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[–]BandwagonistClassical Marxism 158 ポイント159 ポイント  (4子コメント)

The workers must be armed and organized. The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition… Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.

[–]LeftslideProfessional Anarchist 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (2子コメント)

That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.

--- George Orwell

[–]NewGenerationSlave 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ironic, since he was a traitor.

[–]SocialistKerbal 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dunno why you were downvoted, Orwell made pretty blatant lists of leftists (often with incredibly homophobic notes about their sexuality) to give to the British government... Orwell is a traitor to the left and he deserves no sympathy from the left.

Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwell's_list

[–]northwestwade 172 ポイント173 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Seize the means of violence

[–]---o0o--- 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Making something illegal doesn't mean it will go away.

[–]northwestwade 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Making what illegal?

[–]Ysance 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Guns such as the one pictured, modern select fire combat rifles. In the US they have been banned for new civilian manufacture and sale since 1986.

[–]BrandenKP 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Typical! You know exactly what we're talking about, and we aren't having any of it!

[–]PraiseTheMoist 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Damn you beat me to it.

[–]arjun1967 196 ポイント197 ポイント  (82子コメント)

.........this is not a "liberal" view on guns, its a socialist view on guns.

[–]IntelWarrior[S] 369 ポイント370 ポイント  (48子コメント)

But Liberal = Socialist. I know because Fox News told me so.

[–]PaperCutsYourEyes 70 ポイント71 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Liberal = every government in history viewed negatively. Nazis? Raging liberals. US backed South American dictatorships? All a bunch of liberals. The Belgian congo? Liberal ideology made them cut people's hands off. Neo-Assyrian conquest of Babylon? Liberals made them do it.

[–]fx32 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's so weird to me that "liberal" usually refers to the dems and everything left of it in the US. Here in the Netherlands it refers to rightwing parties ("liberal markets").

[–]rockoman100I am for Socialism because I am for humanity. 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It refers to right wing parties in the US too. People just think they are left wing.

[–]FoxIslander 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

...and Socialist = Communist.

[–]dinkoplician 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"The goal of socialism is communism."

-- Vladimir Lenin

[–]NoZiggidyNoDoubt 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (11子コメント)

To be fair, this view is shared by many. Liberals, Libertarians, Socialists, Anarchists, the NRA...

I fully agree with it by the way.

[–]GalleaniAnarchy 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (1子コメント)

LaPierre, the CEO of the NRA, actually came out recently to condemn the "violent left." It hasn't been a nonpartisan organization for decades.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/02/24/the-head-of-nra-defines-his-new-enemies-the-violent-left-and-judges-who-do-violence-to-the-constitution/

[–]NoZiggidyNoDoubt 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course, he has to uphold the idea that they only promote violence in case of self defense.

[–]Atlas_Shragged 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (8子コメント)

The NRA? Yeah, maybe until minorities start arming themselves to protect against cops, then they'll change their tune.

[–]nwilli100 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Do you really think the NRA cares about it's members race more than their money?

[–]StonedSovietHalfling 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The Republicans tend to change their tune, like the other guy said, when it comes to race, so yes. It's what happened w/ California & the BPP.

[–]ReginaldThatcherysocialist with anarchist tendencies 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The NRA and Republican Party didn't start going full-throttle on the gun rights narrative until the Black Panthers were no longer seen as a threat.

[–]jojob123456Queer Liberation 101 ポイント102 ポイント  (6子コメント)

thatsthejoke.jpg

[–]smugliberaltearsDeath to all who stand in the way of freedom for working people! 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (3子コメント)

liberal in the sense that it's lax or loose, not in the political sense. It's a pun.

[–]deusofnull 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the definition of "liberal" used in this case is more a permissive attitude about a thing rather than a political philosophy.

[–]Godontoast 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This isn't even really a socialist view of guns. In a socialist government the working class would have control of the state apparatus, so they'd be very happy for the government to have a monopoly on the use of force.

[–]arjun1967 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, this depends entirely on how "socialist" the government actually is, and how much control the working class actually has in the government. Remember that a key part of socialism is the devolution of the capitalist state and its functions to institutions controlled by and for the proletariat.

[–]stuntaneous 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

This isn't even socialist.

[–]misyo 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Allowing citizens to be armed used to be a part of the Socialist and Communist Party platforms until recently. Mainly due to the idea expressed in this picture.

[–]punninglinguist 87 ポイント88 ポイント  (25子コメント)

Maybe we should start a charity to buy guns for victims of police violence and their families.

[–]Crabaroni 69 ポイント70 ポイント  (21子コメント)

The Black Panthers used to follow cops around with guns to make sure they weren't harassing black people.

[–]monsantobreath 67 ポイント68 ポイント  (15子コメント)

And the state assassinated them for their trouble.

[–]TH3DR1LL 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Forest gump taught me they weren't the nicest of people.

[–]Ex-wage-slave 50 ポイント51 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Forrest Gump was right. They aren't nice, nor should they be. The fascist pigs aren't nice to us.

[–]PaperCutsYourEyes 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (3子コメント)

And suddenly Republicans didn't give a damn about the 2nd amendment and wanted stricter gun laws.

[–]Peopleareflamable 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think republicans have ran California for quite some time now. You'd think progressives would want blacks to get their rights back that republicans took away, but apparently no matter who runs Sacramento they want the people to be unarmed and easy to control.

[–]MrRumfoord 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the response was more like, "Naw guns are fine, it's those damn black people!" ... to put it nicely.

[–]Peopleareflamable 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

California was an open carry state with tons of freedom for guns, until black peoples started to carry them. That is why California has no gun rights now, blacks people used them to defend themselves and the police state hated that.

[–]peaceonlyHammer and Sickle 78 ポイント79 ポイント  (41子コメント)

The world would be a better place if more leftists were gun owners.

[–]poppymelt 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Something we can agree on.

[–]Peopleareflamable 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Trump supporter. I even agree with that. America in general is better if there is a balance of power between the classes and groups of people.

[–]rockoman100I am for Socialism because I am for humanity. 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

balance of power between classes

Trump supporter

🤔

[–]shagpokewipl 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"For among the other causes of evil that being unarmed brings you, it makes you contemptible..." - The Prince

[–]ProphetOfServer 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I swear 90% of my comments in this sub are just

/r/SocialistRA

[–]AnarchAtheist86 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (93子コメント)

As an American ("right") libertarian that browses this sub, I am glad we share views on gun rights :)

But I am also surprised. If the right is in favor of gun rights, and socialists are too, why on earth is the mainstream left generally not?

[–]JC5 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (17子コメント)

I wouldn't say this view is typical, at least not in my experience. I can understand the argument if you're in the US, But I haven't met a single Socialist in the UK that's in favour of loosening our gun controls for the reasons the Liberal left in America peddle. To me, It's just archaic and unnecessary. I guess it just comes down to different cultures.

[–]KeegstaMarxist 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But the difference is here the reactionaries are armed to the fucking teeth.

[–]Revolution942Democratic Socialist ☭ 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (7子コメント)

As a Canadian I tend to agree. I Don't want to live in a state of perpetual fear that if I don't have a gun then i'm in danger because everyone around me has a gun.

Honestly I think that we are at a point that workers will need the military on their side during a revolution anyway. The AR-15 you own is nice and all but the army has tanks and fighter jets.

[–]AnarchAtheist86 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I would actually disagree. During a revolution, the government is essentially fighting its own people. Tanks and fighter jets are good for blowing up munitions plants, taking out enemy armor, and striking other major targets, but what good do they really do against essentially a militia force? A militia force has no obvious major targets or armor to use. I mean look at America in Vietnam, or America in the middle east, or the British during the American Revolution. In all cases, overwhelming firepower failed (or is failing) to cope against simple guerilla tactics. And when it comes down to guerilla tactics (man on man fighting), an AR15 would almost be essential. Organized governments with massive firepower have had a remarkably shitty record fighting some rebellions.

[–]jonaheim88 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It really does come down to different cultures. Besides our history with firearms, another thing to realize is that a lot of America is very rural still. We see guns as tools for survival. From there they evolve other uses such as recreation. Of course a lot of people will say that the main use is self defense, and that's not really wrong...but it's not the whole story.

[–]IntelWarrior[S] 96 ポイント97 ポイント  (53子コメント)

Because the American "mainstream left" is conservative, not left wing.

[–]AnarchAtheist86 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (40子コメント)

But then why is the American right wing, which is even more right than that, in favor of gun rights?

[–]stredarts 50 ポイント51 ポイント  (28子コメント)

Cause lots of right wing people are baby Marxists who don't know it yet.

Edit: Seriously, people who hate the state and want to arm themselves against it, who think their wages are being stolen by the state, and wish for economic independence are a little bit Marxist. Yes the state is evil, but because it is the armed mob of the capitalist class that needs a force in order to steal your wages. Taxes are just a slice out of your surplus labor that the capitalist is charged for the services rendered by the state.

[–]PotatoChipOnTheFloor 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (24子コメント)

This is true. American conservatives will go marxists way before the overprivileged liberals do. Sad that current leftists aren't putting way more effort into educating and organizing the republicans. This all while the Democratic Party makes it clear that they are capitalists and imperialists.

[–]JudgeJBS 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Are you saying Ben Shapiro is close to Marxist? Can you elaborate this point? What issue would a conservative agree with a Marxist on aside from guns - which, by the way, how they would be distributed is not agreed upon at all.

[–]PotatoChipOnTheFloor 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (8子コメント)

No. the republican politicians are not the same as the powerless masses of people who are underseved. I'm saying the working class must be educated in Marxism and class conscience. Just so happens much of the American working class is being organized by the republicans, that needs to stop.

[–]JudgeJBS 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Oh - I understand your point. Thanks

Do you think any population has ever been properly educated on Marxism?

[–]PotatoChipOnTheFloor 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think this understanding happens individually and almost naturally. . It's my understanding that Americans a hundred years ago came up with socialist ideas on their own. Or like an IWW member once said "I've never read Marx's capital but I have the marks of capital all over my body" and I agree with that. I don't need to read Marx to know about class, but helping each other out would be good. The problem with today's Americans is they're drowning in corporate propaganda. It confuses and distorts everything. And everything becomes messages that promote consumerism and defense of capitalism, the powerful and all that.

[–]OliwriLibertarian Socialism 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Conservatives would at least resent state power as much as your average libertarian socialist

[–]JudgeJBS 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

How so?

To develop a socialist state would you not need a governing body to form the social union of the workers?

[–]stredarts 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The dictatorship of the proletariat's state is the armed proletariat, which is itself. Administration of the economy occurs within the democratic economy not by a separate parasitical firm. Socialism is the constant project of the proletariat to close the contradictions of capitalism, those between knowledge workers and hand workers, city and country, owners and owned, and state and people.

[–]JudgeJBS 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

So a full populace democratic vote is required on every decision?

What if tyranny arises from said democracy?

[–]EnoughRacistPastaChomsky 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not sure. I started with Sanders, discovered Chomsky on youtube, and then became a Marxist. I do think it's a smaller leap from Trump supporter to Marxist than it is from Clinton supporter to Marxist.

[–]jonaheim88 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

well...a poor, average trump supporter anyway.

[–]NuclearFunTimeDelegate Zero 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Precisely. Poor and working individuals regardless of organization in bipartisan two party politics organized by the elite, are much more likely to be sympathetic to Marxism.

Many liberals won't because they have much to lose, and the conservative elites and business owners do too, so they will almost certainly not be sympathetic

[–]stredarts 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was anecdotal evidence of Bernie supporters going over Trump. Trump was offering a devolved Marxist analysis to folks as well as using the same old racist divisions. The challenge socialism always faces is how to unite people on economic grounds while keeping them from fighting themselves around social issues. It's not to hard really but we keep getting squashed by the media and left liberals who unknowingly wield social issues against their comrades.

[–]RustyRundle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yea, I'm a "Republican" but I agree with you. Maybe we disagree on the current solution, but I think that ultimately (especially as automation continues to replace workers) we will be on the exact same page.

[–]NuclearFunTimeDelegate Zero 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It all depends on wording. I have a very conservative friend. I said to him, "Would you join a socialist group?"

"No", he said, "Socialists are scum"

So the next day I said to him,

"Would you join a workers party?" I was sure to list details like seizing the means of production

"Hell yeah" he says.

They can use the ideas, but they are brainwashed to believe they hate socialism

[–]jonaheim88 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you look at it from a historical point of view, the right wing is becoming way more right then they were before, and American leftists are more centrist. Socialists are part of the "very far left" in this country, regular leftists as they would have been years ago shifted quite a bit.

[–]BandwagonistClassical Marxism 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (7子コメント)

American conservatives tend to be strict constitutionalists (mostly), and the constitution is pro-gun. American liberals tend to not care about the constitution as much, despite being very close to conservatives ideologically.

[–]American_SovietAntifa 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I've never met a liberal that doesn't worship the constitution

[–]AccessTheMainframe 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I take it you've only met American liberals, then.

[–]American_SovietAntifa 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

considering american liberals was the context of their comment yeah I was mainly remarking on them

[–]norsethunders 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'd argue that it's because they're authoritarian rather than the fact that compared to other parts of the world they fall more center, center-right. They see a problem, gun violence, and their default solution is to use legislation to control the issue. Rather than accepting a more libertarian approach that prioritizes personal liberty over government authority.

[–]greenbeings 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What about the fact that gun violence and murder is much more prevalent in the United States than in other countries with more restrictive gun laws? For example, France and the United Kingdom both have around 3x less murders than America does, which is primarily explained by gun violence.

I'm inclined to be laissez faire about almost everything involving personal rights to the extent that it doesn't infringe on others rights. If you kill someone with a gun (which is statistically more dangerous than other kinds of violence), it certainly violates the victim's right to life and liberty, doesn't it?

Again, I would love to pretend that you can ignore gun violence, but it actually is a problem in America. It doesn't fit neatly into some ideologies, but the facts are the facts.

[–]d_rudyAnarchist 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is a really big question, but I'll try my best at hitting all the bases.

So first of all, the "mainstream left" are liberals, which are distinctly not leftist. Liberal ideology is pro-capitalist, so working class and poor people with too much power is a problem for the liberal establishment. That said, it's also a problem for mainstream conservatives, but their interests are slightly different.

Both parties are parties of the rich and powerful, but to rule, they need to manufacture consent from the rest of the population. So, both are in the business of convincing people to vote against their best interest through rhetorical games and propaganda. The main demographic for liberals (simplifying) are academics, large unions, and people of color. Academics tend not to be very pro-gun, big unions are more tools of control of the worker-class than actual bastions of worker-power, and since we live in a white supremacist society, giving guns to people of color is something the gov't has no interest in doing (see the history of the Black Panther Party as an example).

On the other hand, the Conservative's main demographics are small business owners, religious Christians, farmers, etc. This demographic tends to be overwhelmingly white and property owning. Also, weapons manufacturers are big donors to the Republican Party. Thus, conservatives are in favor of guns, but construct said laws in a way that makes it far more difficult for poor people of color to obtain them legally. So, really, it has very little to do with supporting gun-rights, so much as making sure the people they like are armed and the people they don't like aren't.

Really, when it comes down to it, both parties will usually support giving more control to police and stiffer punishment for people who take the law into their own hands. They're goal is to maintain the status quo.

Socialists (and communists, and anarchists) are explicitly against the status quo. So, to us, arming the poor, people of color, and other oppressed groups is a step toward breaking the status quo. It has very little to do with the 2nd Amendment for us, though it is rather convenient (except for those of us that live in cities that basically make legal gun ownership impossible).

So, I tried my best at explaining it. I probably missed something or have holes in my argument, but I hope I did at least a half-decent job. Also, judging by your username, you might wanna head over to /r/anarchy101 and ask some questions about anarchism. A lot of anti-gov't sentiment tends toward the right-wing in the US, because I think a lot of people in the US associate the left-wing with gov't control. Anarchism is a left-wing, anti-state political philosophy that might interest you.

[–]SweetJesusBabies 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

what makes liberals pro-capitalist? Forgive me if I'm ignorant, but aren't things like universal healthcare, well fare, etc that many of the liberal platforms run on (while no where near legitimate socialism) more socialist in nature?

[–]h3lblad3 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Socialism is about freedom, something the right (at least the libertarian right) at least pays lip service to. American liberals don't want freedom, they want to prolong capitalism by whatever statist methods seem necessary. You will absolutely see anti-gun socialists, but the arguments aren't based in silly racist/ableist/etc. word plays about violence; they are about the feasibility in achieving socialism with pro-guns as a strategy (and the historic statist crackdowns on left-wing militants).

To give you a new look on socialists, I present a quote from Oscar Wilde's The Soul of Man Under Socialism:

Socialism would relieve us from that sordid necessity of living for others which, in the present condition of things, presses so hardly upon almost everybody. In fact, scarcely anyone at all escapes.

[–]yourmomscasserole 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (12子コメント)

I'm left as fuck, I used to be anti gun because I only saw mass shootings and didn't want to be associated with the culture of murder. In these trying times, I see white vampires trying to start a race war and I needed to regain some control. Now I have a revolver for the first nazi motherfucker who wants to start shit. I think the left assume the best in people so they don't see a need for guns while the right constantly judge what they don't know so they stock up on school supplies.

[–]arthur_figgisConnolly 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (6子コメント)

What kind of revolver? Sheer curiosity. My first gun was a revolver too.

[–]boneleg 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You now also have a public record where you express your desire to kill "the first nazi motherfucker who wants to start shit"

Not going to look good in court if you do have to defend yourself.

[–]SkanderbojiMarxist-Leninist-Maoist 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree most of the way with this. The people should be armed for the preservation of rights, and the state should be armed so long as it represents the workers revolution.

[–]dinkoplician 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party."

-- Mao Tse-Tung

[–]arnorath 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Losing the monopoly on the legitimate use if force is literally part of the definition of a failed state.

[–]bigfinnrider 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stockless assault rifles are for people who want to miss.

[–]bijan4187 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (9子コメント)

please consider r/leftlibertarian

libertarian socialists subreddit

[–]barackoliobama69Libertarian Socialism 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (6子コメント)

r/LibertarianLeft is more active.

[–]SkanderbojiMarxist-Leninist-Maoist 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Damn splitters.

[–]CoffeeDimeAnarcho-Communist | Redneck Revolt 40 ポイント41 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Are you the People's Judean Front or the Judean People's Front?

[–]AThievingStableBoy 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wair, I thought we were the Judean People's Front?

[–]cptjones32William Morris 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Listen. If you want to be a Libertarian Socialist, you have to really hate coercion.

[–]swords-to-plowsharesChristian Anarchist 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (23子コメント)

Do pacifists not belong in this sub?

[–]Lord_BlathoxiCharlie Chaplin 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Pacifists must tread lightly here. I speak from experience.

[–]snifferblisters 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (19子コメント)

Do pacifists have a working solution for the violence visited upon minorities as an everyday fact of life?

[–]swords-to-plowsharesChristian Anarchist 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (14子コメント)

See: the Civil Rights Movement?

[–]primenumbersturnmeon 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (7子コメント)

And here we see the product of the american education system brainwashing people into thinking the civil rights movement began and ended with MLK.

[–]TheGreatWolfyLibertarian Socialist SPUSA IWW 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or that MLK believed non-violence was a universal strategy.

[–]anubus72 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

are you denying that the civil rights movement had a positive impact on civil rights in our society? Sure it didn't solve the problem, i don't think anyone would claim that

[–]primenumbersturnmeon 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not saying that at all. Just that the movement was more than the whitewashed version in the history books, with both violent and non-violent factions that both advanced the cause.

[–]DarkLordKindle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are putting words in his mouth.

[–]snifferblisters 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Right, I forgot that not a single minority has ever been assaulted, arrested on bullshit, or killed since the sixties.

[–]theoncomingnoob 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (1子コメント)

See: Strawman

[–]snifferblisters 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Uh, no, I'm pretty sure I invoked the violence this and other nations use against their minorities, and I'm pretty sure the civil rights movement stands as a very depressing lesson that if principled non-violence can achieve anything, it is the bitter and spiteful acquiescence to matters of law settled for a century.

But, hey, it's cool, you can name a fallacy, you won the internet argument.

[–]KeegstaMarxist 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Which had a large militant wing and wasn't just pacifists. Try again.

[–]swords-to-plowsharesChristian Anarchist 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

From http://peacenews.info/node/6874/erica-chenoweth-maria-j-stephan-why-civil-resistance-works-strategic-logic-nonviolent-conf :

Radical flanks?

Some analysts have argued that the existence, or even the background threat, of an armed resistance produces what the they term a ‘radical flank’ effect, that is to say the authorities are prepared to make concessions to the civil resistance campaign to forestall the possibility of having to deal with a more radical armed opposition. If the threat is only a potential one, that may sometimes be the case.

But the authors point out that acts of violence by an armed insurgency may undermine the dynamic of a civil resistance campaign by causing those with a stake in the regime to close ranks and thus consolidate rather than undermine the regime’s pillars of support.

(edited out extras)

[–]rustang0422Angela Davis 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

For God's sake, reporters entering MLK's house described it as a fucking armory. When he was assassinated MLK's bodyguard and and fellow organizer were both armed. This is liberal bullshit.

[–]qoja 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

But aren't minorities also disproportionally affected by civilian gun violence?

[–]snifferblisters 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure, so are battered spouses.

But we're talking about resistance against the violence employed by corporations and the state. You can talk to an individual person with a gun, and in every case where that person isn't a sociopath on a mission to end lives, you can get them to put down their gun. You cannot convince a police officer to put down his gun, nor can you convince him that his life is not more important than Joe Schmo, such that he will not immediately act with lethal force at the suggestion of an intimation of a possibility of such.

[–]butwhatisit 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

When you look at gun deaths and injuries listed in leagues by per capita, do you ever wonder why USA is failing so badly compared to its neighbours and allies?

[–]snifferblisters 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nah. I have no delusions about what a gun is or means. But if you believe that the structures of exploitation that run America can be ended without violence, you have a ludicrously optimistic view of our power echelon.

[–]RuzihmDebs 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is good and radical. Not liberal by any measure.

[–]KeegstaMarxist 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Spread guns liberally throughout the working class.

[–]scattermoosePete Seeger 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I.....I just really do not want to see another Sandy Hook

Edit: I'm working on my aversion/distrust of guns + gun owners is all

[–]BP_Oil_Chill 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm gonna be that guy and say that that's a sign that more people need to be comfortable and educated about guns, especially based on your edit. Find a friend with a gun and ask him/her to take you out and teach you sometime. They're scary, but they're made to be handled easily by people, and it's a good skill to have.

[–]samwisevimes 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I own a rifle and know how to use it. I have many friends that own guns. This said not everyone should have them. I know people who if they snap are going to become active shooters, and because of their training and practise with guns are going to kill a lot of innocent people.

[–]truetransSTRIKE!!! 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (23子コメント)

I think gun abolition is the best way forward. Melt them all. Turn them into bikes or something. No one has guns.

Cue the argument - but what if the bad people somehow keeeeep their gunnnnns???

[–]Ex-wage-slave 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (7子コメント)

You're aware that people can make ar-15's in their basement, right? Are you planning on abolishing aluminum and steel too?

[–]producer1000000 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's like, the main argument. Of course it's going to be made.

[–]DarkLordKindle 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

And it's the main one because it's the valid one... that never gets answered

[–]d_rudyAnarchist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

In practical application that would mean that none of us have guns, and the state has all of them. That's not really helping anything, unfortunately.

In short, we'll disarm when the state disarms.

[–]Lord_BlathoxiCharlie Chaplin 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm with you, and so is /r/gunsarecool

[–]IamMoody95 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a good thing that the working class already has plenty of guns in America.

[–]SocraticLunacyKropotkin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not at all trying to be a liberal troll or anything, but I'm just wondering if you guys might be able to shine some light on the differences between how the right likes guns vs how the socialist and anti-authoritarian left does as I am still learning about some of these leftist strains of thought.

[–]potato_bus 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Unless your guns are in the order of 120mm on advanced armor, you are not shifting the balance of government 'monopoly' of means of violence

[–]d_rudyAnarchist 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Guerillas often have the advantage against the status quo in that they don't have as many assets to defend, and are far more mobile. Furthermore, war of this sort also has a political component, in which guerillas also have an advantage. History is full of examples of guerillas defeating state forces, even while being far less armed.

[–]fvf 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is there an /r/socialismforadults somewhere? Because this prepubertal drivel is just depressing to read.

[–]banjofan47 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I don't condone violence but for once I agree with a socialist. Neat!

[–]BrandenKP 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

What's your normal political alignment?

[–]banjofan47 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't like being put into a box but I tend to lean heavily libertarian on social issues and ever so slightly to the right on fiscal ones (but I don't know much about the economy, to be honest, I just don't want big government because I'm afraid of authoritarianism)

[–]BrandenKP 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well, if you dislike authoritarians, you're certainly welcome.

Though... I would posit that capitalism itself will march ever onward towards monopoly without intervention.. And that perhaps we should work for a truly free world without the consolidation of power that capitalism affords to the elite.

[–]banjofan47 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I know you might disagree, but I believe that the government would do the same, consolidate power to the elite, and that a balance can and must be struck to truly bring balance. I understand the criticisms of capitalism and there certainly is much to be worked out, but I don't think capitalism is as bad as many socialists make it out to be.

[–]99bakingHot for Trot 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Communism does not always equal big government. I think you should read up on libertarian socialism such as anarchism.

[–]Ducst3r 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To add on to the point above me, communism really never means big government, only some of the ways to achieve it do. From what you said I think you could definitely find similar opinions in libertarian socialists; you should read up a little bit on it (or watch some videos) and maybe you'll be a comrade one day :)

[–]dolphin_master_raceDe Leon 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just don't want big government because I'm afraid of authoritarianism

Have you ever thought about how corporations and capitalism are inherently violent and authoritarian?

[–]-79-Capitalism is debt, Socialism is Freedom 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

With right wing militias being all over the US, and potential government and economic instability coming it has never been more important to be armed.

[–]skysoldierTilliDie 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I will give up my guns when politicians stop lying.

hint hint that's never gonna happen since politicians, from all schools of thought, tend to be selfish, ignorant and greedy. Everyone has a god damn agenda.....no one agenda ever makes everyone happy.

[–]halpimdogradical democracy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Does anyone fathom what it takes to be a violent revolutionary? Or organize a revolutionary cell? It's hard enough to get enough solidarity for a strike these days and you're talking about people's war? Get serious.

Gun violence is destroying the most vunerable communities in america. The left has to offer solutions to those problems.

[–]fuck_you_doin 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (13子コメント)

The fucking police have armored vehicles, the national guard has tanks, the military has aircraft carriers. Keep sucking your measly "citizen" guns dicks you gun loving morons. If the man wants your shit, you ain't stopping nothing.

[–]d_rudyAnarchist 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I used to make this argument too. You're right that engaging an enemy like that on their terms would be a slaughter, but history is littered with examples of a lesser armed force overpowering a greater armed force through guerilla tactics.

[–]primenumbersturnmeon 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"The occupying force is lording its power over you, you should be okay with this!"

[–]Dictator4ever 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (4子コメント)

There are magnitudes more proletariats than there are them. It's simply a matter of standing together.

[–]Ex-wage-slave 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Exactly! Even if they have superior technology, they can't hold a candle to our numbers. Less than 2 million military vs scores of millions of resistors. No contest.

[–]BirdyerMarxist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Especially if the military itself is fractioned by dissenters.

[–]FacehammerGagarin 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

C'mon guys! They'll run out of bullets eventually!

Like I said elsewhere in this thread, the most important result of arming leftists - and it is a pretty important one in Donald Trump's America - lies in making cops and fascist thugs think twice before they do anything. You're not going to out-fight the most powerful military machine the world has ever seen on its home turf, but you might just stop a Muslim girl being kicked to death by half a dozen fash in a pickup.

[–]Kanegawa 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

-to be better targets for drone strikes.

Seriously this strikes me as flawed thinking. The most extreme example you can think of for gun-ownership (civilian led coup) somehow justifies it? At best that's hyperbole.

No untrained militia of any size could go toe-to-toe with the high-tech US military. Unless, of course, the entire country including every last man woman and child would. The likelihood of that is 0%. I wish that weren't the case, but it is.

[–]Akz1918 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Afgan Mujahideen, Mexican Revolution, Cuban Revolution etc.