43
44

Horizon: Zero Dawn and my mistrust of modern open world games (self.truegaming)

lmaocarrots が 投稿

I'm currently playing through Nioh and find myself in love with its mission structure with explorable areas, as opposed to Dark Souls's loosely connected, sprawling open world. Don't get me wrong, both have good qualities, but with Nioh I don't feel like I'm always missing another way to go that I should've remembered for later. Instead I can say to myself "lets sit down and play one mission" and when it's done I know I'm done.

In the scheme of things, Dark Souls is a very unique, mostly good example of a modern open world. It's linear enough to be focused and only really falters when discovering where to go next feels like a chore (or a Google search). It also helps that Dark Souls gameplay is top notch.

The open world that I've grown to hate is the "here's an expansive open area, the main quest just happens to exist in it and everything else is filler" variety. These are your Assassin's Creeds, Watchdogs, really anything by Ubisoft. A few developers pull it off and these are the developers that spend the better part of a decade making sure their games avoid this artifice (Rockstar, CD Project Red, Bethesda).

It's this reason that Horizon: Zero Dawn remains off of my buy list. The world is beautiful and the concept is cool, but the same could be said about Assassin's Creed. Once you get past the world and concept of Assassin's Creed, you have a paper thin story, meaningless collectibles, copy and paste sidequests and never a good enough reason for the game to be open world at all. This is why when I see Horizon: Zero Dawn gameplay and it involves getting collectibles off the map and fighting the same enemies along the way, I feel the same boredom already setting in.

The difference between a good open world game and a bad one is the side elements receive just as much care as the main elements, and I'm not getting that vibe yet. The reason I'm loving the mission structure of Nioh is because it recognizes this dynamic, and smartly sidelines its side content to going back to areas later, therefore when you're exploring the area the first time you don't get distracted by every little thing you could do over here and over there.

When giving Assassin's Creed Black Flag a chance, I found myself stopping to grab every treasure just because. The items in the chests weren't special, the locations of the chests weren't puzzling, they just were there. But the main story was tailing missions and a series of tutorials for the meaningless side events, and I felt obligated to do this scattered busywork along the way because it was better than that. I stopped playing once I realized I was doing this.

It's like these games build themselves backwards. Building a world and the base gameplay, but then they're nearing their deadline and they leave it at that. In GTA V races and golfing and hunting don't feel like after thoughts and that's why its world feels so satisfyingly alive.

I've yet to see anything from Horizon: Zero Dawn that communicates it isn't yet another "Ubisoft open world". I really would love it to prove me wrong.

What do you think?

全 35 件のコメント
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]FindMeInRiften [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

You also hit on another trend I want to see stop. The MOUNTAIN of meaningless loot these games throw at you. Treasure chest in an underwater cave?! Two pairs of socks and a goblet. Literally every developer, from Bioware to CD Projekt Red to Bethesda is guilty of this. I'd rather get no loot and be excited about a truly worthwhile rare find than have to destroy or sell 99% of everything I pick up.

[–]Dingid_Forester [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

i'm just playing through TW3 right now, and i definitely have to agree with most of what you say. there is just waay too much loot in that game, after just a couple of days of playing the game you basically just stop even looking at what's in each chest and instead just "take all" then unload/sell stuff when your inventory gets full. for me the loot in TW3 feels much more meaningless than a game like skyrim for some reason. i also don't like the way that they do equipment upgrades in that game. i dislike that you have to basically craft a new item once the item isn't keeping up with your level (which happens very often) rather than simply upgrading the item like in dark souls for example.

i actually enjoyed looting much more in skyrim. i agree that there was still probably too much loot around, but i loved that there was always something you could find around the map, and pretty much nothing in skyrim is meaningless junk. almost everything can be used for crafting which i think is key if you're going to have that many items to loot. i also think that it's an awesome feature how you can pick up/ drop every item in the game. to me items seem much less interesting and meaningful if you can't use them or see them in the world.. but i still think they could tone down the number of items just a bit.. i'd rather see 1 or 2 meaningful items in a chest than 1-2 meaningful items plus an iron dagger and hide armor a every chest. variety is important in games like that though, they need a high quantity of items but also need to have a large variety and items need to be unique in their uses (it felt like TW3 had way too many different swords, but they all just basically had different names and no real noticeable difference except for stats). i enjoyed both TW3 and skyrim but they do have their flaws, loot systems could be improved in both games i think and i definitely prefer meaningful items of large quantities of relatively meaningless items.

[–]ApatheticStranger [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

You do raise some fair concerns, but it seems a little cold to throw a game under the bus when it hasn't been released yet. I'm going to wait until both Horizon and Zelda comes out before I pass any opinion that its been under the influence of Ubisoft. Now. On to your worries about the state of open world games. I would have to whole-heartily agree that a good open world has side elements that are just as consistent and engaging as the main elements. However, I think the largest problem with modern open world games is how soulless they are in nature. It feels developers are more keen on technological advances that push the envelope (BIGGER!, PRETTIER!, SO MUCH "VALUE"!), than taking what they have and perfecting it (while allowing some humanistic an thoughtful game design to take place). I swear the new tagline to every new open world game is "member skyrim!? Look how much bigger our game is than skyrim". Did I mention how important the word "value" and "content" is to the modern gamers who endorse these developers? I think the reasoning is (I'm still not sure if I understand it) the more hours you play on a product. The better the game is. I'm not sure how the idea that wasting your time is somehow value, but it is (apparently). I believe that this gaming philosophy was brought up (just a hypothesis) because of how gamers felt preyed upon by microtransactions, and day one DLC. Which then invokes some sort of feeling of satisfaction when the gamer stumbles across a game (Witcher 3) with lots of "content", and makes them feel that they bought something with quality that isn't cut up into nice chunks for easy money (or I could be false attributing the entirety of it through the use of Psychology). They feel an aversion to shorter (and linear) games because of their environment, so they jump for joy and are more tolerant to the problems of open world fiascos. If someone has a counter-argument, I would love it.

[–]OneDeafMute [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

First I just want to try and defend OP. I do agree that it's too early to openly judge a game that hasn't been released yet. But I think he is more dissatisfied with the genre as a whole and sees Horizon as the new representative of his concerns with open world games.

Second. I agree with you SO much on people equating value to number of hours. When both The Witcher 3 and Fallout 4 were released, they were the only games that reddit were talking about. People would always say things like "30 hours in, just left the starting area," "300 hours later and I finally finished." These kinds of statements are defaulted as praise and not criticism. I whole heartedly disagree with these statements as well. I prefer quality over quantity all the time. Now I do try and keep in mind that a lot of people can only buy 3 games a year due to budget restraints so they truly are looking for games that equate value to number of hours played. I buy, play and beat anywhere from 15-30 games a year of all shapes and sizes, as I have both the time and money to do so. So sometimes I forget passionate gamers aren't able to do the same. But I do believe that the "1 dollar=1 hour" model may water down the quality of the time spent on the game.

[–]na85 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The problem is that there are two genres: Actually-good open-world games, and ubisoft-alikes. That game with the parkour and the zombies and the nightmare things and the middle-eastern chick that becomes a zombler right at the end was a classic example of an ubisoft-alike: it's "open world" in the sense that yeah you can go fuck off and do whatever, but at the end of the day it's just an invisibly-walled-in place with POIs and fetch quests, and the main story takes you to all the POIs anyways.

[–]Quetzal42 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If you're talking about Dying Light, Dying Light is absolutely fantastic. In the end, a fetch quest isn't a problem if that fetch quest involves wonderful movement mechanics and fun, challenging combat.

[–]vryheid [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Maybe you'll like the Yakuza games then? They have that GTA-esque open world feeling but cram it down into a very small space, sacrificing the sheer amount of exploration in exchange for constantly giving the players interesting missions and side activities to do.

[–]xdownpourx [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I played Yakuza 0 for a while and there is a lot to like there (characters, story, side missions, mini-games) but man that combat is amazingly repetitive and boring. I tired to push through but every single fight (except boss fights) felt the same and just tedious as hell. But man they make some great mini games. I became a karaoke master and a pool master. Damn baseball game is stupid hard though

[–]lmaocarrots[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This was a problem when I tried Yakuza 4 back on PS3. I really liked the mood and narrative, but none of the gameplay was polished or compelling enough to hold up the game on its own. I feel like it had the ideas right, but not the time and the resources to make each of those ideas individually worthwhile.

[–]hacktivision [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There is a huge effort done on the robot fights and animations.

Otherwise it's pretty much a Tomb Raider/Uncharted clone (same climbing mechanics, same near death grey filter, 3rd person combat, etc.) with roaming robots and a semi-open world (there are invisible walls).

[–]DestroyedArkana [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The thing about Dark Souls is that its lineage is much more related to the original Legend of Zelda, conveniently Mark Brown just put out a video about that. It's an adventure game in some parts, and adventure games are more about exploring the world outside your characters. As opposed to a role playing game, which is more focused on your characters inside the world.

I think most western open world games take their lineage from GTA. Where you do have a linear mission structure, but it's surrounded by a sandbox that doesn't have much value other than messing around and wasting time. In fact these games are more linear than adventure games for their main story, you just use the open world as a hub like Mario 64 to go and access the main game levels.

Open worlds aren't inherently bad, especially when they focus on that exploration and adventure, rather than side objectives to pass the time and pad game length.

[–]Delta_Assault [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I feel like something that hasn't really been taken advantage of in open worlds is change. People talk about MMOs and how there's never any change in the world because you need to respawn monsters and items and accommodate for other players, but that's not a hindrance in a singleplayer open world campaign at all. So more change would be nice to see.

[–]FindMeInRiften [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I'm on the fence about H:ZD. While it looks beautiful and cool, it doesn't really capture my attention all that much. Running around with a future bow shooting robots looks neat, but it basically boils down to stuff I've done in countless other titles. I'll probably redbox it (like I did with FF:XV and RE: 7), but my purchase money is being saved for Mass Effect: Andromeda.

[–]Lost_and_Faded [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Do you know when the Origin Access demo for Andromeda is coming out?

[–]Delta_Assault [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm really curious to see just how good the bow mechanics are. I think the best bow shooting I've experienced to date has been in the Tomb Raider reboot (Haven't played Rise of the TR yet).

[–]hexalby [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Unfortunately I completely agree. Openo world today is just an added feature because market research determined it makes money. No gameplay is built around it, no sotry revolves aroud it. You just have a lot of space.

To make another example as much as I liked Dragon age Inquisition I hated the useless open space crammed into the game. That and other very irritanting things is why it's the worst of the three for me.

And the disappointment that was Fallout 4? Not even the famous enviroimental storytelling that Bethesda fans like to praise so much could save that game for me. Boring beyond belief, a lazy story and crippled mechanics. But the map was full of stuff so yay I guess.

Still haven't played Horizon Zero Dawn, but for what I saw rit's just another Ubisoft empty worldtm with the added bonus of having the creepiest facial animations I've seen this decade.

[–]Delta_Assault [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

DA Inquisition is a game that makes a fantastic impression in the first five to six hours. But man... slogging through that whole campaign for 60 hours... it got really apparent how shallow the whole thing was.

[–]Anon_Amous [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah absolutely I agree. Horizon is a game I will wait for a while to look into, but on the surface it doesn't feel like a game I'll appreciate THAT much based on what I've seen.

In contrast, I cannot begin to articulate how hyped I am for Breath of the Wild. The physics in particular are really intriguing to me.

[–]whitewater09 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

I've yet to see anything from Horizon: Zero Dawn that communicates it isn't yet another "Ubisoft open world".

I would read and watch spoiler-free reviews. Just a couple minutes of this should convince you there's more to the game than you think.

[–]FindMeInRiften [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

That dude is making some REALLY bold statements. Hmmm...I will admit I am more intruiged than I was.

[–]whitewater09 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I know, right? That whole video review discussion is worth watching btw.

[–]FindMeInRiften [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Part of me is hesitant because I've seen a lot of footage, and not once was I like "That looks way better than uncharted." And that dude is basically saying, "Outside of TLoU, this is the greatest 3rd person game ever". It smells of "I gots paid". But, I will admit I'm more interested. Cautiously.

[–]whitewater09 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You should watch the whole thing, then. He doesn't just say a couple super nice things; there's a whole 40-minute discussion between two people. Regardless, he doesn't have to be 100% right for the game to be worth your time. He isn't actually saying it's the greatest third person game of all time; but, if he were, there's still plenty of room between that and just another Ubisoft open-world game.

[–]YUIOP10 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Sorry, but I'm going to heavily disagree. I have watched a full leaked stream of gameplay, and it checks off every dislike in the OP about open world game flaws. What's worse is that it seems to be extremely unfinished and unpolished in terms of world physics and interaction, and also character animations. If OP is someone who's already disillusioned with the genre, then I cannot in good faith recommend him this game.

[–]YUIOP10 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I would tell you to definitely at least wait for a week after the game comes out. I have my own impressions after watching a full playthrough of the game, and it in my mind it is not a positive one. Yes, if I were bored and didn't want to play any other games, I wouldn't be above playing HZD. And if I were truly enamored with the idea of robot dinosaurs, then yes, I'd probably give it a good run. But I'm not, and it doesn't offer me anything outside of those two aspects.

Well, besides the whole "BEST GRAPHICS EVER IN GAMES" meme, which is just laughable.

[–]lmaocarrots[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I'm worried my reaction would be very similar. The gameplay looks like it'd become samey very very fast. Is this the impression you got? Is the writing as expositional as it seems it'd be?

[–]Nachtfischer [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I mean, just watch a couple gameplay videos. It's really nothing special. If you took away the spectacle, mainly the setting and graphics, nobody would be interested in playing this. It's just another fairly generic 3rd-person walk-around-a-world game. No gennuinely new gameplay system was devised here.

[–]lmaocarrots[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's my problem. There's limited climbing and shooting in a big open environment. How this is getting such incredible reviews as if it's the second coming of Jesus is confusing to me. Maybe you have to play it to get it, but I feel like I have played it.

[–]Delta_Assault [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I have no idea since I haven't been following Horizon at all, but... it's definitely a concern.

Skyrim and Arkham City for me were the last two open world games that really did a great job with their open worlds, and Shadows of Mordor and DA Inquisition ended up being ones that really bored me recently. So hopefully Horizon is more like the former and less like the latter.

[–]Quetzal42 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Assassin's Creed 2 through Revelations is among the absolute best story I've seen in gaming. It was ridiculously interesting and filled with wonderfully written characters. Say what you want about the gameplay (I absolutely loved all three and Black Flag) but the story was amazing. Not paper thin at all. Incredibly rich with incredible world building. Also the side content from 2 on was a lot of fun. I'd put Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood in particular down as one of the absolute best open world games ever made. A true tour de force of awesome gameplay, diverse mission design, wonderful challenge objectives, best of all time level story, etc. Brotherhood is damn near a 10 / 10 game to me. Ezio Auditore is also my pick for best written game character of all time.

Also Dark Souls is not an open world game. It uses a Metroid style world design.

I liked Black Flag more than GTA V or The Witcher 3. YMMV.

If my brother buys Horizon, I might play it. I'm a PC gamer though, so I'm not buying it. I don't have a PS4 and that won't change.

[–]lmaocarrots[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm glad you enjoy Assassin's Creed so much! I certainly had lots of fun with it up through Revelations, but can't help but think the series since has been treading water in the shallow end of the pool. As memorable as Ezio is, I think he's fairly one note. He's snarky but serious when he needs to be. As far as the other characters go I can't name any. Other than Mario because of the one joke they made. I think the writing is very expositional and the characters aren't dynamic enough to deliver a satisfying story ark. Also, Desmond is one of the worst protagonists of all time. My main complaint however was how Assassin's Creed fails to utilize its open world. It builds these marvelous worlds but the gameplay is never tied to them in a meaningful way. It's find stuff, kill stuff, follow stuff. No tailing quest in Assassin's Creed history has been exciting, so why Black Flag (the 6th entry in the series) opens with 5 of them I'll never understand!

Here's a video showing just how uninspired the gameplay can be!

https://youtu.be/UOgvbS4GkF0

Dark Souls has a persistent world that is open to explore. You're thinking of western open worlds, there's more than one kind!