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MetaNew Rule Proposals (self.HPfanfiction)

denariiHeadmaster[M] が 投稿

I'd like to see what people think about two possible new rules.

The first is "no sexual content between adults and minors", inspired by a recent Harry/Lily Luna fic search where the fic in question featured Harry and a young, teenage Lily Luna. I don't know where this stands legally, but I'd prefer not to allow it here.

People have sufficient issues with this one that I'm dropping it for now. I still reserve the right to remove blatant pedophilia.

The second would enact stricter moderation in request threads. We've had complaints about people going to into request threads just to insult the OP or dismiss whatever it is they're looking for as stupid. Comments in request threads would be limited to recommendations or constructive discussion.

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[–]denariiHeadmaster[S,M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (6子コメント)

Since people are wary of the wording of the first one, what do y'all think of "no sexual content featuring minors and people significantly older than them"?

The intent of the rule is to catch things like the Harry/Lily Luna fic I mentioned in the OP or that creepy pedo fic where Harry and Luna groom a younger student.

See edit to original post.

[–]Starfox5 106 ポイント107 ポイント  (12子コメント)

I'd rather not see reddit start censoring requested fics. That's opening a can of worms, and who knows where it'll stop. Enforcing it will also require people to read such fics to check if they actually violate the rule, or if some troll just reported a post because they don't like the poster, topic, or whatever. And if people start deleting threads on hearsay "because they trust the report", or whatever the excuse will be, then that's even worse.

[–]Taure 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I haven't upvoted you this hard since that time I saw your masterful use of magical cores.

[–]misplaced_my_pants 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Link?

[–]Murky_Red 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

There is no link, it is just a dumb inside joke of this sub.

[–]Taure 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Stop criticising his request!

[–]SuperAlexIYCooKing Up DoPE in THe Croc POt -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

1) If you're recommending a fic, I should think that you've already read it. 2) It's not Reddit censoring, it's the subreddit, meaning that you can just make a new one. 3) You put a lot of stock in people reporting because troll, I doubt anyone other than the heaviest keyboard warriors on the standard /r/HarryPotter uses it.

[–]Slindish 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

It forces the mods to read it to make sure the report is accurate or it could easily be abused.

[–]SuperAlexIYCooKing Up DoPE in THe Croc POt -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It forces them to do their job? So what? Reports can easily be abused now.

[–]Missing_MinusDelirium 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The moderators most likely don't have the time or inclination to read every fic that passes through here. Yes reports can be abused now, but doing as said would just make it even more open to abuse.

[–]Brownskinboy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So how do you think this'll go? You come across a story mentions something that offends you, like rape/child abuse/racism. You don't like that, so you report its recommendation to the mods. Next, one of 2 things will happen.

  • The mods will go read the entire story, subject themselves to whatever you aren't willing to subject yourself to, judge if its 'appropriate' or not, and then either remove it or ignore you. This is at best ineffecient and at worst downright useless.

  • The mods will ask you to send them the paragraph or section that set you off, and judge the fic from just that section. This is judgement without any context, and when it comes to stories it's just not fair to judge the entire thing off of one paragraph.

Either options seem pretty unusable.

[–]SuperAlexIYCooKing Up DoPE in THe Croc POt 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Racism is entirely subjective, it's put in the books by the Virtue Signaling Celebrity herself. Child abuse was in the books as well, rape is just a thing that Death Eaters likely did, nothing offends me in writing really. Go nuts, just don't start writing about a forty year old male fucking a fourteen year old, it's highly disturbing. Tonks is at least relatively close to Harry age by the time he reaches his fifth year, she's twenty-one or twenty-two depending on her birthday, he's fifteen. But then you have Harry/Bellatrix and Harry/Narcissa, I get just as disturbed with those pairings as I do with Hermione/Lucius or Hermione/Snape.

[–]deirox 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The second one sounds great.

I'm not sure how the first one wouldn't mean a blanket ban on fics pairing Harry with Tonks, Sirius, Snape, Voldemort, Narcissa, or whatever other adult character while he's still at Hogwarts. I mean, those aren't my cup of tea, but they do make up a pretty large portion of all fics ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[–]Quoba 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not sure about the first one, it will forbid many Harry/Tonks Harry/Bella etc.. About legal stand, I don't know which country's laws Reddit follow but many countries in the world "allow" stories featuring minor sexuality, even with an adult.

But I totally agree for the second one. I was downvote many times when I looked for a fic where Hermione isn't Harry friend.

[–]TE7 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (7子コメント)

The first is tricky because of what constitutes an adult and a minor. Even just by using say, the Wizarding World of Britain's '17 is adult' point, you could be technically violating ti if say, a seventeen year old and a sixteen year old hook up.

Obviously that's not the intention of the rule. Setting something up like that is opening a can of worms. I agree that I'd rather not see it here; but like most things I rather not see here I typically just ignore it when it comes up. I feel like moderating it in a way that 'fair' opens up far too many loopholes over other things that people find less problematic.

I mean arguably my own story Letters features an implied sex scene between a 17 year old Fleur and a 14 year old Harry Potter. The Pureblood Princess has a 17 year old Daphne and a 16 year old Harry engage in such activities as well. Although the only actual activity in the text occurs when both are 16.

Technically if it's 'no sexual content between adults and minors' neither of those would be 'allowed.' Of course, they're far from 'smut' scenes. So there's that too.

The second one I shrug at knowing it comes in reaction to what was actually, in my mind, a perfectly legitimate request that the author felt insulted about.

There is probably something to be said from perhaps moderating comments that aren't directly related to the request. But if someone said 'recommend me your worst Harry/Fleur fanfictions' and the top recommendation was 'Letters' I'm not going to throw a fit about it.

It really just is what it is. It's an opinion that is quite often based on something. Silencing that user doesn't seem right to me. But maybe moderating away things that aren't directly related to the request could be useful.

I think I mostly just rambled and didn't say anything of note.

[–]emestlia 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's not about your own fic being recommended in a thread asking for worst fics -- sure that requires a tough skin as an author you're bound to get criticism anyway :)

The second rule sounds like censorship , but it really isn't -- discussion threads exist for a reason and if it really irks you that there are some people out there requesting fics that you can't fathom how anyone could possibly enjoy ... that's where you should go to talk about it. Not in the thread where someone's requesting for fics and not discussion. Maybe they could say discussion welcomed and whatnot if they're up to trying to convert /defend their likes, but this just sounds distasteful, not everyone is polite when it comes to handing out their opinions.

[–]TE7 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (5子コメント)

In my experience most things that sound like censorship, are censorship.

While I do personally abide by a 'if it doesn't pertain to you, and you have no opinion on it, don't bother commenting or ignore it' mentality, that's mostly just me.

Making posts with the express purpose of not fostering a discussion because we should create a safe space for people who request things widely considered, at best, strange, seems backwards to me.

Reddit is, at it's core, a public opinion forum. While I'd prefer civil conversations about all things, refusing a discussion is, at it's core, censorship.

[–]emestlia 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

So if I want to request something that is widely considered, at best, strange, because of the nature of what I like -- I have to subject myself to reading about other people telling me it's strange and wondering why I like strange things?

Also, discussion of a recommended fic is quite different to discussion of OP's tastes, and I would hope that the rule change would ban more of the latter instead of former.

[–]TE7 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I mean, yes. Why shouldn't you? It's not like this is a private community. It's a public forum on the internet.

You are literally advocating for censorship because you feel bad when people express disdain for something 'widely considered, at best, strange' because it makes you feel bad. That is philosophically, the wrong way to go as a moderator.

And separating things between 'discussion' and 'request' is, logistically, the wrong way to go as a moderator.

[–]emestlia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, I shouldn't have to subject myself to your judgment, and ordinarily I would try my best not to care, but the fact is that some of these discussions derail the thread. And maybe you haven't been a mod or something, but it's literally the job of a moderator to lock / close threads that are getting derailed. Sure, we are arguing about when it gets derailed or not.

And of course I feel bad when someone else expresses disdain for another person's personal likes. It's like you've got nothing better to do than to go around judging people for what they like. You know who does that? Haters. If the rule doesn't get enacted because haters gon' hate, fine. But I hope you know that if I am advocating for censorship, you're just advocating for hating on other people's tastes.

I don't know your tastes, but you're being unfair when you say that the requests are "widely considered, at best, strange". Dumbledore bashing is the one that I've gotten heat for. Yes, I like to read fics where Dumbledore's is portrayed as a meddler instead of a helper (though not where he's evil). This subreddit hates that. A couple months ago there were 3 threads on the front page on that subject and one of them was a fic request thread. The discussion on how bad these fics are were upvoted, and the recs were all at the bottom.

To piggy back on an analogy by another redditor here -- it's like if I posted a request asking for suggestions for a good burger joint in town for date night, and someone else comes into my thread telling me that eating meat is bad and I should feel bad. And I'm telling them to get out of my thread if you don't have any recommendations, except now, they've got people on their back and are continuing a discussion on my request post about how I like bad food and must like killing animals or something. This kind of thing shouldn't be encouraged, especially not in a subreddit for fanfiction --- fanfiction meaning all kinds of fan-written fiction, not just the ones you personally like.

[–]TE7 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Any time you are advocating for the silencing of other people's opinions you are in the wrong.

Any time you make your opinion or tastes public you need to accept that other people may not share your opinion, and are allowed to make their opinion public as well. Again, this is a public forum. No one is immune from criticism because it might hurt their feelings. I've had reviewers spout vile things to me on multiple occasions. They have a right to do so because I have made my work public.

As for strange requests, this post came about because of a blatant request for pedophilia. In the last few weeks there have been multiple requests for what amounts to love-potion induced rape and pedophilia.

Yes, these are things I would rather not see. However I have argued in other posts on this thread that they have the right to make such requests. But in doing so they are opening themselves up to criticism about those requests. That is the nature of a public internet forum.

"But I hope you know that if I am advocating for censorship, you're just advocating for hating on other people's tastes."

No. I'm advocating that opinions are allowed. Silencing an opinion because someone else finds it distasteful or dislikes the manner in which it was expressed because it hurts their feelings is inherently wrong. I'm already on record as saying that I think a lot of it is a waste of time. But it is their time to waste.

You cannot legislate away bad behavior. History has shown that repeatedly. Open discussion is more likely to stop the behavior you dislike rather than banning it.

You also do not account for the Law of Unintended Consequences. I've seen multiple request threads where the requested topic didn't exist, and someone, after discussion in the request thread, went on to write that story. Most recently it was one related to Oliver Wood using performance enhancing drugs or magic (didn't read the fic, only half remember the request) to gain an edge to win the house cup. If you do not allow for discussion, that fic does not exist. You are saying you would rather have a front page of request threads with no response rather than discussion. Because if we can only post responses reccomedning fics, then threads like that Qudiditch one, would have remained empty.

Also, most request threads are inherently lazy. There have been successive days where identical request threads are made. Just wait until the top four 'request threads' are 'give me your best Harry/Daphne!'

"And maybe you haven't been a mod or something, but it's literally the job of a moderator to lock / close threads that are getting derailed. Sure, we are arguing about when it gets derailed or not."

Have been but that's irrelevant. The Mods exist to enforce the rules on the sidebar of the sub. The rules do not state 'do not share an opinion in request threads. But either way you didn't seem quite as adamant about the moderates rules when, in your post history, you request a copy of a fic that has been removed by the author, which technically could be violating rule 6 of the subreddit.

Again. You cannot legislate away bad behavior. There's already an in place reddit system to enforce this. You're up in arms that discussions of how bashing is inherently bad writing is more upvoted than fics requesting bashing. You're on a subreddit that is interested in good writing and interesting stories. There's been countless discussions of why bashing is bad writing and makes for a bad story so I'm not going to waste words with it here.

Your analogy is more akin to if you went on a vegetarian forum and asked for a burger joint reference. While you can probably get a reference for a burger joint from a vegetarian, you shoudn't be surprised when the public sentiment of that forum is anti meat. The same holds true with this subreddit. While you can request smut, rapefics, pedophilia, and sound bonds here, and while you can get recommendations for all of those, it shouldn't surprise you when people interested in higher quality writing and plot point out why these things often make for bad stories. And frankly, it's a good thing that these discussions happen.

"This kind of thing shouldn't be encouraged, especially not in a subreddit for fanfiction --- fanfiction meaning all kinds of fan-written fiction, not just the ones you personally like."

Then why are you doing it? I've said multiple times people can request what they want, they can have their own opinions, they can read whatever they want. You are the one trying to silence opinions you do not personally like because they make you feel bad.

[–]emestlia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As for strange requests, this post came about because of a blatant request for pedophilia. In the last few weeks there have been multiple requests for what amounts to love-potion induced rape and pedophilia.

The two rule proposals look related, but they are not. I could be wrong here, but I don't believe that's the case since it's possible to enact a rule to remove disturbing content while also enacting a rule that limits request threads for recs + constructive discussion only. If they were related to the same issue ("strange requests"), then I don't see why 2 different rules would be proposed.

The 2nd rule proposal came about as a result of me bringing it to the attention of the mods months ago (and probably others as well) for things that are not rapefics or pedophilia. Dumbledore bashing is one, but I've also sent them ones where I wasn't involved in (a recent fic requesting Grey Harry and someone talking shit about how people who think in terms of dark, grey and light magic shouldn't be writing fic). The 1st rule proposal came about due to the recent posts like you said.

The Mods exist to enforce the rules on the sidebar of the sub. The rules do not state 'do not share an opinion in request threads'.

That's why this post is a rule proposal. Are you following?

Plus, the proposed rule is not "don't share an opinion in a request thread", because opinions/discussion on recommended fics for the request is completely fine. What the rule proposal is covering is to stop people from going into someone else's request thread and talking about OP's tastes. It isn't censorship if you can already do that in a discussion thread on the same subreddit.

You're on a subreddit that is interested in good writing and interesting stories.

Really? I thought I was on r/HPfanfiction, not r/onlygoodhpfanfictionwriting

While you can request smut, rapefics, pedophilia, and sound bonds here, and while you can get recommendations for all of those, it shouldn't surprise you when people interested in higher quality writing and plot point out why these things often make for bad stories. And frankly, it's a good thing that these discussions happen.

It doesn't surprise me. I know the opinion most people here have of my tastes. I just don't care to be judged for it in a subreddit that is supposedly for all types of HP fanfiction, and I KNOW I'm not the only one out there who enjoys what I request for.

Then why are you doing it? I've said multiple times people can request what they want, they can have their own opinions, they can read whatever they want.

I am not silencing anyone if the discussion can be taken elsewhere. Jeez, is this really that difficult to understand?

I notice how in this argument where you are losing you've resorted to personally combing through my history and pointing out a rule that I've broken. I didn't notice that rule to begin with, that's my bad and whatever the mods want to enforce, sure. But it's quite petty of you and frankly, I don't think I'll be able to convince your mind and don't want to continue engaging with someone so petty so I'm going to stop here.

[–]StarDolph 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

On the first rule: I'm new to this subreddit, but this is always been a subject that fascinates me, so here is a brain dump.

I'm generally against blanket bans for the same reason I am against laws that attempt to ban such content: You tend to draw in issues in the grey area which do warrant discussion. It becomes a question of which would you rather: Do you want to avoid certain content so much you are willing to sweep up content that would otherwise be ok, or do you find the content that would otherwise be ok to be important enough to tolerate content you would otherwise wish to ban?

(I'll admit to being a rather free-speech absolutist in this issue ;) )

Regardless, there are quite a few ambiguities in how it is currently proposed.

Is this only about content actually on the reddit or linked content as well? If it is linked content, it would be the only rule on linked content correct? At least how I read the rules something like 'no hateful speech' is read so that say, a discussion on the stereotypes used in fics/cannon would be appropriate, but you have to maintain a certain caution when discussing those topics. I think a similar rule would be completely appropriate for sexual content (honestly, with or without the minors) (on a side note, if this is about linked content, why doesn't rule 6 cover this already?

This is already a contentious and unclear issue in a world without magic: Legal age differ significantly, most places have Romeo/Juliette laws (if couple is within x age of each other it isn't statutory rape), as well as double-standard laws (Older Male -> Younger Female is looked down upon but Older Female -> Younger Male is not. A holdover from a more medieval time I suppose. This is complicated because a lot of fics place HP in a world that has an outdated standards. It is actually interesting to discuss Harry having to deal with a magical world that still finds betrothals acceptable, might allow marriages as early as say 14, or other standards that the modern world has moved away from.

Sci-fi/Fantasy fiction blurrs lines in ways that are not even applicable to the real world. This is certainly applicable to HP fanfiction, which uses magic to do all sorts of things that might be considered.. problematic if they ever came true. Just look at love potions. If someone actually made a potion like that it would be called a date-rape drug and (hopefully) quickly banned.

Let me put it another way: Here are some issues I could see getting caught up in such a rule that I think would have merit in at least exploring:

  • Adults go back in time or deage, stuck in child's body. Having to deal with the fact their bodies are immature.

  • Creepier, is if you have a single adult go back. Having them go through puberty, particularly if they are around people who are actually kids. Yea, I know, creepy, but an interesting outcropping of having 'de-aging' magic

  • Still on de-aging magic, what about someone who gets stuck permanently in the body of a child. Not exactly a new topic, there are a few works (outside of HP) that explore it. Most take a cautious tact with the subject, because of this very issue.

  • On the notion of soul - bonds (or really soulmates in general), there is a lot of creepy stuff here due to the fact it is forced upon the participants. It is hard to imagine how our world would cope with such a thing, since we have nothing like it.

It is an interesting problem. I note that it isn't one that is readily solved outside of fanfiction. Most of the rules around this pertain to the visual medium, and they are generally not consistent. Two adults in children bodies having sex would be repulsed (banned or shunned), while a kid being forced into an adult body and having sex isn't (see: Big)

A note on the legal side: Obviously one should consult a lawyer related to anything legal, but my understanding is that in the US content must already be obscene (in the case of writing, really graphic sex) for it to be illegal, and in that case child porn modifiers can be added. However, most virtual child porn (content where minors were not involved in the production) bans have been struck down, congress passed another (clearly unconstitutional, IMO) one, that has yet to be struck down.

And that is only US, other countries (without the first amendment) certainly do ban such content. Pretty sure Canada is quite harsh about it.

Anyway, I come back to: How does rule 6 not cover this case? If it was graphic enough and contains underage characters, don't all of our linked archives ban such content? And if it wasn't graphic enough, is it still something we don't want to talk about?

(I'm all for requiring such discussion to be behind proper NSFW or Content warning tags though)

[–]StarDolph 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I see that we are dropping this one, but I want to toss on a hypothetical that I hope illustrates my point (the one about the value of content that pushes lines being worth tolerating content that crosses it).

Imagine a hypothetical author Bob. Bob hates soulfic. He finds them cheesey and creepy. As a response, he chooses to write a parody: Harry/Dumbledore Soulfic. He intends to poke fun at the dearth of soul-fics out there and point out how horrifying such a bond would actually be.

Bob puts a sex scene in his fic. Nothing explicit, he knows he is treading on hallowed ground. However, most soul bond fics tend to make sex a requirement of finishing the bond (often times with the participants drawn unwillingly into it). Since most soul bond fics are used to put two people together who wouldn't normally be together, he can't say they are in love beforehand. .

Even if Bob handles such content in a taste-ful and non-explicit way, in order for him to accomplish his goal of parodying soul bond fics there wouldn't be ambiguity that sex happened (lots of fics avoid sexual content by merely implying it, you can't say it happened), and discussion on it afterwards (since it isn't a parody if you don't make fun of it).

Would such a fic be worthy of discussion on this subreddit?

Would it matter if the fic was a well-written parody? Fanfic writers are not always the best, if Bob was intending it to be a parody but is a bad writer and it doesn't come off as such, does that matter?

What if the subject was originally intended to be a parody but after he started writing bob realized he had a story here and fleshed it out into a full drama. This certainly happens to fanfiction all the time,

(I'm assuming a lot of the answer comes down too "Well we only want to block graphic sexual content containing minors." I do understand what @denarii is going for. I really really do. I even agree that it is content I really don't want to see. Unfortunately putting such into viable, non-overreaching rules is actually damn hard. Often this come down to 'I know it when I see it', which is unfortunately subjective and hard to standardize on.)

[–]gotkate86Mod of r/HPSlashFic 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I definitely support rule 2. Part of why we felt the need to have a dedicated slash sub was because of the rude comments people would leave on many slash request threads.

We get that lots of people don't like slash, but if I'm looking for a Drarry fic, I don't want a response like "why would anyone read that disgusting pairing?" It just devolves into a dumb argument that isn't changing anyone's mind.

Other subs enforce this - like r/askreddit has a serious tag where it'll not approve anything besides serious replies.

[–]LunaLovepoor 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Both sound good. But for the first one, where do you draw the line? What age is an adult and a minor for this (which country)? If it's 16, is a 16 year old and 15 year old okay. Is two 15 year old minors smut okay? If it's only mentioned once in the story and definitely not the focus? 0 sexual content, or is a brief mention without any explicits okay?

Or is just a broad rule so that people are warned that their post can be deleted if enough people complain that it's inappropriate.

[–]denariiHeadmaster[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's intended to catch really problematic stuff like the one I described in the OP. I don't care if all involved parties are minors of a reasonably appropriate age, i.e. mid to late teens, or are very close in age despite one being just over the age of majority. As you say, it's hard to define precise but not overly strict rules.

[–]emestlia 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

As someone who has complained about the second, you know my thoughts on this but I'll reiterate what I've said:

There are discussion threads and there are fic request threads, and I really don't like it if I'm looking for something to read and then someone comes in and tells me that I like bad fic etc. That's personal, but it's also quite distasteful to join in on a thread from someone who has similar tastes of your own, and also seeing comments on that. Sure, I can try to ignore and not engage in the discussion, but seriously, why have a difference between discussion and request threads at all if this is going to be allowed?

Discussion threads exist for a reason. You can start your own discussion about how bad a certain trope is and like minded people (and the occasional brave soul) can go talk about it. I don't want to have to defend myself in my request fic thread, or defend the fics that I like. I don't want to be belittled and called stupid or whatnot, even if it's very thinly veiled -- it's pretty obvious what's a recommendation and what's not.

I understand it's possible to want to discuss if a recommended fic may not fit the request, and so long as one's respectful about it, that's unavoidable. But I feel that the top level comments in a request thread should really only be recs as requested, or requesting clarification on the OP's specifications.

And for the first rule ... ...As someone who also recently requested for Sirius/Hermione and Remus/Hermione fics (with no time travel), I understand why I didn't get a lot of response now ... hah. I should have specified an of-age Hermione (with older men), and even that is squicky to some but at least still legal... anyway, I agree to this rule as well, it's fair to draw the line, in RL it isn't legal after all? So I feel it's okay to set that rule to be on the safe side.

PS: thanks again for bringing this to the attention of the community.

[–]capitolsara 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well I think that even in a discussion thread people shouldn't go around saying things like "your taste in fiction is awful" because that's a personal attack. I think the rule needs to be across the board no personal attacks in any thread for any reason, especially for what kind of fics they like/request.

[–]emestlia 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not as obvious. Mods are pretty good about the personal attacks, because it already exists as a rule and can be reported. It's the thinly veiled ones, that I've been at the end of personally.

The "discussion" I'm talking about goes something like this:

OP: "I'm in the mood for this kind of fic please"

someone: "I'm curious as to why people would actively go looking for this type of fic as is mostly poor characterization"

someone else: "It's not just poor characterization, it's lazy writing/ poor understanding of canon, and etc"

It adds nothing to the request. Why even have the distinction between discussion and request threads if you're going to allow one to derail another? None of the example I've given is a personal attack directly, but by taking the time to post that kind of comment like "hmmm I wonder why people read poorly characterized fics" are you actually wondering? or making it a point to tell me that I like bad writing/ bad characterization?

If you're legitimately wondering, then what's wrong with starting a separate discussion post? If you're making it a point to tell me that I like bad writing, in a non-personal attack way, then that comment just sits there distastefully and if I try to report that it just looks silly to the mods probably since it wasn't insulting.

I could also respond with "Yes, the characterization could be poor in some fics but I still enjoy them" but why should I have to defend what I like to people who don't like it in a thread that I started?

[–]capitolsara 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ahhh okay that makes sense to me, thanks for explaining it. I guess I would still take that comment as a personal attack but I can see how it is someone just trying to derail fic reqs

[–]Taure 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I feel like this is ultimately a rather semantic argument - "it's called a request thread not a discussion therefore you can't have discussions". It misses the rather more fundamental point - does discussion on a particular matter related to a request enhance this discussion forum for HP, and does artificially inhibiting discussion for the sake of categorisation enrich the life of the forum?

It seems to me thst all this rule would do is reduce the number of interesting discussions happening on the sub. Telling people to make a duplicate discussion thread for every request thread feels impractical and excessive regulation. Forums often live or die on ease of discussion. Heavy regulation tends to just kill off activity.

So long as the general rules on politeness are enforced I just don't see any harm in discussions occurring in request threads.

[–]emestlia 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Does discussion on a particular matter related to a request enhance this discussion forum for HP?

Yes, so long that the discussion is about recommended fics (in response to an OP's request thread), not OP's tastes. I'm not asking to ban all discussion.

Interesting discussions happening on the sub

I'm sure I could definitely be called one of the special snowflakes you've alluded to in another comment somewhere, but some of these "interesting discussions" you're talking about is certainly subjective.

I certainly don't find it interesting to read about why people don't like the type of fic I like -- it's not going to change my mind. It's only going to make me feel bad about what I like. Furthermore, if that discussion is going to happen anyway because what I like is unpopular, there's a place for that to happen and it would be in a discussion thread.

Either way it boils down to: a) preferring that people can say whatever they want on whatever thread , thus "not killing off activity by heavy regulation" --- which would lead to people like me not feeling like this community is a welcoming place at all if I want to post a fic request thread --- which would lead to less participation/ activity anyway

or

b) a new rule to make everyone play nicer. If opening up a discussion thread based on a fic request thread you browsed through for fics/tropes you don't even like, is too much hassle then surely it must not be very worth it at all to even post it in the first place.

[–]Englishhedgehog13 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As someone who has lost all ability to feel shame and will read the creepiest of fics, the first rule feels like censorship to me. I don't care what people request and I wish other people didn't care either. Second rule sounds good though.

[–]Taure 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (21子コメント)

  1. As much as I would love to see Snape/Hermione fics caught by such a ban it seems like too much of a sacrifice to "offence culture". Such fics hurt absolutely no one and no one is under an obligation to read them. As such, the suggested ban serves no purpose other than moral masturbation for those who get off on their own righteousness and disapproval of others.

  2. I feel like if you're going to enforce stricter standards on request threads it has to go both ways. A ban on criticising the request is all well and good so long as the mods enforce basic standards on requests themselves. No more "I'm looking for good fics" or "I'm looking for long fics" requests allowed.

[–]denariiHeadmaster[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (20子コメント)

I feel like if you're going to enforce stricter standards on request threads it has to go both ways. A ban on criticising the request is all well and good so long as the mods enforce basic standards on requests themselves. No more "I'm looking for good fics" or "I'm looking for long fics" requests allowed.

I don't think this is self-evident. The former is about enforcing basic civility. And yeah, "good fics" is hopelessly vague and subjective, but "long fics" isn't.

[–]Taure 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (19子コメント)

It's perfectly possible to have a civil disagreement. Indeed civil disagreements are the bread and butter of good discussion. The suggested rule goes well beyond enforcing civility - it's giving the OP special snowflake status where they have a right not to encounter viewpoints different to their own, no matter how politely they are expressed.

Also "long fics" may not be subjective but it's still hopelessly broad. There are hundreds if not thousands of qualifilying fics.

[–]denariiHeadmaster[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (15子コメント)

The point is that the purpose of request threads is to solicit recommendations, not to argue with people who don't like whatever it is you're requesting. We have discussion threads if you want to try to convince people that they're wrong.

[–]Taure 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (14子コメント)

It seems to me that the virtues of neat categorisation is a poor justification for shutting down some of the richest and most interesting discussions in the sub. It's not like such discussions inhibit recommendations, so you're not gaining anything on the recommendation side by shutting the discussions down. It's a significant destruction of the forum's utility in the name of semantic correctness.

[–]emestlia 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right, because a request thread containing a discussion where the OP is having to defend personal tastes, where someone could possibly have a recommendation they could give, would be so inviting for said person to join in (assuming, of course, they also wanted to defend themselves for liking that sort of thing).

The discussions may get a bit heated, and may not even be insulting or rude, but it's just tiring and distasteful to have to engage in that kind of defense.

OK, well, I don't have to engage (after all, if I don't want to deal with it I can just not reply, right?), and I do my best to ignore it -- it's still my thread. You know. The request for recommendation thread that isn't an opinion up for debate. Yeah. The one slowly going out of focus because of the discussion about poorly written fics I apparently like --- yeah that one. Who's likely to chime in more, someone with a rec? Or someone who agrees with "yes it's bad fic!"?

Such discussions do inhibit recommendations. It inhibits joining this sub even.

[–]denariiHeadmaster[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (12子コメント)

It's not like such discussions inhibit recommendations, so you're not gaining anything on the recommendation side by shutting the discussions down.

As I said in the OP, we have had complaints that attacks and unconstructive criticism when people try to make requests discourage them from wanting to be part of this community. You'll notice I left the door open to constructive discussion. When someone requests X and another person replies that X is stupid, that is not civil or an interesting discussion.

[–]Taure 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

How often does this actually happen though? It's already covered by existing rules on insults/civility. There's no need for an extra rule if that's all you want to ban.

It seems to me, viewing the sub, that most request threads where people discuss the merits of the request go much deeper than "that's stupid". They are genuine discussions of the trope and its pros and cons.

As much as I dislike Hermione/Snape etc, I will vigorously defend people's right to post it. Complimentary to that, I will equally vigorously defend the right to call it bad in a civil manner. It seems to me that such a situation is more open, vital, honest and diverse than banning large swathes of fics and also banning calling anything bad.

Such a situation would basically amount to creating an authority that mandates acceptable fanfic. So long as a fic is deemed within the bounds of acceptable by that authority, you cannot criticise it. That does not sound like a healthy community.

[–]padfootprohibitedMod of /r/HPSlashFic 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like there's a rather vast difference between criticising an individual fic (perfectly acceptable) and criticising someone's taste as a whole (nope nope nope). You may regard a trope or a pairing as bad, but that doesn't make it objectively bad, since there's no way to objectively judge such a thing, and it doesn't mean that people don't have the right to enjoy it.

tl;dr Wheaton's Law.

[–]gotkate86Mod of r/HPSlashFic 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

How often does this actually happen though?

From the past week -

OP asks for a fic they read before where Harry wakes up in bed with Draco.. One commenter suggested it was turn, their favorite fic and then a commenter wrote “False, main characters aren't gay, thus, this is not your favorite fic.

OP asks for a female fred and george fic and first comment was “LOL”

OP asks for fics that are so disturbing you would wonder why the author isn’t on a watch list.. A few commenters has comments and not recs, but the only really unnecessary comment is “ANYTHING voldemort x harry or snape x students VOM you need to go get therapy” and then a few other commenters agreeing.

OP asked for Harry/Andromeda pairings and the top comment is a joke about Harry’s dick not being big enough to fuck a galaxy. (To be fair, this and the comments were pretty funny but not meeting OP’s request at all.

OP asked for good fics that came out in the past two years and one commenter wrote "No good fics these past couple years. The SJW movements have caused a slew of keyboard warriors to push out "women empowerment" Hermione-centric fics, where she is essentially a mary-sue that makes ignorant changes in the wizarding world, and suddenly it becomes a utopia that defeats the entire purpose of the books.”

OP asked for Harry/Merope and one commenter wrote “Isn't Merope older than Harry's Mother?” and the thread devolved into a discussion about time travel pairings and if they are still gross.

[–]Slindish 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In most of your examples the comments have been downvoted a lot. So it seems the community's self moderation has been working perfectly most of the time.

[–]Taure 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Most of these examples are examples of the OP's request being criticised in civil ways, not in an insulting manner.

[–]Starfox5 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not being civil, it's being rude. It's like starting a diatribe about healthy food whenever someone asks where that bakery famous for their chocolate bread is - or telling someone who asks for the closest bus station to walk, and exercise more.

[–]Amnistar 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yea, but they aren't recommendations? If I ask someone for the location of a good barbecue joint, I don't want to listen to a lecture on how vgoing vegan is the moral choice. I want recommendations on a place to eat smoked meat. Similarly if I ask for fanfic recs posting about how my personal likes are bad doesn't really help with my request?

[–]denariiHeadmaster[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I will equally vigorously defend the right to call it bad in a civil manner.

If you want to do that, make a discussion thread. It doesn't need to be rehashed every time someone makes a request for Hermione/Snape.

Regardless, people have been nearly unanimously in favor of this, so it's likely going to be enacted.

[–]Taure 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

A thread with 37 comments in a community of 10,889 readers hardly seems unanimous. Especially as the thread has a good mix of different comments and viewpoints and is all of 3 hours old.

Declaring unanimity in such circumstances kinda makes it look like you never had any real intention of listening to the community on the issue.

[–]denariiHeadmaster[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm going to give it more time, but that's a terrible argument. You know the majority of subscribers aren't active participants in any community, and of those only a small percentage of active members of the community will end up commenting in the thread. They can be taken as a representative sample, though.

Especially as the thread has a good mix of different comments and viewpoints.

On sexual content issue, yes. Of those who have commented on the request thread issue so far, you're the only one who opposes it.

[–]TyrialFrost 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sounds like you have already made up your mind on this, why even pretend to gather feedback?

[–]TE7 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with this.

If someone is posting a request on a public internet forum, past whatever direct violation of the forum rules the responses are, there isn't any reason that people shouldn't be able to comment on it.

Discouraging them from doing so in a civil manner is wrong. And expecting people to create discussion threads instead of commenting on it seems backward and logistically annoying.

A public forum is not a 'safe space'. Many of these requests are asking for people to find them a specific fetish that is oftentimes not only distasteful but illegal. Granting them immunity because they feel bad when people point that out, is the wrong way to go about it.

[–]__Pers 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree with /u/Taure and wish to further state that it's preposterous to declare a consensus on a rule proposal after only a day. Some of us work for a living and don't visit the sub twenty times a day.

I'm not in favor of the second proposal as it seems more an excuse for God-Modding and heavy-handed speech stifling than an attempt to solve a real problem. Frankly, if someone comes into a public forum and requests perverse, oftentimes illegal material in a public forum, they shouldn't be coddled. They should live with their choices like the self-styled adults they are.

And as a practical matter, where do you draw the line? One can easily editorialize a recommendation post to skirt the rules. (A quick perusal of the extant request threads shows multiple instances of this.) And are the Mods really going to go remove comments on posted stories that might be perceived as mildly critical? Because if they are, then this basically defenestrates all hope of meaningful discussion in these threads. And if they aren't, then you open up the following dynamic:

Request: Snape/Ginny - preferably with an underage Ginny + non-con.

Reply: [Link to whatever, maybe Ginny's Punishment by Slytherinjunkie20]

Reply to reply: Yet another example of the wish-fulfillment rape-fantasy rubbish that seems to inhabit this fetid corner of the fandom. Yes, Alan Rickman was an inspired casting choice, I get it, but it's left us with a ton of fics that we have to nope the heck out of lest we never digest again.

Which means the rule solves nothing.

Why not instead make a rule that nothing but links can be posted in request threads? That way no commentary can be provided, whether positive or negative? And while you're at it, why not make an option for subscribers to opt out of ever seeing any more request threads on their feeds? I know could do without in this vapid world of non-thought.

edit: some rewording.

[–]TE7 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The request threads are the lowest of the low of threads here anyway. Calling it a 'vapid world of non-thought' is probably being too generous to the average request thread.

Frankly, if someone comes into a public forum and requests perverse, oftentimes illegal material in a public forum, they shouldn't be coddled. They should live with their choices like the self-styled adults they are.

A lot of people seem to not realize just how true this is. The beauty of a forum like this is that you can have open discussions. Yet a few users see to be from the 'if you don't agree with me you must be wrong' or 'dissenting opinion must be silenced' which is inherently wrong.

[–]Spritzer2000 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"I don't agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" - Evelyn Beatrice Hall.

Personally, I hate the weird incest fics and the pedo scene that is somewhat prevalent in this fandom, but censorship is wrong. As long as nobody is directly harmed by these fics, there is absolutely no need to ban them or enforce age appropriate content. At heart, this is about fanfiction and sadly that encompasses everything, not just what the majority would like to see.

Source: live in a censored country, don't take away the internets freedom too.

[–]iambeeblack 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think it would be right to ban anything, to be honest. Do I want to read a fic where Harry and Luna groom a child? Not really, no. Do other may people may want to read it? Sure. Is it hurting anyone? Absolutely not.

So why would we ban such requests? Sure, it may be that some of us will feel disgusted by the request, or think it's morally wrong to read it, let alone write it, but at the end of the day it isn't doing us any harm. We just don't click on the thread/search for the fic in question, yada dada.

I've been a part of this community for a long time as a lurker and less than a year as a subscriber, but one thing I've always admired was that there was little judgement in peculiar request threads. Sometimes the OP will say something like "please don't hate me for asking this" and people here will still find the fic for them. More than once I've seen the OP thanking people for not finding them weird, for example. I don't think it would be right to take away that sense of security, of belonging.

[–]Amnistar 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I've watched a number of request threads go with few, or no, response fics but have several comments that basically are about how the type if fic is dumb, or wondering why anyone would want to read that type of fanfiction.

I don't think it's limiting discussion to say that responses to "anyone know where I can read about X?" should be limited to suggestions about stories. I know every time I think about posting a request thread I think twice about whether this request will be mocked by the replies.

[–]emestlia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. And apparently, wanting this not to happen is requesting "special snowflake" status.

[–]StarDolph 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Second rule: what works good for the explain it subreddit is all top level posts must contain a answer. Would that be good here? Top level posts must contain fic recommendations or discussion on the request (too broad / to narrow that sort of thing)

The first one deserves its own post so :p

[–]better_be_ravenclaw 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with the second one. If someone is requesting for a recommendations, there is no need to insult OP for his tastes. Either recommend something or just move on.

The first one is way too vague to be enforced and it would cover a lot of popular pairings - Harry/Tonks, Harry/Voldemort, Hermione/Snape.

[–]gotkate86Mod of r/HPSlashFic 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

A few commenters seem to think the second issue isn't a problem. Here are a list of times from the last week (not exhaustive, but threads I could recall it from) where a commenter ridiculed or responded something totally non-constructive to OP's request.

OP asks for a fic they read before where Harry wakes up in bed with Draco.. One commenter suggested it was TURN, their favorite fic, and then a commenter wrote “False, main characters aren't gay, thus, this is not your favorite fic.

OP asks for a female fred and george fic and first comment was “LOL”

OP asks for fics that are so disturbing you would wonder why the author isn’t on a watch list.. A few commenters had comments and not recs, but the only really unnecessary comment was “ANYTHING voldemort x harry or snape x students VOM you need to go get therapy” and then a few other commenters agreeing.

OP asked for Harry/Andromeda pairings and the top comment is a joke about Harry’s dick not being big enough to fuck a galaxy. (To be fair, this and the comments were pretty funny but not meeting OP’s request at all.)

OP asked for good fics that came out in the past two years and one commenter wrote "No good fics these past couple years. The SJW movements have caused a slew of keyboard warriors to push out "women empowerment" Hermione-centric fics, where she is essentially a mary-sue that makes ignorant changes in the wizarding world, and suddenly it becomes a utopia that defeats the entire purpose of the books.”

OP asked for Harry/Merope and one commenter wrote “Isn't Merope older than Harry's Mother?” and the thread devolved into a discussion about time travel pairings and if they are still gross.

[–]wordhammerbecause Tonks is my muse 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

See, I see these things as exactly the sort of threads to encourage. We aren't here just to provide a fiction-finding service, but to explore the depth and breadth of what fanfiction has to offer to fans of the Potterverse. In most of these cases the negative comments were either enjoyed as the humor was intended, ignored, or downvoted to the 5th circle of Hades as appropriate. By that assessment, the controls we have in place already are functioning just fine.

[–]emestlia 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Depending on the content (and the poster), the negative comments are usually upvoted and drowns out just about everything else aside from what the requester would like, in a request fic thread. Discussions are still encouraged... in a discussion thread.

Also does any of the above actually "explore the depth and breadth of what fanfiction has to offer"? Can they even be considered deep?

[–]denariiHeadmaster[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

then a commenter wrote “False, main characters aren't gay, thus, this is not your favorite fic.

Somehow I knew this was going to be SuperAlexIY before I checked.

[–]gotkate86Mod of r/HPSlashFic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol yeah...

[–]emestlia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think we need to go the name and shame route, but yes, to the people who think that it doesn't happen all that often -- it does.

[–]KrakorsStill reading first year textbooks 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Comments in request threads would be limited to recommendations or constructive discussion.

I'm happy with how you've worded this, but I'd suggest 'constructive discussion' should be a fairly broad label. If I request Harmony, people should be able to, say, point out why good Harmony fics are surprisingly rare, without falling afoul of the rule.

EDIT: Changed my mind upon reading your discussion with /u/Taure. I'm not in favour of limiting discussion, as it seems this will do. Rules 2 and 3 already forbid insults and 'inciting arguments' and could simply be expanded to forbid low investment content, if that's really an issue.

~

On the topic of new rules, could I suggest making flaired posts mandatory? Most people flair up now, which makes browsing and searching the sub a lot smoother, to the point where I find myself mentally 'tripping over' flair-less posts (which tend to be pretty crap anyway).

[–]beetnemesis 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The sub is pretty great right now, I'd advise against messing around with that.

[–]jeffala 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The second would enact stricter moderation in request threads. We've had complaints about people going to into request threads just to ... dismiss whatever it is they're looking for as stupid.

If someone replied to a thread that they recommend "Joe likes butter", is it okay to reply to that recommendation with, "I X'd out before the end of the first chapter"?

[–]denariiHeadmaster[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't see a problem with giving a second opinion on recommendations as long as it's done in a civil way.

[–]stefvhMod of /r/HarryandGinny[🍰] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We have to realize that this is one of the only functioning and successful fanfic sites. Censorship is both practically and morally wrong. It will create a culture where people will be afraid to post something because it will violate some arbitrary standards.

[–]th3irin 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm all for the second rule mentioned. I'm tired of someone requesting a pairing or mentioning a pairing and then having someone come in with absolutely nothing better to say than that the pairing is shit. (Even worse is when that rude comment is upvoted to the top of the discussion!)

It's rude, for starters, and ultimately just mean. It might not be their cup of tea, but that does not give them right to go in and act as their preferred pairing is somehow superior. As juvenile as it sounds, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all.

[–]viol8erAren't these fornications lovely? 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd like to see a static request thread since i see request, request, request, discussion, request, request, request, request, request, meta, request, request, request.

A weekly one would probably be best for this idea.

[–]UndeadBBQ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not sure about both issues.

If the first would target things like "The Real Us", I'd be all for it. I think just blatant pedophilia is a safe ban.

The second issue is also rather simple to solve. If the discussion started in a civil manner, where is the issue? There is no harm done in asking someone why he likes something or what some particular trope does for him. When people call OP stupid, or insult him outright, they wouldn't be welcome in any thread anyway. Though, I do admit that i'm rather annoyed when I made an request and the next time I see that little mail-symbol being red it only turns out that someone wants to talk about the trope/pairing/... in the request.

[–]Missing_MinusDelirium 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

For the second someone could make a bot ( I haven't made a reddit bot before, and I don't have a way to keep it continuously online, so not me ) that checks if a thread's comments (and maybe upvotes) is greater than X, and it is a fic request thread. If it is a fic request thread, and it meets the requirement of being greater than X than the bot will create a new discussion thread about that request. It will then post a link inside the fic request for users to go to.
Also possibly have a way to manually request creation of it.

[–]LocalMadman 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good to see you dropping the first point. I'm not a fan of censorship. The second rule seems fine.

[–]blazinghand 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am ok with both these proposals.

[–]Servalpur 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The first rule has already been shut down (for good in my opinion, are we going to start removing H/T fics?), but I wonder about the second rule.

While I've never insulted someone for asking for a certain type of fic, I've been guilty of seeing a recommendation, and say that I think the fic recced is shit. I always try and say why it's shit, but I haven't hesitated to call a spade a spade either.

I wonder if that type of comment would be disallowed under the rule. There are people in this sub who (in my opinion) are far too quick to take offense when they believe their opinion has been insulted. In a sub dedicated to fanfiction, generally we look to push up high quality work, and avoid the shit at the bottom of the barrel. I think it would be counterproductive to make a judgement call about a fics quality against the rules. This is doubly true in request threads, where people are almost always asking for things worth reading.

[–]denariiHeadmaster[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As I said in response to another comment, I don't think there's a problem with giving a second opinion on a recommendation as long as it's civil. This is about people attacking the OP or the thing being requested.

[–]nottheteamate 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stricter moderation is great. There's a lot of trolls here, and it's not hard to ignore stupid threads (see whatshisname, GryffTom) and move on.

I'm actually really disappointed that the mods didn't stand up for the first proposal. This subreddit being used to pander pedophilia, and even worse, underage rape, is disgusting. There should be a strict rule to not post any kind of sexual material featuring minors. HPFanfiction is a hive of scum and degeneracy in comparison to other Fanfiction boards, like Spacebattles and Sufficient Velocity. There any kind of sexuality with minors is harshly beaten down, as it should be.

There are other sites for spreading this kind of filth, I think the majority of people here come for quality fanfiction. NSFW stories should only be asked for, and linked to, in NSFW marked threads, and underage stories should be blacklisted from ffnbot, and kept up to date with community moderation.

It is, in fact, illegal, in many countries to keep and consume pornographic material about minors. Yes, that includes the written word. Only "cultural historical" stories are accepted, like Nabokov. Filthy masturbation papers about 11 year olds is not.

[–]kerrryn“Twitchy little ferret, aren't you, Malfoy?” -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think both of these sound good.

[–][deleted] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

As has already been mentioned ad nauseam, the first one becomes difficult to enforce, in no small part because the vast majority of the characters are minors for much of the original storyline.

As to the second one, I feel that it is already covered in rules 2 and 3 of this subreddit. The enforcement of said rules and their particulars has always been subject to the moderator discretion; as such, it would be simpler merely to enforce the existing rules more strictly. Creating such a wide set of rules for comments in request threads is likely to result in some sort of fight wherein one side misuses the rules against the other.

Should further complaints arise, I highly recommend the DLP forums to the complainers, where they will no doubt be treated with a more appropriate level of respect and kindness.

[–]Starfox5 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's not a "wide set of rules". "Don't criticise a poster's taste in their request thread" is simple and easy to understand and enforce.

[–][deleted] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

We have two cases, then:

1., wherein the poster is belittled and bullies for their taste in fics, which is already covered by interpretation of the existing rules;

2., wherein the specific genre that the poster requests is critiqued , whether it be for common tropes, et al., but no actual criticism of the OP exists.

Someone will almost undoubtedly take the second one as a violation of the proposed rules (perhaps because they like it and do not want to hear any criticism about it whatsoever) though it is in no way a criticism of the OP. Because we already have existing rules on bullying, simply interpret it to prevent belittling of the OP's taste in fics.

[–]Starfox5 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

If someone asks for Soul bond fics, it doesn't matter if you post "only an idiot likes that" or if you post "Soul bond fics are stupid" - neither is an answer to the request, and both are rude.

Want to belittle Soul bond fics? Start a discussion thread of your own. Don't crap on a request thread in an attempt to make people stop reading those fics; that's bullying.

[–][deleted] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's a vast oversimplification of my statement. Merely stating that fics are stupid is hardly what I was implying. Rather, a discussion of the merits, tropes, and various problems might occur. Request threads can be superb for generating such discussion. Nonetheless, it is entirely possible that someone might take offense at critiques of the genre, and complain about it as a violation of the rules. Criticism can both imply that the genre is a pile of trope-ridden tripe, and be constructive. It's there that difficulties will occur, in distinguishing what crosses the line.

And if it's bullying, as you say it is, then it still can be enforced under current rules. No reason for new rules.

[–]Starfox5 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If people want to discuss a trope, they can easily start a discussion thread. You haven't given a single reason why request threads should be open for discussion of the request itself.

[–][deleted] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I sense a red herring here. You're veering away from my argument that the rules proposed would inevitably result in confusion and arguments about the implementation of the rules. I quote,

Comments in request threads would be limited to recommendations or constructive discussion.

By your own logic, you ought not be supporting this, since it does in fact support discussion in request threads. In fact, I rather agree with you in this regard - discussion thread ought to be kept completely separate from request threads, with only responses containing links or recommendations being allowed in. However, that's not what the proposed rule would accomplish, instead forcing a fine distinction between criticism and vitriol on the posters. And if that's the case, I see no reason not to stick to the old system. Now, if they only allowed recommendations, I'd support it.

[–]Judge_KnoxIckle Firstie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like the second suggestion, as request threads can get easily derailed from what I've seen (but I haven't been around here too long, so who knows).

The first one, though, is much trickier. Wouldn't there have to be a lot of wording on what constitutes sexual content, and if things like clearly implied (but not directly featured) sexual content would be omitted from such a rule?

I would personally just leave the whole issue be - as distasteful as some of the content that features adult/minor relations is, there are a portion of the readers here that seek out stories that might fit this overall group (for example, Hermione/Snape if the former is still under the age of sixteen - the legal age of consent in UK - or seventeen if we apply a "wizarding consent" rule).

The only way to really implement a rule like the first suggestion would surely require a lot of work and policing, and I can't see that it would be worth your effort to put together.

[–]yarglethatblargleAs the Earth with turtles, magic is symbols all the way down 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

First one is tricky for all the reasons others have said. Maybe make it a no explicit paedophilia rule? I don't know.

Full steam ahead on number two though.

[–]capitolsara -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Since public opinion fixes the first point I wont comment on whether we should have it, but what if we had a new flair specifically for it? Like NSFW MINOR or something? That way people could know not to click on the thread?

[–]EpsilonDenariusCU does not act in ff.net's best interests! -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Censoring requested stories is entering tricky territory, as a thread about censorship affirmed recently. The first one essentially is telling the authors of quite a few Harry/older person stories to screw off. I do not agree with censorship of any form, no matter whether the censored content is agreeable to me or not. There are always going to be fans to niche groups of fics, and we shouldn't demonize people who like niche stories we might not be agreeable to. Don't turn this sub into the SJW shitstorm that is many other subreddits. As compared to other subs, I think /r/HPfanfiction enjoys a very relaxed and friendly environment. It should stay that way.

I still reserve the right to remove blatant pedophilia.

To me this is a slightly watered down and reworded proposal #1. It's no different.

Full steam ahead with the second proposal, however. If people are going to criticize a request, then they should create a discussion thread about the pairing or situation requested in the request fic. That way the request thread is clean of unnecessary content. The discussion thread would provide a more relevant and more "within the rules" place to discuss the pairing/situation requested. Request threads should mostly contain content relevant to the request and the stories presented.