Invading Nazi-controlled Europe with Britain under Nazi rule

I was talking about this scenario with someone on a WWII Facebook page.

In the event that the Nazis conquered Britain and defeated the USSR before the end of 1941, if the Commonwealth (and the Americans if they decide to declare war on Germany in this scenario) decide to invade Europe, how would this be accomplished?

The person I was talking to suggested that the invasion could be similar to our present-day scenario, invading through Western Europe and Italy.

 

The Nazis could not have conquered Britain and defeated the USSR before the end of 1941.

However, if they somehow did, it would be essentially impossible to invade Europe across the Atlantic. Iceland is not as good a base as the entirety of Britain.

 

Okay you have the Nazis conquer Britain and destroy the USSR as bad as that would be you might me able to invade from North Africa. Invade from Turkey, invade from the Russian Far East and Siberia, invade from Central Asia across to Crimea and from there across Hungary.

It would be absolutely terrible in terms of casualties, you'd be talking about death toll well in excess of 500 million especially if the Nazis acquire British naval shipyards and and industrial resources.

 

summer 1943 earliest. Germany also had jets in the second world war, so if we had nukes it's questionable we could have gotten them through their air defenses.

 

How Nazis could conquer UK and USSR by end of 1941? This is pretty ASB.

 

I suspect it would be the same way as War Plan Red. First they make sure British colonies are in their possession, which means the US still takes North Africa. Although, I very much doubt that the British in this case wouldn't still be in possession of their colonies. They would have to use the Rainbow 5 plans as a guide and the associated mobilization plans to build a force worthy of the task, but I doubt anyone here would argue that Germany in this case could match the US in a military-economic sense. Germany was more of a middle power rather than superpower in that sense, but there are some that might dispute that. Losses would be much more severe. I doubt that they would take back the U.K. itself rather than if they just go straight for continental Europe. The obvious axes of attacks are Italy and France. The US would move into Iran and the Middle East in general. It is also important to know how much time that Germany has to prepare defenses (as they would be reduced to a defensive war), and especially if their is a Japan first policy change in this case.

 

Excuse me, what?

 

I don't think it's possible. The Commonwealth collapses and dissolves, and a Cold War between USA and Germany ensues.

 

The invasion would fail and the Nazis would win.

 

I'm saying invading a Nazi controlled continent along with European Russia and the U.K. would involve a casualty count around that number.

The US would have to invade Nazi UK from Ireland or if the Nazis conquer Ireland somehow martial an incredible fleet and attack the west Irish coast and invade Britain from the west and northwest.

You could also develop Arctic invasion plans as well. Going from Greenland to the Nordic countries, making bases on the Arctic islands and frozen sea.

While a Cold War between uber Nazi Germany and USA is certainly possible it's much less interesting then seeing how America would invade a that much stronger Nazi Germany.

Invade from North Africa and across the Pyrenees, invade from Italy and across the Bosporous into Greece, invade from Russia's pacific and across the Black Sea,

It would be a mammoth of a war, the Nazis would effectively exterminate just about every group they despise, and it would make Calbear AANW look tame in comparison.

I imagine after the end-say in 1970 the German population is totally subjugated or if the Us isn't feeling generous exterminanated, Britain probably joins the United States and other dominion countries develop ties with super America.

I can't see segregation and women's rights being held back very long here, the male population would be reduced in Europe and America/the dominions by up to sixty-seventy percent.

 

So you're saying that Europe would be turned into a lifeless continent with something like 10 people living in it?

The world had about 2.3 billion people in 1939, and WW2, even this huge, causing over 20% of it's population to die is absolutely unfeasible.

 

You do understand how absolutely brutal and long this war will be? Also that the Nazis will have exterminated just about everybody that isn't a card carrying member or collaborator by the time the Americans reach Berlin? Invading a Nazi uk even if the Nazis don't gain all the Royal Navy-even part of it will create a Gotterdamerung.

It will make most WW3 Thread Scenarios look tame.

I imagine you'll have resistance as well, anti-Nazi groups, communists and nationalists fighting for their very survival with liberation a distant hope, Spain and perhaps even Turkey will probably join the Axis ensuring an even bloodier war. Perhaps upping the body count by another fifty million.

Edit: and I'm forgetting about Italy, and various Arab nationalists, as well, if the Middle East is integrated into the Nazis orbit an invasion of Europe wouldn't be possible until you conquer everything from the Atlantic Maghreb all the way to to the suez and Istanbul.

Which isn't possible so that means Cold War. If we're still hypothesizing about invading super Nazi world and its allies were talking about a death toll well in excess of 750 million.

 

Leaving the "how this came to be" mostly aside, we must imagine a rather well functioning axis as compared to OTL with the INdustries of Germany, France and Britain combined. Forget North Africa, its to close to dominating axis influence as they would control that too, the Sahara securing the Southern flank. In these weird scenario they would continue rolling up their enemies until no longer possible (remember the enemies logistics are worse). Thus, they end in Pakistan and the Urals with India beeing the de facto body of the British empire.
To end this war you would have to build nations and infrastructure. Either in SIberia to sustain the effort going West or in the middle eastm where I really think the natural obstacles are too great.
Getting through with Nukes is not really possible so Victory by ICBM's and hydrogen bombs is the most likely. I assume the Nazis would move quite rapidly towards this after they have won in 1941 and get them before Germany is closed to being knocked out by the US nukes.
Cold war seems a good choice.

 

I still want to war game a WW2 of this scale though.

 

I understand that it would be a brutal war, but even the Nazis weren't insane enough to genocide pretty much the entire population of Europe as you speak. And especially not in a life or death war against the Allies. 50 million is already a huge number for Europe, 500 million is just outright insane. Remember, the population of Europe at the time was only around 400 million.

Like, where do we even get the numbers to kill to reach that number here?

So, okay, I understand that Eastern Europe is not going to have a good time. The Nazis were all about their plans to move or exterminate the Balts and Slavs and repopulate the territory with German settlers. It would be brutal, but remember - this is still WW2 we are talking about. Germany could not spend as much resources as it wanted to for mass extermination, and Eastern Europe would just become a massive resource sink. The Nazis were horrible, but they weren't cartoonishly evil, they'd realize that slaughtering everyone while the Allies are pushing at them from all fronts is just not economical. Still, I'd place Generalplan Ost at 80-100 million casualties, and even that is a high estimate due to the reasons above.

The Nazis had no plans for mass exterminating Frenchmen, Englishmen, Benelux inhabitants, Scandinavians or fellow Germans, so any atrocities against them would be against localized resitstance groups and opposition and not a mass killing of everyone who disagrees with the Nazis as you say. Again, they're not a cartoon villain. I place deaths due to European resistance to 10 million at most.

The Holocaust will be much worse, of course, around 20-30 million. This includes not only Jews, but also Roma, homosexuals and other ethnicities that don't fall under the Generalplan Ost umbrella.

The military deaths will be much worse, for obvious reasons, but they can't go to hundreds of millions because, well, common sense applies. I'd say 50 million deaths at most, which includes collateral civilian damage.

Now, after such a war, Europe will be ruined, completely, and never stand up again, but even with the highest possible death rates, I just can't see it becoming a mass European genocide as you say.

 

A fully dominated Nazi Europe not even counting the possibility of them getting the neutrals-Spain and Turkey, and the arab world in their orbit, I just can't even imagine, military deaths to fully liberate that stretch of territory, fully fortified, with an incredible amount of captured industrial and population resources-would lead to a lot of deaths being American/allied soldiers.

You'd have whole cities leveled, whole languages rendered extinct, this makes AANW look modest, it would be something more comparable in scale to a galactic or semi-galactic scale war in space opera in terms of losses and resources mobilized.

 

Such a massive Reich would rapidly collapse under it's weight. Their forces would be so stretched out that I doubt that they could even control most of their territory, especially with massive resistance movements all across their territory, and I'm not even talking about exterminating people or putting up a good fight against the Allies.

Countries are not some sort of war machines that can keep pumping out armies and equipment left and right. The economy of Nazi Germany was near collapse in 1939, they just wouldn't have the resources or industrial capability to mobilize dozens of millions of soldiers for a conflict "comparable in scale to a galactic or semi-galactic scale war" like you imply.

 

this should more aptly be in ASB.

However, if this is what you're looking for, have fun:

 

No American army marching across Russia from Vladisvostok to Moscow?

No conques of Nazi Turkey? March across the Arctic Ocean? The Sahara?

It would be like Ragnorak and Armageddon, utterly apocalyptic.

 

If the reich/Vichy have the med and millions of men to throw at it, invading the mahgreb from the sea/ Sahara is going to get incredibly bloody.