全 13 件のコメント

[–]InOranAsElsewhereanarchist communist | veganarchist 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Good post!

One thing I wish you'd have touched on is the inherent absurdity of the NAP and private property when followed back historically. One inherent issue is that the taking of property from the collective and claiming it as solely one's own is an act of aggression.

In addition, what I've found maddening about debating with right "libertarians" is many who hold the ideology seem to lack any interest in taking the perspective of the other or challenging their own assumptions. It's a very hollow and dogmatic stance of "this is how things are, how dare you question that, you must just not know about basic economics" that shows a fundamental lack of critical thinking.

[–]Jayk_ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

One thing I wish you'd have touched on is the inherent absurdity of the NAP and private property when followed back historically. One inherent issue is that the taking of property from the collective and claiming it as solely one's own is an act of aggression.

In the interest of fairness, though, I don't think they try to use it that way. It's more an attempt at a code of ethics than a tool for historical examination. The real flaw is that they assume property is distributed fairly now, or that it would be a greater evil to redistribute it than to let it lie. If you could push a reset button and divide the world up equally between everyone, NAP might be reasonable, at least for a generation or two. Of course, that's ridiculously impossible, but the fundamental flaw is believing in a just world, moreso than in the NAP.

[–]voice-of-hermesanarchist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think it's more than just the initial conditions too, though. There's inheritance—which you allude to when you say, "for a generation or two," and then there's shit like forfeiture (whether through "public courts" or "private dispute settlement") and trade. Even pretending there are fair and equitable initial conditions, can it truly be justified that the community has absolutely zero say in what happens to a piece of property? We can't imagine a single context in which it would be tyrannical for an individual to claim absolute "sovereignty" over the fate of a piece of land with their name on it, for example? It's my experience that coming up with that kind of example leaves propertarians spluttering in search of highly contrived and artificial mechanisms by which the "free market" would resolve the matter (and never admit that these mechanisms in fact ultimately remove the "freedom" they claim to cherish, since they just assert that such solutions would be accepted "by rational participants" and therefore are sufficient systemic solutions).

[–]SnugglerificCrypto-anarchist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Which is why the NAP is self-defeating. If you take something like Indian removal, the propertarians have to either ignore such a thing happened or go into full genocide apologetics mode like Rand.

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, there are a few other directions I could have went but it was getting late. I might expand the essay and make it "modular" so that people can take the beginning and end and use whatever middle argument paragraphs they want, and bash libertarians espousing given points with it that way.

[–]SnugglerificCrypto-anarchist [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

That's a very charitable interpretation. My less charitable one is that right-libertarianism is the American bastard child of neo-liberalism propped up by corporate interests and eccentric millionaires. While neo-liberalism was an international project with a contingent of refugees and ex-pats from central Europe, most notably the Austrians centered around the Mont Pelerin Society, the American variant was more specifically crafted as a response to New Deal policies seeded by the Volker Fund. There is overlap between the cast of characters of course, as Volker poached Hayek from the British university system. This was in the broader context of business interests building networks of right-wing think tanks, propaganda mills, and pressure groups. (Philips-Fein's Invisible Hands is a good read on this.) All the big name outfits like Cato, Reason, Competitive Enterprise Institute, etc. are the products of corporate cash. This is where many of the blatant contradictions and denialism in the ideology arise from -- e.g., freedom of association is a fundamental right but unions are evil, distributed knowledge is more efficient but it's okay if corporations are run like top-down dictatorships, coercion is bad but it's okay as long as it stays in the private sector, etc. Mises cut to the heart of the matter and put it most succinctly when he wrote to Rand:

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the effort of men who are better than you.

https://library.mises.org/sites/default/files/21_4_3.pdf

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Eh, I tried to cover that a bit with this:

The second category, however, are those who know very well the implications of right-libertarian ideology and in fact cheer for them. They enjoy the fantasy of being part of a small class of elites exploiting and exercising their power over the masses through capitalist business, and inherently accept “liberty” as no more than the privilege of this elite.

Because it is true that a lot of their followers aren't actively evil but rather misguided. As you say, there's a ton of money and propaganda promoting them, in particular on campuses etc.

[–]Ryuutorak 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I think it's very telling that the Libertarian Party's public faces (officials) try extremely hard to distance themselves from the "right-wing" label, even though they're clearly right-wing.

I find it skeezy, like they know people think throwing more capitalism at shit isn't gonna help anyone, but they focus on the "Libertarian" (with a capital "L") to attract people who are too embarrassed of the Republican Party to be a part of it anymore.

They want their cake, and to eat it, too, which is a common American thing, but it's dangerously intoxicating bc it's so emotionally appealing, but has never actually been tried before.

Different isn't better. You can't overturn corporatism by just "freeing the market" up.

They want a new "first priniciples" movement bc they're sick of Party Thing 1 and Party Thing 2, so all they have to rely on are the archaic words of Cooler Dead White People Than Your Dead White People.

And from that perspective, it's likely to just perpetuate everything we currently hate about our own economy.

But they'll say "You had the choice!" (negative liberty's version of agency) while continuing to ignore the voices of anyone who isn't successful.

It's just an intellectualized, systematized version of the irrational bootstrap myth.

But, Ayn Rand is a woman, so they can token her. "This time, our Cool Old White Person is a woman, so we're more forward-thinking than those Republicans. Smoke some weed with me and talk about objective economic Facts and Figures, and together we can be a slightly more tolerable version of the Republican mainstream! Rationalism FTW!"

It's a very empty, socialization-averse, bonding-averse, men-are-islands ideology (objectivism) and it''s basically just going to make people more alienated and more hyper-competitive and status obsessed, and I'm assuming it will work hard once it gains power and money to police any social science that attempts to critique them.

The "smugness" liberals got to have during their reign as the culture vanguards will just pass on the smug Capital L "Libertarians" (who might actually function as neoconservatives or distributists), and they'll refuse to notice that they've erected their own ivory towers bc they're mostly text-based towers and they won't be able to actually see the gigantic sea of White people that make up most of their movement.

Most of their internet spaces will ostracize you if you even talk about intersectional critiques, which to me shows that they're already pathologically White-fragile.

They'll also devolve into all the "irrational" crap they accuse other people of, calling people like us "SJWs" even when we're trying to take the edge out of our movement.

It'll be a race to the bottom, but with more tattoos and piercings and marijuana.

 

It will, if anything, regiment social oppression structures, and be even better at victim-blaming bc "We made sure you had all the negative liberties you could, so I'm sure that means no one else is racist or sexist or anything! Rational people are never racist, and our economy is rational!!!"

And the beat goes on......

And you get ignorance! And you get ignorance! And we all get ignorance! hashtag Cthulu

[–]voice-of-hermesanarchist [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

But they'll say "You had the choice!" (negative liberty's version of agency) while continuing to ignore the voices of anyone who isn't successful.

Right. If I point a gun at your head, you still technically have a choice: do what I say, or die. Two options, and therefore "freedom." Obviously. ;-)

[–]SnugglerificCrypto-anarchist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Hobson's choice is best choice.

[–]Ryuutorak [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

"B-b-but that's the State, not the market! We have all the answers!" My favorite ressurected dead person of the week says so

[–]Prince_Kropotkinanarchist-dramatist[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Well in that case it isn't negative liberty because you're threatening someone. But suppose you just so happened to lack access to the means of production and were getting mighty hungry...

[–]voice-of-hermesanarchist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah. I was aiming at the implicit parallel there.

We could have fun with it, though. Say you own and live on a small parcel of land, and a rival businessman buys up parcels that surround yours. While you are sleeping, he builds heavy fortress walls to keep you "out of his land." It is, of course, total coincidence that those walls resemble a prison that instead keeps you locked up on your own land. He might even cut all communication and power lines crossing his land, and perhaps build a pretty decent Faraday cage into his enormously tall fortress walls. Let's not get tripped up on some kind of "socialist" argument about public right-of-way or anything, of course; such things should obviously not exist, as they constitute "theft." Where has the NAP been violated by our rival businessman? GO! ;-)