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Niall Ferguson, "I was wrong on Brexit" (youtu.be)

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[–]Irelandzogg18 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (41子コメント)

The depths of loathing I feel towards Neil Fergusson are profound. If you want to waste six hours of your life you should watch his Empire series. His defense of the British Empire in this series has left me with a lasting prejudice against him.

The systemic atrocities committed by the British empire still scar my country today. It is hard to quantify the lasting damage it caused. I think the best argument is geographic. Ireland is roughly a third the size of the UK. If Ireland had a population density the same as the UK it's population be roughly 20 million. The current population is roughly 6 million.

I understand that this argument abandons common sense and statistics. I still think it's valid because that lost population of millions is so damning it is clear evidence of the systemic cruelty and neglect of the British Empire.

If I ever met Neil I'd probably go full Jeremy Clarkson and just hit him.

[–]joeflux 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Ireland is roughly a third the size of the UK. If Ireland had a population density the same as the UK it's population be roughly 20 million. The current population is roughly 6 million.

What does this have to do with the British Empire? Ireland has a low population because many died during the Irish famine.

In 1841, just before the famine, there were around 8 million people Ireland!

[–]Irelandzogg18 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The British Empire ruled Ireland during the Famine.

Arguments can be made that the Famine was due to shocks to the food supply or that it was Irish landlords that ordered the evicitions. Arguments can be made for or against anything.

The dramatic disparity in the current population between Britain and Ireland can't be ignored. It is a symptom of profound mismanagement.

The fact that the British Empire was the instrument of that mismanagement also can't be ignored.

[–]United KingdomHawkUK 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A difference in population density is not unusual: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:EU_NUTS_2_population_density_2007.svg

You're about as densely populated as central France.

[–]joeflux 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The British Empire ruled Ireland during the Famine.

So to be clear, you're demonstrating how evil the British Empire was by blaming it for the Irish Famine?

Arguments can be made for or against anything.

Okay, but I'm trying to work out what your argument actually is.

The dramatic disparity in the current population between Britain and Ireland can't be ignored. It is a symptom of profound mismanagement.

Profound mismanagement of whom? To be clear, you're blaming the mismanagement of the British Empire? So, up until 1922?

You're blaming the British Empire for the population of the Ireland today, despite that being nearly 100 years ago?

[–]Irelandzogg18 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're blaming the British Empire for the population of the Ireland today, despite that being nearly 100 years ago?

That's exactly what I'm doing. The Cromwellian conquest of Ireland in 1600s probably had a more profound effect but the evidence is not as clear as the Irish Famine.

Profound mismanagement of whom?

As I said in an earlier reply my argument is geographic. The physical island of Ireland was profoundly mismanaged while being ruled by the British empire.

So, up until 1922

I'm not a blinkered Irish nationalist that falls for the myth of evil Britain having her evil way with innocent Ireland. The most profound damage done to Ireland was done by the Irish. Also when I say the British Empire I'm not discounting Irelands role in supporting and expanding that empire.

My point is that the low population density of Ireland compared to Britain is a clear indicator of profound mismanagement. I don't think that mismanagement ended with the British Empires rule in 1922.

That doesn't change the fact that the system of government that was the British Empire had a major role in the mismanagement of Ireland.

[–]United Kingdomyubnubster 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your arguement seems reasonable. Although, I actually wish we had your population density.

[–]taxusbaccata 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well technically Ireland wasn't ruled by the British empire, it was constitutionally part of the UK, sent mp's to parliament and we even had Irish prime ministers. Also note that roughly one third of the British empires home troops were Irish and many colonial administrators, generals and officials were Irish.

Ireland likes to forget that it was just as big a part of building and maintaining the empire as wales or Scotland was and whilst anti-catholic discrimination and a corrupt electoral system left many Irish disenfranchised and the famine relief and other UK domestic policies were clearly also made worse by anti-Irish sentiment. It is also worth noting that the poor in England were also treated like shit, couldn't vote, died on mass from over work and disease and many were condemned to the poorhouse.

[–]fed_shmed 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Irish population increased massively between 1800 and 1841.
Clear evidence of good British administration according to the OPs logic.

[–]Leinsterjusttoreplytothisnow 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The resulting starvation and mass emigration was the result of British mismanagement.

[–]VampireMileSquare[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

For what it's worth. I also don't really like him.

That being said his views here are almost exactly the same as mine. Started out reluctantly supporting Remain and now think Brexit will end up being the right decision.

[–]Irelandzogg18 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If your up for a long read the Center for European Reform released a report on Brexit.

I wrote a summarry in a post in /r/geopolitics.

The three main outlooks it takes are

A soft exit with Free Trade Agreements between the UK and the EU (Highly unlikely)

A hard exit falling back on WTO rules. (Likely)

A harder exit dragging every trade rule through the courts. For example the UK could be expelled from the European free skies agreement. (Possible).

I found it very convincing and a bit terrifying.

[–]VampireMileSquare[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well I disagree with their assessment.

What will happen is a soft brexit dressed up as a hard brexit which European leaders will use to tell people Britain got a poor deal.

Ultimately it's in both sides interest to conclude a soft brexit. The EU whilst bigger cannot withstand another economic shock. This gives Britain the advantage. Take a look at Southern European bond yields if you want to see something terrifying.

Greece is also about to default again and the EU won't have Obama around to push the IMF into a bailout. I'm fact Trump may well threaten to cut IMF funding if they agree to another bailout.

The EU is in very real trouble.

I would actually be surprised if the EU exists in its current form within 2 years.

[–]Irelandzogg18 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well I didn't see Brexit coming or the Trump presidency. Hopefully your right because if there is a hard Brexit after the UK the next most screwed country is Ireland.

[–]European UnionNew-Atlantis 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Started out reluctantly supporting Remain

I have the impression that in the heart of his heart Ferguson always was a Brexiteer.

[–]SlovakiaNiikopol 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just as BoJo has been Remainer but political career came first.

[–]European UnionNew-Atlantis 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, Bojo is a pure hypocrite. He will back whatever cause appears to him most promising at the time. Bojo doesn't even make an effort at being consistent. Ferguson is also intellectually dishonest; however, as a historian he has to maintain a front of academic credibility.

[–]BulgariaSzkwarek 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (11子コメント)

What he explains in the series are the ways the British Empire influenced the world and the many acomplishments it gave it.

It isn't a defence of its crimes or does in any way refute the fact they happened.

You should learn that history isn't black and white and the same geo-political entity can easily do both good and bad over the centuries. If it has done bad, it does not in any way mean the good didn't happen or should be forgot. They should both be talked about, and i believe the crimes are definitely talked about a lot. So why can't there be a series about it's acomplishments as well? Because it would annoy people from countries that suffered? Not good of a reason. The acomplishments of the British Empire are profound, numerous and quite important in shaping our modern world, so this historical significance makes your butthurt irrelevant when it comes to informing future generations about this Empire.

As G. R. R. Martin wrote:

“A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.”

[–]ItalyPisodeuorrior 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (10子コメント)

You can say that because they won the war(s). I've never in my life seen a documentary about the good things the nazi or the Kaiser did. There must have been some.

The British invented concentration camps, amongst other things, yet I never ever hear anyone mention British atrocities. Personally I kind of dislike your argument, regardless of how you put it, it sounds a bit like "oh yes, they kill and raped and pillaged all over the world, but look at those railways, all worth it".

In short, I think that no, the atrocities of the Empire are very rarely mentioned, and I think that "the bad things" are kind of shrugged in favour of the good things, whereas it should be the other way round.

[–]BulgariaSzkwarek 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

You can say that because they won the war(s). I've never in my life seen a documentary about the good things the nazi or the Kaiser did. There must have been some.

So? Of course people should know of the good thhings they did.

The British invented concentration camps, amongst other things, yet I never ever hear anyone mention British atrocities.

Then you must live under a rock. The entire world whines, especially all the left and liberals in the west, about the attrocities of colonialism and blames pretty much everything in the world on it. I think you are lying for hte sake of argument, you can't be that separated from the world.

Personally I kind of dislike your argument, regardless of how you put it, it sounds a bit like "oh yes, they kill and raped and pillaged all over the world, but look at those railways, all worth it".

That is not my argument and i nowhere claimed the attrocities were ever "worth it". Stop trying to spin what i wrote and peddle your agenda.

[–]ItalyPisodeuorrior 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

My agenda? Are you high?

[–]BulgariaSzkwarek 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Are you living under a rock that you are unaware of how widely colonialism is discussed and criticised all over the world?

[–]ItalyPisodeuorrior 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yeh you should really show me where then since you're familiar with it, I'm over the internet all day and honestly I can't see this sparkly discussion condemning colonialism going on to be honest.

Are you having a bad day? Chill out mate.

[–]BulgariaSzkwarek 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

If i told you i had no idea people criticized, hated or condemnded the nazis, even though i am all day long on the internet and in discussions, would you believe me or assume i lie/exaggerate because perhaps i have some kind of right-wing agenda? And then i tell you to chill out when you doubt that such a thing is possible, and please show me when have people ever criticized the nazis or compared bad things to them. Truly, i'v never heard of it and firmly believe it should be given more voice. -_-

[–]ItalyPisodeuorrior 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

No dude you're really taking it too seriously, I wasn't assuming you had a right wing agenda, I don't have a far left agenda, and in fact, I'm not claiming anyone in this thread had an agenda.

I was commenting on your post while disagreeing with it, which is something people do on occasions on public forums, without necessarily trying to further any agenda.

Is this your first time on the Internet? In that case, welcome!

As for the rest, are you joking? Do you really want me to go fetch links showing you that "people ever criticized the Nazi or compared bad things to them?".

Oh dear lord are you for real?

[–]BulgariaSzkwarek 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You don't seem to get basic concepts like me asking you to show me when have people "ever" criticized the nazis being a way to explain to you how ridiculous you asking me to show when people criticize colonialism is. People criticize the nazis all the time - and that's exactly what they do with colonialism, so your original claim colonialism isn't criticized enough and you'd like me to show you where it is, is equally ludicrous as asking when does anyone criticize the nazis.

[–]dickbutts3000 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The British invented concentration camps, amongst other things, yet I never ever hear anyone mention British atrocities.

There's documentaries about them all the time on British TV. The Nazi's are credited with rocket technology that eventually led to the Moon landings and all sorts of technological break throughs this is hardly unknown and hidden away.

Also the Nazi concentration camps were very very different to the type the British used comparing the two is disingenuous.

We see tons of people praising the Roman Empires accomplishments despite the slavery and savage destruction of people.

[–]United KingdomB_L_Sisko 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've never in my life seen a documentary about the good things the nazi or the Kaiser did. There must have been some.

They improved technology massively. Nazi technology and industriousness was awesome.

[–]8eeblebrox 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Haters gonna hate.

[–]Irelandzogg18 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

True that.

[–]8eeblebrox -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (6子コメント)

If Ireland had a population density the same as the UK it's population [would] be roughly 20 million. The current population is roughly 6 million.

Can you imagine an Ireland with 20 million people in it?

[–]Irelandzogg18 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Imagine a London sized Dublin.

or

a Dublin sized London

[–]European UnionNew-Atlantis 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

a Dublin sized London

London is what it is because of the empire. For Dublin to be like London, Ireland would have had to have an empire too.

[–]Irelandzogg18 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If Dublin has net immigration of 100,000 a year and maintains it's natural growth rate of 8.1 per thousand by my calculations Dublin should reach Londons current size of 14 million in 2092.

All we need to do is discover Unobtanium in the Wicklow mountains then we won't need an empire.

[–]smsjohnson 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Assuming London's 1.4% growth rate continues, by 2092 it would 41million.

Ofcourse both predictions are ridiculous, but "bad math" is fun for a giggle.

[–]European UnionNew-Atlantis 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

All we need to do is discover Unobtanium

Most nations without an empire have their Unobtanium.

[–]8eeblebrox 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It'd be great. Trust me when I say you don't want Dublin to be like London. You really don't.

[–]United KingdomB_L_Sisko -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If I ever met Neil I'd probably go full Jeremy Clarkson and just hit him.

Because you're a leftist ogre that does not know how to live in a civilised society. It is no small wonder that the Left and Islamists co-operate so much, the modus operandi is the same: counter argument with violence.

[–]YoungAngryWhiteMan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, considering Niall's liberal positions on use of war.

[–]dickbutts3000 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yes always a great way to get your point across about how bad violence can be is to assault people.

[–]YoungAngryWhiteMan 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Isn't that the hardline conservative who cheated on his first wife with illegal imigrant Ayann Hirsi Ali?

[–]VampireMileSquare[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What's wrong with Hirsi Ali?

[–]YoungAngryWhiteMan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Besides lying about her past on her asylum application?

[–]londonMiskiMoon -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep.

[–]londonMiskiMoon 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What a fucking prick.

[–]Isle of ManMonaoeda 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's just parroting the same bullshit that has been debunked many times.

Blaming EU for refugee crisis when the UK is far more responsible for example.

Same garbage as always.