全 48 件のコメント

[–]angels_fan 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (12子コメント)

The push against masculinity is really pushing against the idea that if you aren't these things, that you are somehow less of a man. "A real man does..."

Nobody is saying don't be these things, but we are pushing to say it's okay if you aren't these things.

Also, everything you listed is nothing that is inherently masculine, other than society has decreed it so. Women can and do excel in every one of these areas. So why call it masculine at all?

[–]thrashmanzac 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I feel like the same can be said about 'toxic masculinity', the same toxic traits can be shared by both genders. I for one welcome the discussion on positive masculinity, as I feel men are given less and less examples of positive traits to be proud of and aspire to.

[–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

If you don't offer any positive model to aspire to, then all we have left is beer-commercial masculinity, which isn't positive for anyone.

[–]angels_fan [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

But why do you have to couch it in masculinity at all?

Why can't it be, "Son, I would love for you to be a leader, an intellectual, etc"? Why couldn't you also say, "Daughter, I would love for you to be a leader, an intellectual, etc"?

I just don't see the value in labeling these things masculine and then teaching your son this is how to be masculine. Can't you just teach him that these are great things that all people aspire to and he should aspire to them as well?

[–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Why couldn't you...

Interesting - this is a recurrent theme. This is what I seem to hear a lot:

Statement: "Men should be encouraged to be X"

Rebuttal: "Well, why can't women be X?"

I think this misses the point. No one's saying women can't be X (a leader, an intellectual, brave, strong, whatever). What I'm focused on is outlining an aspirational model of positive masculinity that men and boys can aspire to and be proud of - and these are characteristics which I would encourage men to focus on. None of this is exclusive to women, they're just not my "target audience," so to speak.

[–]angels_fan [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

No, my argument wasn't "why can't women be X", it was why call those traits masculine at all? Why assign a gender to any of those traits? Can't you just teach your son to be an outstanding person without using masculinity at all?

That being said, I did change my mind given our current state of progress. Read my other post below.

[–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Saw that. That's cool. I would disagree about aspiring to a gender-less society - I think that's neither plausible nor desirable, but that's a matter of opinion. Suffice to say, we have to operate within the actual boundaries of the society we live in.

[–]angels_fan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I don't think it's viable to create a completely genderless society.

We are a sexually dimorphic species, which means that, as a population, we have males and females. Males are attracted to femininity. Females are attracted to masculinity. Too much of that is biological. (Outliers excluded, of course)

We are in the infancy of trying to figure out just which are biological and which are socially constructed. In my opinion, we've gone a bit too far into the "everything gendered is a social construct". Well.... a lot of these social constructs exist BECAUSE of biological differences. Trying to tear them down completely is an exercise in futility.

Others, however, are absolutely 100% social constructs. Why is pink a feminine color?? Why are dresses female? Why is makeup female only? There is absolutely no reason for this, except our society has decided it's the way it is.

[–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

So why call it masculine at all?

I suppose this can be said of anything, though, couldn't it? Of course women can be leaders, builders, protectors, intellectuals, etc too. But virtually all societies do and have chosen to assign certain characteristics as more associated with women or men, and these can be positive, constructive and aspirational points of pride for each.

I guess I just don't see the harm in emphasizing and celebrating the good stuff that can stereotypically characterize either gender, especially in lieu of all the bad stuff.

[–]yakityyakblah [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think there is some value in presenting masculine and feminine ideals as a gestalt of societies ideas about gender. The problem really comes into the rigidity of these models not as an aspiration one can have, but as a criteria that all people of a given gender are evaluated under. Especially when some of these characteristics are actually detrimental when treated as a requirement instead of an option. Or to maybe put it another way, when we view ourselves in terms of masculine or feminine it can be quite positive and help us form an identity. When the world views us in those terms and makes decisions about how we are treated based not in the merit of any singular trait, but in how they adhere to an idea of masculine or feminine that is very detrimental.

If someone naturally finds identity in masculinity in a positive self fulfilling way, there is really nothing wrong with that. I do reject the notion of gender being inherent to sex, or binary, or even static. But I personally have always identified very strongly with masculinity, it fits. I think a society where all aspects of gender are opt in but notions of gender may still exist is ideal. That isn't quite attainable in our current society anytime soon, but I think pushing towards gender as something you do more than something you are is a step in the right direction.

[–]Screap 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Because by trying to change something radically and suddenly, you end up with alienation and hate. By slowly implementing positive change, IE by promoting positive masculine ideals rather than pushing it all away, you will have a more receptive audience.

You're not wrong, labels on certain traits are only implemented by society, but we are all part of that society and distancing yourself and your thoughts from it doesn't really help.

Think of it as ideals that only give you a nudge in the right direction, rather than give you an unobtainable goal

[–]angels_fan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I can't disagree with anything you said here.

Sure, reaching for a completely non-gendered society is a great goal, but we are nowhere near that. So making steps that make sense in our current cultural eco-system is what we should be doing. And embracing positive masculinity seems like a great first step.

Consider my mind changed.

[–]Mitthrawnuruodo1337 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This. People don't seem to understand that changing gender roles messes with the gender identity of people who have internalized those roles. People seem to avoid this to try to avoid equating it to the trans issues where the term "gender identity" is more common, but it's a very important thing to keep in mind. Changing roles, even for the better, too quickly causes psychological threat to those people... So obviously they will push back.

[–]geekosopher 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So when I see all these arguments about whether gender even exists, and how to teach boys to be more sensitive or to stop acting like boys tend to act

I'm going to need some clarification.

What is it about encouraging boys to be more sensitive do you find negative?

And

What do you mean by "how boys tend to act?"

[–]offshoreshellcorp1 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What is it about encouraging boys to be more sensitive do you find negative?

When you generalize it to all boys, it comes off as if we're trying to socially engineer boys to a certain outcome of behavior. It seems more like compulsion than encouragement.

I think the idea behind these gender deconstruction initiatives is that we're supporting a plurality of expressions. We provide support for boys who are more sensitive, while also supporting boys who are more stoic and reserved.

The former, social engineering approach just comes off as hegemonic.

[–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What is it about encouraging boys to be more sensitive do you find negative?

I think boys can and should be taught how to handle their emotions, but like men. Men deal with their feelings differently than women (and have/experience different feelings to begin with), and there's nothing wrong with that. Thus far, though, a lot of the language and approaches seem to stem from the starting point that the "right way" for boys to process their feelings is to do so more like girls do.

Stephen Pinker had a great line once: It is said that there is a technical term for people who believe that little boys and little girls are born indistinguishable and are molded into their natures by parental socialization. The term is "childless."

In my experience, little boys tend to be more rambunctious, restless, aggressive and willing to test rules than little girls. This is, of course, a generalization, but one that I'm pretty comfortable with. Now, I think this is all great! But a lot of our modern schooling system, and the culture generally, is constantly telling little boys that they're bad for doing/feeling these things. There's a raging debate in child psychology circles about how much of the ADD/ADHD epidemic is just little boys being little boys (who are vastly overrepresented in medication for this stuff). To this point: there is a lot of Christina Hoff Sommers' work that I'd take strong issue with, but a lot of her writing on this topic is pretty persuasive too.

[–]Mokele33813 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (4子コメント)

are largely the product of millions of years of evolution

Trust me, that's not an argument you want to make. There are ~4500 species of mammal which give live birth and nurture their young, but there are over 80,000 species of Ichneumonoid wasp which paralyze their prey and lay their eggs inside it, so their larvae can eat the still living host from within. Several have symbiotic viruses which live only in the wasp genome, and are injected along with the eggs as a bio-weapon to disable the host immune system. And they are just a tiny fraction of the parasitoid and parasitic species surround us and, usually, inhabiting us.

Never use evolution as an argument for morality. Natural selection is an utterly amoral process which frequently produces innovations humans would recoil i horror from, and many of those horrors are far more successful than our feeble lineage.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]Mokele33813 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    The evolutionary traits of masculinity could hardly be said to be a negative overall.

    There's a lot of assumptions packed into that sentence, far too many to dissect one by one, so I'll hit some highlights:

    My point was that natural selection maximizes fitness, defined as gene copies created, with zero regard for human conceptions of morality, thus should not be used as evidence for something being "good" in the moral sense.

    Natural selection is good at creating exquisitely functional systems, but be aware that there are myriad ways in which it can fail to do so or be constrained from doing so. Just because a trait exists in an evolved system does not mean it is optimal, flawless, or even functional. The details of why can (and do) fill most evolutionary biology textbooks.

    It's also worth noting that traits are not necessarily "beneficial" or "detrimental" in and of themselves, but are often dependent upon environmental context (either physical environment or other organisms they interact with). Antibiotic resistance is beneficial to bacteria living in an environment with antibiotics, because the benefit outweighs the energetic cost, but once the antibiotic is gone, there's only the cost with no benefit. Thick fur is great insulation when it's cold, but when the climate changes and warms, it's a liability.

    Generally, I would avoid any sort of invocation of evolution to justify almost anything unless it's exceptionally rigorously studied, well-defined, and restricted to narrow applications. It's an exceedingly complex process which isn't really amenable to simple lessons.

    [–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I'm not making a moral argument. What I'm saying is that the sexes are complementary to one another - neither better/worse, but equally important, and meaningfully different. Ergo, the "gender is just a construct" thing doesn't resonate for me. Humans are not born as blank slates, and in general, I think it's perfectly reasonable that, in general, men and women are born with inherited psychological tendencies (which allows for individual differences).

    [–]Mitthrawnuruodo1337 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Totally peripheral, and I have no intention of debating you regardless (though I may ask follow ups), but your comment makes me curious as to what meta-ethical system you prefer to espouse. That is: what, if anything, justifies the ability to make moral statements.

    I do understand that typing out a coherent ethical system is tedious and time consuming, so if you prefer not to get into that, just let me know.

    [–]Terribledragon4Hire [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    OP good post, I myself am struggling with this as well.

    What I find is that the discussion around masculinity/femininity. There appears to be an attack on a portion of masculinity that has been coined as "toxic masculinity", but yet nothing is ever said about femininity. The appearance is that some of masculinity is bad, and everything about femininity is good.

    [–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I've noticed this too. Men are always the negative actors, and while I understand where that comes from, I reject it as a general rule.

    [–]wegsmijtaccount [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    and everything about femininity is good.

    I'd say that some stereotypical 'feminine qualities' are not considered good.

    Like nagging, being overly sensitive, jealous, mean, failure to handle criticism, not using direct language but 'hinting' at a problem,...

    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]kytai [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      I would take it to a more woman-friendly sub. Last time I visited it, TwoX was really toxic.

      [–]TheDarkShepard [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      A large reason for this is that feminism already had its big struggle to convince women that there just wasn't one box to fit into. Think of how more varied women are allowed to be compared to the Victorian era. The more toxic parts of "being lady like" are gone or on the way out. We want men to have the same freedom women have received over the past century

      [–]BigAngryDinosaur 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Congratulations on questioning the world around you and moving past the molds that others have tried to carve. Some people never make an attempt to do more than fit into a chosen role, community or ideology.

      First thing to point out, is there isn't really a huge push to make boys stop acting like boys. What there is, is a lot of thought being had from different people about what's actually beneficial to boys, to society and what "standards" we are adhering to that may be outdated or archaic modes of thought regarding what crosses a line between healthy and harmful. Some of these questions are sensible, some throw the baby boy out with the bathwater. Masculinity itself is not toxic, but taking anything too far certainly causes some kind of harm. On this sub we say this until we turn blue in the face, but a lot of people still don't see a distinction, and that's why we have a glossary that we hope clears up a little of this confusion and gives people a starting point to understanding what positive and negative traits of masculinity may encompass.

      But on a personal level, I would say that there is more to the question than if there's alternatives to two directions on a compass, and instead also imagine this intellectual journey takes place through time as well as space. By the time many people begin to question what they see and believe and start wondering if there are alternatives, they are also reaching a place in life where they may begin to discover that there is no such thing. There's no real model to follow to any kind of success, and the impressions that society and peers may form of you stop mattering so much.

      Coming out of a dysfunctional environment, I used to think a lot more about my views of gender, about what masculinity meant to me, and what my identity as a male meant. But now as a middle aged man, I notice that there is a shift in consciousness in myself and among many of my peers. We begin to focus a lot more on our own experience of life and readily discard any image we felt we were supposed to maintain. Assuming you're actually getting out of your comfort zone and experiencing some of the things that the internet can't teach you, you become far more comfortable just "being" a man who sometimes behaves and feels one way, and sometimes behaves and feels in a different way. You cry, you laugh, you feel things with greater passion and at the same time, take the musings of those who would generalize with a shovel full of salt and narrow your spotlight of attention on the things that matter to you the most.

      [–]aleatoric [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      The attempt to subvert traditional gender roles isn't--at least for most people--an attempt to ignore sex altogether. Of course men and women are different. Beyond different genitalia, we have different capacities for muscle growth, we have different hormone levels, we have different cultural histories, etc. Sexual dimorphism within species is a scientific fact. But it doesn't need to drive how we treat each other.

      As humans, we have a tendency to define things based on their differences. Those are the things we notice most because they stand out as a way to identify things. But the sexes have way more in common than they have differences. Write a personality description of someone you know, then swap the pronouns to the opposite gender. In almost all cases, it can make sense both ways.

      That leads me to a question. Why is positive masculinity important? I think it's a reasonable question. For me, I'm not sure I even think about it, or at least I try not to. I was raised on the show Star Trek: The Next Generation, and rewatching it lately, they rarely if ever focus on being a man versus being a woman. They focus on being human -- what are people capable of, and what are the positive/negative aspects of humanity? We need not teach boys how to be better boys. We need only teach boys how to be better humans.

      I think that's the kind of future I'd want to live in. I'm not saying that all references to sex/gender need to be removed and that we should have gender neutral pronouns and we should all wear androgynous clothing. We are still a species with two sexes, and I think some superficial differences are going to be relevant far into the future. But that's all they are: superficial. Wearing makeup is a superficial difference. Having a penis is a superficial difference. But these things aren't what should define us. We should be defined by how we live our lives and how we treat the people around us. We should be defined by our capacity for kindness and empathy. And we should all be treated with equality in our society.

      [–]Fala1 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

      I have some questions I want to ask you in return.

      When you talk about sexual dimorphism and gender difference, what exactly do you mean by that?
      In what ways do men and women exactly differ?

      Secondly, you say

      as leaders, builders, protectors, intellectuals and otherwise.

      As being male identities.
      However, do you believe women can also fit these roles? Can women be leaders, builders, protectors, intellectuals?

      Lastly,

      and how to teach boys to be more sensitive or to stop acting like boys tend to act, a part of me recoils. I just can't identify with that at all, any more than I can with the toxicity of Red Pill.

      May I ask how you personally feel about emotional expression?

      [–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

      Touched on all of this in an above comment. I think it's clear that the basic biological differences between men and women extend well beyond just our genitals. Certain behaviors and characteristics can certainly describe women as well as men. Emotional expression is great, but I think men feel more comfortable and natural doing it one way, and women another (again, in general).

      [–]angels_fan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      I think men feel more comfortable and natural doing it one way

      Agreed. Women tend to cry. Men tend to get angry.

      So, instead of teaching men to have healthy anger, we teach them to suppress their anger (because it scares women) and cry instead.

      [–]Fala1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      I think it's clear that the basic biological differences between men and women extend well beyond just our genitals. Certain behaviors and characteristics can certainly describe women as well as men.

      I understand what you are trying to say, but it is really important you are specific about these things. There are a lot of misconceptions about this, and in the worst cases it's being used to defend sexism.
      Furthermore, in reality all of our behavior is modified by our environment to some extent. It's so conflated we really aren't sure how much biology plays a role and how much is just environmental factors.

      I could sum it up by saying that there are very little difference between male and female brains. And that there is almost nothing that men or women couldn't do that the other sex/gender can.

      Moreover, variance between groups is very large. If you for instance take the idea that testosterone makes men less likely to cry, you might say that crying is therefore more feminine. However within the group of men, men vary a lot with regards to their levels of testosterone. Even more so, so do women. A man with very little testosterone might then actually have lower levels than a woman, and be more likely to cry. This however doesn't make this person any less of a man.
      Some women have higher muscle mass than some guys. This doesn't make those guys less manly.

      This is important to make explicit.

      You refer to another comment you made, I assume it is this one:

      I suppose this can be said of anything, though, couldn't it? Of course women can be leaders, builders, protectors, intellectuals, etc too. But virtually all societies do and have chosen to assign certain characteristics as more associated with women or men, and these can be positive, constructive and aspirational points of pride for each.
      I guess I just don't see the harm in emphasizing and celebrating the good stuff that can stereotypically characterize either gender, especially in lieu of all the bad stuff.

      This is an important point. When somebody says: "Y is for men, and X is for women", they implicitly also say "X is not for men, and Y is not for women". To pride men on being leaders also holds an implicit assumption that women aren't really leaders. Because if women would be, men wouldn't specifically be praised for it because it would be a genderless thing.

      And that also forms the danger of prescribing various behaviors or jobs to a gender. To say something is for men, makes it automatically less so for women. And vice versa.

      This is where my first point comes in again. There are actually very few things that men or women cannot do. For instance, research found no difference between male or female leadership effectiveness. If anything, women might actually be slightly better leaders because they engage more in transformational leadership.
      So then why should leadership remain a point of pride for just men?

      If there are barely things that any gender cannot do, why do we insist on encouraging some genders to do it, but not the other one?
      Wouldn't it be far better to just encourage a person to do it regardless of gender? Their success is determined by their personality and determination, not what's between their legs (or what they identify as).

      The harm you speak of is there, it's kind of hidden though, but it's there.
      For instance the idea that women are the caretakers has spread throughout our society. And now when men want to take up that role, they are faced with weird reactions, or even ridicule. Male nurses can get ridiculed, female scientists might be constantly questioned by their environment "why don't you choose x instead?".
      Even worse, it causes implicit biases towards genders. For instance, some studies find that women are less likely to be promoted (example).

      I guess as long as it doesn't affect you it might not seem like a big deal. But if you're a guy that really wants to be a nurse, or a girl that aspires to work at NASA, facing those social norms at every step of the way can be a real pain in the ass.
      If you're a women who gets discriminated against in the workplace, or if you're a guy that gets ridiculed for being emotional, these things get harmful.

      There are also other gender norms that have harmful effects. Men being taught not to cry is an important one. Even if men cry less, and tend to prefer other reactions, it is still incredibly harmful to teach them not to cry. Crying is an important reaction of the body to relieve stress and emotion. Furthermore men aren't taught to work with their emotions, instead they are taught to just put them away. Psychologically, this is one the worst things you can do with your emotions.
      So some ideas what it means to be a man (or a woman) simply just need to go for the sake of our mental health. It's not necessarily about forcing men to do this. It's about stopping to teach them NOT to do it, to ridicule them for it. So that they may have the option to if they need it.
      I've said this in a similar way in the past; we as humans are born with various coping strategies. But then we decide that women get some of them, and men some other ones. Why? We should all be able to have every coping mechanism available to us as humans. If you want to punch it out on a punching bag, do it. If you want to cry it out, do it. If you want to write about it, do it. If you want to talk about it with your friends, do it.

      [–]Personage1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      The issue is the idea of telling people they should do something based on their sex. There are plenty of positive traditionally masculine traits, but the idea that they should be pushed on only men is silly. The same goes for traditionally feminine traits.

      You listed off a set of what you see as masculine traits: "leaders, builders, protectors, intellectuals and otherwise." Why can women not have those traits? If women can, why would we focus on those traits being "masculine" outside of an arbitrary idea of "should?"

      [–]lukeyj_gtfc [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

      I've found No more mr nice guy by dr Robert glover paints a really positive view of what masculinity is without the negativity of RedPill.

      [–]1ClassyMotherfucker [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

      I just want to point out that sex and gender are different things. They are frequently used interchangably in conversation but they are not the same. Sex refers to the physical differences between men and women -- different chromosomes (XX vs XY) that determine 'male' vs 'female' of our species.

      Gender is a social construct. Gender are the 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits and notions that our society has developed over time. These are learned, not biological. Things like clothing, most behaviors, and biases and assumptions about the sexes make up gender.

      For instance, someone who has a sex of 'male' can express the female gender by wearing feminine clothes or acting in culturally-defined feminine ways. And vice versa.

      Think about the different ways people act in different cultures. If a behavior is socially determined, it's gender. If it's biological, it's sex.

      I'm probably getting something about this wrong somewhere so I invite the experts to correct me, but I wanted to point this out as it's critically important to understand the differences between sex and gender when you are critiquing gender roles.

      Edit: Wikipedia actually has a really great article on this topic.

      [–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

      Gender is a social construct

      Eh, I only halfway agree about this. Just because gender expression is culturally informed doesn't mean that the whole idea of gender itself is artificial. Virtually every society on earth since time immemorial has two genders that are defined differently and show remarkably consistent themes for each. (The handful of examples of tiny multi-gendered or androgynous societies are mostly exceptions that prove the rule.)

      [–]1ClassyMotherfucker [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

      exceptions that prove the rule

      What does this mean? I would think an exception disproves the rule.

      [–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

      [–]1ClassyMotherfucker [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

      Ok, so you're trying to say that the existence of some societies without gender proves that gender is biological? That still doesn't make sense to me. If gender is biological and not cultural (or artificial), then it should exist in every society, not just some.

      [–]ShiveringPines[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      The point is that just because you can find a tiny number of counterexamples of a thing does not invalidate a general rule that can admit of exceptions.

      [–]1ClassyMotherfucker [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Yes, but you're trying to argue that gender is part of biologically being human. Unless you're trying to argue that the absence of gender in these societies is somehow genetic?

      [–]angels_fan [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

      These are learned, not biological.

      I disagree.

      SOME things are learned. Some are absolutely biological.

      [–]1ClassyMotherfucker [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      I said "Things like clothing, most behaviors, and biases and assumptions about the sexes make up gender."

      What things are you talking about? I made sure to say only "most" behaviors are gender because I know some of them are biological. Clothing and biases are definitely learned, don't you agree?

      [–]termcap [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      So when I see all these arguments about whether gender even exists, and how to teach boys to be more sensitive or to stop acting like boys tend to act, a part of me recoils

      I'm not sure how one follows from the other. Broadly speaking, I don't think that gender exists*. But that doesn't entail taking any position on how we should teach people how to act. It does suggest that we should allow people to be however they want to be, however, which is a bit different.

      I also struggle a bit with the idea of positive masculinity. I think it is good for boys to have good role models, but I don't see why role models or aspirational qualities would be gendered.

      * which is to say, I don't think there any characteristics found in men that can't be found in women, and vice versa. And if gender terms don't identify a set of characteristics, I don't understand what use they have (other than talking about how the concept of gender influences people's thinking).