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Already SubmittedDanish authorities demand women-only swimming sessions used by Muslim immigrants are scrapped so 'people learn it is natural to swim together' (dailymail.co.uk)

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[–]designgoddess 2112 ポイント2113 ポイント  (272子コメント)

I remember a friend's grandmother telling the story of when she was a kid and came to visit family in the north. They were at the beach and she saw that nobody got out of the water when a black family went swimming. She thought that was strange and spent the rest of the day at the beach trying to decide which way made the most sense.

[–]byte-rider 1345 ポイント1346 ポイント  (126子コメント)

So much this. Part of her world-view was challenged that day.

Segregation is a move backwards; doing it in the name of tolerance doesn't change that.

[–]The_Matias 432 ポイント433 ポイント  (72子コメント)

This is what so many people have a hard time understanding. Segregation just causes more segregation. It's a vicious cycle.

[–]Ferare [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

I'm not Danish but Swedish, we recently banned segregated hours in public pools. The argument was more pragmatic - women and girls should also learn how to swim. Some of them avoided the pool because the genders were mixed. That's why it was allowed in the first place. I support the ban 100%, just wanted to expand on the argument.

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    [–]frontierparty [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    Yes but even in Muslim countries like Egypt, they segregate themselves. Woman have woman only cars on the subway so they are not bothered by men. It's really awkward when you get on that car by accident.

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      [–]Reedit_girl 169 ポイント170 ポイント  (124子コメント)

      I like your friend's gran. My gran's pretty racist and she's not gonna change now.

      [–]LordBiscuits 131 ポイント132 ポイント  (107子コメント)

      She is probably reasonably moderate for her time. It's very easy to judge people by today's standards when they have lived the majority of their lives with segregation etc being perfectly normal.

      I do wonder sometimes what will be considered taboo when I'm old, that is currently not even considered a thing. Pet ownership perhaps, eating meat maybe? Who knows.

      [–]plumpvirgin [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

      eating meat maybe?

      I'm a meat-eater, but I'm fairly convinced that this will be a big one. Maybe not in the next 50 years, but it absolutely will be one of those things that people look back on and say "wow, I can't believe that we did that to animals just <number> years ago".

      Probably won't happen until there's a convenient alternative like lab-grown meat though, 'cause change on that scale is hard, and people really like their meat.

      [–]LordBiscuits [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

      Yeah, when a viable 'cruelty free' product is available, that is affordable and broadly the same as meat, it'll start to go that way. Perhaps we will see the rise of 'real meat' connoisseurs, gathering in dimly lit basements and back rooms, sharing out pate and veal cutlets

      [–]DogfaceDino [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

      "It just tastes better", we'll tell each other, on our edgy NSFW reddit sub. "Have you ever had a lab grown rare steak? It's awful. Spongey. You can't convince me it's the same."

      I already miss real meat.

      [–]LordBiscuits [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

      "Why have Meat when you can have Smeat!... Now available, our largest range of synthetic proteins ever, in all the traditional anipro configurations! Just ask your energy provider for Smeat, the industry leading synthetic protein brand!"

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            [–]1RedReddit 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            Yeah, same with mine's. Extreme racist, ended up estranging herself from her family because of how hateful she is. She deserves it.

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              [–]magicsonar [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

              I'm very liberal on most things and i completely agree with a country not feeling it needs to fundamentally change it's culture in order to accommodate everyone. That would be mad. I think people that come to places like Denmark should and probably do appreciate it for what it is. And going out of your way to change things, under the guise you are being "inclusive" is actually counter-productive. That is not so say you shouldn't go out of your way to accept someone else's culture and the choices they make - but accepting someone for who they are does not mean changing how you live yourself.

              [–]grozamesh [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

              It's weird to think that segregation here is considered a liberal view.

              Desegregation has historically been the progressive view.

              I'm not sure I would ban these, as a politician I would certainly discourage it.

              [–]magicsonar [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              Yeah i don't think it would be right to ban it. I mean, if a group of women want to organize a club so they can swim by themselves, they should go for it. But if we are talking about official school classes or things funded by the town hall, then they should do what they have always done.

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                    [–][deleted] 4789 ポイント4790 ポイント  (854子コメント)

                    Danish guy here.

                    These are partially publicly/city funded swimming halls. All Danes should have access to them within the regular opening hours.

                    People are free to start their own private swimming halls and have women/Muslim-only sessions.

                    [–]MinotaurWarrior 166 ポイント167 ポイント  (141子コメント)

                    Do you guys not have other restricted use hours? Genuine question as an American.

                    [–]factsforreal 132 ポイント133 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                    There are stuff like 'baby swimming', where part of the facilities (e.g. part of the hot baby-pool) is reserved for said activity. I think part is a keyword here. The Muslim women-only stuff also included the the ticket-sellers had to be women-only.

                    [–]Branical 98 ポイント99 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    What about the "moderately attractive baby-pool?"

                    [–]Brewe [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    The ticket seller for those activities has to be a 40+ man with a pencil mustache.

                    Source: Danish

                    [–]Necropoke [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    Too many hairy babies.

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                      [–]djzoabrrfoama 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Da fuck. Ticket sellers? Really?

                      [–]this_is_not_nil [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      Ticket sellers and life guards etc. No men in the premises of the leisure center.

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                        [–]Zahanna6 304 ポイント305 ポイント  (119子コメント)

                        Here in the UK, it's normal to have an adult-only hour, a women-only hour, and an over-50s hour, but I've never seen a men-only hour advertised.

                        [–]epanchin 301 ポイント302 ポイント  (92子コメント)

                        I have been to both male only swimming lakes and a male only swimming session here in the U.K. I wouldn't choose to do so again, they're full on pick up zones for gay man.

                        In fact, any man wondering why women only sessions are a good idea need only visit a male only swimming bath and experience unwelcome advances first hand.

                        [–]aggrippina [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                        Danish atheist woman here living in the most muslim populated part of Denmark. My take on the arguement of segregation fuelling more segration, is that allowing muslim girls to take part in swimming activities for girls only, has had the effect of including more girls in sports club, making them physically, socially healthier, more integrated and teaching them how to swim. Sports clubs are a big part of the Danish local communities and the alternative is the girls will stay isolated at home. "In fact, any man wondering why women only sessions are a good idea need only visit a male only swimming bath and experience unwelcome advances first hand." The take on this whole matter in Danish news papers and all around is that this is a case of the free western world vs the social control of islam. I'm a Danish atheist. and I avoid swimming baths for the same unwelcome advances. Ideals of purity, ideals of beauty, ideals of women as objects are just different local ways of exercising social control. Besides, as the Danish guy pointed out, these are private swimming clubs, and they're free to do what ever they want.

                        [–]grozamesh [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        At least one other person claiming to be Danish claimed that these are at least partly publicly funded.

                        I know that detail is pretty significant to me personally if making a determination.

                        [–]Duncan9 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        The Danish guy that the pools are receiving public funding

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                          [–]LeadingPretender 86 ポイント87 ポイント  (59子コメント)

                          Holy shit maybe lesbians use women only sessions as pick up zones too

                          [–]more_boltgun_metal 118 ポイント119 ポイント  (15子コメント)

                          Having worked as a lifeguard, I noticed much more man on man shit going on than lesbianism.

                          Saunas and jacuzzi area was a local hotspot for the male gay community.

                          That's how I got fired. I wrote an article for the local paper about an old man propositioning a kid in the sauna and fleeing when we called the cops.

                          Pretty frustrating picking up shitty condoms all the time or the unmistakable signs of jizz during cleaning.

                          [–]JimMarch 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (11子コメント)

                          Guys are horndogs... Gay, straight, doesn't matter :).

                          Lesbians aren't into one-night stands to anywhere near the degree gays are.

                          Classic lesbian joke: what does a lesbian bring to the 2nd date? A moving van...

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                            [–]Anonymous9753 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            My experience is that those are hetero women taking a break from men oogling them. Tiring having to deal with that shit.

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                                [–]Advertise_this [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                Yeah, also in the UK. Those women's hours are actually quite helpful. Lots of men, perticularly older guys, see a woman in a bathing suit and take it as read that means they're okay to hit on them. Kind of similar to women wearing yoga pants at the gym. They're helpful for women who go the pool just to, y'know, exercise.

                                [–]ClimbingC [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                Those women's hours are actually quite helpful

                                Not for me. I used to go swimming before work, only time I could really fit it in, due to the evenings I were not busy were either the local swimming clubs training nights, or kiddies events.

                                Then they changed the schedule so that the morning swims were now "women only". Highly frustrating.

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                                  [–]holaquerida [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                  I suppose most swimming pools are acting on the assumption that swimming pools are (during adult hours) male dominated anyway?

                                  Edit: Also, thinking about it, women only hours can allow victims of sexual abuse to go swimming while feeling safe, and (as someone with very, very low self esteem) allows women to go swimming without fear of being sexualised/stared at. The amount of times I've gone to an "adult swim" only to have a group of lads jeering at me is shocking. The last time it happened I was 19; I turned around, went back into the changing rooms, cried for a solid 5 minutes, and never went swimming again

                                  [–]torn-ainbow [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                  I've never seen a men-only hour advertised.

                                  This might be a lot more to do with demand. Have any male groups asked for such time?

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                                    [–]strokedafurrywallman 65 ポイント66 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                    Like 15 minutes of "adult swim"?

                                    [–]Trigger_gnome 64 ポイント65 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                    Sir. Sir, please stop masturbating in the pool.

                                    [–]Polytronism 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                    AKA, lets clear out the majority of the pool to check if there is anyone who has drowned in the past 45 minutes swim.

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                                        [–]Amphibialrabies69 115 ポイント116 ポイント  (82子コメント)

                                        Do you not have times throughout the day for different things? In Canada the pools have a Public swim time, basically people do whatever they want for an hour or two, they have lane swimming times, water aerobics times. It's not just a free for all all day, that would be just annoying. Or what about women's only gyms? We have some chains that are for women only, and some big gyms that have a couple locations for women or a section for women.

                                        I really have no problem with that. More people being comfortable going means my fees are lower.

                                        [–]baddspellar 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        Or what about women's only gyms? We have some chains that are for women only, and some big gyms that have a couple locations for women or a section for women.

                                        But they're not "partially publicly/city funded".

                                        [–]Priff 62 ポイント63 ポイント  (51子コメント)

                                        Honestly never heard of a women only chain of gyms... That would not fly here in Scandinavia tbh.

                                        [–]PrincessPurple 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                        There's at least one in Odense, Denmark. Doesn't seem like it has anything to do with religion, based on their advertising.

                                        [–]BinaryHobo 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        I imagine, at least in most places, private enterprise is different from publicly funded accommodations.

                                        [–]szpaceSZ 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                        Yeah, but it's not challenged on the grunds of discrimination.

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                                          [–]Justjack2001 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          We have them in Australia.. nobody cares.

                                          [–]NotSquareGarden 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          Here ya go. In Norway there are gyms with women's only sections. It would absolutely fly, and it has flown for a very very long time now.

                                          [–]Atlanta_Camel 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Yes it would, because it already exists.

                                          [–]Ersthelfer 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                          It's common in Germany as well, some women prefer it.

                                          [–]verbutten 65 ポイント66 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                          It's common and widely appreciated in the US, and has nothing at all to do with religion.

                                          [–]Quetzie 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          But everything to do with culture, which Scandinavians have plenty of themselves.

                                          [–]idaltufalkard 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          There's women's gyms in Scandinavia too. I googled for stockholm and they at least have an establishment of the 'curves' chain

                                          [–]IS1c1c 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Know of one in Denmark too, used to drive past it every day.

                                          [–]Hjal 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          We're all living in Amerika!

                                          Coca cola, sometimes war.

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                                            [–]koala_ikinz 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                            24/7 here in Sweden has got women only sections of the gym.

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                                                [–]amon_meiz 69 ポイント70 ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                                Even as a muslim. I find this as fine and okay. Other people shouldn't be force to adhere to muslim law just to satisfy muslim needs.

                                                Like u said, they are free to start their own private swimming session

                                                But on default, the pool should be accessible to everyone

                                                [–]Flouyd 81 ポイント82 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                these pools had female only times before the immigrant crisis though. It was not instituted for muslims.

                                                [–]UnseenPower [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                Muslim people didnt propose the women's only swimming session. It was available already, but Muslim women attended.

                                                [–]UnseenPower 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                It's not Muslims just pushing it. Jewish people also book private sessions for their women too (UK)

                                                There are women's only sessions here which aren't just for Muslims, but for women. The reality is, some women prefer to swim without men.

                                                That being said, whatever the law is, stick to it. :)

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                                                  [–]Crazhr 1027 ポイント1028 ポイント  (431子コメント)

                                                  The first part is true the second is not. Private swimming halls offering special benefits based on gender without a valid reason would be discrimination and illegal under the law. Valid reasons would have to be proven able to for fill the purpose it would have to be deemed necessary for the purpose and it would have to proportional.

                                                  It would be very very hard to not be seen as discrimination. To name just a single issue then the typical idea that women would feel more safe or something similar would be based on the idea that men as a group are dangerous. This group thinking can't be used as a valid judicial argument. A very similar case was with a Danish private hotel that had a female only floor. The court found that to be discrimination and not allowed.

                                                  [–]Xabster 852 ポイント853 ポイント  (67子コメント)

                                                  Both his statements are true.

                                                  We in Denmark also have freedom of association. If you make an association called Muslim swimmers where the entry requirement is that you're a Muslim you can do this.

                                                  Elderly have it (age), [Kræftens Bekæmpelse] (certain sickness), Mensa (IQ), different disability groups (you must have disability or be a helper), baby swimming (you have to be a parent).

                                                  Here's a few for women only: http://www.shezone.dk/ - http://ssb-sport.dk/produkt-kategori/kvindesvoemning/ - http://www.gladsaxe.dk/idraetsanlaeggene/idraetsfaciliteter/bagsvaerd_svoemmehal/wellness_og_motion/kvindesvoemning

                                                  (2 are private, one is public)

                                                  The swimmingpool that the OP is about is the one in Gellerup close to Århus and it's ONLY that one. And it's a city council decision what kind of events should be at that public swimmingpool and they've decided to scrap the women only sessions (DF/Venstre decision) because they think it's bad for integration. It's not a law.

                                                  [–]halfpastnoonan 231 ポイント232 ポイント  (28子コメント)

                                                  agreed, this would be like saying my men's softball team that my friends and I started is "sexist" and a city forcing is to make it co-ed.

                                                  If it's a public organization, there can be a legal argument for opening it up to everyone, if it's a private organization, you can do whatever you want so long as a preexisting law isn't broken.

                                                  [–]OlfertFischer 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  The ban on segregated swimming was not a right wing decission (DF/Venstre) as you indicate. It was a 26/31 majority including SF (socialist) and S (social democrats). Source: I can see the town hall from my windows.

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                                                    [–]swohio 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                    Wait, you mean I can't start my own private "men only" club if I wanted to? Even if it is private?

                                                    [–]Skipaspace 187 ポイント188 ポイント  (266子コメント)

                                                    This is a genuine question. If they offered an all female floor, couldn't they just offer an all male floor in the sake of fairness?

                                                    [–]weirdsciguy 677 ポイント678 ポイント  (202子コメント)

                                                    Yeah, and in American history there was this amazing thing called separate but equal that was an awful abuse of words to be blatantly discriminatory.

                                                    [–]SerialSection 473 ポイント474 ポイント  (182子コメント)

                                                    I hope we can finally get rid of the women only showers and lockerrooms too!

                                                    [–]Phlebas99 307 ポイント308 ポイント  (87子コメント)

                                                    I've been to a couple of swimming pools here in the UK where they have. It's a both sexes changing room, with enclosed cubicles for changing and for showering, and with strict rules to stay clothed at all times unless in one of those closed cubicles.

                                                    Seems to work.

                                                    [–]Apkoha 215 ポイント216 ポイント  (31子コメント)

                                                    well fucked that.. if I can't stand around naked with a foot up on the bench, drying my balls off while I watch the news or discuss last nights game with someone then I don't want to use that locker room! relevant Oatmeal

                                                    [–]7days7bytes 236 ポイント237 ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                                    It's really the only reason to get old, to be able to pull out the ole plums and let em breathe amongst fellow old people. I don't even like sports, but I will come to like them in my old age for these very moments and discussions. I'll enjoy the routine of it more than the content, much like the newspaper and talk radio habits I plan to pick up as well. I'll have kids just so people can ask me how they're doing, and a lawn so I can discuss lawn care. I'll perpetually have shelves I'm building or installing, and a problem with my gutters. I'll take cholesterol and HBP meds whether or not I'm prescribed them, so I can complain about the side effects and how heart disease is in my family even if it's not. I'll wear tube socks. I'll have a hat I wear when I do yard work that'll have stains around the brim from the sweat, but I'll also wear it out to nice restaurants and nice occasions. I'll buy a big ugly bulky g-shock watch because I like sturdy things, and I'll drink apple cider vinegar because a bogus health website told me to. I'll send chain emails about politics, and send half written facebook comments to old friends on facebook about how time flies. I'll wear all natural deodorant that doesn't work at all because The Doctors said aluminum gives you Alzheimer's. I'll get Alzheimer's anyway and forget everyone and everything I knew, as the painstakingly constructed castles of sand that are my life get washed away in the tide of time. Then I'll die.

                                                    [–]SandyCheeksWasAHoax 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                    White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.

                                                    [–]Vadersballhair 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                    That doesn't sound so bad

                                                    [–]falcon_jab 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                    It's like the intro to a middle-class version of Trainspotting

                                                    [–]krispolle 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                    Very very nice write up there. Made me laugh. Think I'll be the same when I get ole. Just with more angry complaining and claret.

                                                    [–]luciferslandlord 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                    Holy mother of God. You spent some time on that 😂

                                                    [–]Keyboardkat105 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                    This redditor is going to enjoy the fuck out of being an old person.

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                                                      [–]Onkel_Wackelfluegel 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                      As a regular Oatmeal reader, I totally saw that one coming.

                                                      [–]nomadbynature 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                      Risky click of the day

                                                      [–]MuizZ_018 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                      It's 9:20 AM here, and this is already my third risky click. Things are weird this morning

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                                                          [–]trotbags 98 ポイント99 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                          This.

                                                          Also from the UK, I can't remember the last time I was in a leisure centre that had separate changing rooms.

                                                          My mother is the manager of a leisure centre in my home town, the reason why unisex changing rooms are a big thing is because there are a lot of single parent families say like dads who have older girls who wouldn't be able to go in the male changing rooms, disabled people who need a careers of the opposite sex etc.

                                                          [–]we_re_all_dead 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                          I need a career in the opposite sex too

                                                          [–]F913 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                          You have our complete support. Have you talked to doctors about HRT?

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                                                            [–]Fishing_Dude 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                            But at that point just have separate locker rooms so people can change in from of the locker no?

                                                            [–]Phlebas99 60 ポイント61 ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                            Makes it easier for parents with children of opposite sex to their own to continue to look after them when they get to the awkward age where the child should probably go the correct sex changing room.

                                                            This both-sexes changing room idea might have been hastened along due to the number of children being raised in single parent households.

                                                            [–]WoorkWoorkWoork 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                            "sex changing room" I read that a bit differently.

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                                                              [–]Hotblack_Desiato_ 55 ポイント56 ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                                              It'd never work here in the US. Someone would end up making a colossal stink over being offended by something so incredibly trivial that 99% of normal people would never take note of it.

                                                              The mix of individuality and enterprising spirit that makes America somewhat unique in the world can sometimes go horribly awry in some people, leading to someone who is absolutely convinced that they're the center of the universe and that the entire fucking planet needs to accommodate them. And I know that you can find this sort of person everywhere, but in most countries, they're just jerks, and they know that they're jerks. Here in America, these kinds of people believe that they are normal, reasonable, and they are absolutely boggled by the idea that people might think otherwise.

                                                              [–]zilfondel 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                              In oregon not only do we have public nude beaches, public nude hot springs, and certain family friendly soaking tub places where both sexes change in front of each other.

                                                              Works fine.

                                                              [–]ZombaterVX 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                              not only do we have

                                                              But, you also have... what?

                                                              [–]Jonastt 73 ポイント74 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                              Seriously defunded grammar education.

                                                              [–]ShadowTurd 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                              This is killing me, please someone give me a "but we also have"

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                                                                  [–]originalcandy 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                  Here in Amsterdam we have shared saunas and steam rooms at member only gyms. Fully naked in general, or pop on a towel, either way welcome. It's about tolerance and respect.

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                                                                    [–]princessofpotatoes 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (42子コメント)

                                                                    This is actually an oddly valid point though. At what point do we draw the line between what's appropriate to separate by sex and what isn't?

                                                                    [–]fortunaisland 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                    As someone who went to a single sex school in the UK, I feel even single sex schooling is unacceptable

                                                                    [–]Lagaluvin 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                    Me too, in hindsight.

                                                                    [–]Liam50lb 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                    I quiet enjoyed my time at an all boys school. I do think my social awareness around women is hampered though.

                                                                    [–]Slanderous [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                    The primary school I went to was a really old building with 2 doors with 'BOYS' and 'GIRLS' carved over them on the side of the building. They'd added a main entrance and used that, but it was a strange reminder what it would have been like.

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                                                                      [–]sal6056 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                      It's ethnocentric. Everyone determines what is appropriate based on their own cultural perception. The issue then becomes that practice shapes culture. The US has swung from a conservative culture when it comes to gender equality to very liberal, and swung back to being more conservative. There is only a right answer in a fixed point in time.

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                                                                        [–]enterence 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                        All the public swimming pools in France I have been too have common shower rooms.

                                                                        [–]Randdist 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                        Saunas in austria, including showers and sometimes lockers, are often unisex. It isn't an issue until you want it to be an issue.

                                                                        [–]Phillile 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                        Partitioned showers and lockers for everyone!

                                                                        [–]andiwatt 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                        In the Netherlands as far as I know thermals are unisex for example.

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                                                                          [–]Xyra54 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          Wouldn't it be more like how private places can offer female/male saunas?

                                                                          [–]rydan[🍰] 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                          Well at my university we had men's dorms, women's dorms, men's floors, and women's floors. And we even had separate sections on the same floors sometimes. But what we didn't have were coed rooms. But according to you this is discriminatory?

                                                                          [–]mancubus314159 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          Well, it's segregation.

                                                                          [–]beejamin 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                          Clearly it is. Whether or not you think it's a good idea, the whole set up is predicated on 'men and women should not share rooms'

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                                                                              [–]GlitterRiot 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (28子コメント)

                                                                              The most likely answer to this, at least in the U.S., is yes, they could just also offer a male floor. Hostels and college dorms here have male and female rooms/floors, and the general population is fine with that. And then outside the U.S., you find women-only subway cars and sections of bathhouses, and the general population is fine with that.

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                                                                                [–]travlerjoe 51 ポイント52 ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                                                                Do you not have female exclusive gyms? We do in australia. Noone cares

                                                                                [–]Sulavajuusto 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                                Dunno, here in Helsinki we have a swimming pool, which has separate Women/Men sessions, due to it being all-naked pool.

                                                                                [–]anothga 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                I feel like the "all-naked" part is important here.

                                                                                [–]Syndic 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                I think the only difference why some Muslims don't want to swim around the other gender and why some people don't want to be naked around the other gender is just the level of prudness.

                                                                                [–]2legittoquit 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                The only difference is the level of clothes...the same principle applies

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                                                                                  [–]badtradesguy 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                                                                  in canada there are women only gyms.

                                                                                  [–]tigerking615 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                                  Question. How do things like ladies' nights work, where some places give big discounts to women? Would that not also be considered discrimination?

                                                                                  [–]chykin 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                  Definitely illegal (in the UK) as far as advertising standards and the 2010 Equalities Act.

                                                                                  The issues is that it is almost impossible to challenge these as the cost would likely be higher than the punishment.

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                                                                                      [–]BetweenTrips 136 ポイント137 ポイント  (56子コメント)

                                                                                      Danish guy here, from the city in question.

                                                                                      These are partially publicly/city funded pools, and should be managed by the local communities in a democratic way by the people who use them - within reason, and within the law.

                                                                                      People are free to start their own pools where they can make up whatever arcane rules they like.

                                                                                      Politicians in city-hall and "Danish guys" on the internet, should not decide how the people who live in this part of town manage their local community, or how the people who run the pool, should do it or respond to local needs and demands.

                                                                                      Pools are closed off to the public or parts of the public all the time for all sorts of reasons.

                                                                                      It should be up to the people it affects, not opportunistic politicians trying to exploit racism and bigotry. We're talking a few hours every week here. Chill out. It's not the Caliphate.

                                                                                      Furthermore, if the argument about "oppression of muslim women" is to be taken seriously, we have to ask: "Does giving them 2 hours at the pool with no men help or hinder further liberation of women who may or may not find themselves confined within patriachial cultural structures?"

                                                                                      It's all bullshit. While we're debating this shit, Denmark is going to war in Syria, we're cutting social security to the bone, the health care system is falling apart, we're about to spend $20 bln. USD on F-35s, the country is being sold, politicians are full of shit and corrupt to the core.

                                                                                      But hey, here are some people having fun in a pool without their more or less backward husbands giving them a hard time about it: LET'S FUCK WITH THAT.

                                                                                      I don't even know what to say to people anymore. I'm fucking ashamed of my countrymen. Grow the fuck up.

                                                                                      [–]ohmantho 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                                                      American here, we have been going through the same thing.

                                                                                      There are hundreds of real life problems that need to be discussed.

                                                                                      People are still arguing over where transsexuals should take a shit in public.

                                                                                      Edit: wow i worded that last part badly

                                                                                      [–]Lard_Baron 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                      Muslim women are a huge problem in Vejle. There must be at least 2 of them. Soon they'll overrun us. I'm glad the politicians are focusing on the real problems we have.

                                                                                      [–]BetweenTrips 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                      Haha, yeah, they're EVERYWHERE!

                                                                                      I hate the assumption from some of the right-wing-types (or whatever they are) that I want the caliphate because I'm not bashing muslims.

                                                                                      I'm more concerned about Goldman Sachs and stupid politicians. When I think there's any danger of the caliphate coming about, you'll find me in a trench somewhere with war-paint and grass in my helmet, ready to wage war for my right to run around naked, smeared in pig-fat (that's legal, isn't it?)

                                                                                      It's pathetic. It's just a diversion: "Here look, these guys are brown and different, don't worry about us, we're just going to the bank."

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                                                                                          [–]2MnyClksOnThDancFlr 106 ポイント107 ポイント  (55子コメント)

                                                                                          Except in Denmark there have been female-only, publicly funded pools, gyms, museums, schools and shelters for absolutely years.

                                                                                          The only reason this is news is because it's a chance to piss on muslims. What's happening here has been going on since the imaginary age of a 100% Danish Denmark.

                                                                                          Don't see any of you complaining about sports teams. If you're such staunch defenders of eye-for-an-eye equality, why aren't you boycotting and rioting against organized sports.

                                                                                          Admit it, it's just fun to get outraged.

                                                                                          [–]Roguezoren 57 ポイント58 ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                                                                          Can you provide me a link to the female-only puclic funded museums, schools and shelters?

                                                                                          [–]gordo65 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                          Here's the original story that the Daily Fail cut and pasted to make their own report.

                                                                                          The Daily Fail "forgot" to include the fact that women-only sessions have been a feature at the Aarhus pool for 10 years. The weekly sessions became controversial when Muslims became the primary users of the sessions.

                                                                                          They also omitted the basis for the Institute for Human Rights' complaint: you can't say that women are being repressed by being offered a choice to swim without men around for a couple of hours a week.

                                                                                          If men feel discriminated against, they can ask for a couple of hours a week for men-only sessions.

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                                                                                                [–]zerotetv 746 ポイント747 ポイント  (32子コメント)

                                                                                                Can we not use daily fail as a source?

                                                                                                Here is an article by another outlet, which happens to be the source for the daily fail article.

                                                                                                [–]gullman 117 ポイント118 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                                                100%. I'd also like if we didn't support TMZ because they suck balls.

                                                                                                [–]Max_TwoSteppen 45 ポイント46 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                Does TMZ make it to /r/WorldNews? Good God.

                                                                                                [–]Mr_Abe_Froman 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                I feel very nearly the same way when I see the Daily Mail. It holds almost as much credibility as the National Enquirer.

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                                                                                                    [–]batfiend 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                    Thanks for that, it's a much better article.

                                                                                                    I found it interesting that it's a 10 year old program that's only facing being shut down now.

                                                                                                    One opponent says:

                                                                                                    “It is completely crazy to meet these demands. There is a desperately short supply of swimming pools, so we shouldn't be closing them down by putting curtains in front of the windows and signs saying ‘just for girls' just to meet the demands of religious fanatics,”

                                                                                                    He derides the pool for 'meeting demands,' when it's a program that's already existed for a decade.

                                                                                                    Is that a political move I wonder? Do Denmark have an election soon?

                                                                                                    [–]m0rogfar 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                    Is that a political move I wonder? Do Denmark have an election soon?

                                                                                                    Not unless something goes wrong for the government.

                                                                                                    [–]pkofod 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                    Yup, municipal politicians are up for election come November.

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                                                                                                        [–]Blooregard_Q_Kazoo_ 1714 ポイント1715 ポイント  (237子コメント)

                                                                                                        Iranian here, Muslim. I see nothing wrong with this. Integration into a society and adoption of those values seems very normal to me. I am baffled when people call this islamaphobia.

                                                                                                        [–]Precaseptica 56 ポイント57 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                        What could be wrong with it, is if the muslim community is isolationist enough to just stop sending their girls to swimming lessons as a response to this. Which is what they have said they would do.

                                                                                                        One pool in Copenhagen had special glass installed on the sides of the building, so people (pedos) couldn't look in. The pool was for 5 year olds and below.

                                                                                                        [–]7734128 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                        Isn't an ability to swim required in the educational system like it is here in Sweden? And if it is, wouldn't that violate the compulsory education?

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                                                                                                          [–]jc2821 652 ポイント653 ポイント  (129子コメント)

                                                                                                          There's a tendency for liberals in the west to view anything than a complete acceptance of the most repressive parts of Islam as bigotry against Muslims, completely dismissing the fact that moderate Muslims exist who might have other concerns such as human rights or integration into societies that supersede their religious texts

                                                                                                          [–]Blooregard_Q_Kazoo_ 307 ポイント308 ポイント  (21子コメント)

                                                                                                          Thank you for the reply. I strive to understand the differing points of view, yet I admit it's difficult when I see hardliners in any theology trying to defend practices that can be viewed by some to be oppressive. I want my daughters to be free, and unashamed, and ultimately seamlessly integrate comfortably into a modern society. It is truly my greatest wish. God be willing.

                                                                                                          [–]Checkoutmyrims 83 ポイント84 ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                                                                          You sound like a good dad :)

                                                                                                          [–]nmqsqygsyps 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                          Hardliners can't be abetted, places like Belgium have been handing out generous benefits and turning a blind eye to people preaching violence against other Belgians, and often not policing and jailing assholes who need a long, hard term of hard labor to sort out their religious insanity. Israel similarly has a whole giant class of religious fanatics who, through the brilliance of parliamentary politics, are similarly coddled and basically are a burden to the rest of society.

                                                                                                          [–]yeayeaok 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                          The interesting thing about the Israel point you made is that their proportion of the population (and political power) is steadily increasing while they contribute basically nothing to the state and don't even serve in the IDF. It will be interesting how it shakes out in the long run, but Israel is likely to tear itself apart. Not many of the people who bash Israel constantly (with some justification in the case of settlements) understand what a shitshow Israeli politics is.

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                                                                                                            [–]ProfessorPickaxe 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                            Fellow dad here (American). I wish the same thing for my daughter. Openmindedness will hopefully save the world for your kids as well as mine :)

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                                                                                                              [–]Occi- 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                              "Liberal" can mean something different entirely in a Northern European country such as Denmark, and USA, mind you. Using "the west" in conjunction with "liberal" is therefore often ambigious and should be avoided. I still agree with your post, though.

                                                                                                              [–]VerySharpCup 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                              Ever since Americans started using the word 'liberal' on the Internet en masse, I'm not sure I even understand what it means anymore. I always thought it was a good thing to identify as, but the way I see some Americans use it, it seems akin to self identifying as an idiot.

                                                                                                              I'm genuinely confused.

                                                                                                              [–]ramble_tamble [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                              A liberal in Europe means economic liberalism, or what Americans would call conservative, at least in the traditional sense of advocating free markets. Not so much with the social issues.

                                                                                                              A liberal in the US has meant many things but can range from someone who leans socialist to someone who, as in this case, argues for enabling and empowering the worst and most violent cultures even if it means the destruction of their own culture. That's where it gets its "foolish" reputation from.

                                                                                                              [–]myrddyna 82 ポイント83 ポイント  (32子コメント)

                                                                                                              There's a tendency for liberals in the west to view anything than a complete acceptance of the most repressive parts of Islam as bigotry against Muslims

                                                                                                              is there? I have worked in politics and with many social workers who are extremely left leaning, and never have encountered this notion. Maybe in theoretical arguments in college, but most liberals understand that in our society your rights (no matter what you think they are) pretty much end if you break laws, or impose yourself on another.

                                                                                                              I'd laugh out loud at someone that told me that genital mutilation in girls was something that should be respected or I was anti-Islam.

                                                                                                              [–]billy_tables 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                              I'd laugh out loud at someone that told me that genital mutilation in girls was something that should be respected or I was anti-Islam.

                                                                                                              I'd be surprised if you heard that from the mainstream. Though then again, the mainstream US at least is still getting it's head around the idea that maybe it shouldn't mutilate newborn's penises.

                                                                                                              [–]myrddyna 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                              the idea that maybe it shouldn't mutilate newborn's penises.

                                                                                                              yup, religion is weird.

                                                                                                              [–]LargeMonty 59 ポイント60 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                              I think it's mostly a conservative myth.

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                                                                                                                  [–]Mjolnir2000 51 ポイント52 ポイント  (22子コメント)

                                                                                                                  Are there many people calling this islamaphobia? I'm not saying you're lying - just I'm as liberal as they come, and I think this is fine, so I'm curious who you've heard this from. I take issue with things like banning burkas, since there's a question of personal choice there, but I don't see any reason that public swimming pools should have to form their policies around religious beliefs.

                                                                                                                  [–]laowaispy 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                                                                                  Iranians are not really conservative, especially compared to Saudi Arabians.

                                                                                                                  [–]SyncTek 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                                  Just about every public and private facility i have used (gym, pool, studio) has had women's only hours. I can remember things that way long before Muslim immigration became a problem for the West.

                                                                                                                  I am fully in agreement with scraping gender only hours but they have existed long before Muslim immigrant women started using them. Muslim immigrant women are being used as the basis for scraping these gender specific hours and that in my opinion is Islamophobia.

                                                                                                                  [–]fredrk 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                  I think the counter argument is more like since these are cultures heavily dominated by the males, the women can't change rules themself. The difference for these women this change makes is just that they can't go swimming anymore and gets even more disconnected from society.

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                                                                                                                    [–]Average-as-hell 481 ポイント482 ポイント  (187子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Here in the UK we have woman only gyms, woman only excersize sessions, woman only swimming.....

                                                                                                                    Nothing to do with religion but some woman don't feel comfortably wearing a swimsuit around the men. Whether thats because they feel unsafe or that they have severe body image issues.

                                                                                                                    I don't have an answer for this I am afraid. I can see benefits on both sides of the coin

                                                                                                                    [–]DamnRobots 57 ポイント58 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                                    My local pools in the UK offers women only and men only swim sessions. The pool is also closed for swim lessons (child and adult), splash sessions for children and for sessions such as aquanatal and aqua aerobics for over 50s and adult only sessions. Any of these could be seen as discriminatory but no one has a problem with this, been this way for years. Pool is open 11am until 10pm most days, 7 days a week. It works.

                                                                                                                    [–]Reedit_girl 168 ポイント169 ポイント  (74子コメント)

                                                                                                                    UK girl here. A few of my non-religious friends wouldn't go swimming if they couldn't go to a women's only pool. I don't understand it myself, a woman will probably judge your body more than a man will.

                                                                                                                    My local pool has women only hours but only 1hr a week, and the swim club or local schools taking over the pool for hours a day is more annoying. I guess if you're paying membership and can't go in the pool simply because of being male and the women with membership can waltz through then that would be annoying, but if women's swimming had a different membership and acted like a club I think that would be fairer. I think that's how it works in my city but I've never actually been to a women's only session.

                                                                                                                    I'm in a city though and there's plenty of sports centres so at least in my city we can join a bigger one that doesn't close if it really bothers us.

                                                                                                                    [–]estherf1 101 ポイント102 ポイント  (66子コメント)

                                                                                                                    I don't think it has much to do with being judged by them. This kind of things are great for women who have been sexually abused, or just don't feel comfortable with being around men for whatever reason.

                                                                                                                    [–]HA92 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                                                                                                    Ok I get what you're saying, and I really do understand the complexity and severity that can come with trauma, but there are two reasons this isn't so helpful:

                                                                                                                    1. Swimming or wearing swimwear shouldn't be viewed as a sexual behaviour. Reinforcing this belief can hurt (and even cast unecessary guilt or blame upon) victims. A better approach is, if inappropriate sexual behaviour was occurring at a pool, that shouldn't be tolerated because it's not appropriate in that kind of place. This of course is not the main issue in all cases, so refer to point 2 as well:

                                                                                                                    2. In cases of trauma or anxiety, the end goal is to have someone as functional, rehabilitated, and resilient as possible. Encouraging avoidance will only worsen someone's life and function. It's the easy path but it's not helpful. Yes, gradual exposure is important, but this should be done carefully and in a structured way with clear goals for increasing exposure - not just having open ended and even advocated avoidance for the whole of the public.

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                                                                                                                      [–]Monsterra 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                      I'm atheist and actually prefer going swimming on women only days, not because of any body image issues (although it's not that I think I have a perfect body or anything). A lot of guys think that being in a swimsuit at a public pool is an open invitation to try to chat me up or stare and it gets old very fast. As I am an introvert their behaviour makes me unbelievably uncomfortable and often means I am interrupted while trying to workout, this has been happening since I was about 12. I've always had a pear shaped body, and was pretty athletic, so men started leering and being inappropriate at an age where I didn't have the mental maturity to stand up for myself or to left them know of my disinterest, and even though I can now, it's a tiring thing to do when I just want to be left alone to workout.

                                                                                                                      Women only pool sessions are like a breath of fresh air, where I don't have to try to find the most covered up swimsuit or cover myself with a towel as soon as I get out of the water so that I won't be chatted up or have a bunch or guys either trying to subtlety look or outright leer at me.

                                                                                                                      (I'm aware that this my comment sounds like a humblebrag, but I honestly just hate being chatted up or creepily watched when I am semi nude, it's uncomfortable enough when I am fully clothed!)

                                                                                                                      [–]funnyimagehostname 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                      a woman will probably judge your body more than a man will.

                                                                                                                      Your friends aren't afraid of silent judgement.

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                                                                                                                          [–]MrMoulden 55 ポイント56 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                                          Danish here. I remember hearing a debate about this in the radio, starring one of the city council members and one of the women who had actively been using the segmented swimming hours.

                                                                                                                          As I remember it, the debate was not so much about religion, but more about equal gender rights and how they should appear in form of the public service facilities. The woman in the debate herself stated that she was a regular Danish woman, not practicing Islam, and her reason for using the women only swimming hours was based on her insecurity regarding physical attractiveness. The city council thought that having these woman only swimming hours within the regular opening hours was discriminating, and that if they were needed should be facilitated by private clubs. These clubs would be free to rent the facilities outside of the regular opening hours. I suppose the decision was taken as a result of the council not wanting to signal that they support gender segmentation.

                                                                                                                          [–]idreamofcalculus 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                          My local public pools in the US have women only swim times. It's framed at a matter of safety. Unless these times are offered, some women won't learn to swim. And in Seattle, where there is so much water everywhere, people really ought to know how.

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                                                                                                                            [–]apple_kicks 59 ポイント60 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                                                                            pretty sure women only swimming session didn't start because of muslim women

                                                                                                                            [–]hoffi_coffi 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                            Seems like yet another thing no one would really give a shit about if it didn't involve Muslims. My local pool has kids' swimming lessons, over 60s sessions, it closes entirely for parties occasionally. If there is some Muslim session for their own silly reasons (not wanting to be seen in a state of undress, or something) on a Sunday evening, who bloody cares.

                                                                                                                            [–]useafterfree 270 ポイント271 ポイント  (73子コメント)

                                                                                                                            Orthodox Jews also require separate pools/swim times

                                                                                                                            https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/07/nyregion/gender-segregated-swimming-cut-back-at-2-public-pools-near-brooklyn-hasidic-areas.html

                                                                                                                            I know its fashionable to hate on muslims these days but its worth remembering that other religions can be equally silly. That said this seems like the right choice for a public pool.

                                                                                                                            [–]I_Know_What_Happened 50 ポイント51 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                            Yep worked for a Jewish Y and boss fucked up and scheduled me to work as lifeguard during one of the sessions. I sat there for 10 min wondering why these women were mean mugging me. Then my boss came in told me to get into his office and told me about the fuck up.

                                                                                                                            [–]chessczar 146 ポイント147 ポイント  (47子コメント)

                                                                                                                            It's quite clear that the issue is fundamentalism, which is not specific to any one religion

                                                                                                                            [–]RochelleH 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                                            Dude, I once lived with an Orthodox Jew (and a regular Jew at the same time, so I got to compare). The Orthodox guy used to get up at some ridiculous hour and drive out to bathe under a waterfall or a spring or something.Apparently this was some kind of religious ritual. Cray.

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                                                                                                                              [–]J_hoff 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                              As a frequent user of the public pools in Denmark, I don't think it's fair that I can't be there at certain times just because someone doesn't think my gender is correct. If a person wishes to exclude one gender, I think they should re-evaluate if they should use said facility.

                                                                                                                              [–]ToolPackinMama 55 ポイント56 ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                                                                                                              When in Rome...

                                                                                                                              [–]enigmical 129 ポイント130 ポイント  (208子コメント)

                                                                                                                              What century are we living in where this is even an issue?

                                                                                                                              [–]walgman 161 ポイント162 ポイント  (169子コメント)

                                                                                                                              British swimmer here. I work away a lot and womens only swim sessions are pretty common and it's nothing religious. Really pisses me off.

                                                                                                                              I was up to Burton on Trent Monday - Friday finishing work at 7. Tuesday was the only day the baths were open to male swimmers. Women had three evenings available to them. It's not uncommon.

                                                                                                                              [–]CardMoth 62 ポイント63 ポイント  (163子コメント)

                                                                                                                              Gyms too. There are lots of female-only gyms. Haven't encountered any male-only ones.

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                                                                                                                                [–]Shoutcake 55 ポイント56 ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                                                                                                                Disabled autist here. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, and a string of rapes, the most recent having occurred last year. Mixed swimming facilities would be a huge issue for me. My carer is trying to help me leave the house for the first time and swimming is one of the activities she has in mind as it is a low impact way of exercise that won't put me under too much strain. I could absolutely not go to a mixed swimming pool.

                                                                                                                                [–]RustyToad 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                                Thanks for giving the opposing view, that's not easy to do and adds to the conversation. I hope you enjoy swimming, it is great fun!

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                                                                                                                                    [–]kymki 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                                                                                    In Sweden we had an orienteering school that, at the end of it, had an open air shower for all participants regardless of sex. There were no complaints. I think that is a great way to remove some of the drama of being naked in front each other.

                                                                                                                                    [–]miketwo345 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                                    If you go to a sauna in Germany, it's mixed everything. Mixed changing rooms, mixed showers, mixed saunas. Go on a weekend and it's just throngs of naked people next to each other, not giving a f'. Like Woodstock but sweatier and asexual.

                                                                                                                                    I'll admit, it was a little jarring at first (I'm an American), but after about 15 minutes I adjusted. It actually was nice because you realize that people come in all shapes and sizes, and you just blend in. I lost some body-image issues that day.

                                                                                                                                    [–]skysailer 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                                    During my military Basic training we had group showers. Men and women were supposed to shower After each other for privacy reasons, but since we were always short on time we often showered together. No one complained, probably because everyone was too exhaustet to care.

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                                                                                                                                      [–]Bezulba 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                                                                                      I don't get why this is a big deal? If women (or men, or apache attack helicopters) want to go to a womens (or men, or apache attack helicopters) only event, why the hell not? Apparently they don't really want to go to a mixed swimming session. So why is this a problem?

                                                                                                                                      I'm a fat fuck, i would not be comfortable in a mixed sauna for example, should i be forced to go to a mixed sauna instead of one that's male only?

                                                                                                                                      [–]McFlynder 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                                      The problem is that these weekly events took place during regular opening hours. With the amount of taxes we pay (+ the horribly expensive monthly membership at the pool), everyone should be able to use a public pool as they please. I'm a woman and I completely understand why they shut down the women-only swimming events.

                                                                                                                                      Mixed saunas are a thing, by the way - you're just not allowed to be naked. Very few in Denmark think this is a bad thing. And if they do, they just visit a pool with women/men only saunas.

                                                                                                                                      EDIT: a letter

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                                                                                                                                        [–]Larakine 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (25子コメント)

                                                                                                                                        To be honest, this will likely just prevent women from being able to swim. It's on them that they feel uncomfortable swimming with men, but taking away their option not to, means they will likely just give up swimming...

                                                                                                                                        I felt conflicted going to the women only swimming sessions, on the one hand no creepy old men (not all that common occurrence but common enough to make me feel self conscious), on the other hand it's not fair to discriminate by gender.

                                                                                                                                        Edit: typos & autocorrect

                                                                                                                                        [–]lebippitybop 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                                                                                        This issue is always brought up at my university because we have a women's room and the men constantly complain about it. I can understand their sentiments but at the same time I also think that if men wanted a mens-only session all they have to do is ask for one. There are women only sessions clearly because there is a demand for them. I understand that men may not be taken so seriously for requesting such sessions but surely if they were keen enough to start some sort of campaign they would have the same sessions available.

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                                                                                                                                          [–]jasz32 72 ポイント73 ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                                                                                                                          (Liberal) American here. My interpretation of freedom of religion entails freedom from religion; no citizen should face the burden of having any religion imposed upon them, this seems to follow that doctrine.

                                                                                                                                          [–]baap_ko_mat_sikha 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                                          Technically that's secularism. But yeah I get your point.

                                                                                                                                          [–]F0sh 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                                          Having women-only swimming times is not imposing religion on anybody.

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                                                                                                                                            [–]Pelkhurst 58 ポイント59 ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                                                                                                                            Orthodox Jews do not support male/female bathing and other activities, even calling for sequestering women during menstruation, but I don't recall seeing any fuss raised about that in Europe or elsewhere. Is this concern just because Muslims?

                                                                                                                                            [–]mludd 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                                                            This is probably due to the fact that there are a lot more Muslims than Jews.

                                                                                                                                            For example, according to Wikipedia (because I'm being lazy) there are around 10 000 ethnic Jews in Denmark while approximately 3% of the population are Muslims. With a population of 5.7 million that adds up to roughly 170 000 Muslims or 17 times as many Muslims as Jews.

                                                                                                                                            [–]factsforreal 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                                            Well, there have been no reports about Jewish women-only swimming here in DK. But had there been I'm sure the reaction would have been almost exactly the same. I write 'almost', since there are no problems with Jews in Denmark, so they have some social capital to draw on. Muslims as a group is a less rosy story, so there is a lower willingness to bend to yet another demand from their side.

                                                                                                                                            [–]lvcons 56 ポイント57 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                                                            Try calling out the Jews, I dare you. I wish all these shitty fucking religions got the stick for their sexism.

                                                                                                                                            [–]ScriptThat 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                                            TBH Denmark isn't shy about calling Jews out either. It's only two months ago we had a huge debate on whether to make circumcision illegal for minors.

                                                                                                                                            [–]vanearthquake 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                                            Well there would be a lot less circumcision now that's for damn sure. I can't imagine a lot of 18 year old would be stoked to have someone clean cut his hooded homie

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                                                                                                                                              [–]mallettsmallett 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                                                              I would read the story, but as it's the daily mail, I'm not generating any traffic to that site.

                                                                                                                                              [–]Ruxini [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                                              Dane here. We've had voluntary segregated swimming for decades - it only became a problem when politicians found out it was also used by muslims. I have a friend who worked there and know the muslim girls involved. Most are teenagers who, like every other teenager, is under their parents command. When segregated swimming disappears, they will no longer be allowed to go swimming at all. This is absolutely unfair to them and not fitting for a modern society. Still, they are victims with absolutely no power and no voice in any debate anywhere. Young muslim women and girls are the most marginalised group in danish society. Islam may be an evil religion and all that, but these girls are innocent. They have nowhere to go, nobody to help them - that is except from the local mosque, where they will be guided towards a life and a philosophy that is detrimental to them and to society. Banning, judging, excluding and condemning will not help them or us. Islam cannot be destroyed like that. No amount of bans, walls or bombs will break the human desire to be understood and loved. People will go where ever they will be accepted - and if the fear-mongering, terrorist-breeding local mosque is the only place that will accept them, then that is where they will go. This is not an easy problem to fix. There is no "catch all" solution. No simple law or philosophy that will make the problem go away. If we want to get people to leave Islam and its' archaic ways we must provide them with - and welcome them to - a better alternative. Why is there no dialogue with the girls and women using the swimming hall? Why don't we try to reach some sort of compromise? Change comes slowly and gradually. If we truly want the change, we have to walk the walk not just talk the talk. We have to invest time and effort into understanding the reality of the lives we want to change. No easy solution will ever present itself. It is of absolutely no use to be what we call a "halal-hippie" who accepts everything and it doesn't help to do the opposite, accepting nothing and banning everything. We are dealing with real, actual people who find themselves in an extremely complex situation, torn between cultures, values, traditions, customs and habits. And they have very limited resources to deal with this. Please make your own mind up, but please consider the possibility that if your conclusion is easy to state then it might also have been a bit too easy to reach.

                                                                                                                                              [–]TraitorKiller 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                                                              that's perfectly fine imo; just because they follow a religion doesn't mean public benefits should be taken away from men for hours at a time.

                                                                                                                                              [–]andybev01 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                                                              After all, every one of us begin life as the best swimmer.

                                                                                                                                              [–]JeanValjean197o 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                                                              Wut?

                                                                                                                                              Women have been getting "women only" shit for decades. Suddenly, Muslims come and want "women only" shit and suddenly it's not right.

                                                                                                                                              Hear that ladies. You need to learn how to live with men rather than separating yourselves in your own special places.

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