全 34 件のコメント

[–]TheUnspeakableHorrorStray Cat Struttin' 111 ポイント112 ポイント  (8子コメント)

The weirdest thing about Paliarulo's writing is that he can write. He did the Dark Brotherhood quest line in Oblivion, and that was fantastic. What happened since? I don't know. Maybe being in the lead writer's chair is just too much for him. Bump him over to being in charge of side quests, and let someone who can handle large overarching themes take over the top spot.

"Keep it Simple." (he adds "stupid" at the end so he can turn it into a K.I.S.S. acronym and pat himself on the back for how fucking brilliant and clever he is for thinking of that

He didn't come up with that. "Keep It Simple, Stupid" is an old programming maxim.

[–]Topher8903Vault Dweller 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Keep It Simple, Stupid is an old salesman term that has been around since before there were programmers.

[–]oit3cOderus is still my favorite ghoul 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

a quick googling suggests it was a term used by the U.S. Navy in 1960 to describe a design philoshophy. it was apparently coined by Kelly Johnson, lead engineer at lockheed skunk works at the time.

"The principle is best exemplified by the story of Johnson handing a team of design engineers a handful of tools, with the challenge that the jet aircraft they were designing must be repairable by an average mechanic in the field under combat conditions with only these tools. Hence, the "stupid" refers to the relationship between the way things break and the sophistication available to repair them."

[–]AFlyingNun[S] 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Actually, I'm gonna disagree with you, specifically because of that example. Here's the real bitch of it: Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion highlighted his skill as a quest designer, NOT a writer.

Dark Brotherhood was popular, but it was popular because the quests were fun and interactive. There were a number of ways to kill people and a number of alternatives available. It wasn't just a clearcut "do this and then this," but rather you could do some investigating, some looking around, and find several different methods of killing a target that was fun and interactive. With each job you could charge in and murder them, OR you could do the extra bit of thought and care, and you'd kill them without being seen while also getting that SWEET BONUS, where most of the quest rewards were nice, unique loot.

Now how about the storylines? "Herp derp kill this person." That was it. There was nothing deep or interesting about those stories, you just killed maybe ~8 people, then there was that purge because "btw there's a traitor," then you kill ~8 more people, then a climax where the traitor is found. By no means was it an exceptional storyline.

Yknow what DID do storytelling well? The Oblivion Thieves' Guild. It had foreshadowing, it had mystery, and when the climax comes and everything is wrapped up, it's all wrapped up in a way that has you saying "woah." It's stupidly unlikely you would've understood half the foreshadowing initially based on the knowledge you had simply because you didn't know what to look for, but NOW at the end, you do, and boy does it feel awesome, because the big mystery's solution was right in front of you the entire time. Perfectly executed storytelling. There's a rare few stories I wouldn't spoil (I think most stories can still be interesting even if you know the ending in advance), but Thieves' Guild is one of them. I vividly remember how awesome I thought the ending was when it happened.

If there's anything to promote Emil to, it's lead quest designer, NOT lead writer. I feel the studio itself made a mistake and showcased a failure in analytical thought when they promoted him to writer, and while there's still time to relocate him to quest design, my beef is I have no idea who wrote the Thieves' Guild for Oblivion, and I fear they no longer work there, going completely unrecognized.

[–]TheUnspeakableHorrorStray Cat Struttin' 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion highlighted his skill as a quest designer, NOT a writer.

I will concede this point.

"Herp derp kill this person."

Because that's what the Dark Brotherhood do? :P I get your point, though.

Yknow what DID do storytelling well? The Oblivion Thieves' Guild.

I will concede this point.

If there's anything to promote Emil to, it's lead quest designer, NOT lead writer.

Unfortunately, after digging through the credits of their various games, it seems that Bethesda lumps both of those into one position. Emil would need to be out of the top spot entirely- not necessarily a bad thing.

I have no idea who wrote the Thieves' Guild for Oblivion, and I fear they no longer work there,

I have no idea either, and digging around on the wikis hasn't turned up anything. Considering the writing in Bethesda's future games steadily declined, I think you may be right about them no longer being there.

[–]AFlyingNun[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Unfortunately, after digging through the credits of their various games, it seems that Bethesda lumps both of those into one position. Emil would need to be out of the top spot entirely- not necessarily a bad thing.

Not too surprising since branching choices and branching quest paths will go hand-in-hand, but what definitely would help is if the actual context of a branching quest went by an actual writer so they could dress it up some. I'm pretty sure characters and stories in New Vegas got passed around and shared for example, cause I know oftentimes Sawyer had a conceptual idea that was fully fleshed out by John Gonzalez, with Sawyer having thought up the main message or concept whilst Gonzalez was the one to make it happen via character design and all the fine details.

Unfortunately I honestly get the sense game developers on the whole still wish to view writers as "optional," and that programmers can suffice. I mean can anyone name a staffed writer that does NOT double as a coder or programmer in any active company? It's a real shame because I don't know many people that grow up thinking "I wanna be a novelist AND a programmer!" so of course we end up with companies just grabbing random programmer #4 and telling them to write something.

[–]TheUnspeakableHorrorStray Cat Struttin' 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I can think of a couple professional fantasy writers that did game writing. Jeff Grubb (Guild Wars 2) and R.A. Salvatore (Kingdoms of Amalur). Both D&D novelists, which I doubt is a coincidence.

Maybe that's the route BGS should take. Hire a pro writer for the genre of the game they're making. probably will never happen, but it's a nice thought.

[–]Dranx 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Both of them also made Halo books I'm pretty sure.

[–]GGAllinsMicroPenisI'm Todd Howard's Spirit Animal AMA 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Honestly you're only scratching the surface. There's so much negative shit to unpack in this talk it's daunting. I never tried, and hoped someone would eventually do it. Thanks for trying.

The overarching flow of the talk, like you correctly note, basically serves as a metaphor for the disjointedness of his method at large. "Throwing out design documents?" Posting pictures of spaghetti for a laugh (?). Barely hiding his contempt for the player destroying his great American novel which, if Fallout 4 serves as evidence, he didn't even write the first sentence of?

The main problem in his thought process --- both in his game writing and his presentation --- is it appears he's just trying to be entertaining. Which is like, I dunno, ok, sure, whatever, fine. But that in itself I think reveals his design philosophy (don't forget he was also the lead designer, not just lead writer). It appears he just doesn't take it too seriously. And whether he's just a carefree guy naturally or he regressed into that mindset because he was simply overwhelmed is irrelevant, but what ends up happening is his games overemphasize goofy lightheartedness at the expense of actually following through on his themes.

If we were going to try to put it in a nutshell, I think we'd have to say that he's not very hip. Video games have the opportunity to tell incredible stories to ever-growing audiences in a multi-billion dollar industry. If one knew this and were also somewhat sophisticated, they'd try to blow people's minds and really follow through on some core ideas.

Take your example about 'suspicion.' Not only is that not a good plot point, but he didn't even follow through on his bad plot point. He's bad at coming up with plot points and he's bad at following through on them. It's a double fucking whammy. I mean, even if he'd followed through with 'suspicion,' it would have been an improvement. Fallout 4 could have been an open world RPG where you were trying to figure out who's a synth and who isn't, and give it some impact and real in-game consequences. Can anyone remember a part of the game where that actually happened? No, you can't. Yeah a couple set pieces (the Diamond City shooting, the random encounter with two dudes who looked the same, when you first meet 10 year old Shaun). None of them had gravity or affected your levels of suspicion. At all. There wasn't any suspicion in Fallout 4 --- to anyone. And here you have the lead writer and designer literally saying outloud that Fallout 4 was about suspicion.

I just think the poor guy, who I'm sure is super talented in other ways, is way out of his fucking league. And Todd Howard's gonna have to grow a pair and demote his good friend, or, like you intimated, we're all doomed.

[–]AFlyingNun[S] 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly you're only scratching the surface.

Because posts have a character limit lolololol. I'm not joking, I know there's more, but could only say so much.

Two other great points is how he showed THE most pivotal creator in anime and said "you probably don't recognize this guy, he doesn't have a recognizeable face." REALLY? The asian dude with the distinguishable white beard and the trademark glasses? Dude I hate anime and even I recognize Miyazaki. And once again, I have NO IDEA why he included Miyazaki in the presentation. He mentions how Miyazaki got shit for saying "anime was a mistake," and...maybe this seems like reaching, but perhaps that bit isn't in there for us, it's for Emil. What I mean is, if Emil can look at Miyazaki and say "if this guy is the most famous and greatest creator of anime and he gets heavily criticized, then I shouldn't worry when I'm criticized," then that's surely comforting for Emil, right? Could that snippet be Emil "addressing critics" in a chopped up, poorly edited way? Who knows, cause Emil certainly didn't make any fucking point after bringing Miyazaki up.

Or more importantly how he compared the Skyrim quest to kill someone during a wedding to Game of Thrones' Red Wedding. THAT, perhaps, should've honestly been listed as one of my major points. To see Emil liken a forgettable Dark Brotherhood mission to the Red Wedding is a FAN-FUCKING-TASTIC example of how he puts stress on all the wrong elements. Red Wedding wasn't amazing because omg someone died at a wedding. Red Wedding was a big deal because major pivotal characters for the series got slaughtered en masse out of left field. It was a huge change in tone and direction for the story in a very dramatic and emotional manner. Skyrim's "equivalent" is some forgettable NPC character who held no importance prior to the announcement of the quest. It's legit just a drop in the bucket in regards to the Dark Brotherhood quests, no more distinguishable than the rest, yet Emil chooses to brag about it and make that comparison. Once again, he only recognizes tangible things or a visual act, but not the thought process that act might spark or the emotional response it might invoke, when those are faaaaaar more important.

[–]SirKlokkworkNo Gods, No Masters 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This might explain the amount of [SARCASM] in FO4 tho.

[–]rfriar 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love the post, but the unfortunate fact is Emil probably isn't going anywhere.

[–]bluebullbruce 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I have said it before and I will say it again, Voiced protagonists are a waste of time, because of the sheer amount of effort to voice all the lines and the limitations it puts on dialogue it waters down the dialogue options and breaks the immersion because whether I answer, yes, no, maybe or Hurr durr they all have the same conclusion. Leave the voiced protagonist stuff and give us more dialogue options!

[–]Fugdish 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I mean, not only is a silent protagonist cheaper and easier to do it actually draws and immerses the player into the game by having them read the lines out in their head. I blame Bioware and Mass Effect 1 for starting the trend of voiced protagonists in big RPG games.

[–]KaaelAve 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mass Effect made sense though because it was never an 'open world' RPG. You were always Shepard, you were always on the same path with minor variances depending on speech options

In Fallout though it IS an 'open' world yet the spoken dialogue railroads that significantly and forces you into certain boxes.

[–]_hardboy 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I feel like you're mis-characterising that video in your write up.

He didn't say Dragons was the concept for Skyrim, he said that it was superficially about Dragons but he goes on to say the story concept was more about a lone messiah character.

He didn't say he was scared of the boogyman. He made that comparison talking about a secretive Boston mobster who was hidden but always out there. It was the mobster that scared people at the time.

That whole 'write what you know' bit you criticise as him just saying 'stabbing people' he actually talked about how he was able the leverage the suspicion people had about that Boston mobster and work that into making the institute.

I can't watch the whole thing right now but based on what I've seen your mis-characterisations makes me suspicious of the rest of your write up. Other modern games have done story better but your conclusion about him where you basically call him an idiot does not at all seem warranted.

[–]AFlyingNun[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He didn't say Dragons was the concept for Skyrim, he said that it was superficially about Dragons but he goes on to say the story concept was more about a lone messiah character.

I covered this.

The issue is that....look, if you came to me and said you wanted to write a story about dragons, that does not neccesarily mean the story will automatically be bad. What's important is if you infuse the story with emotional impact or intellectual thought, or if it's just "herpderp I'm a dragon." That you describe it as "about dragons" could either be a poor explanation on your behalf that focuses on a simpler portion of the story instead of on it's core, OR indeed a sign you don't know how to write.

With Emil? We've seen the outcome, so we know it's the latter for a fact rather than the former. It's not just a poor explanation on his behalf, but perhaps a blatant sign he knows very little about writing.

"Lone Messiah" can indeed be a good concept if done correctly, but it wasn't done correctly. I equated "Messiah" as not too different from "hero" in concept, and "hero" is the focus of many comic book series', with varying results. Batman is often subject to critical acclaim simply because it explores heroics as a concept, and much of the stories focus more on what it means to be a hero or the inner conflicts one might face, rather than on how hard Batman punched that bad guy. Superman on the other hand often can suffer from being a Mary Sue, where he's just perfect and always saves the day and he can pelvic thrust at a meteor to defeat it, which can be very bland and dull. We tend to much prefer the former because it evokes thought and emotion from the reader whilst the latter may as well be a love letter detailing how much the author wants to give Superman a blowjob. Nothing about Skyrim's main quest encourages or explores thought, emotion or inner-conflict. You just learn to shout, run around killing dragons and save the day from the most bland Elder Scrolls antagonist the series has ever had. Dagoth Ur has a whole speech about how he was the one betrayed and how he would've stopped the Tribunal, Mankar Camoran states a theory about how Mehrunes Dagon's home realm is actually Tamriel, and then Alduin just goes "hurrdurr I'm a dragon."

That whole 'write what you know' bit you criticise as him just saying 'stabbing people' he actually talked about how he was able the leverage the suspicion people had about that Boston mobster and work that into making the institute.

How? That's the problem. He never explains how. He did work on a game about being a sneaky thief and stabbing people, and this experience helps him with the Boston Mobster concept...how? I covered this in my post: he makes claims, but never explains them.

I really don't see a mischaracterization here. I mean at one point you're criticizing me for saying he was scared of the boogeyman as a kid. No, not literally the boogeyman, but conceptually it's identical: he was afraid of a boogeyman-like figure that he knew nothing about, but thought it would come for him. It's an apt summary.

[–]yoavsnake[̲̅$̲̅(̲̅☃)̲̅$̲̅] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Someone should get people in Bethesda to actually read this.

[–]traceitalianWelcome Home 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It'll need a voiced protagonist to get Todd to pay attention.

[–]XiccarphMinutemen 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Many of the decisions made are not his call. they come from above and the he has to incorporate them regardless of how he feels and he cannot come out and say, "Hey Todd said it had to be done this way and it didn't work well but I had to go with it." Not saying this excuses everything in your criticism but you are putting things on him that are not under his control. The other thing is you are expecting Bethesda to have someone polished, urbane, and sophisticated as their lead writer, and Emil was clearly nervous speaking in front a crowd and did not come across as you expected. Someone like you want is probably not going to be writing for a game company, they would be doing novels or movies or the like and be 20 years older than Emil. in any case if you want change, write to Emil or Todd with your concerns and you might be surprised at the results. By posting your criticism here you have no chance of getting a response from them and I doubt many here will take on the job of providing a full rebuttal to your post for various reasons, but then you didn't really want one did you? you are just venting your frustrations, and a lot of people share some of them so you are playing to a sympathetic audience where as your target has his work out there for anyone to pick apart without knowing all the constraints he works under. just my thoughts.

[–]AFlyingNun[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I get where you're coming from, but would also argue based on what we've seen, it's difficult to absolve him of any guilt. I target Emil specifically not out of a desire to see him as a person fail or go under criticism, but rather he himself is great living proof that Bethesda has a couple problems with their current development team. And when I say "living proof," indeed I don't just mean Emil himself seems unqualified, but rather the fact that hire-ups both promoted him to this position and choose to keep him (Todd once praised Emil and called him a genius for writing the dragon language, though the dragon language is VERY unimportant and low on the priority list for the game) is a sign of more issues that expand past Emil himself.

Todd Howard is definitely another person deserving of criticism for example, it's just that it's easier to highlight the problem via Emil because Emil has a clear job and clear goals with that job. Todd's role as "project director" has a lot of responsibility and a lot of factors going into play that help him make the decisions he makes, so even if we could make a general statement that "Fallout 4 disappointed fans and the Project Director must hold some degree of responsibility," we cannot pinpoint what degree that is or what Todd could've done better.

With Emil? We can look at that video I linked and see some clear dissent between basic rules of good writing and how Emil chose to give the speech, as well as how he described and justified his own work.

I'm not meaning to just bash Emil, it's more that he is an absolutely perfect telltale system that Bethesda's ship has a few holes in it. In another post in the comments you'll see for example that I actually WOULD give Emil a shot as a quest designer, but he was not assigned to that position (or rather that position seems secondary to his position as lead writer). Would be more than happy to hear if Bethesda re-assigned him to script quests and provide options or steps, but so long as he sits there as "lead writer," I lack both faith in him and in any superiors that choose to keep him there.

I doubt many here will take on the job of providing a full rebuttal to your post for various reasons, but then you didn't really want one did you?

I don't see why not. I would welcome this. I think discussion can do a great job of highlighting strong points and weak points made.

[–]Zenphobia 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I have similar concerns about Bethesda storytelling, but am I the only one uncomfortable with going after one person with this kind of intensity?

[–]Webemperor 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Emil Pagliarulo is the lead writer of Fallout 4. In fact, he is literally the only person credited as a Writer. Who the hell should we go after?

[–]MrVonJoni 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're making the assumption that he was given full creative control over every detail of those game, that simply isn't his game development works.

[–]Zenphobia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is a difference between being critical of his work and attacking him personally. A lot of writers would be terrible at giving presentations on their work. Doing a frame by frame breakdown of it is not constructive, nor is trying to vilify him as a person.

[–]blindponeWelcome Home 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow that made my heart sink. I've been pretty critical of Beth post fo4 but I guess it seems nothing will change.

[–]Stalgrim 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"An army of lions led by a sheep".

[–]SigournNo Obsidian, No Ring-a-Ding-Ding 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel that his motto of "Keep It Simple, Stupid" doesn't make any sense.

The problem is not simplicity or complexity, but the logic involved. A simple story won't make any sense if there's no logic in it that leads you from point A to point B to point C, and so on.

Morrowind's main quest was considerably much more complex than Skyrim's. You had lots of steps throughout the main quest, everything was working towards the greater goal, and despite the embarrasingly huge amount of NPCs and quests in it, it was easy to follow and understand. Because you could divide it in pieces.

In Skyrim, on the other hand, "Go fetch this random horn to this place", only to find that for some reason it has been stolen by a Blade, so there goes the whole "prove yourself as a Dragonborn" matter... I really need to experience this game's story again to see how bad it actually was, since my last memories are "come join me to kill this Dragon that spawned in a grave" and "trap a Dragon in Whiterun". There's a missing space there that I can't remember for the life of me how it was supposed to go.

[–]DezBryantsMomNCR 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think it was his call to do the voiced protagonist. It's extremely unlikely and as such, he should not be held accountable for the failure that it is.

[–]TybrosionMohito 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bethesda storytelling has always been bad. There's a reason that New Vegas is by far the best story in fallout.

[–]Doctor__Apocalypse 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I honestly think Bethesda writers have daddy issues. Can't speak for TeS series but both F3 and F4 had some cringe writing when it came to family dialogue. It's also a shitty troupe with zero originality.

Was this guy responsible for the main quest lines?

[–]joelbooi 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jesus christ, let it go!

[–]underpressure221 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You should watch Casablanca. That's all I took from this.