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Manga SpoilersIn Regards to Mutsuki's Character Overall.. (self.TokyoGhoul)

DemonicJaye が 投稿

So in the recent chapter we see Mutsuki embrace the fact that she's a female "gender wise" by accepting that she's embarrassingly feminine after confessing her love to Uta who she presumes to be Haise. Alongside that she openly displays herself having sex with him, I would say it was simple humping but if that's all she was doing I find it odd that Ishida chose to have her remove her top and added the lines as seen here to imply that sexual activity was occuring.

Secondly a lot of people are in an outrage about Mutsuki's status as a transgender being tarnished or I guess misused. I think a lot of people were misusing the term transgender in terms of Mutsuki's character to begin with. There are people who firmly believed that she was a male in both gender and sex when that's not the case, it was clearly mentioned that she requested to be identified as a male "gender wise" in the CCG. It's been pointed out at multiple occasions that deep down Mutsuki was always a female, during the auction when she had to lean on Urie due to her period, during her backstory when she was abused by her father aka the reason she identified herself as male to begin with, and later when she openly tells Saiko that she is in fact a female.

Lastly I'd like to say to those that are enraged about this, what exactly offended you when the details of her being a female (sex wise) have been in the story for quite a long time before this situation even happened? I see comments about Mutsuki's plot as a transgender wrongly portraying trans people by implying that they become like that because they are broken/damaged on the inside or that they're like that in general. I just wanted to clear this up because it's getting somewhat out of hand with people downright talking about dropping the series or portraying their dislike in other ways like destroying the manga in some shape or form. I can respect your opinion on the matter but when it leads to childish things like blatantly destroying the manga.. come on now. What are your thoughts on the matter though? Thanks for reading btw.

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[–]pateuvasiliu 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Sorry but people that thought Mutsuki was trans just wanted her to be. It was obvious as day that she wanted to live as a man because she was abused in the past and wanted that sense of security.

[–]ManletOfSteel 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Not sure why you're being downvoted, but if Ishida listing her gender as "female", her saying "it's not that I have a heart of a man..." and that men's gazes were disgusting as form of justification weren't enough proof.

People wanted to project their desires onto Ishida's work. If she ended up trans, cool. But if not, no need to get mad...because it isn't his responsibility or intent in the first place.

[–]pateuvasiliu 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Not sure why you're being downvoted

Triggered tumblrinas.

[–]EchoZeroEleven 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (18子コメント)

I find the whole hate for Mutsuki's character and perceived gender to be so strange, it's actually foreign.

The plot has always made believable pivots based on character motives. With Mutsuki descending into her darker impulses rather than rising above them, her future behavior may indeed affect the plot in ways we can't tell yet.

I can't remember anyone predicting Takizawa killing Tatara, or Houji's entire squad. Yet, it made sense for him to do so given his motives and twisted mindset.

We don't know what Mutsuki will be capable of in the future, but I'm certain this is the beginning of something. Like a time bomb, she's being primed for a future event beyond this current one.

And that interests me.

[–]PrismAzure 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (17子コメント)

She is not hated because of the gender confusion, but because she is considered a Kaneki "clone".

[–]EchoZeroEleven 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (16子コメント)

I think that's a inaccurate assessment of her character.

Sure, Kaneki was shy and naive in the beginning, with cruel impulses blossoming after torture and absuive childhood.

Mutsuki has these things too, but also displayed a fear of men, instead of a fear of loneliness, indulges in dominance power trips, enjoys the act of killing, and, most recently, harbors unhealthy obsessions.

Kaneki couldn't stand to be alone and lose those he loved, so he became cruel as a necessity to protect them.

Mutsuki, subjected to similar traumas as Kaneki did, became twisted and now relishes inflicting pain on others, and wants to own the person she loves.

Similar beginnings, completely different outcomes.

[–]PrismAzure 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Also I'm pretty sure the recent shitwave is only happening because she loves the MC in a very twisted way. When she did worse things to Torso, nobody cared, but now that the MC is implied, then people start whining because they want him to stay away from love drama.

[–]EchoZeroEleven 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Mutsuki's character is always making shitwaves - it's always entertaining to watch.

But good point - when she messed up Torso and desecrated his corpse, there should have been a bigger reaction. That's an important change in character, and a marked difference from her and Kaneki, whom did torture his torturer, but decided not to kill him...and certainly did not desecrate/mutilate his corpse.

[–]DemonicJaye[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (13子コメント)

I guess the catalyst for this shitwave was the rape element and Mutsuki embracing her feminine desires, the Torso scenario was way more intense and nobody batted an eye.

[–]EchoZeroEleven 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

That's such a strange reaction to take towards a character, when the character development always leaned in that direction to begin with.

But, then again, the shitwave is funny. Anyone got links to great tumblr outrage? Besides the one recent post?

[–]DemonicJaye[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Exactly, it's a mixture of denial, confusion at the recent developments, and a hint or maybe cup full of salt. Agreed though, I don't think I can take tumblr seriously anymore after this mess, I'd be glad if Ishida purposely triggered them again at this rate.

https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/tokyo-ghoul

You might be able to scroll around and see some salt here and there but it mostly died down.

[–]EchoZeroEleven 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Tumblr is not a redemptive place for faith. Except for excessive self triggering outrage porn. In which case, welcome to your new church.

[–]DemonicJaye[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Your pretty good at symbolism my friend, but that's true. No wonder the term tumblrina came to existence.

[–]aesperia 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Being on tumblr and pointing out that Mutsuki is not trans is the easiest way to communicate suicidal tendencies. I don't think she is. She is scared of what men do to her because of her gender, so she hides her gender. It's as simple as that.

[–]ShadrakC 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (21子コメント)

I am trans and I never saw Mutsuki as transgender or at least not with intent to transition, possibly genderqueer but meh. Truthfully, while I'm not about to drop the series over things, I've just become bored with the sheer number of contrivances and absurdities being thrown in to make the fights interesting or the characters more shocking. Manga really has sorta migrated from its original point and seems much too scattered to be engaging for me.

The Mutsuki Situation is becoming one such point because I honestly really don't give a shit about his/her/their arc anymore. Like wow Uta you made Mutsuki's mask look just like Kaneki's but Urie has been the main foil in the Qs towards him, but now we have 7 different simultaneous perspectives. To me the larger the battles, the weaker the plot focus, and this is one of the largest battles yet outside of the franken-arc with rushima and cochlea happening at once.

This was kinda an eventual and obvious culmination since Mutsuki had also displayed disturbed sexual tendencies when the "psychotic" personality mutilated Torso's genitals, sodomized him, and shoved the remains down his throat. While that was vengeance, it was only natural Mutsuki adopt the habits of their abusers, violence and sexual assault, since they have been compared to Kaneki since the beginning who adopted Jason's sadism to cope.

Am I surprised that any of this happened? Not at all and I personally care very little about Mutsuki's ultimate gender status considering people of all kinds can be fucked up and abusive and its not like we as trans people are really missing out on positive representation lmao. I'm just bored of their arc since its mostly just one plot point after another purposed only for shocking the reader.

[–]Amasero 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Uta you made Mutsuki's mask look just like Kaneki's

That was the point...

Ken is Frankenstein monster.

Tooru is a Mummy.

another purposed only for shocking the reader.

But it's not just for shock value. A lot of these things have been SHOWN, and HINTED at since early in the series. They are just being revealed now.

Pretty sure this is called "Foreshadowing."

[–]ShadrakC 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Just because it took a while to set up doesn't mean its good writing; in my personal opinion, Mutsuki's arc is sloppy and their character, unnecessary.

[–]Amasero 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I respect your opinion.

I also agree she is a sloppy character, and I wish my old theory was true. Where every Q dies a way Ken almost died.

So if Tooru died to Torso's torture. I think that would have been the better outcome.

But it's Ishida, I'll give him credit, and faith. The story isn't over, so i'm still saving judgement on ALL characters that haven't died yet.

[–]ShadrakC 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Fair enough, I just think he dug himself a pit by trying to think of ways to make the multitudes of new characters he introduced relevant and interesting in unique ways and hes kinda just bullshitting at this point. Re: has such a vast amount of characters that trying to give each of them a small spotlight kinda just takes away from the story imo. Mutsuki's arc has always been "whats the most fucked up stuff we can put this child through to create another even more mentally damaged sociopath" and i've just gotten bored with it.

[–]Argetnyx 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

tbh, part of the draw of TG for me is how every character has a role in the grand scheme of things.

While I agree that Mutsuki has been a little spotty lately, she's no longer in the Q's squad, she's much more battle hardened with little representation of that transition, etc. At the same time though, there was that spotty section of Kaneki's development in the original TG after he left Anteiku and in :re when he was the Black Reaper.

I have a feeling that she will serve a larger role in the future. Whether directly opposing Kaneki through whatever arises from the wreckage of the CCG or by Kaneki's side, or even as something unexpected. So at the moment, I hold my judgement and instead focus on more important players of the story.

[–]Argof--kyourself 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's torture porn at this point. At this point it feels like Ishida has shown every magic trick in his bag and there's not much surprises left.

[–]Argof--kyourself 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In regards to having an escalation of weird stuff it's beginning to feel like shlock.

[–]thispeen2smol4me 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm also trans and I agree with every point you said. I don't know why people would want her to be trans anyway, she'd be a terrible representation for the community.

[–]papermiceB -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I agree with pretty much all your points. Mutsuki hardly seems like a character with a point anymore, just a character meant to shock and appall us, which just doesn't interest me.

[–]ShadrakC 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Kind of a wasted potential in my opinion but its interesting to know now that Mutsuki was shivering when Haise cried over Touka not because of Sasaki's male gaze but because they were jealous that senpai wanted to enter the bone zone with the coffee lady.

[–]Argof--kyourself 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (4子コメント)

If anyone that felt victory in this chapter it was the Touken crowd.

[–]ShadrakC 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Coffee girl for his Coffee World

[–]pateuvasiliu 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I did, quite a bit. At this point the only one that doesn't see that Touken is a ship is Kaneki himself, lol.

[–]Argof--kyourself 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

But whose the biggest shippers in the series?

[–]tower_knight 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably Hinami and Nishiki

[–]GoddessOfDarkness 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This so much hate Ishida handling of females in :re.

[–]hchen5041 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I loved the chapter. Steamy as fuck.

[–]papermiceB 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I can't speak for everyone, but I really doubt people thought Mutsuki was male in both gender and sex, I certainly have never seen that argument. People thought Mutsuki was a Trans Man, not a transitioned male. It has always been very clear what Mutsuki's sex is, but sex doesnt denote gender. So, I think you are misunderstanding the issue here, people are not offended that Mutsuki is female (sex) this has always been clear. A lot of poeple still view Mutsuki as trans because nothing they did in this chapter was something a trans person couldn't do. Trans people still enjoy and want sex like everyone else, a Trans person can be embarrassed in they act outside of their preferred gender. While I find it EXTREMELY unlikely Mutsuki is Trans at this point, I can see where they are coming from. They wanted good positive Trans representation, instead they got a character full of tired tropes.

I am reserving judgement, but can't say I'm looking forward to whats coming with Mutsuki.

[–]Ryuuji_Gremory 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well it was imo made pretty clear from the start that Mutsuki is no real transgender person to begin with, she wanted to be identified as male to hide and protect herself because of her past trauma and not because she thought of herself as a male (well that's the simplified version). So I never really understood all that drama around Mutsuki's gender.

[–]ShadrakC 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some trans dysphoria has roots in abuse but more so as a parallel kinda thing, something that people alien to the experience mistake as a cause and effect thing rather than merely another factor working against an already at risk trans youth. I didn't think they were trans either.

[–]papermiceB 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not really. That aspect of Mutsuki's character was not clear until the Rushima arc, before then, since it was revealed Mutsuki was wearing a binder and thus, female, people have thought Mutsuki was trans. So no, it really hasn't been clear from the start.

[–]TigerHix 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

My kind advice would be, as Japan is (still) a very reserved country where people are mostly unfamiliar with gender politics, never assume a human character in a manga series to be any kind of gender except male and female, until they reveal themselves.

[–]papermiceB 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree, I think thats the best way to approach these things, but a lot of people just dont understand this about Japan, and can't help but view TG through their western lens. This type of backlash is to be expected with a character like Mutsuki.

[–]Amasero 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

People view Tooru for being a Trans because idk, for some reason they can't process the story. I'm sorry, but she is a girl pretending to be a guy.

That's not trans anything. That's just someone pretending.

She is basically like Karen. Karen is a girl, but took the role of a boy for her family linage or w.e.

Yet everyone knew she was a chick, yet she was still playing the role.

That's what Tooru is doing. She is just playing a role, at this point she is just cosplaying.

That's not trans anything.

Just my opinion.

[–]NarukoOtaku 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

This needed to be said, but in all honesty (talking about Mustuski's character not anything else) she could've been written better than this (she's a victim after all), and knowing her current state Urie or Saiko (having a little glimpse of her true self) should've comforted Mutsuki or opened a talk with her as family not ignore her current changes (like what Urie did for some reason, after the incident with Akira and knowing the change in Mutsuki's RC cells level, he should've started a talk with Mutsuki).

[–]KaramQa 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Tokyo Ghoul isnt set in the west

[–]NarukoOtaku 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What? I don't get what you mean? I know TG is a Japanese Manga, so what's your point? (sorry English isn't my first language)

[–]TigerHix 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess he meant your proposed story would be suitable for Western's taste, since in Western stories we see less twisted characters with such dark story development.

My opinion is, sure Mutsuki as a person "deserved better", but Ishida is the one to decide her future. I think you couldn't say Ishida handled it "bad" because the story isnt going the direction you wanted it to be.

[–]CCV21 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree that it is an overreaction to drop the series just because you have an issue how one character is being portrayed. If you are this far into Tokyo Ghoul you should know by now that Sui Ishida creates situations of cognitive dissonance with all of his characters.

[–]rizeedd 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Her/his gender does not matter to me. She/he is an interesting character that was insane and getting more insane in that insane world. Btw transgender are treated differently in different cultures so do all other genders. The Western values are different from eastern. Just because it did not fit with your way of thinking doesn't make it wrong.

[–]Captain-Mainwaring 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really dislike her overall not due to any of the gender bullshit but I just have never been able to care for her as a character. Even with Ishida putting a well-constructed backstory behind her I still don't enjoy her when she's got panel time.

[–]Javajulien -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Lastly I'd like to say to those that are enraged about this, what exactly offended you when the details of her being a female (sex wise) have been in the story for quite a long time before this situation even happened?

I'll take a crack at this, though I am in no way an expert or authority on this topic. There is a negative stigma that those who are trans are just "suffering a mental disorder" and whether it was the writer's intent or not, he veered straight into that territory with Mutsuki's arc.

[–]Amasero 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (1子コメント)

but she isn't even a trans...

She is legit like Karen. A girl pretending to be a boy.

[–]Pfluftl 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that's exactly part of the perceived problem. Because this stigma also means that there are no "real" transgender people who actually feel and think like the other gender, just mentally ill people who wrongly think that they are the other gender or who are lying and pretending. I'm pretty sure most of the fanbase is completely capable of understanding Mutsuki's character, but the people on tumblr etc are afraid that we are not.

[–]pateuvasiliu 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

those who are trans are just "suffering a mental disorder"

But... according to WHO it is a mental disorder.

[–]papermiceB 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

According to Japaenese law and society, it is a mental disorder.

[–]Imumybuddy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's changing in their next review of their definitions of mental illnesses. Source 1, Source 2.

[–]Argof--kyourself -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.

It was called gender identity disorder before.

[–]Imumybuddy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, the DSM (bible of psychiatric definition and diagnoses) changed the definition to reflect the fact that it's not to be considered a mental illness. This is the same as when homosexuality was struck from the DSM to reflect the fact that that is not a mental illness either.

[–]Argof--kyourself -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ok here

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

Edit here's another study done

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

[–]Imumybuddy 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

His studies have never been peer reviewed, or published in respectable journals. That one that you've quoted has been debunked countless times.

Basically, he first off reports suicide rates amongst trans-folk who have undergone SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) are twenty times higher than the suicide rate amongst those who are not transgender.

This statistic is misleading, because the high suicide rate of transgender people has been linked in multiple studies to be a result of how being discriminated against in an extremely harsh manner can lead to suicide.. The question that Dr. McHugh should be asking is not "are trans people happier than the general populace" it's "are trans people who have undergone treatment happier than those who have not?"

Two major studies support that latter question as a definitive yes Source 1, Source 2.

This along with many transgender people exhibiting hormonal disorders correlate very strongly with the identity of trans-folk Source 3, along with this those exhibiting Anorexia and Body-Dysmorphia, mental illnesses quoted as similar by his study are not actually treated in the same way that trans people are Source 4.

As a result, some states – California, New Jersey, and Massachusetts – have passed laws barring psychiatrists, “even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor,” he said.

This is the same as gay-conversion therapy. It doesn't work, and is largely considered in-humane.

In addition to this, Dr. McHugh's definition of what transgender people are is vastly different from what the DSM defines them as, along with him having incredibly dated Freudian views, who's theories and studies have also been completely disproved.

[–]KaramQa -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its true you know. The mental thing

[–]DemonicJaye[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I have no idea where Ishida is leading her character, if she's meant to be a female abuse victim that succumbs to performing similar traits to others and down the line overcomes these struggles to accept herself and learn the meaning of love.. I'll openly accept this. I'm starting to understand why people are upset about the recent developments, mostly because they heavily relate to the character and grew attached to their struggles like it was apart of them. Another point is, Mutsuki doesn't have any mental disorders. She's simply put, an abuse victim who slowly destabilized and is seeking love. I can understand and respect some of these opinions, but when words fly like "the story is ruined" or "shit I'm dropping the story" I find it somewhat childish that one whole character that has no direct role in the plot made you drop or bash the story.

In terms of Mutsuki affecting the plot, she's really had no direct stimulus to the grand scheme of things. I'm somewhat glad we're delving further into her character because I enjoyed the parallels between her and Kaneki and she seems to be breaking away from those parallels heavily but she isn't an integral piece of the plot. She may have an effect on the Q's since they're technically a family, and maybe the CCG but that's about it. In a way though this arc is essentially her version of the lab raid and overall a majority of Post Aogiri. She's openly displaying violent tendencies under the pretense of wanting to find comfort and love similar to Kaneki but in a more twisted fashion. Ishida will no doubt be focusing on her character more than ever and I hope he further develops her character and her effect on everything around her since she really isn't driving the story anywhere.

[–]Argof--kyourself 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm pretty sure that having violent tendencies is a mental disorder.

[–]AlastorCrow 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have no idea where Ishida is leading her character, if she's meant to be a female abuse victim that succumbs to performing similar traits to others and down the line overcomes these struggles to accept herself and learn the meaning of love.. I'll openly accept this.

Ishida has shown this circle of abuse and violence through multiple characters in the series now. People who felt wronged, abused, or neglected have all acted out in their own ways. Kaneki repressed memories of his abuse, Yamori became more vicious after undergoing torture (and picked up the hobby himself), Torso's emotional trauma from the way his father took his only chance at connecting with a human being led him to find comfort by acting out his violent fantasies. There's more to that list but you get the idea.

I'm starting to understand why people are upset about the recent developments, mostly because they heavily relate to the character and grew attached to their struggles like it was apart of them.

That's projection. I can understand why but it is by no means the responsibility of the mangaka to cater to a specific group of people because it is his story in the end.

Another point is, Mutsuki doesn't have any mental disorders. She's simply put, an abuse victim who slowly destabilized and is seeking love.

We're talking about the same Mutsuki who experienced physical, emotional, and sexual abuse through out her life, killed cats and other critters to put herself at ease, and turned Torso's corpse into a dickless piece of modern art? Mental and emotional disorders are brought about by more than just hereditary factors. External sources are almost always part of what exacerbates or causes them to manifest in the first place. Some people have a higher tendency due to predisposition from factors such as early emotional trauma, a family history of mental illness, or unhealthy coping mechanisms. TL;DR - at this point, Mutsuki DOES have a mental disorder.

[–]LightCrazy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Another point is, Mutsuki doesn't have any mental disorders

Did we read the same story?

[–]muraenae -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mutsuki was initially presented as transgender. Mutsuki used male pronouns, the men's bathroom, he even wore a binder. He explicitly states that he wants to live as a man. And, well, we've been reading the manga so far, and the way Ishida has handled Mutsuki's gender has been worrying.

At first, after Mutsuki was shown to wear a binder, I thought that there was finally someone like me being represented in one of my favorite manga. But after all this, I feel disappointed.