全 85 件のコメント

[–]trianglecrisps 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree with other posters who mention individualism and the "self esteem" generation.

Also, as a political phenomenon, I think it arises from the fact that real political change is very difficult to achieve, and the problems of today are so immense that most leftists have given up on tackling the big questions. Global capitalism, the mass media and its propaganda, governments with their heat-seeking missiles and high-tech police forces - fighting these things as a citizen is pretty much impossible. When you look at something like the french revolution, and other movements throughout history, the actual logistics wouldn't be possible to do in today's world.

So instead of focusing on the hard stuff, lefty-inclined types focus on the easy stuff, like language and representation and all the other snowflakisms.

[–]regressivebs 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This.

This is my first "This." ever, that's how much I agree with you. There's no anti-war movement in the US. How fucking crazy is that? But a bunch of rich kids think they're revolutionary because they fuck a lot of people. Rich people have almost always had a right to hedonism. It doesn't make it bad, but sex positivity and special pronouns aren't going to help people killed in drone attacks.

[–]boutros_gadfly 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've wondered if the ever present gaze of social media has just bred a generation dense with shallow narcissists, so no real action is happening over and above that which is visible... an impression of action instead of action for action's sake, kind of thing.

[–]transfasc_modmod of r/transfascism 54 ポイント55 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Neoliberalization of the university system. An answer conservatives won't want to hear. The root cause wasn't the extreme left, it was the corporate Right.

When you run a university like a corporation, what happens? They become increasingly litigation and conflict shy. Hence: safe spaces and no contradiction allowed to students no matter how dumb or extreme they get.

This is poison to education, because going against received notions is necessarily painful and messy.

This podcast lays it all out.

https://shadowproof.com/2015/09/27/podcast-university-inc-the-policing-of-speech-on-american-campuses/

[–]SagaciousUmbrella 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Good point -- if you read academic blogs and forums, you can find all kinds of horror stories about faculty members being pressured by their administration to cave to all sorts of ridiculous demands from their students (and the helicopter parents of those students), based on a "customer is always right" sort of mentality. For instance, that coursework that's late, or not up to par, shouldn't be penalized, because the professor's job is to "promote student success". Or, a student plagiarized some work, but really it was the professor's fault, because if the student felt so desperate that they had to plagiarize, then clearly the professor didn't do a good enough job of teaching them the material! So, in effect, universities turn into places where people are spending tons of money and fighting for their right NOT to be educated.

[–]NoLadyBrain 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

universities turn into places where people are spending tons of money and fighting for their right NOT to be educated

This is a great way to say it. A colleague once remarked that education is the one thing people pay for but for which people don't actually want to get their money's worth (by not attending classes, not doing assignments, not studying, etc.).

[–]SagaciousUmbrella 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or, even worse, they're under the unfortunate misapprehension that "getting their money's worth" = getting a passing grade or a diploma, regardless of how much work they put in.

[–]gcgayman 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's the NYTimes article that inspired that podcast.

https://nytimes.com/2015/09/13/magazine/why-we-should-fear-university-inc.html

It made an interesting point about Title IX and corporate sexual harassment policies.

But corporate entities serve corporate interests, not those of the individuals within them, and so these efforts are often designed to spare the institutions from legal liability rather than protect the individuals who would be harmed by sexual harassment. Indeed, this is the very lifeblood of corporatism: creating systems and procedures that sacrifice the needs of humans to the needs of institutions.

[–]suburbansoulgirl#000000+XX[S] 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought that the roots of this culture came from academia, but never thought of it from that angle. Thanks for sharing this.

[–]williamwilliamitwasI Identify As A Misanthropic Turtle 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I believe it is definitely tied to our current version of capitalism. If everyone is special and unique, well that requires you to purchase plenty of crap to differentiate yourself and show how awesome and unlike other people you are.

[–]TheNewGarry2 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

As many pointed out, I don't think students being extreme lefties is anything new, but wanting to get school admins involved is. It's also way too convenient given the goals of neoliberal universities. Anyway- very important work on this topic that addresses this, this is what made me consider this. This got shared already here but I can't emphasize this enough http://shadowproof.com/2015/09/27/podcast-university-inc-the-policing-of-speech-on-american-campuses/

About the Berkeley protests- in retrospect I don't think Bob Reich's theory that the black bloc guys were collaborating with Trump is completely, 100% implausible. http://truthdig.com/report/item/a_yiannopoulos_bannon_trump_plot_to_control_american_universities_20170205

Given that this is a feminist sub some of the occasional blaming parents in the face of massive structural inequities seems kind of odd to me.

[–]suburbansoulgirl#000000+XX[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for the linkage.

And yeah, it definitely not new, but the internet accelerates it.

[–]TheNewGarry2 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

One final thing

K, but everyone will have a different story about how much they remember participation trophies FFS. This kind of thing without solid data can only build sweeping, false generalizations and is besides the point. Personal anecdotes ultimately prove very little. Furthermore they are traditionally used to serve reactionary and/or neoliberal/conservative purposes. For example, Paul Ryan's manipulative story about the kid wanting his lunch in a paper bag http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/paul-ryan-free-lunches-make-kids-soulless.html

Very important --> http://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/12/the-personal-and-the-political/

Any political radical should perhaps look at underlying structural causes before personal stories. Eg- data and numbers. Doing otherwise will backfire hard

[–]TOMTREEWELL 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

When I was a college student protesting everything, I sure wasn't looking for some authority figure to make it all better. Don't need no stinkin' badges, clipboards, name tags.

[–]georgiaokeefesgrottoAFABulousTransWomanFish 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think the control by trump of the 'black bloc' is terribly implausible at all. Back during occupy, I marched several times and we were often accompanied by young black bloc types who would do things like block traffic or commit minor vandalisms. What struck me most was that the kids doing this were, well, kids, but they almost always had a charismatic 20-something leading/egging them on. Given the history of cointelpro and other infiltration of protest movements by government, I could see how the possibility of agitators advocating violence would be quite possible and pretty much undetected by groups that are young, naive, etc.

[–]unicornliberationmake america terf again 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (9子コメント)

the other posters summed up pretty well why this type of culture developed. for me, it all started with yourfaveisproblematic.tumblr.com (the sjw culture was still evolving at the time - it was only a year before that blog that ppl started discussing gender & race on tumblr), from then on 'problematic' became a term that was widely used on tumblr. most of the talk was about reverce racism, cultural appropration, basic feminism. then somehow things like being genderfluid and all that shit started slipping on the site. i assume that since most of the users were priviliged white middle-class americans/westerners, labeling yourself as 'genderfluid', 'trans', 'demigirl', etc was a way to stand out and seem special and oppressed, too. something i've found interesting is that most of these people struggle with mental illness (mostly self-diagnoses, but often you'll find people listing about 15+ illnesses), which makes the community quite toxic (saying this as someone who also struggles with mental health). people now even have whole pages where they write down their priviliges and their identities. oppression olympics, ya know. 'trigger warnings' were being used by women who have been raped, now a trigger warning can mean everything that makes you feel a little uncomfortable. it's sick that this type of thinking is seeping into mainstream media (buzzfeed being the most vocal media- i have no idea why i still visit the damn site).

meanwhile, here in eastern europe we're just laughing and making fun of the fact that you can label yourself 'they'. (:

ps. i've also noticed that A LOT of americans are unhappy and dissatisfied with their lives, even while being more priviliged than most of the world and having more resources. so there's that. i think that's a factor, too.

[–]therurublog 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think people like to claim victimhood status because then they don't have to face the fact that they live in and benefit from racist/sexist systems. As a man maybe you don't feel as much the sting that you benefit from women's oppression as a class if you claim to be "genderfluid" - everyone knows genderfluid individuals are constantly discriminated against! How can a genderfluid person also be part of an oppressor class?

[–]qwertypoiuytre 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this frequently - there was just the article posted about the white, ex-military MtT who had accused a black man of hate crime/harassment (and the man was convicted, but it's now overturned) for calling him of all things... a geezer! He had the genderspecial woe is me language down pat, that this incident had "denied him his humanity". This is a straight white dude, walking down the street in jeans, a tee, and a jacket, who's own imagined oppression is so great in his own mind that he considers being called geezer a hate crime of epic proportions.

Not surprising that this is the natural result of progressives taking up nothing-really-means-anything-material-oppression-is-irrelevant pomo liberal bs. Why wouldn't oppressor classes gobble that shit right up?

[–]newgcf 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (6子コメント)

A LOT of americans are unhappy and dissatisfied with their lives, even while being more priviliged

Part of it I think is guilt, part of it is feeling increasingly isolated from the means of production, and the ease of modern life making people question whether their existence has any purpose. I don't believe humans are meant to have life as 'easy' as we do in America, even though they believe they want it. We have all the leisure time to do whatever we want, and the only thing we want is be distracted during all that free time, to feel "busy". Or maybe it's that thinking is the only difficult task Americans have left, and we hate doing anything difficult.

Well, I'm depressed. But you're spot on about the unhappiness and dissatisfaction. People are trying to find meaning, and being divided into increasingly smaller groups, while pressured to constantly promote themselves like a commercial product. Individualism is the only path to happiness under those circumstances, and it doesn't make anyone genuinely happy.

[–]unicornliberationmake america terf again 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

i can see that! it seems to me that americans being individualistic and goal-focused is the main problem. many people struggle with not being rich enough, not being popular enough, not being successful enough, not getting where they want to be soon enough, etc. you're so right about the distractions thing!

my country is a typically collectivistic - people value the most family and health, most see things like being rich/famous/successful in your career as fleeting - you have it one day, it can be gone tomorrow. obviously not a perfect culture (far too traditional and religious for my taste), but people are consideringly more happier and being able to find joy in the small things than americans. even though more than 80% of the population struggles with money and 22% live below the poverty line. no fancy vacations and expensive cars for us, and still happy. :) maybe in the end the depression/anxiety epidemic in america stems from loneliness (!!!), self-esteem issues (which created the special snowflake thing) and not appreciating what you have (not living in the present). humans are fascinating.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Americans don't just have a problem with "not being rich enough". A third are in or near poverty, half make less than $30,000 per year, and three quarters live paycheck to paycheck with little to no emergency reserves - in a country where if you slip and fall and are taken in an ambulance to the hospital, it can set you back $7,000 (happened to my mom last year - who works full time, makes $25k per year with a master's degree - which she is still paying off - and the cost was only for the ride, a couple tests and some anti-nausea and pain medications, and monitoring overnight).

What you see on tv is not representative of the american experience for the majority. The idea that this phenomenon is due to americans being too privileged and having it too easy is off base.

[–]unicornliberationmake america terf again 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

i was talking about the mentality, not the reality. as in, why am i not as wealthy as the people i see on tv/as i expected to be when i was young?

[–]qwertypoiuytre 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this is still obfuscating the systemic problem and replacing it with an individualistic analysis. Framing it as wanting more, rather than wanting enough, are two very different things. Many people are too busy "wanting to be as wealthy as": a person who is not perpetually living on the edge of eviction, medical bankruptcy, student loan default, choosing between medicine or food, etc to entertain any serious thoughts as to why they aren't living like the millionaires on tv.

[–]149824710298347 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

i can see that! it seems to me that americans being individualistic and goal-focused is the main problem. many people struggle with not being rich enough, not being popular enough, not being successful enough, not getting where they want to be soon enough, etc. you're so right about the distractions thing!

They still believe in meritocracy and American exceptionalism. Fundamentally. The cognitive dissonance must be overwhelming. Medicalizing distress makes it an individual problem, as well, and there is an authoritarian scientism at play.

Only since the Occupy movement has the concept of social class come into public awareness and actually been talked about in routine discourse. It's a tension that's being worked out.

[–]newgcf 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

but people are consideringly more happier and being able to find joy in the small things than americans

I think collectivist culture is really interesting to compare to America, and I do think that people are generally happier in collectivistic vs individualistic societies... but, as you say, neither is perfect, and collectivism can be taken so far that individual rights and freedom are ignored. So much of our perception and values, and even mental health issues are influenced by the culture in which we're raised.

the depression/anxiety epidemic in america stems from loneliness (!!!), self-esteem issues (which created the special snowflake thing) and not appreciating what you have (not living in the present)

Completely agree, and it's a very sad phenomenon. Not as tragic as say, living in cycles of perpetual violence or poverty... but maybe if more Americans would do something to help those in bad situations, they wouldn't be so depressed...

[–]meanoldlezbean 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Some of these answers have me scratching my head.

First, for those of you who aren't American: individualism is a core American value and has been since this country was born. I just read "Farmer Boy," a class children's book that extolls the virtues of small-town conservative America, and an entire chapter is devoted to praise for the main character's father who says and does whatever he pleases to whomever he likes because he's "free and independent" and the master of his own destiny. This is a good Christian book we give to seven year olds and it was already nostalgia when it was written a written a century ago.

So, that's nothing new.

I'm also confused by this notion that Millennials invented the "special snowflake" phenomenon. I'm a Millennial and I remember people complaining that Baby Boomers came up with it during the self-help craze of the 70s.

They passed it on to us with the whole "everyone is a special and unique snowflake" speech we got in kindergarten, when we got our first lessons in respecting everyone's dignity and personhood.

"Snowflake" is used in a sneering way because most of us learn at some point that the adult world has limited patience for individual dignity and personhood. But I would like to preserve respect for dignity and personhood as cultural value that we teach our kids.

"Snowflake" is a loaded term right now as well because of the people who tend to use it. Lately, when I get called "snowflake," it is usually not because of any particular viewpoint or set of politics I've ascribed to, it's because I've said something critical about the 45th President of the United States, which is not hard to do because he openly praises war criminals on Twitter. It's basically a way to shut down opposition without having to think very hard.

But if you're talking specifically about the far-left tendency to invent new oppressions based on sub-sub-sub identities... you might enjoy this article, which made the rounds about four years ago:

"The Problem With Privilege" by Andrea Smith https://www.google.com/amp/s/andrea366.wordpress.com/2013/08/14/the-problem-with-privilege-by-andrea-smith/

The article is worth clicking on but in short, she argues that the "confession of privilege" convention that became typical in activist circles created a subculture in which being oppressed gave you social status-- so the goal of activism became the pursuit of social status through inventing new forms of oppression instead of attempting to end oppression through addressing the root causes of oppression.

Or, to put it another way: activist subculture went mainstream.

I think she's right. I've become wary of people who spout social justice language to make themselves look more enlightened than other people; I call them social justice scenesters and I avoid them. Not hard, since they rarely show up for anything.

[–]vulvapeopleI am Terficus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Social justice scenesters. I love it. I hope you don't mind if I start using it myself.

[–]clearglassofwater 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think waxing nostalgic is really constructive on this topic so I'm going to say I think it's accelerated capitalism/individualism, collapse of women's liberation into the third wave, feelings of helplessness and alienation both in the world and in local communities leading to anxiety, confusion, individual indulgence, trying to take back control.

[–]endthewooabolitionist 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

American wealth, decadence, consumerism, cultural imperialism + the internet.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaI' m not a TERF: I' m just ladybrained that way! 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

the internet

Stealing a sentence I have read somewhere: the Internet is at the same time the greatest invention of humanity and its worst failure.

[–]endofthelinerXX-Marks-My-Sex=Female 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Individualism wrought monstrous. If you can't get rich and famous in America, fake it with something else, but never, ever, allow yourself to be just a regular "vanilla" working person, female or male. Get rich and famous on Youtube! On TV talentless shows! Doing stupid animal tricks! Promoting style over substance! Or get rich and famous promoting an absolute fraud of an ideology in which you can be the opposite "gender" (sex, that is) of what you were born. Defend yourself to the death, if you have to lie, cheat and steal to accomplish what you set out to do.

It took some other western countries a while to take this on (while competing with their own cultural values), but many, through globalized capitalism, are entwined with the concept now.

[–]Kalipest 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the snowflake thing just err... snowballed really. It started out as a group of good people who were genuinely interested in inclusivity and social awareness. Once it got rolling, it became a conduit for supremely narcissistic behaviour. Basically, the SWJs got drunk on power.

Want to shut someone down? Accuse them of oppressing you - don't even need to prove it, simply self-identify as a member of an "oppressed" group. The more obscure and "oppressed" your group is, the more YOUR voice deserves to be heard. So. Gay is not enough. Gotta be a panromantic asexual demi-boy with self-diagnosed autism.

Want to shut someone up? Declare their point of view "problematic" and either reply with deliberately obtuse jargon-laden argument, or perhaps, if you're feeling lazy, just throw an insult and tell them that it's not your job to "educate" them.

It's quite funny that they declare their opponents "literally hitler", because if anything they themselves prove how good people can find themselves in the midst of an incredibly toxic ideology (just as did plenty of perfectly normal Germans in the 40s).

Likewise, when they talk about wanting to create "safe spaces", what they really mean is that they want the power to designate and control spaces. It's really quite colonialist in nature.

I think a lot of the "snowflake SWJs" will look back on this time in their life and cringe. And that's fine; they are young and young adults are and have always been faintly ridiculous (my goth phase was quite regrettable.)

What is more concerning (and who are more guilty, in my opinion), are the adults who have let these young people use their power-tripping temper tantrums to inform public policy and denigrate the academic culture of university campuses.

[–]120716 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Misdirected empathy without critical thought is another piece of the puzzle in the creation of this culture. As an impressionable young adult, one who tends to believe their point of view is correct and everyone else is wrong, hearing (misleading, false) stats such as 1 in 12 transgender people are murdered can easily elect sympathy and empathy for transgender people if one doesn't apply critical thought. SJW culture also doesn't seem to understand one can ask questions about or criticize an ideology without hating people who follow that ideology – one can criticize religion without hating religious people, one can criticize transgender ideology without hating transgender people.

[–]Fallenstarrynight 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (51子コメント)

It started in the 1990s. I was a kid in the 1990s, so here is how I see it:

The 1990s marked a time when people were obsessed with counseling and psychology. Many books and tv shows around that time centered on the human psyche.

(Another symptom of our psychology craze was the vastly over-diagnosed and over-prescribed ADD/ ADHD. Many, many children were given Riddilin.)

It was at this time that there were many books on how to parent to ensure a healthy child who wouldn't have all those mental issues you saw on tv all day long. Overwhelmingly the answer was to show overt approval of ALL this your child did. The child was always special, always to be fawned over. This led to what many people today blame as the cause of this phenomena, Participation awards.

Participation awards are a good symbol of what went wrong. They show the belief of: Always award your child even if they did nothing to deserve the praise. The problem is, what started as a way to stop self-doubt created a generation of people who think they are special and inherently superior to all those around them.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think a complementary phenomenon to take into account is that all the while the Participation/Snowflake awards mentality was taking off - things really were getting worse for the youngest generations. Millennials for all they are trashed, have been screwed over by the generations before them - starting off adulthood with tens of thousands in debt, crippling health costs, 20% lower pay than the Boomer generation, having to put off the basics of adulthood like home ownership and families. So, thanks to the older generations who gave us all a blue ribbon at the track meet and shit talk us now, but what would have been really special is not throwing future generations' economies and livelihoods into the dumpster.

I think if things were better, more young people would have the confidence and contentment that comes from basic material security and professional/vocational accomplishment and wouldn't be looking for these easy but empty 'fixes' in the first place, i.e. the snowflake coping strategies they were taught.

At the end of the day, of course the blame game doesn't help anybody. We get the leaders and subsequently the conditions we deserve. So it's time for millennials, whether they caused the situation they're in now to get it together and fix it.

[–]SagaciousUmbrella 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was also a kid in the 90s. One of the few actually good and insightful Tumblr posts I've ever read was one that made the point that we saw what was going on with the participation trophies, and it left us distrustful of adults. We ended up thinking, "This adult is praising my performance. How do I know they're being honest, and that they wouldn't be saying the exact same thing no matter how I was doing?" That pattern of thoughts is extremely familiar to me.

Though I suppose these could both be true: the more skeptical or introspective types are thinking "Trust no one!", and the more gullible ones are thinking "why yes, I am spectacularly special." Fast track to Dunning-Kruger.

[–]TheNewGarry2 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (22子コメント)

Sigh. Do you know how much of a conservative buzzword cliche this is? You guys do know that participation awards have been around for a while? I was a kid in the 1990s too. Don't you think that would make it harder for you to have perspective? You don't think structural problems are part of it?

The 'tiger mom' contrasts herself with American parents who coddle their children, but I think her approach also comes from a place of privilege..I don't know what culture you'd attribute to, but she still wanted her kids to be the very specialest and follow their dreams even if she more like forced them to..it takes a tremendous amount of economic privilege to do what she did btw, and her personal anecdotes don't really disprove overwhelming evidence that kids in poor households are disadvantaged and have less opportunities. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/05/21/our-kids-unhappy-days-america/

This is an interesting book- nothing about SJWs, but I think she makes a direct connection between how French mothers are able to have a more lax approach with the increased social safety net, universal pre-k etc. http://nytimes.com/2012/02/26/books/review/pamela-druckermans-bringing-up-bebe.html This Forbes writer isn't buying it, he would rather 'raise a billionaire'. His kid sounds like much more of a snowflake if you ask me http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeswomanfiles/2012/03/07/bringing-up-bebe-no-thanks-id-rather-raise-a-billionaire/

Some of the people who present themselves as 'experts' on the alleged campus SJW crisis in American universities and its origins in character defects of individuals actually have no business talking about it. Eg, Milo, a 33-yr-old man who briefly attended Oxford- in the uk- about 10 yrs ago and dropped out

Don't you think blaming parents is kind of sexist? Like, do you really think the fathers are ever implicitly being blamed? I saw a TradCath blogger blame 'contraception' for this because when mothers don't have 10 children like he thinks they should they focus too energy much on one child. Yes, I hate SJW culture too but this discourse of speaking about them is extremely reactionary.

If you're going to talk about American parents at ALL you're not going to mention the lack of universal pre-k, safety net? Just..participation medals? Come on.

Highly recommend this. This is a very specific issue http://www.raniakhalek.com/2015/09/27/podcast-university-inc-and-the-policing-of-speech-on-american-campuses

[–]NoLadyBrain 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (4子コメント)

There was a shift in parenting styles somewhere in between Gen X and Gen Y with the popularity of the helicopter parenting style increasing dramatically. Anecdotally, I have taught both Gen X and Gen Y/Z in college. Never once did I have a parent of a Gen X student contact me to complain about a grade, ask for an extension, complain about an assignment, or anything of the sort. I can't count the number of Gen Y parents who have contacted me over the years, and I'm not even a full-time professor.

My colleagues experienced the same thing, and some have even had parents contact administrators. A conference I attended even had a workshop on how to deal with helicopter parents. Everyone says the same thing -- this is unique to this generation. Parental intervention may have happened once in a blue moon 20 years ago with Gen Xers (or earlier), but with the Gen Y/Z group it happens with alarming frequency.

Now of course just because it exists doesn't mean that it causes snowflakism. Correlation =/= causation and all that. So is helicopter parenting responsible for snowflakism? By itself, surely not, especially since helicopter parenting is certainly not universal. We undoubtedly see plenty of SJW snowflake types without helicopter parents. But might those with helicopter parents be slightly more likely to develop the narcissism we see in the SJW snowflakes? Possibly? It's a complex cultural phenomenon, so it's hard to break it down to one or two causes.

One other thing (sorry), since you mentioned the participation medal trope, I wanted to comment on how many of us in academia use the term: The whole idea behind a participation medal is that you get an award just for showing up. In a select few of the Gen Y/Z students -- and their parents -- there is the attitude that they should pass the course, or even receive an A, just because they showed up. One student even argued with me that she should pass the course because she paid for it. We call those students "participation medal students" because they want the award -- the grade -- just for having occasionally come to class.

Whether it has anything to do with them having ever received a participation medal in childhood is anyone's guess. It could just be that these few particular students demanding a grade are bratty and entitled. But the basic point is that the grade is the "medal," not literal participation medals they may or may not have gotten as a kid. Does that make sense?

[–]TheNewGarry2 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Definitely, this makes sense..I mean I'm 23..I'm probably too young to know/remember, this is interesting but, I guess like you implied, maybe it's important to keep in mind that changes in parenting style don't happen in a bubble? Maybe we should look at them in the context of much larger political/economic changes etc in society?

Otherwise it kinda feels to me like we are again blaming parents themselves (mainly mothers) and the character deficiencies of SJWs, much like the TradCath blogger who blamed SJW snowflake culture on contraception.

[–]vulvapeopleI am Terficus 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

On the topic of blaming parents, it's not like parents set out to fuck up their kids, quite the opposite. They're doing what they can to try to raise their kids well. I'm not that interested in assigning blame, but if good intentions are creating bad results, I think it's important to address it. To figure out where people are going wrong and how that can be fixed.

[–]NoLadyBrain 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe we should look at them in the context of much larger political/economic changes etc in society?

Agree, definitely. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. Personally I think some of the helicopter parenting has actually been driven by the way that society treats mothers. Women can't win no matter what we do -- if we work outside the home, we are neglecting our kids and they will grow up with no self-esteem. If we don't work outside the home, we are lazy and don't contribute anything to society and are setting a bad example for our kids. In both cases, it can lead to overcompensation and helicopter parenting. And women are of course criticized for that, too. We can't win.

[–]endofthelinerXX-Marks-My-Sex=Female 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Grading on the curve" was in place when I attended community college in 74-76. I was older, 33 yrs old, and had quit a FT job to attend school FT, so most of my cohorts were much younger. I actually attended classes, wrote papers, participated in discussions, and maintained close to a 4.0 avg (the highest at the time). I became friends with a couple of women instructors who were also feminists. In almost every class, there were only a couple of students who actually did this in the academic courses (you tend to remember them). Most were concentrating on trades or 2 yr degrees but needed the English or other core courses. Even as a HS dropout, I tested for the first semester required English course and passed.

I was editor of the school newspaper by default. No one else could do it, nor could they write. It was painful, excruciatingly so, and I felt I was conducting an expository writing class a lot of the time. I agonized over the poor writing. The only journalism class I'd ever had was in 9th grade, in 1955, so I wouldn't call myself exactly qualified, either. I kept my Elements of Style handy.

[–]SagaciousUmbrella 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

"Blaming parents" for participation trophies? I would have thought that schools and/or school systems were responsible.

But this would obviously vary according to region and/or social class anyway (which would also explain why, for each decade, some people here report experiencing the phenomenon in that decade and others report not experiencing it).

[–]TheNewGarry2 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not for trophies per se but parents, especially mothers are the ones who are implicitly blamed in the 'coddled SJWs' narrative. It's also great clickbait. Not that there aren't legit concerns. But most people who talk about are rarely interested in digging deeper or doing anything other than jeering. Like, there's an entire cottage industry of 'SJW mockery' too, including horror movies where SJWs have their entrails eaten by cannibals.

I'm not really sure how trophies themselves would produce psychological effects in an entire generation? Like, you would need some really solid studies for that. It just sounds like the worst David Brooks pop sociology book ever. Robert Putnam isn't a radical or anything, pretty much the opposite when is comes to his conclusions but highly recommend his research. http://thebaffler.com/salvos/childrens-hour

This is pretty much a conservative/communitarian site if anything but they have good research and they are helpful in terms of looking at structural issues http://www.family-studies.org

[–]SagaciousUmbrella 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fair enough. It doesn't help that "SJW" seems to be used to mean "someone I don't like, who is (vaguely) 'on the left'". People here use it to describe libfems/funfems (many of whom enthusiastically embrace the descriptor, because "of course we are warriors for justice that is social!"). Meanwhile, conservatives like my proverbial racist uncle would equally call the people here "SJWs", because they can't (or can't be bothered to) tell the difference.

[–]suburbansoulgirl#000000+XX[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I grew up in the 80s and don't remember participation awards at all.

[–]TheNewGarry2 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I grew up in the 90s and I don't remember them at all either. I had never heard of them before except in the context of gen x people making fun on gen y.

I specifically remember reading somewhere they existed for a long time before. They aren't specific to gen y or anything.

[–]gcgayman 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I remember them quite well from the late nineties, early aughts. At the middle school "award" ceremonies, they simply made up awards until they could justify giving one to everyone. Of course, this meant that some people ended up getting 20+ garbage awards just so the troublemaker kids could get 1. I'm sure those kids saw through the bullshit, and it only made it worse.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I remember it too, especially in athletics. I was very shy and non-competitive, and never liked those school-wide track and field days, but had no problem making my peace with sucking at it. But then I'd have to bring home a ribbon to highlight how I didn't actually win anything yay! and see the attempted enthusiasm from the parents, look at it on the fridge -would have been better to just be able to forget about it. I can also remember several teachers who were very big on always talking about "self-esteem" - that was the big buzzword round our parts. Self-esteem self-esteem self-esteem. It was like if they just said it enough it would magically be instilled. There was never anything real behind it. Never concrete ideas about how to build it. Just this thing the adults kept insisting we were supposed to have (and if you didn't, that's just one more thing you can feel bewilderingly inadequate about! :P).

[–]TheNewGarry2 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I grew up in the 70s and there was no such thing.

I saw an article about the history of participation trophies which said they date from the 19th century or so.

At any rate the problem here is the way we are talking about this.

You cannot diagnose a vast sociological problem, which SJW culture presumably is, by talking about personal memories. Only research and data.

[–]TheNewGarry2 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personal anecdotes are a reactionary way of diagnosing social problems and they usually serve reactionary/neoliberal purposes.

http://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/12/the-personal-and-the-political/

It doesn't actually matter if I remember participation trophies or not because that's not the point.

[–]dixiechick547 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I grew up in the 70s and there was no such thing.

[–]mag19999 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If all college was free everyone could follow their dreams. Scarcity doesn't exist so rationing shouldn't exist.

[–]Kalipest 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are plenty of reasons that people cannot access higher education; finance is only one of them. Consider ability levels, learning disabilities, physical disabilities, family commitments, the appropriateness of a college education with regard to their chosen career...

[–]vulvapeopleI am Terficus 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Scarcity doesn't exist? That's weird, because it's getting harder all the time to get into a reputable college. That's a major reason for the student loan crisis. More and more students are racking up debt at disreputable for-profit colleges and winding up with especially expensive toilet paper instead of useful degrees.

[–]Fallenstarrynight 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I said that participation awards were a good symbol of the effects of the social attitude of fawning over children and with societies obsession with psychology. Participation awards were not the cause but many people associate it with the problem symbolically.

I was a kid in the 1990s too. Don't you think that would make it harder for you to have perspective? You don't think structural problems are part of it?

I mentioned being a 90s kid because it's my perspective as someone who lived through the era as child. You're 23, that means you were born around 1994. You didn't even start school until around 1999-2000. You're not a 90s kid as much as you're a 2000s kid. As a student, I noticed the cultural shift (especially in schools) sometime around the late 90s and early 2000s. Teachers began to be instructed to change their approach. In those few years, the education approach changed vastly. I noticed it.

I don't think it was structural, I think it was cultural. That's why I mentioned the new obsession with psychology and counseling.

You're also questioning my ability to have perspective although you seem to have plenty for someone who was 6 in 2000. :/

Don't you think blaming parents is kind of sexist?

That's your own bias. I didn't refer to tiger moms (or lion dads). Tiger moms aren't the fawning parent. Tiger moms demanded excellence, they didn't/don't give out unearned awards. Tiger moms don't cause SJWs they cause perfectionists or people with crippling self-doubt. A SJWs main character flaw is entitlement.

Some of the people who present themselves as 'experts' on the alleged campus SJW crisis in American universities and its origins in character defects of individuals actually have no business talking about it.

It's not colleges. The origin of this is elementary/primary schools. It's why I mentioned children.

If you know anyone in early childhood education ask them what the no-No policy is. It may have a different name, but it means that you are not allowed to say "no" to children for fear that it will psychologically distress them. Many places also coach you on how to correct a child who answers wrong. You can't simply tell them they're wrong because apparently it's damaging.

If you're going to talk about American parents at ALL you're not going to mention the lack of universal pre-k, safety net? Just..participation medals? Come on.

I didn't just mention participation medals. You saw it and clung to it. I called it a symbol. I clearly stated that many people blame them, but the more important issue was what they represent as a symbol. They're a symptom of the disease, not the cause.

And once again, I mentioned the over-abundance of psychology themed shows in the media as I think it was what led to the cultural shift by creating an obsession with abnormal psychology and juvenile psychology.

[–]TheNewGarry2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

A SJWs main character flaw is entitlement.

Not that individual SJWs aren't assholes, but don't you think it is kind of short-sighted to look at this whole phenomenon outside the context of economic inequality, the Great Recession etc? Some conservatives take this talking point and argue that millenials are 'entitled' for supporting fight for 15 etc. How dare they want a living wage etc I don't really think millenials are 'entitled', if that's what you are implying, the statistics don't add up..

What percentage of gen y are actually SJWs? What percentage of them have degrees at all? http://nytimes.com/2014/06/08/books/review/degrees-of-inequality-by-suzanne-mettler.html

Tiger moms aren't the fawning parent. Tiger moms demanded excellence, they didn't/don't give out unearned awards. Tiger moms don't cause SJWs they cause perfectionists or people with crippling self-doubt.

I will mainly have anecdotal evidence for this, which is contradicting what I said previously, but not always the case.

Most of the extreme SJW student protests, eg the infamous Yale/Christakis video occurred at very elite schools. You're going to tell me that none of the kids there grew up with Tiger moms and they just got in with a combination of rich parents/affirmative action (as many conservative bloggers said) ? None?

It's not like these kids are idiots either? People overlook the fact that Tiger mom herself is wealthy and it would be extremely disingenuous for her to say her kids, both legacies who she basically trained to get into Harvard just got in with their bootstraps.

I think flattening 'sjw' protesters into these one-dimensional personality types is very reductive, don't you? You don't think any of the Yale SJWs offended by cultural appropriation in Halloween costumes, dumb as they are, are perfectionists with crippling self-doubt?

That's your own bias. I didn't refer to tiger moms (or lion dads).

Sadly, it's not my own bias. These things are always, always very gendered irl...This sub of all places would know that..

[–]Fallenstarrynight 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some conservatives take this talking point and argue that millenials are 'entitled' for supporting fight for 15 etc. How dare they want a living wage etc I don't really think millenials are 'entitled', if that's what you are implying

You're confusing terms. A millenial =/= SJW =/= Activist. A person can be all 3 or 2 or 1. Protesting alone doesn't make someone a SJW, certainly not protesting for living wages.

You're going to tell me that none of the kids there grew up with Tiger moms and they just got in with a combination of rich parents/affirmative action (as many conservative bloggers said)? None?

Nothing is absolute.

I think flattening 'sjw' protesters into these one-dimensional personality types is very reductive, don't you?

I didn't flatten them down to a personality type, I hypothesized a singular character trait. Entitlement.

You don't think any of the Yale SJWs offended by cultural appropriation in Halloween costumes, dumb as they are, are perfectionists with crippling self-doubt?

Nothing is absolute.

[–]susannunes 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What really did it was the rise of "postmodernism" and especially "queer theory" in academia.

Poison, complete and total poison.

[–]dotinalinemore demi 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

For me it was made possible by a few things.

1) I was miserable and trying to figure out who I was as a young adult. Typical, but I think this precondition explains like 95% of the horrible/annoying things people do. People are super alienated right now. That's not new, but now there's...

2) The internet, and the way it magnifies/cultivates certain personality disorders. You can find "information" on anything. You can look very, very into any given thing you might feel or suspect. All sorts of thoughts that could otherwise be let go of or worked through are utterly nurtured if only you seek it.

3) I needed feminism, for a lot of personal and broader societal reasons, to make sense of things. The feminism I found was already third-wavey but in a fairly innocuous way at first. It helped me a lot for a while but over the years I witnessed it evolving into something much less useful very quickly.

4) A deep, burning desire to make the world a fairer and better place. Maybe this is because of idealistic 90s children's programming? Maybe it's because of being raised by Baby Boomer adults? It was in no small part because of being socialized female at least.

5) Understanding that patriarchy had wreaked a lot of havoc in my life, it was very easy to see how systemic racism was also something I should accept as something I wanted to do something about. I think this was an accurate judgment. But that same desire to do good by oppressed people can be easily manipulated to cater to every other person's stated needs (and genderism's histrionics are so loud/manipulative/contagious due to low barrier to entry that it's very easy for it to take disproportionate priority).

The other day I listened to this podcast with 3 women who left the Quiverfull movement and was struck by something a woman said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fee6eqIDACw

She said something along the lines of that she had relatively normal problems (she was in a dysfunctional, abusive relationship) and was looking for a way to understand it, to fix it. A solution that was presented to her at the right time was: submit to your husband's God-ordained rule and everything will be great!

Like devoted Quiverfull women, idealistic, passionate young women will literally destroy themselves in the name of what they perceive to be the greater good. Heck, given that young men have been led to war like this since time immemorial, this might be a universal human tendency.

I didn't get excessive adult attention as a kid and I remember knowing participation ribbons were stupid and thought they were kind of insulting... I'd just throw them away. So I don't think a real explanation is nearly so cutesy.

It's a confluence of a lot of things. People need answers, and since most religious and civic institutions have failed to adapt and account for so many things, people are looking for something else to go in that spot where religion would go.

The truth is, life is just hard. For some reason we don't have an adequate shared cultural understanding of that, so people try to solve their problems by adopting solutions that feel comprehensive. And the more the ideology/cult/lifestyle change/whatever asks of you, the more likely it is to feel deliciously (deceptively) effective. The dramatic changes make the solutions feel effective for a while but at the end of the day life is still really hard and always will be to some extent.