全 33 件のコメント

[–]wiseowl79 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Their opposition to transgender politics, pornography, and sex work comes from their vicious hatred of everything female.

Transgender politics, pornography and prostitution are not "female" things. In fact the one thing that they have in common is that they center and grant more power, influence, and gratification to males -- usually at the expense of females.

Frankly we don't have the luxury of picking and choosing the reasons men don't rape, traffic, and violate others. If it is because sky daddy would not approve, that is fine.

[–]Black_PhillipaDisgruntled Goat 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If sky daddy also thinks we're there to serve men submissively and don't deserve bodily autonomy, then it's kind of a problem.

[–]dokhtarevaqt[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Josh Duggar was part of a fundamentalist Christian community and cheated on his wife, molested his sisters, and had a porn addiction while also politically advocating against gay rights, abortion, and divorce because of his fundamentalist religious beliefs.

This is what I mean. We have the worst of secular patriarchy and the worst of religious patriarchy combined. Gee, maybe we could have a society both without fundamentalist religious oppression and sexual abuse of women?

[–]nuffsaid_nopomo 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well atheism never stopped my parents from being pro-porn, pro-pedophile crazies. It never stopped my dad from being a serial cheater. I think they were no more "enlightened" on women's rights than the average Mormon and maybe a bit less. I often fantasize that maybe they would have been less monstrous if we had been religious. Could the fear of God have kept them in line? Could it have stopped them from abusing myself and my siblings? Would the religious community have been more likely to step in and help some abused and neglected children than our look-the-other-way atheist community?

It's a dream I shed a lot of tears over. In the end, I suspect it would have gone the same way with or without religion.

[–]dokhtarevaqt[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Extremist religion does not stop men from violently abusing, raping, and even enslaving women. In fact, sometimes it justifies such actions.

ISIS has enslaved thousands of Yezidi women based on extremist variants of Islamic beliefs. Now they've kept those girls and women as their sex saves and rape them. Their God didn't stop them from raping and enslaving women - their version of God justified it.

Witch hunts were men torturing women to death in the name of religion because they wouldn't conform to gender roles and hence must be evil. Armies of Christians raped, tortured, and murdered thousands of Bosnian women. Muslim Empires used to capture women and enslave them to be used as concubines for males. Men in Afghanistan tortured and murdered a woman because they thought she had torn a Qur'an. Fundamentalist Mormon men have hordes of young, teenage wives to copulate with because they believe their God says to do this. A Rabbi near my area had a camera in the mikvah to spy on naked women.

You're right, thank God religion keeps men from raping, murdering, and even genociding women!

Religious men all over the world rape their wives, hit their wives and female family members, have sex and impregnate girls and teenagers, marry young girls and teens, throw acid on women, kill their female family members, stone women, sexually abuse female believers if they're in a position of religious authority, and will sometimes subject women to an abusive patriarchy while indulging in porn and prostitution themselves. It's incredibly naive to think religious men have women's best interests at heart or religion will stop the abuse of women because it often justifies or worsens it. And, now they believe that their God has divinely mandated society must be a brutal patriarchy where women are institutionally discriminated against because women are inferior as designed by God and rebellion against the mistreatment of women is now rebellion against God.

[–]wiseowl79 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Religion doesn't cause men to do all those things. Men cause religion to enable them to do those things. If some men interpret their religion as entreating them to view women as humans in themselves rather than as means to sexual ends to be purchased, I see no reason why we should stop them.

[–]dokhtarevaqt[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I object to religious men who are hardcore proponents of patriarchy and sexism and think women should be subjugated to men even if they're anti-porn.

If someone thinks their religion gives equal rights and respects women, then they're basically just another variant of feminists (and have nothing to do with people like Milo).

[–]vulvapeopleI am Terficus 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm going to be quite frank, your post is an example of the kind of "feels trump everything" attitude that has allowed trans issues to run roughshod over the fundamental rights of women.

"This hurts me, therefore everyone needs to change to accommodate my hurt" is everything that's wrong about transactivism. I'd argue that it's a major thing wrong with liberal activism in general. Objective facts can never be discussed because emotions are all that matter, and opposing viewpoints must be silenced lest someone gets their feelings hurt. An additional problem with boiling down all these complicated issues and activism down to subjective experiences and feelings is that these experiences and feelings aren't universal, not everyone has had the horrible experiences with conservatives and religious people that you have, speaking of:

When I was growing up, my father was deeply involved in Republican politics, he even ran for office a couple of times, and the Republicans I grew up knowing weren't the monsters most liberals assume. I'd say their greatest crime across the board was believing the just world fallacy, which very conveniently resulted in their being rich and successful while the majority of humans just happen to be not as deserving. These are the type of people who populate organizations like the Heritage Foundation, just FYI, since the Heritage Foundation is a mainstream conservative think tank, not Westboro Baptist.

So does my personal experience trump yours? Or can we agree that issues can be discussed without the kind of policing and silencing that's ruining liberalism?

[–]dokhtarevaqt[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

You're "running roughshod" over the fundamental rights of women in much worse ways by associating, supporting and defending misogynist males who want to take away women's rights and helping with their cause. You can't claim to care about the rights of women and support and defend males who want to trample on the rights of women. The things these people like Milo believe in and support are not figments of my imagination. Their writings are accesible online and their agenda is public. The fact these people hate women is well-known and an objective fact.

The Republican Party has launched constant assaults on women's rights, birth control, abortion, and gay rights and this is an objective fact.

[–]NPerez99PETTY UTERUS 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (3子コメント)

That fact doesn't mean that his words on a late night show, and the reaction to them as he was attacked by other panelists for stating that "women and little girls have a right to privacy", aren't interesting for this sub to discuss.

[–]dokhtarevaqt[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

He doesn't give a fuck about women and girls.

Women and girls to him are pawns he can use to advance his beliefs trans people are evil because they don't conform to gender-sex roles he believes are mandated by biology and society.

If he cared about women why wouldn't he be a feminist? Instead of being an anti-feminist that calls feminism cancer? Why wouldn't he support education for women instead of saying college makes women unlovable, undesirable to males, and fat? He thinks it's a woman's biological place in life to be attractive for men, subordinate to men, and sexually submissive to men.

[–]annieareyouokayannieI am feel erased when we are not about me? 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

None of this is relevant to whether or not we should discuss what he said. No-one's saying Milo is a great guy. Whether he made those comments cos he was paid to or having a psychotic break or simply trolling or whatever other reason, it is relevant to those of us who hold these positions that he voiced them in front of such a large audience. The public discussion around/response to his comments (which is what was actually linked here) is relevant. Deigning to talk about it is not condoning him as a person. We discuss every high-profile incident that brings attention to these issues.

[–]vulvapeopleI am Terficus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am? I don't associate with or support them. I take an interest in various sides of this debate for my own edification. Thanks for proving my point about the trend on the left of thought policing and punishing wrongthink. Too bad gender critical women also fall prey to this considering how this is being employed by the left to silence us.

[–]NPerez99PETTY UTERUS 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I read everything you wrote, but this bit stood out.

Both of these groups of people caused me enormous emotional harm in life.

I'm an atheist from a religious family. I declared myself a non-believer at the tender age of 5 and my mother, a second wave feminist, said "You can do and be anything you want in life", allowing me to skip what my siblings did, church, confirmation, baptism - the works. My family was friends with the priest, I've grown up sitting in his lap stealing the cookies when he was coming over for coffee. He has hilarious substitutions for swear words and gave very good life advice as I grew up. Religious people have always helped me, nurtured me, advised me and never harmed me. Conservative old ladies in my family have scoffed at my short hair, but helped me make "boys pants". I've argued with the priest why there weren't women priests and had him agree with me that if god calls, anyone can be a priest - or even pope. In short, I don't recognize what you are describing because my experience is the opposite.

So I'll continue to post anything I find that is going against the current clearly damaging trans narrative that "females can have penisis", because just like the odd one out in a religious family, I know that our gender critical view that recognises biological sex is in the minority. My mother allowed me to voice my opinions loud and clear under her roof, even if it would (and it did) shock her religious family and own sensibilities, so I learned to not censor my own brain in the real world. I'll be damned if I throw away that gift here.

[–]dokhtarevaqt[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I'm sorry, I think more women suffer from religion and religious fundamentalism than have wonderful, uplifting feminist experiences growing up. I love studying women in religion and have read lots of biographies and stories from women raised or involved in religious communities.

And many of them are negative. A Muslim woman marrying an abusive, sexist male who screams at her for explaining her hijab to her male sports coach. A woman who comes to believe her body is so inappropriate she adopts head-to-toe black veiling. A black baptist woman stifled by her church's sexism. An orthodox Jewish woman questioning the fact her religion calls her hair sexually enticing and nude.

My family is going to disown me one day because of their Christian beliefs gay people are sexual deviants. Then I will likely literally never be able to interact with them again. Being an atheist, converting to Judaism, becoming a Pagan, becoming Muslim, being anything other than literally a Protestant Christian will get me disowned forever. I'm playing a waiting game knowing inevitably if my entire family finds out about my lack of Christianity and homosexuality I never see them again.

[–]NPerez99PETTY UTERUS 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Like I said, I am an atheist, because I do recognize that religions (all of them) subjegate women. There's no need to convince me of that or that your experience with religion is bad.

Your argument boils down to one thing: don't post from X because Y. You are basically policing whose words we may listen to. When I was 5 I declared myself an atheist, but I may has well just declared myself a feminist then - nobody gets to police what I say, who I listen to, what I learn or what opinions I hold. And I will not police other women. I will post whatever source I find interesting and let the individuals of sub decide what they personally wish to discuss, upvote, or ignore.

[–]dokhtarevaqt[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

These people hate women. They think we're inferior human beings who deserve to subjugated to males and treated as inferior as a matter of biology and God's will. Our only positive value to them is in reproduction and sexual satisfaction for their phalluses.

They're horrible human beings harming women, radicalizing young men to hate women, and then having those young men harm women. Their beliefs are fundamentally incompatible with any brand of feminism in existence from womanism to Marxist feminism to Jewish feminism to liberal feminism.

Liberal feminists seem to suffer from an inability to define what is and what is not feminism. Religious fundamentalism is "empowering", "personal choice", and "cultural difference." Supporting and defending religious fundamentalists is not and will never be a valid form of feminism to me. Supporting women's oppression is incompatible with feminism. Certain things are not feminist and Milo, Donald Trump, and other right-wing males are not feminists.

[–]NPerez99PETTY UTERUS 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Of course they're not feminist, they're men. That goes without saying.

[–]dokhtarevaqt[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (6子コメント)

So why are you supporting men who, in addition to being men, are the worst of what the male sex has to offer?

[–]NPerez99PETTY UTERUS 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Why are you attacking a fellow woman for sharing information? Who gains from that?

[–]dokhtarevaqt[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

"Sharing information" is promoting and giving attention to the hateful views of radical misogynists.

[–]NPerez99PETTY UTERUS 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

So who gains from us being ignorant of what is said on television in front of millions of viewers?

[–]dokhtarevaqt[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

We do, because now we don't look like a bunch of hateful hypocrites willing to spit on our most fundamental values by supporting a man who hates feminism and feminists.

[–]Black_PhillipaDisgruntled Goat 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for posting this. Contemplating aligning ourselves with the religious right is like leaping into a bear pit because you're sick of getting bitten by next door's chihuahua. As much as I'm tired of trans bs, the religious right are so much worse. The right is where the messed up trans stuff comes from in the first place. If there wasn't so much pressure to conform, then men who want to wear dresses wouldn't tie themselves into such knots to be accepted and feel fine about attacking women to do so.

[–]Khem_kid 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know why you are getting so many negative responses to this post - everything you said is 100% spot on. I don't trust WoLF and their intentions one bit after this.

[–]dogniss_everdeen 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hey, I also hate-read subs like blue pill/red pill, causing harm to my self-esteem. GC feminism and books like Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine and Brainstorm by Rebecca Jordan-Young helped me develop confidence again.

[–]bisoubisoumathmath 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Brainstorm by Rebecca Jordan-Young

Hey! If you had to read either Brainstorm or Delusions of Gender first, which would you choose? I'm interested in reading Fine's work but Brainstorm looks like a good read as well.

[–]nuffsaid_nopomo 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I grew up atheist. My parents, atheists both, were horrible abusive nightmares. I can't convey to you the level of abuse and depravity they subjected their children to. I don't want to say too much because it's a unique experience and I don't want to get doxxed, but our community was not religious either.

Bad people are bad people. My own personal experience has convinced me that it is not religion.

We always look for a cause, some sort of corruption, that takes good people and makes them bad. That's what the religious community does (sin! The devil! Etc) and that's what the anti-religious community does (Christianity! Fundamentalism! Islam!)

[–]hasgirlbits 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

TBH what leaves me so incredulous about GC feminists siding with religious and conservative groups is that so many of us are lesbian and bisexual women. Like honestly, why are we working with and supporting people who not only think we should be destroyed, but are actively working towards our destruction?

I'm with you.

[–]11strangecharmlogica tolerantia fortitudine 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just because two groups agree on a thing and work on that thing together doesn't mean they are propping up that group in other ways or that radfems "align" themselves with conservative Christian ideology any more than the conservatives are "aligning" themselves with radical feminist ideology. I have worked with "queer" activists when we have had common cause, taking care to keep from entering a situation where they could hijack my efforts to their ends, and I have worked with conservatives. And giving a platform to a view (or God forbid, linking to it) is not the same as endorsement of that view - that's the kind of faulty reasoning that led to no-platforming feminist speakers.

[–]annieareyouokayannieI am feel erased when we are not about me? 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

We're not "siding" with them, sorry but that's just such a childish take to have on this situation. Do conservatives accuse other conservatives of "siding" with radical feminists on this issue, or is it only women who are criticised and divided along these lines?

[–]hasgirlbits 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you want to play it like that, why is it only women who are expected to be grown-up and play nicely with people who are in the press every other week arguing against their basic human rights? Do you have no dignity or what? "Oh, they agree with us, thank God someone does, never mind if they think gay people are abominations".

Like, is that really the best we can do?