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Is Switzerland as great as it sounds? (self.askswitzerland)

ysrdog が 投稿

I have lived in America all my life and I'm looking for a country that is more free. Switzerland sounds perfect. Is it really as good as it sounds? Are there any cons to moving there and trying to make my life there as an immigrant? I would likely renounce my US citizenship and eventually get Swiss citizenship.

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[–]travel_ali 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (5子コメント)

It is even better than it sounds, the Govt buys everyone a Toblerone each everyday.

[–]chickensh1t 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

We also get our weight in Emmemthaler at birth and a free Alphorn concert at our funeral.

[–]Lesland 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You must say "Swiss Cheese" instead of Emmentaler to be understood by most Americans.

[–]Formaggio_svizzero 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Tolberone

Tol

weak m8

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Very funny

[–]zwitschi 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I would likely renounce my US citizenship and eventually get Swiss citizenship.

OK, so slow down (really, it takes a while) and prepare for a bit of a process.

Find work and get a visa/work permit, learn one of the languages and stay 12 years (law changes to 10 years from 2018) to apply for citizenship

There's an extensive How-To Switzerland, maybe visit first as a tourist.

[–]ysrdog[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Thank you very much.

Is there a way to go to university in Switzerland if I don't speak German/French/Italian?

[–]zwitschi 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are always ways, most involve money...

Often, good knowledge of the language of instruction is a prerequisite. Most of the schools require a B1/B2 certification level of the respective language.

You might want to check the officially recognized universities directly for their specific requirements.

[–]as-well 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Undergrad is generally run in English, grad can be run in English. But then again, you might not like our version of politically incorrectness against immigrants who don't speak our language

[–]ysrdog[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I like all versions of political incorrectness

[–]as-well 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh boy. Better don't come because you're likely to be the butt end of the incorrectness, and your own will sit square with Swissies.

[–]yesat 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Taxes, mandatory healthcare, pension and unemployment insurance, gun controls, a lot of bureaucracy to be able to work here let alone even thinking of acquiring the citizenship.

Switzerland isn't Freedomland. It's political climate is on the left of the Democrats.

[–]ysrdog[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Gun control is pretty similar to the US. The difference is, I won't feel the need to CC in Switzerland since it is much safer.

Taxes are less than US. I'm fine with socialist aspects if war isn't the thing being funded.

Doesn't seem to be on the left to democrats, seems like a more American America

[–]isigily 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

You wouldn't be able to get a carry permit in Switzerland anyway.

I also think that you probably don't see Switzerland the way it really is. If you're actually a libertarian you won't like it here more than in the US.

[–]ysrdog[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Why don't you think so? It is a safe place, so I'm not worried about guns. In what other ways do you think it is less free/dare I say less libertarian

[–]isigily 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just some examples off the top of my head:

  • Strong government regulation, especially on the local level. Stuff like building codes, environmental codes, business hours, zoning laws, noise laws ... and so on.

  • Government mandated obligatory insurance.

  • The government also runs and owns several big companies.

    • They directly run: Die Post, SUVA and several insurances
    • They have a majority stake in 2 AGs: RUAG and AXPO
    • There are 2 AGs that have a special mandate in which they also have majority stakes: Swisscom and SBB

I'm sure there would be more points and people could go into more detail on the first point.

In general - rules, laws, and regulations are the norm not the exception.

[–]ysrdog[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, yeah, no country is a libertarian paradise, but no country is better than Switzerland from what I can see

Thanks for all of your help! I look forward to visiting Switzerland and hopefully one day be a citizen

[–]unlinkedUsername 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (45子コメント)

Why all U.S.A. are so obsessed about Switzerland?

I'm Italian and I would like to relocate from Dublin to Zurich too but mainly because I'm a rock climber and I'm from Milan but why on hell someone from the u.s.a. would like to move in Switzerland?

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (44子コメント)

Why wouldn't I? I'm an 18 year old that doesn't want to live in the US if possible. America gets in military conflicts all over the world, spies on its people, and is not a very safe place to live compared to Switzerland. I am a libertarian and it seems like a much more free place. Slightly lower taxes and less of a police state. I am looking to relocate eventually and switzerland seems like the best choice for what I'm looking for (decriminalized drugs, low taxes, safe, free)

[–]unlinkedUsername 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (22子コメント)

Netherlands has drugs, it's safe and legal prostitution.

[–]ysrdog[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (21子コメント)

And they steal the majority of your money. I have a gf/future wife and the only drug im really interested in is weed, I will grow the rest and the Swiss government will never know

[–]nuephelkystikon 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

How can I immigrate to Switzerland? I plan to bring more people and to break your laws. I also don't want to pay taxes and am from a low-education country. Thank you!

[–]ysrdog[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My girlfriend wouldn't be allowed in unless she stayed for 90 days only or found a job. How am I bringing more people in?

I'm fine with paying taxes, they are just lower in Switzerland.

How is America a low education country?

Sorry for breaking your laws of growing pot. I assumed I owned my own body and could do what I want with it but I guess people in Switzerland think the government owns your body too...

[–]unlinkedUsername 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I think Swiss people will not be very happy to have you in their country with that attitude. Go back to school, stop smoking weed and study why governments exist.

[–]ysrdog[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (9子コメント)

What attitude? The attitude of wanting to find a free place for my family? I'm sure they will understand

[–]meandyouandyouandme 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

You really should find out what a government is for.

[–]ysrdog[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's for stealing money and creating a monopoly over protection.

If you want to have a discussion about the role of government come debate me in /r/goldandblack

Otherwise, drop it, and either talk to me about Switzerland or don't talk to me at all.

[–]yesat 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A governement provides services that in other way wouldn't be available for the citizen of a country in order for a country to be itself. It contains protection, but also culture, education, public transport, healthcare,...

[–]unlinkedUsername 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

The attitude of seeing government as a thieve, the willingness to hide production of weed from the government as an example. The opposite attitude made Switzerland a so balanced country at least from the eyes of an Italian foreigners.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

If they are willing to put me in jail for growing, and I can't find it anywhere else, I don't have much of an option.

Considering routinely 70-80% of the people vote against socialist/increased government policies it seems that many people agree with me

[–]JustStayYourself 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

As a Dutch person now living in Switzerland, I have no clue what you're on about. Also not very clever to tell people that you're going to grow illegal drugs while you're there..

[–]ysrdog[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You know that nobody knows who I am on here in real life... pretty sure I'll be alright?

[–]JustStayYourself 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's not the point, the point is that nobody would want to help you while saying what you said. What makes you think people would happily help you in this thread while they know what you're planning to do? I would've thought that this was common knowledge really.

[–]ysrdog[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I had no idea people on Reddit of all places would be so against drugs. I guess I will try again and not mention anything about the reefer madness

[–]istealreceipts 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's called tax at source.

Also, expats from certain countries, including the US can take advantage of the 30% rule if they are hired/transferred for a job that has a skills shortage in the Netherlands. This means that only 70% of your gross salary is taxable, which is a fair chunk of change.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

What is the 30% rule?

[–]istealreceipts 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

30% of your gross salary is tax free for 10years, meaning that you overall tax liability is reduced on your gross salary annually. In real terms it reduces your annual tax from 35% to 20% annually.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow, that's amazing.

Thanks!

[–]nuephelkystikon 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

No no, we understand why you want to get out of that place. Everybody does and many people try.

The question is, why Switzerland? Couldn't you settle for something a bit more in your reach?

[–]ysrdog[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

How is it not in my reach?

[–]meandyouandyouandme 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because Switzerland is very expensive and has strict rules on immigration.

[–]ysrdog[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not necessarily looking to move tomorrow. I know it's expensive and I know the rules. I would rather live somewhere I'm truly happy than be rich in another country

[–]ysrdog[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Just looked in your post history... lol... an American fuck your girl? you spend a lot of time talking about Americans for somebody who supposedly hates it so much

[–]DoNotBeRude 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Whoa, there! Please watch your language, u/ysrdog.

[–]ysrdog[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I definitely thought this was a real person

[–]Xorondras 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

There are much more libertarian countries around than Switzerland. I'm pretty sure that our government asks and requires a lot more from us than the US government does from their citizens. Yes, it's quite safe and we don't get into armed conflicts, but don't mistake us for freedom loving people that would abolish the government at the first chance. We don't. Swiss are known to love a very structured lifestyle.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Every time there is a vote on a socialist policy it is voted down like 75%.

What do you think is a better libertarian country?

Switzerland really is the best

[–]yesat 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Watch the recent election. The Socialist just won a campaign to a change in the taxes against the rest of the political spectrum by 60%.

Pension modification is often shut down by the same number. The 75% refused texts are hard socialism ideas, like the 1:12 limit to managers salaries or the universal basic income. For which they knew they stand no chance.

Multiple regions have a socialist government, with some that were actually calling themselves communist.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So the taxes are about to go up?

Schwyz and Lug seem very classically liberal

[–]P1r4nha 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

What's your opinion on the ACA?

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

As a libertarian I prefer a private solution to healthcare. I've read about Switzerland's health care and it is not much more expensive (maybe cheaper after ACA) and it is a lot better than americas health care.. the downside is doctors don't get paid as much but that is ok.

I'm very impressed with Switzerlands taxes

[–]istealreceipts 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Mate, you'd be paying the equivalent of $700 a month for basic healthcare for a couple in Switzerland and more if you have kids. Basic healthcare is mandatory here, so no opting out.

Taxation is low here, but the higher cost of living means everything is expensive, we're talking about 40-50% more expensive in relative terms when compared to the US.

So when you look at salaries for similar roles in CH and US, take into account taxation and cost of living (unless you're in a low-paying job), and you'll find that you probably have less disposable income in CH and much less purchasing power.

Edit: you're probably still on your parent's insurance, so your don't understand the truly inflated cost of healthcare in the US. Private and unregulated insurance is the biggest scam in your country.

[–]brainwad 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Worth mentioning that $700/mo only buys you the high-deductible plans, exactly like the plans that are common in the US, except that preventative healthcare is not free like it is in the US.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Unregulated insurance????

Regulations are why our country is so expensive. You can't get health care across state lines and billions of other rules that only make it more expensive

[–]istealreceipts 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Those regs are imposed due to republican and insurance companies lobbying your government. Your country's healthcare has evolved into a bloated, money grabbing industry due to the unfettered nature of late-stage capitalism that the US is so fond of.

[–]ysrdog[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Hence why I want to get out. American will never change

[–]istealreceipts 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Make your mind up - you prefer private insurance, capitalism and libertarianism. Most of the shitty stuff in your country is an end-product of what you hold dear.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

We'll, since you insist on discussing politics.

Capitalism and libertarianism means no or little regulations. How is that anything like what the republicans did??

Private insurance means private companies. No regulations.

[–]P1r4nha 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Depends what you heard.

Swiss people are in general less open and friendly than Americans.. otherwise.. health care is even more expensive here, but at least we got it.

[–]nuephelkystikon 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Swiss people are in general less open and friendly than Americans..

Can confirm, fuck you.

[–]becks0815 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Can confirm, f*

Let me guess - you are from Zurich? You are too rude for any other town here.

[–]MaliqUnique 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Feel free to come over if you are ready to work 42 hours a week untill you are 65 :)

[–]HerrBircher 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haha, 65, that's a good one

[–]ysrdog[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What are you trying to say?

[–]lukee910 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (28子コメント)

We don't have trump (only his money) which is a huge plus.

Jokes aside, Switzerland is a country with a very advanced and stable democracy and economy. We don't have freedom in the sense of a small government (quite the opposite). We are a very rich country, so the government has the budget to do some good things.

Our state has quite a few public services that are under strict obligations. Our national TV for example rarely leans to a political side, they usually present a short description and two people from the respective sides when reporting on a political topic (of course they are not perfectly neutral, that's impossible).

An example of public schools: I am from a quite "poor" family, we barely scraped by having to ask the state for financial help. Even with this situation, I'm on my way to becoming a programmer and can freely select what education I want to get (we have alternatives to Universities) without having to worry about debts or finances as a K.O. criteria.

I'd argue that Switzerland has one of if not the only "real" democracies in the world, because citizens can directly vote to enact or block a law, most other countries don't have a direct way of saying their opinion, only via who they vote for.

TL;DR We have a direct democracy and are rich, so the government can do nice things. There isn't any big con to moving here, just as I don't see any con to moving to Austria for example.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

We might have trump as president but this sub is way more hostile to Americans than any Americans are to Europeans...

[–]lukee910 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Why do you mean hostile? We don't think very highly of the american freedom and democracy, if you mean that.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

By American freedom do you mean owning guns and smoking pot? I didn't think people generally had problems with this...

All of my comments are downvoted into the negatives and everybody is hostile towards me

[–]isigily 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

  • Smoking pot is a non issue. It has been decriminalized years ago.
  • When it comes to the gun question you have to understand where you are here. I'm assuming most people here and on /r/switzerland are left leaning. And if we'd only let the people here vote we would have way harsher gun control laws.

I think the hostility you're experiencing is mainly about your attitude while being ill informed about our country and how it works.

One example is the Swiss healthcare system. If i read your posts it seems to me that you don't really know how it works. Or you like something that isn't really libertarian.

Yes we do have private insurance companies. But those are heavily regulated. The mandatory basic insurance all companies need to offer is defined by the government and they are not allowed to make ANY profit off of it. This is the insurance that costs about ~300 CHF which is also what most people are insured with. It's actually similar to what ACA wanted to achieve with a couple of further steps taken.

We had cases where the insurance companies actually had to pay back millions to the people because they "accidentally" made a profit.

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[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I never said I liked anything about your healthcare, I just like that money is spent on things like welfare as opposed to the military (in America)

[–]lukee910 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I meant freedom with a hint of irony.

[–]ysrdog[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (20子コメント)

You government is smaller than America, "the land of the free"

[–]lukee910 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (19子コメント)

I wasn't talking about raw size, more of the relative size. The "small government" that Trump imagines has been a topic lately, in that kind of sense. Just because he'd mane it "small" wouldn't even remotely make it small in raw size.

[–]ysrdog[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Your government is less intrusive on life, liberty and property

[–]lukee910 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (12子コメント)

It's less intrusive in a NSA way, sure. We have a lot more regulations and a lot more institutions under direct control of the state, as well as events and organizations that are subsidized by the state.

[–]P1r4nha 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You can't just build a house here. You need professionals on every step that understand the building code and even then your neighbors can complain and the construction will be delayed by months.

In the US there are people who can build a house on their own.

If that's an example of freedom for you, the US is more free.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I was thinking that in rural areas, like america, there would be less of this?

Either way, I don't plan on building my own house

[–]brainwad 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

There are no real rural areas in Switzerland. There is either mountains, or villages every few k's.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You can't really build your own house in America without the government either, so that's fine.

Do most people have cars?

[–]becks0815 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mostly cows, in higher areas sheeps and goats are more common. The rest prefers travelling by train and/or skiers (at least in winter).

[–]becks0815 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think you are a bit naive. Switzerland might be "free" but free doesn't mean without laws. It's exactly the opposite. We have tons of laws, we follow them and all the neighbors are constantly watching if someone (=you) fails doing this. Then the pitch forks are pulled out and the person is shipped back from where he/seh came.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

What do you think I'm so naive about?

I take it you Swiss don't much like foreigners. Or don't like capitalists

[–]LittleRubber 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Totally different. Switzerland ist not free in the way you want it. If you don't follow the many laws and unwritten rules you will have a hard time, and there is no escape because the country is crowded.

[–]ysrdog[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How is it not free in the way I want? I realize it isn't a libertarian utopia but it's more free than the US

[–]Formaggio_svizzero -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, it isn't, we're full, stay away!

[–]cdnexpat_ch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll take some of your Formaggio please