全 23 件のコメント

[–]InOranAsElsewhereanarchist communist | veganarchist 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Good post!

One thing I wish you'd have touched on is the inherent absurdity of the NAP and private property when followed back historically. One inherent issue is that the taking of property from the collective and claiming it as solely one's own is an act of aggression.

In addition, what I've found maddening about debating with right "libertarians" is many who hold the ideology seem to lack any interest in taking the perspective of the other or challenging their own assumptions. It's a very hollow and dogmatic stance of "this is how things are, how dare you question that, you must just not know about basic economics" that shows a fundamental lack of critical thinking.

[–]Jayk_ 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

One thing I wish you'd have touched on is the inherent absurdity of the NAP and private property when followed back historically. One inherent issue is that the taking of property from the collective and claiming it as solely one's own is an act of aggression.

In the interest of fairness, though, I don't think they try to use it that way. It's more an attempt at a code of ethics than a tool for historical examination. The real flaw is that they assume property is distributed fairly now, or that it would be a greater evil to redistribute it than to let it lie. If you could push a reset button and divide the world up equally between everyone, NAP might be reasonable, at least for a generation or two. Of course, that's ridiculously impossible, but the fundamental flaw is believing in a just world, moreso than in the NAP.

[–]voice-of-hermesanarchist 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's more than just the initial conditions too, though. There's inheritance—which you allude to when you say, "for a generation or two," and then there's shit like forfeiture (whether through "public courts" or "private dispute settlement") and trade. Even pretending there are fair and equitable initial conditions, can it truly be justified that the community has absolutely zero say in what happens to a piece of property? We can't imagine a single context in which it would be tyrannical for an individual to claim absolute "sovereignty" over the fate of a piece of land with their name on it, for example? It's my experience that coming up with that kind of example leaves propertarians spluttering in search of highly contrived and artificial mechanisms by which the "free market" would resolve the matter (and never admit that these mechanisms in fact ultimately remove the "freedom" they claim to cherish, since they just assert that such solutions would be accepted "by rational participants" and therefore are sufficient systemic solutions).

[–]SnugglerificCrypto-anarchist 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Which is why the NAP is self-defeating. If you take something like Indian removal, the propertarians have to either ignore such a thing happened or go into full genocide apologetics mode like Rand.

[–]Sssgth 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Rand was pretty much fash-lite.

[–]ScarletEgret 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why would a user of the NAP have to accept current ownership titles as just?

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, there are a few other directions I could have went but it was getting late. I might expand the essay and make it "modular" so that people can take the beginning and end and use whatever middle argument paragraphs they want, and bash libertarians espousing given points with it that way.

[–]SnugglerificCrypto-anarchist 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's a very charitable interpretation. My less charitable one is that right-libertarianism is the American bastard child of neo-liberalism propped up by corporate interests and eccentric millionaires. While neo-liberalism was an international project with a contingent of refugees and ex-pats from central Europe, most notably the Austrians centered around the Mont Pelerin Society, the American variant was more specifically crafted as a response to New Deal policies seeded by the Volker Fund. There is overlap between the cast of characters of course, as Volker poached Hayek from the British university system. This was in the broader context of business interests building networks of right-wing think tanks, propaganda mills, and pressure groups. (Philips-Fein's Invisible Hands is a good read on this.) All the big name outfits like Cato, Reason, Competitive Enterprise Institute, etc. are the products of corporate cash. This is where many of the blatant contradictions and denialism in the ideology arise from -- e.g., freedom of association is a fundamental right but unions are evil, distributed knowledge is more efficient but it's okay if corporations are run like top-down dictatorships, coercion is bad but it's okay as long as it stays in the private sector, etc. Mises cut to the heart of the matter and put it most succinctly when he wrote to Rand:

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the effort of men who are better than you.

https://library.mises.org/sites/default/files/21_4_3.pdf

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Eh, I tried to cover that a bit with this:

The second category, however, are those who know very well the implications of right-libertarian ideology and in fact cheer for them. They enjoy the fantasy of being part of a small class of elites exploiting and exercising their power over the masses through capitalist business, and inherently accept “liberty” as no more than the privilege of this elite.

Because it is true that a lot of their followers aren't actively evil but rather misguided. As you say, there's a ton of money and propaganda promoting them, in particular on campuses etc.

[–]SnugglerificCrypto-anarchist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wouldn't say they fantasize about being part of a small class of elites -- they are the small class of elites.

[–]Ryuutorak 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I think it's very telling that the Libertarian Party's public faces (officials) try extremely hard to distance themselves from the "right-wing" label, even though they're clearly right-wing.

I find it skeezy, like they know people think throwing more capitalism at shit isn't gonna help anyone, but they focus on the "Libertarian" (with a capital "L") to attract people who are too embarrassed of the Republican Party to be a part of it anymore.

They want their cake, and to eat it, too, which is a common American thing, but it's dangerously intoxicating bc it's so emotionally appealing, but has never actually been tried before.

Different isn't better. You can't overturn corporatism by just "freeing the market" up.

They want a new "first priniciples" movement bc they're sick of Party Thing 1 and Party Thing 2, so all they have to rely on are the archaic words of Cooler Dead White People Than Your Dead White People.

And from that perspective, it's likely to just perpetuate everything we currently hate about our own economy.

But they'll say "You had the choice!" (negative liberty's version of agency) while continuing to ignore the voices of anyone who isn't successful.

It's just an intellectualized, systematized version of the irrational bootstrap myth.

But, Ayn Rand is a woman, so they can token her. "This time, our Cool Old White Person is a woman, so we're more forward-thinking than those Republicans. Smoke some weed with me and talk about objective economic Facts and Figures, and together we can be a slightly more tolerable version of the Republican mainstream! Rationalism FTW!"

It's a very empty, socialization-averse, bonding-averse, men-are-islands ideology (objectivism) and it''s basically just going to make people more alienated and more hyper-competitive and status obsessed, and I'm assuming it will work hard once it gains power and money to police any social science that attempts to critique them.

The "smugness" liberals got to have during their reign as the culture vanguards will just pass on the smug Capital L "Libertarians" (who might actually function as neoconservatives or distributists), and they'll refuse to notice that they've erected their own ivory towers bc they're mostly text-based towers and they won't be able to actually see the gigantic sea of White people that make up most of their movement.

Most of their internet spaces will ostracize you if you even talk about intersectional critiques, which to me shows that they're already pathologically White-fragile.

They'll also devolve into all the "irrational" crap they accuse other people of, calling people like us "SJWs" even when we're trying to take the edge out of our movement.

It'll be a race to the bottom, but with more tattoos and piercings and marijuana.

 

It will, if anything, regiment social oppression structures, and be even better at victim-blaming bc "We made sure you had all the negative liberties you could, so I'm sure that means no one else is racist or sexist or anything! Rational people are never racist, and our economy is rational!!!"

And the beat goes on......

And you get ignorance! And you get ignorance! And we all get ignorance! hashtag Cthulu

[–]voice-of-hermesanarchist 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

But they'll say "You had the choice!" (negative liberty's version of agency) while continuing to ignore the voices of anyone who isn't successful.

Right. If I point a gun at your head, you still technically have a choice: do what I say, or die. Two options, and therefore "freedom." Obviously. ;-)

[–]SnugglerificCrypto-anarchist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hobson's choice is best choice.

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well in that case it isn't negative liberty because you're threatening someone. But suppose you just so happened to lack access to the means of production and were getting mighty hungry...

[–]voice-of-hermesanarchist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah. I was aiming at the implicit parallel there.

We could have fun with it, though. Say you own and live on a small parcel of land, and a rival businessman buys up parcels that surround yours. While you are sleeping, he builds heavy fortress walls to keep you "out of his land." It is, of course, total coincidence that those walls resemble a prison that instead keeps you locked up on your own land. He might even cut all communication and power lines crossing his land, and perhaps build a pretty decent Faraday cage into his enormously tall fortress walls. Let's not get tripped up on some kind of "socialist" argument about public right-of-way or anything, of course; such things should obviously not exist, as they constitute "theft." Where has the NAP been violated by our rival businessman? GO! ;-)

[–]Ryuutorak 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"B-b-but that's the State, not the market! We have all the answers!" My favorite ressurected dead person of the week says so

[–]ComradeOfSwadiaLibertarian Socialist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

tl;dr on the left, we favor freedom from other people's actions. On the right, they favor freedom to affect other people.

Very good post. This is conclusion is something I reached a while ago and cemented that I'd always be a leftist, and a libertarian at that since I value my freedom for other people's bullshit above all else. I became a socialist when I realized that we the people should own the means of production and our surplus value.

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, when you peel off the veil, definitely. Another way to say that is the left favors having actually existing freedom over the mere theoretical possibility of you achieving some state of liberty, which is good enough for right-libertarians.

[–]r4ndpaulsbrilloballs 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Hey Prince, cool write up! I just have 2 ideas you might like to check out:

  1. Locke did indeed write in defense of slavery in his second treatise. But maybe not in the way people would think. He also wrote explicitly against using property as a weapon in his first treatise. He was much more so led by biblical concerns than I think people realize today. He was a statist and a social contractarian unlike right-libertarians and "anarcho-capitlaists." In fact, he wrote a good chunk of the English Bill of Rights after the Glorious Revolution and stuck around to set up some various forms of welfare in the UK, which is very un-libertarian. There are Lockean socialists, although they are relatively rare, and Marx Himself leans on Locke to develop his Labor Theory of Value.

  2. Besides Isaiah Berlin's Two Concepts on Liberty (Positive v. Negative) you talk about here, where negative liberty means roughly 'non-interference from the state,' there are also alternate conceptions where negative liberty means roughly 'non-domination by any person or entity public or private.' This is the essence of the whole Republicanism vs Liberalism debate. But it is worth to realize that perhaps there is some value in the positive/negative distinction and the term 'negative' is simply defined wrong, especially for anyone who cares about hierarchy and equality and domination.

I suppose the main point is that on can take Locke and negative liberty and take them to the left. We do not have to accept the right-libertarian interpretation of these things, and there are alternate formulations out there.

Let me leave you with a surprising Locke quote from the 1st treatise:

A man can no more justly make use of another’s necessity to force him to become his vassal by withholding that relief God required him to afford to the wants of his brother, than he that has more strength can seize upon a weaker, master him to his obedience, and, with a dagger at his throat, offer him death or slavery.

Now that doesn't sound at all like a right-libertarian, does it?

Everything awful about right-libertarianism Locke kind of hand-waves away because he basically says something like, "That would be so ungodly and selfish that you'd get banished from your town and exiled from your church congregation!" which to him was unthinkable. In fact, back then, the main form of social welfare were the Elizabethan Poor Laws, under which the government collected a mandatory land value tax that then went to local church parishes to pay to take in and feed the homeless or make workhouses for them. So in Locke's day-to-day life, he expected churches to serve this and other parochial functions. Locke had no idea that hundreds of years later they'd try to divorce his work completely from God or any religious or state obligation to mandatory giving. It's all very distorted to seem more right-wing than necessary.

[–]SnugglerificCrypto-anarchist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's a great point. Even the Lockean proviso undermines the right-libertarian version of the labor-mixing argument because there is supposed to, in Locke's version, be enough to be left over for the commons. The general problem, besides obvious misreadings, is taking the earlier classical liberals out of historical context in that they were arguing against monarchism and mercantilism. A more direct precursor would be Herbert Spencer -- Hayek's ideas about evolution and mind are basically rip-offs of Spencer.

[–]r4ndpaulsbrilloballs 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The general problem, besides obvious misreadings, is taking the earlier classical liberals out of historical context in that they were arguing against monarchism and mercantilism.

This is 100% the key! Taking the liberal philosophical cannon out of historical context was a deliberate move by Leo Strauss at U Chicago. His followers became the Neoconservatives in the United States. But the whole thing doesn't work if you leave the context in. They had to remove it. He's also the reason why today's political philosophy survey courses break up the ancients and the moderns at Machiavelli--actively making the idea of 'individualism,' the key in splitting the two, and hence putting extreme emphasis upon it as a key concept...

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you know more than me about the context that the classical liberals were writing in, but I tried to say that here:

A fair extrapolation of classical liberalism’s principles and reasoning, not just their conclusions and positions on some issues of the day, might lead one to a sort of libertarian socialism or perhaps a social democratic viewpoint.

Of course I should probably be a little more explicit about context being the difference between one conclusion and another, both stemming from the same consistent principle.

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for this. Good point about the right-libertarian "interpretation" (i.e butchering) of these complicated ideas of positive & negative liberty being the most important thing, which I should make more clear, and great quote from Locke (who I still maintain is the least respectable of the big name classical liberals - the set of Jacobin pieces that John Quiggin wrote survey his writing pretty well and find a lot of hypocrisy on issues like religious freedom, property, etc).