is equally damaging and affects ethnic women in a far greater way, yes?

        [–]ethanGeltanNon-delusional Man 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Yes.

        I don't come here to fight with women, and even in my top comment I wasn't actually disagreeing with you. I was just offering some history. If your perception of racism in this community is enough for you to want to leave that is 100% valid and I'm not questioning that. All I'm saying is that every time I see a split, I wonder if the issue that caused it (as I said in the top comment "always an important issue") is worse than everything else this community was built to fight, and if the people who leave are actually happier and more productive in their new subs with all of 20 users. If they/you are, all power to you.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You said that the bigger issue was patriarchy. Honestly I don't know why I'm engaging with you, I don't care what you think.

        [–][deleted] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Everyone has a right to share his or her opinion. As long as people are respectful and try to add to the discussion, I see no reason to be so nasty to someone solely because of his RACE and SEX.

        [–]mna_mna 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        That thread is pretty subtle compared to the comments in this community around the time of the Alton Sterling shooting, there was just straight up unapologetic racism. I totally believe you would feel alienated, for some reason white people cant shut their damn mouths (full disclosure: am white, mouth not shut).

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I remember that one, and it made me incredibly uncomfortable. 'I can't mourn another black criminal' and other sentiments.

        [–][deleted] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        theres an unspoken rule among radicals that women of color have to prove their allegiance to womens liberation by sitting through as many racial insults as possible. As soon as you say something, they accuse you of being "male identified"- even though for some strange reason these same racist females will fumble over themselves to defend the honor of white gay (and even straight?!)men. Months ago, an Indian woman said something about the culture and a white woman contended with her over her comment for whatever reason. Last month there was a thread on white women voting for trump and the first response was blaming black women.

        truthfully, yeah I would prefer a space that's radical and prioritizes the input of women of color but I can't really organize anything like that and I hate reddit.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I've felt this a few times on a few subs, including this one, on reddit. I keep having my thoughts dismissed as playing into 'identity politics' even OTT.

        [–]othliathe worst 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Middle-Eastern here! I don't really read everything, so my experience is limited but I've had an alright time here. I haven't really seen any dumb comments on that level yet, but I know that it's inevitable that feminism, as a whole movement, has more white women than not, so it isn't like I'm not expecting a foot to go into someone's mouth.

        [–]daughterofmaafa 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Hey OP, I'm also mulatto, I started posting here some time ago and then stopped because I don't have to subject myself to more white supremacy than I already have to face without escape. I come here very seldomly anymore and just lurk. I don't even remember my old account's PW. I made a new one just to tell you I agree 100% and you are not alone. Many of the comments under this just prove your point. As for all the "we shouldn't be divided further": It's not us who set the fire. It's not our duty to be your allies when you fail to collect your fellow white brethren. If you make a sub, I will follow.

        [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        thanks for taking the time to post on this. A lot of this thread is only enforcing my alienation. The amount of dumb point-scoring is outrageous. Someone threw in the fact that they're disabled and their kid has autism as a way to dismiss my point (???)

        [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

        [deleted]

          [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Errrr, but I AM black and this is how I feel? I don't understand how this is supposed to make me feel better?

          [–]suburbansoulgirl#000000+XX 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I haven't had much issue here so far (but I am new to this sub); however, I'd love to link up with other black GC radfems, so interested in a sub for that purpose.

          [–]KevlarSweetheart -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          /r/blackladies may be better suited for that discourse?

          [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          why is that? I'm here to get the opinions of BME women within the radfem sphere specifically.

          [–][deleted] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I have a serious, lifelong disability and a son with autism. Both of these seem to inspire a lot of irritating, supposedly helpful, comments. Everybody always rushes to tell me how much they "get it". They don't, not unless they have lived it. Yes, these things are different than race. But I think you are dealing with a human thing, not a racist thing.

          [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I'm not sure how your disability is relevant here, could you explain how it is?

          [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

          [removed]

            [–]preraphaelitegirl[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            You don't see the difference in mocking certain phrases or ways of dressing that really don't harm anyone and cutting someone's genitals unnecessarily?

            [–][deleted] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Honestly, not really. It's all covered under "behavior influenced by culture". That being said, I would not personally make fun of the way people dress. If I made fun of phrases, it would be because they are young and hip, not because they are used by any particular ethnic group. I don't really find myself making fun of many things though; it would be more like expressing a negative opinion about. I do appreciate hearing diverse opinions about things though. If you feel like your opinion is particularly relevent because of your ethnic background, by all means, let us know where you are coming from. I would be interested to know, for example, how makeup use carries a different connotation in Black culture. (if it does.)