全 24 件のコメント

[–]mauritia 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I have read trans threads on Metafilter where people seem truly baffled that the big bad TERFs don't see transwomen as women. To be as balanced as possible, I think it comes down to a fundamentally different understanding of what gender and womanhood are. To them, it's an abstract feeling or identity. To us, it's a material reality experienced since birth. They think we're privileged bigots since both we and the rest of society consider us women. We think they're privileged for having experienced the world as men.

I don't know how much convincing is possible when most trans activists are coming from such a different framework.

[–]womenhaveovaries 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (1子コメント)

To them, it's an abstract feeling or identity.

I would go further than that, (and yes I'm also one of those people who is completely amused by Metafilter's stance on transgenderism). It took them years to admit that sexism might actually exist and that street harassment isn't a compliment. They're still assholes when it comes to women's issues. But back to your quoted bit...

It's not merely an abstract feeling or identity to them, it's a way of misinterpreting reality -- and manipulating everyone else into misinterpreting reality as well -- so that they can get other people to give them what they want.

If femaleness and/or womanhood were just an abstract feeling to them and no more than that, then they would allow other people to have our own abstract feelings about the subject.

[–]szere[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there is that disconnect between reality for them precisely because it must be, as u/mauritia said, it's an abstract feeling. Because it's abstract to them it must not make sense to them for other people to think it's grounded in reality, but they have a stake in convincing others that they are women.

[–]DoubleXMarksTheSpot404 error gender not found 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They think they are women because from a very young age they felt this irresistible urge to be paid 70% of what men get. Or they saw their mom doing the washing up after dinner and thought, I could be doing that instead of sitting with my dad having an after dinner drink. Or they wanted to be interrupted and talked over every time they tried to express themselves in the workplace. Or they wanted to experience sexual harassment.

/s

[–]languidswanThe Big, Bad She-Wolf 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't think they would without the trans doctrine use that wording and mean it literally -- the whole "I feel like a woman" thing. It's a carefully crafted language construction that confuses "is" with what allegedly "ought to be". Essentially fake it until you make it. If you say it enough times, it will become true. They want to be women while being aware they're not, but since that's physically impossible they'll settle for the next best thing of essentially engaging into roleplay of one, taking into account the quality of this emotional experience depends on participation of outsiders as well. Now as for why they feel the need to do that, there are probably a couple of related as well as distinct reasons, the main one being that their personality as it is is more favorably seen through the lense of femininity rather than masculinity.

Basically, society attaches different value judgements on the same things depending on who is doing them. This is very obvious given the existence of many gender norms -- there are behaviors that you get rewarded for if you're female and that you get punished for if you're male. As one example, engaging into rituals that suggest you sexually objectify yourself or are trying to induce other people into sexually objectifying you is only considered acceptable (and even necessary) if you're female. A woman doing this "right" will perceive some sort of (toxic but still possibly reading positive) acknowledgement for it. A male will receive derision and mockery.

So to them it's not as simple as telling them "you can do everything women do", yes, it's physically possible for a man to put on makeup and leave the house as such, but the social penalties of it while you're male (or even simply a lack of social approval) is still present. They don't only want to perform femininity, they want to perform it and be applauded for it. They want to be perceived in such a way that the value judgement of their behavior ends up positive, and they see being seen "as women" as the obvious solution to it.

That's at the essence of it, the entire "this is my identity" and "I literally know I'm a woman" are just cliches meant to translate to their environment just how unwavering they are in this desire. They don't believe it in the literal sense themselves, it's a thing of telling people what they need to hear in order to manipulate them into proper behavior, that is treating MtTs "as the women that they really are". Though of course, with this becoming the party line probably more and more of them do end up believing this literally, they internalize this is - ought to be confusion and think their desire to be treated as female is some evidence of innate femaleness in their brain. But that again just makes it into a semantic argument, because other females aren't defined by this mysterious brain quality -- their problem is precisely that as much as they twist themselves into pretzels they know they're distinct from females, it just depresses them or pisses them off.

[–]szere[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is a very insightful comment. Thanks for your response.

[–]womenhaveovaries 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

you said that so perfectly, thank you.

[–]the_red_and_the_blac 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As someone who transitioned I have to say you nailed it with this comment

[–]trashid1176 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a really simple answer: trans women and trans men conflate feelings of femininity or masculinity with actually being the opposite sex.

Take note of Janet Mock being lost on this very issue when a cis female demonstrates to him that she can't explain what it feels like to be a woman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISsdSvJhniQ

Beneath this issue most likely lies some form of autism.

[–]Elle_Cielam i gregnant?? 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because the entire concept of a "woman" to them has nothing to do with the realities of female human beings. It's a word defined entirely through their own fetishized, outsider's perspective. Transwomen don't feel like/identify as women so much as they feel like/identify with a man's idea of what women are like.

[–]Dahna_Mahna 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To the question "what does it mean to feel like a woman?"

I thought about this quite a bit and came to two conclusions:

I feel like a woman when: 1. I am experiencing bodily symptoms or needs consistent with having female body parts (i.e. Menstruating, taking birth control, experiencing puberty/pregnancy/menopause)

  1. I am being socially classed as a woman, either by myself or others (i.e. Wearing female class attire, being sexually harassed or experiencing sexism in other forms, being limited or oppressed in word or action due to my female class)

I think of womanhood as the collective shared experience of the above; to varying degrees.

[–]sosososhocking 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Cargo cult mentality my friend. They have only ever experienced "womanhood" from the outside... to them womanhood means "skirt and lipstick" and of course all the wonderful male-serving stereotypes. It will never be more than a costume.

I think the hope is that if they put on the woman costume they will eventually be a woman.

[–]szere[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

to them womanhood means "skirt and lipstick"

Well, this would explain why they feel they are women once they have transitioned.

[–]Sexyblackterf 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Honestly I don't understand why people complicate the definitions of womanhood/manhood.

It's the same thing as sex. A woman is an adult human who was born with a vagina. A man is an adult human who was born with a penis.

I don't understand what identity or experience has to do with any of this. Do women have a shared experience? Yes of course, but why base the definition of womanhood on that? It's biological.

[–]PurpleAntifreezeProud TERF 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, to me womanhood is that very shared experience that you dismiss so easily. Womanhood is the sum of all the experiences that can be had by a female, which includes experiences common to all humans and excludes those experiences that can only be had by a biological male, like penis cancer.

[–]Sexyblackterf 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I didn't dismiss it at all, so please don't get snarky with me.

I realize that there is a shared experience of womanhood, but how does that actually make a woman? All women experience subjugation at the hands of men, but some women deal with ableism and some don't, some deal with classism, some deal with racism, some deal with other things, etc etc.

Why complicate the definition and leave holes for misogynists, libfems, and MtT to poke at, when it is much simpler and easier to have a biological basis?

Women are female humans who were BORN with vaginas and have progressed past childhood (being girls) into adults. Men are male humans who were BORN with penises and have progressed past childhood (being boys) into adults.

What happens later in life really doesn't change anything.

Also, if you refuse to speak to me in a respectful way I will not reply to you.

[–]11strangecharmlogica tolerantia fortitudine 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I realize that there is a shared experience of womanhood, but how does that actually make a woman? All women experience subjugation at the hands of men, but some women deal with ableism and some don't, some deal with classism, some deal with racism, some deal with other things, etc etc.

Even if, say, a subset of humanity relocated to another planet and set up a new society, and that society completely eliminated patriarchy, the women would still be women due to their physical sex, even if they were born into a society where there was no subjugation of women, even if conception, development, and birthing of people all occurred outside of the body in artificial wombs and every girl and woman took medication that prevented menstruation. Their bodies would still be of the female sex, even if they don't have the experiences of oppression or childbirth, and in the absence of the medication and machinery would still be the sex that can cultivate fetuses and give birth to them.

[–]szere[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because I don't like to confuse femininity with being a woman, and there are also women who are born without ovaries or lose breasts to mastectomies etc so on a bodily basis doesn't really cover it, imo.

Edit: I feel the distinction between gender and sex is important for the feminist movement so that's why I think gender needs to be defined separately, and my term for the gender associated with the female sex is womanhood. Hope that clarifies my earlier comment

[–]Sexyblackterf 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I understand that, but that's why I specifically said that a woman is an adult human who was born with a vagina.

Not necessarily ovaries. Not someone with reproductive capabilities. Not someone who has lost her breasts. But specifically someone born with a vagina.

I think we just have different views, but I understand what you're saying.

[–]Eclectic58Resistance is NOT futile 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Being a woman isn't a feeling at all to me - it's simply being aware of and accepting the biology of my body. That's all.

Feelings are not facts, anyway, and the facts of one's biology remain true and unchangeable, no matter how anyone "feels" about it.

It's all wishful, magical thinking on the part of trans people to believe that feeling as if they are female makes them female.

[–]bigdjork 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly I think a lot of MTFs are just mens rights activists in a dress. They think women have it easier. As in, they think being a sex object is a lot better/easier than being a productive member of society. When I have to sum up my position to people quickly, I usually just say "Look, no one becomes a woman so they can be an astronaut, or a nuclear physicist. Whereas women 'become' men to be taken seriously, men 'become' women to be taken less seriously."

[–]An80sChloe 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not all feel that they are women. Take this piece for example.

[–]szere[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks so much for this link! I haven't seen this perspective from trans women before. The Rachel Dolezale comparison has been going around in my head ever since I heard the story- i.e it's wrong for a person of privilege to appropriate an oppressed identity (even if they are insistent that that is their identity) when we talk about race, so why not gender?

If more people felt this way I think so much more progress could be made against gender oppression, for women and people of non-binary genders to be liberated, but instead, so much time is wasted in mainstream feminism and trans advocacy with people taking gender essentialist positions trying to force transwomen into women's spaces, rather than questioning why men's spaces have to be so exclusive in the first place. It's so frustrating to me.

[–]An80sChloe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Welcome! Indeed, very frustrating!