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Sharon gives the best possible contribution to the bio queen debate. (twitter.com)

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[–]baixiaolangTatianna/Phi Phi 107 ポイント108 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Whether bio queens do or don't belong on drag race is one thing. The blatant misogyny in some of these comments, however is very disappointing.

[–]durgooAlaska Thunderfuck 5000 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We don't really know if it'd go well or even make a difference but I agree, flat-out misogynistic comments..

[–]thebookgiant 50 ポイント51 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I feel like if a Bio Queen was put on drag race they would get hate from fans of the show, claiming that they are at an advantage! As much as I love some of them, it's too much drama to have a bio queen on...

[–]FrannyMac_Shangela? 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This. "She was at an advantage because she didn't have to do ---, that meant she had more time to work on her sewing challenge / learning lines / etc"

You'd be setting someone up to come out with a bad edit and most likely, unless they were super sickening, a bad taste in the mouth of fans of anyone they sent home because of the above. (& if they they were first out, then well it would be "why were they on in the first place")

[–]wegsmijtaccountGinger Minj 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I feel like I, as a bio woman, would have way more work to do on my body for it to look dragtastic as, say, courtney act.

Ok, that's perhaps a little bit of a bad example, but still. Almost every bio woman would have to use just as much padding and/or corsetry as a drag queen to look like 'drag'.

I get where you're comming from, don't get me wrong, and who am I, as a drag outsider (straight 30 year old mom...) to make a comment. But still, I feel like the advantage a bio woman has might not be as great as you think it is. No woman looks like, for instance Roxxxy Andrews or Alaska. God, I wish, haha.

[–]puzzles13Tatianna 132 ポイント133 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I personally like bio queens, but I don't think they belong on drag race. If you want to have bio queens on a tv show, make your own show.

[–]Lyco_499What's your vaginal vineyard year? 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My thoughts exactly. Drag Race is a specific competition, I don't think Bio Queens would be right for the show in the same way that I don't think a lot of specific Drag Queens would be right for the show.

People seem to have trouble separating Drag Race and Drag itself. Probably speaks volumes about where their actual knowledge and interest lie.

[–]nonailsnodragTatianna 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (0子コメント)

this. I like them but they don't belong on drag race

[–]emergencycat17Delusion, By Jinkx Monsoon 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a cis woman, I completely 100% agree with you.

[–]OhComets 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not sure I'm adding to the discussion at all, but what exactly do people on this sub consider as being a bio queen- is it just when girls do drag inspired makeup or when they actually go to clubs and perform? Because I see a fair amount of people talking about exaggerated makeup, but that isn't limited to the world of drag queens. Why sharon herself recreated (without crediting) a look by the amazingly talented vanessa davis recently (and only a small handful of rugirls could ever paint at her level). You can't look at makeup artists like her and not see the passion for the art form that is makeup- that also extends far beyond the world of drag. If girls are inspired by drag queens and want to make really cool art because of it, let them do it. Makeup has long been something that girls have done because of society's beauty standards- can even be seen as a form of oppression in itself- and it's cool to see them turn it into something else entirely- legitimate and totally subversive art.

I don't think bio queens should be on drag race though. IDK, this is probably a separate argument in itself.... just tired of exaggerated makeup/drag inspired makeup being dismissed...cis-gendered women have just as much right as drag queens to turn makeup into art however they choose to wield it.

[–]MissSteakI just feel the way that I feel and that's good enough for me 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

But see, people are talking as if makeup is the main part of doing drag. Which is completely not true. Would you say that Jinkx (no shade) are not drag queens then cause their makeup skills arent perfection? What makes drag drag is it's own critique or play on gender. It's "putting on clothes" of "another gender" (Esther Newton). Women CAN'T do drag unless they are drag kings. They can put on exaggerated make-up and do burlesque or do exaggerated performances... but that's not drag. And that's strictly going by the definition. Unfortunately these kinda things need to exist, cause there needs to be some sort of limit in these things. As said before, drag is a fundamental part of LGBT culture, and women feeling offended or like something is being taken away from them is bullshit.

[–]OhComets 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You make good points and I agree. My point was more why are women who do exaggerated makeup being immediately called out for wanting to be bio queens, when many of them just like the art form. Many of them don't use the term drag for their art. It was more of a response to what people were commenting in this thread about why women would want to dress or do makeup like this and less of a response to the discussion Sharon was having

[–]MissSteakI just feel the way that I feel and that's good enough for me 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh, fair enough. ;)

[–]sneaselKatya Zamolodchikova 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My only problem is Drag being an art form created by generally trans women and gay men...I don't see why cis women are really able to get that offended by being excluded from a minority culture that wasn't theres to begin with and didn't contribute to creating/nuturing in the face of oppression. I'm not saying cis women aren't oppressed...

[–]redyellowandAlyssa Edwards 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've said this earlier, but basically as soon as I found out what a bio/faux queen was I was like "THIS IS ME"–I've always been drawn to a sort of exaggerated femininity as an aesthetic choice.

However, I think more than "dressing up as girls", drag is a political statement on gender performance, and a woman dressing up as a woman–however exaggerated the femininity–is just not as inherently political as a man doing it.

Bio-queens, drag queens, and drag kings are all working towards the same artistic goal of showing that gender is a performance (while having fun doing it), but I think for the sake of a show there should be separate categories.

That being said, there are some really cool bio queens. I fucking live for Creme Fatale.

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 66 ポイント67 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I agree that Drag Race is not the platform for bio queens,but it's very interesting to see the man from this sub claiming that they can't do an art that is based on their gender.

[–]actinorhodinparty like Poundcake 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Everyone is absolutely entitled to fuck with gender in an artistic way however they please, and I agree that some commentary on this sub about "bio queens" is just straight up misogyny. But I think there's a lot of legitimate frustration about people who aren't queer taking an interest in the flashiest, most interesting parts of queer culture and wanting to be treated with the same esteem as people who have had to go through all kinds of shit to pursue their art.

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I'm often frustrated with non queer people myself for those exact same reasons. But it's always important to remember that many bio queens are in some spectrum of the LGBT community. Our fear that non queer people are invading our spaces shouldn't keep us from supporting the artists who ARE lgbt+.

I also noticed that this sub doesn't have much problem with straight man who are drag queens (which are rare,but exist) but seem to be excessively bothered about the straight women.

[–]actinorhodinparty like Poundcake 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There can absolutely be an overlap with visually-OTT sort of queer femme culture - and I completely agree that people doing good art deserve respect. But there are also a lot of "aspiring bio queens" on social media who would never, ever have considered themselves to be doing "drag" if they didn't love RPDR. They should absolutely be able to express themselves artistically - but they're dealing with very minimal risk in what they're doing and that's going to affect people's perceptions.

Your second paragraph is dead on, tbh. Straight women are probably more likely to have interesting things to say about performance of "femininity" than straight guys. But there's a lot of conflicted worship of "masculinity" around, plus only thinking people are interesting/worthwhile if you want to fuck them. I bet a conventionally attractive straight guy could rake in the cash doing drag if he played his cards right.

[–]rifoistBioqueens = gentrification. 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know people who could be considered a bio queen this woman and Lady Miss Kier for example. Notice they've both been around before RPDR. It's not like women can't do 'drag' elsewhere.

[–]RisqueBlockI wonder what the straights think -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

What about being a bio queen puts you on the LGBTQ+ spectrum. Is it the makeup or hair?

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Being a bisexual/lesbian/pansexual/asexual woman.

[–]RisqueBlockI wonder what the straights think 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Then you're on the spectrum regardless.. I guess the main point is that bio queens aren't doing anything revolutionary or 'shocking'. When you don a beautiful costume and are painted for the gods, society is used to that. It may be amazing but it just lacks 'oopmh' compared, ya know?

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's another point,I never said that bio queens were automatically inserted in the community simply for doing drag.

And it seems to be a common mentality in this sub that all bio queens do is fishy,glamorous drag. Ignoring the genderfuck,dragula and different styles they also do seems to be common as well.

[–]RisqueBlockI wonder what the straights think 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not just thinking fishy. I checked out Amber cause she was mentioned here. Very stylistic, not just fish, same sentiment though

[–]Halloqween 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Look up cremefatale and tell me that's not drag son

[–]larsrrosenCharlie Hides 45 ポイント46 ポイント  (20子コメント)

honestly couldn't agree more

[–]robbysaurChi Chi's "Good" Wig 61 ポイント62 ポイント  (19子コメント)

And it drives me crazy, because that girl sounds so entitled. She literally says in a later tweet that, "bio queens are discriminated against in gay clubs." Fucking really?

Here's a link to one of my posts from yesterday where my previous roommate has decided she may not want to go to drag shows anymore, because "drag queens don't care about her as a woman." Like, child, y'all can walk into any club all dolled up, and people would be living. Can I not get one fucking space where it's about queers and trans* people for a split second?

[–]actinorhodinparty like Poundcake 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly, if you're someone who's reasonably immersed in queer culture and has interesting things to say about gender, I don't give a shit about your birth gender in the drag context. But if you're one of the many thousands of straight people who just really likes makeup and likes Drag Race a lot... put on your makeup, have fun, but you're not a transgressive artist and you probably wouldn't make very interesting TV.

[–]brendanrouth2Nina Bonina Brown 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I always amazes me how insecure men/white people/straight people can be about not having their own special little spaces. No there's no explicitly identified "straight clubs" or a White History Month or a Men's Resource Center, because guess what, everything else already is that. So deal with it if like 0.01% of spaces in the entire fucking world aren't made for you.

[–]Halloqween 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (15子コメント)

No. Women in general, regardless of their sexuality, aren't always welcomed in gay spaces. There's definitely a problem with gay men being sexist towards women. A large part about drag is imitating women. So drag queens can portray women as hypersexual, vulgar, clowns, etc. etc. but then turn around and shun any women who may want to participate. Drag is an artform and bioqueens can certainly drag themselves up just as much as men. Look at cremefatale on Instagram. I'm not saying bioqueens should go on RuPaul's Drag Race, but I have a huge fucking problem with people delegitimatizing bioqueens and their talents, worth, and value. Drag is constantly evolving and I think bioqueens have just as much of a right to be included in the club scene.

Also, what if the bioqueen is queer herself? Is she allowed in your queer space or nah?

[–]McFlufflesTheSavage 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (6子コメント)

No, because at least for me as a transgender person, I appreciate drag as a space for transfeminine people, I.e. queer men and trans women (and all the other shades of that), not as a general "queer" scene for cis women too. That's exactly the point Sharon is making- it's a unique experience to be a transfeminine person, we should be able to make a little space for ourselves in that. I'm still welcoming to cis women (queer or straight, queer women are often worse than straight women in my experience anyway), but all this entitled bullshit needs to end.

P.S. transmisogyny is also a kind of misogyny, and the comments from cis women that flood a lot of these spaces are often transphobic. Not denying that many queer men and trans people are also sexist, but you all don't get to use misogyny as a crutch to be entitled to all this.

[–]gender_fuckedAlyssa Edwards 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Preach gurl

[–]Halloqween -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Transmisogyny comes from all areas in the drag community. I for one don't have a problem with trans inclusiveness, but I don't see what that has to do with whether cis women can participate or not. Maybe cisgender women do feel entitled, so what? It wouldn't be an issue if the drag community was all gender inclusive.

[–]McFlufflesTheSavage 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Trans women and gay men made drag as a space to be free and express their femininity- and that's still the purpose drag serves for many of us today. In Valentina's interview today they talked about how the show is an escape for so many people that can't be their true selves otherwise. Drag isn't just a random fun zone, it has a serious and lifesaving history too for many people. I am all for including people, but what I am not for is this entitlement and ignorance of what drag has been and continues to be for many. Even the most basic history like Paris is Burning shows the roots of drag in (Black) trans women and gay men's cultures- I would watch that if you haven't for more context.

[–]embotbeta 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're right. Drag evolved from safe spaces for trans women and gay men. It has also evolved into a unique art form that doesn't equate to "men wearing women's clothing." I think the debate here is determining whether drag's origins and original purpose- continuing purpose, actually- should determine who participates in the art form overall. I agree with you but I also have no issue with cis queens, and I think the idea of cis queens "proving" that they understand the significance of the art form before they do it is just a little wonky, though I do agree that understanding drag's purpose for gay men and trans women is critical. It's complicated.

[–]McFlufflesTheSavage 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have no issue inherently with cis queens either, though I can respect people like Sharon that do, and if a group or club wanted to not have bioqueens that's up to them - RuPaul doesn't want bioqueens on the show for example and I think that's up to her. My only issue is that so many cis women feel entitled to be in these spaces, or feel that they get to be entitled as long as they are "good" and have learned some basic stuff. The pattern I see with bioqueens isn't them being invited in, but rather forcing themselves in. But that's just what I've seen.

[–]yelowin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a queer afab person, I personally (plan on --boarding school won't let me do shit so far) do drag not to express pent-up femininity but almost to mock it and mock the rules of the gender binary? I don't shave on a regular basis, do makeup , etc and people always make fun of me for that and shit and idk I just feel like doing a really silly, exaggerated form of a woman for art and for expression is really a fun and political way to say fuck you I do what I want, you know?

[–]embotbeta 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Thank you for this comment, holy shit. They're making all these "we hate straight people, not women" claims, but the veiled misogyny gets super obvious when they always phrase things as if women=not queer. It's total crap.

[–]Halloqween 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (6子コメント)

That's the thing. You can't separate gender and sexuality. Gay men see it as "oh there's women here clearly they're all straight and taking over our precious queer scene!!!" but it really just comes across as a boy's club no women allowed type thing. You probably have no idea what their sexuality is and quite frankly it's none of your business. But gay men are gonna be pissed about it either way.

[–]sillylilthrow -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

It only comes across that way if you're ignoring the inherent differences in privileges and lived experiences.

Fact is, straight women DO come in, usurp queer scenes in a fetishized way, and ruin the fun and comfort for others. Even queer women.

Fact is, queer women and queer men are only connected by their minority sexuality status. The lived experience of both groups doesn't overlap in a wholly inclusive way.

Fact is, you're talking about gay men being misogynistic in a ridiculously generalized way, and if I were going by the same standards as you, I'd be clocking your thinly veiled homophobia right now (but I'm not cause your litmus test is just jacked).

Fact is, drag is inherently political, inherently different based on what lived gender experiences the queen brings to the table, and inherently much more ingrained as an art for people who at one point had a penis.

It isn't JUST about sexuality, it's about a historical story arc that vibes through and permeates the art form. Queer cis women can create their own statement through the art, and that should be respected and celebrated, but it's never going to be the same. Let's stop ignoring that drag doesn't pay well, and queer and trans men don't have the same opportunity outside of the queer space to do the same thing.

Queer women have other opportunities that queer men just do not. And then to talk about cis straight women... who have even more opportunities, and the resounding privilege to just "walk out" of that space and be treated in a totally different way ... it isn't just about boys club no girls allowed. It's about "feminist spaces provide you opportunities for political and artistic expression inclusive to the whole lady gender and absolutely exclusive to the cis queer male gender" and yet you're coming for hard fought spaces and opportunities that don't conform and yet requesting them to conform just so you have more opportunity that the other side can't access or create.

Basically, check your privilege. Gay men don't have the luxury of performing their political and artistic expressions in the same ways and maybe the conversation should be about providing inclusivity to the queer and trans communities before it's a conversation on "wow gay men have one thing I don't, that's misogyny".

[–]Halloqween 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I was done the minute you said ~even queer women ruin queer spaces~ like bye 👋

Oh and then again when you implied I'm homophobic. Did you just assume my sexuality? Lmao byyyeeeee.

[–]sillylilthrow 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You gotta be the next Katya in the making with the mental gymnastics you had to do to come up with THOSE as your takeaways.

Literally didn't say that queer women ruin queer spaces.

Literally said by your own metric it's homophobia but your metric is wrong and dumb. Also even queer people can be homophobic so lol at "assuming your sexuality" or gender anywhere.

Ps - actually wasn't coming for you previously. So I'm honestly kinda sorry if you took it that way and if I was being a dick in how I responded at first.

[–]Halloqween 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

[–]embotbeta 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be honest, as a lesbian who's into drag, sometimes drag queens can be misogynist af. There are many examples of this. For just one, I've gone to events where queens forget to call out "straight women" instead of just "women." It's super alienating. Especially where all of these gay men are looking at me like "oh she's invading our space." Bitch, I'm a dyke!

[–]tropitango 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

this thread is giving me a headache

[–]PoppyFields666 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just because you have boobs doesn't mean you are a good drag queen or fully realized character. Plenty of drag queens are women - Wendy Ho, Michelle Visage, Creme Fatale, etc. drag is playing with characters and gender and shit. That's like saying trans women can't be drag queens either.

[–]hersheskisses 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No Bio queens on drag race sorry girls

[–]Mimi_Im_LastI thought I was a top once 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

She is taking that Danni creature to CHURCH Muwma! Well, it's Sharon, so church of satan. But still.

[–]obsessed1028Sharon & Alaska 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (34子コメント)

I don't understand bio queens. What's the point of a woman dressing up as a woman? I'm seriously asking because I don't get it. (BTW I am a biological female)

[–]katyaskidServing Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Realness 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

As I always say: If you want to be a bio-queen, just move to New Jersey!

[–]Andrecarda96*thwoorp* 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And go join Michael Michelle 😂

[–]deeteeseeThankful for the Flat Tummy Tea 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Women can still exaggerate the ridiculousness of femininity. See Hoku Mama Swamp. That being said, there's a recent wave of 'bio queens' who don't really disrupt the space and just like playing with makeup.

[–]LondonFishAcid Snakey 💊🐍 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Same on all accounts. I think they look amazing though and I wish I could use make up in such creative ways but I find it more fun to see a man transform into a woman than a woman into... a more made up woman.

[–]Andrecarda96*thwoorp* 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (1子コメント)

These lil girls put a bit more of eyeshadow and some faux lashes and think they're doing drag up in dis bitch. They do exactly what every YouTube beauty guru and every famous singer has done. Drag is different, it's hard and it hurts. It has a culture that has been going on for ages before any of these girls (or me tbh) was born. They didn't live the struggle of not even existing until you acknowledge yourself full of fear for rejection because society told billions of people that it's wrong and disgusting. That ain't drag that's just heavier makeup.

[–]nonailsnodragTatianna 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

but its also just getting more dressed up than your average female in a bar. I am typically the only girl wearing high heels and big hair and a tight dress and cleavage in the bar when I go out. I don't even consider myself a bio queen but I take it to a higher level than most regular women. I kinda compare myself to Michelle Visage or Dolly Parton. I am NEVER going to show up in the bar or club with flats or jeans and flat hair. So I don't know what that makes me, but I don't fit in and stand out so its something different I guess.

[–]pilldoll👞 Alyssa Milano 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

i'm not a bio queen (not even female lol) but i imagine its the same reason drag queens do it? some people really like conceptual make up and fashion and drag is just kind of filled with that.

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 51 ポイント52 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Drag is not simply an exaggerated form of womanhood. Does Acid Betty dress as fishy woman? No. Drag is art. That is why it doesn't matter the gender.

Bioqueens get enough shit from the community already,so we don't need this from this sub too.

Edit: lol downvote me to hell if you like,I'm already disappointed in this sub that is supposedly inclusive. Always good to know you are all as prejudiced as the rest of the LGBT+ community.

[–]redyellowandAlyssa Edwards 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Acid Betty just literally dresses up as a fish

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bringing fishy to another level

[–]MissSteakI just feel the way that I feel and that's good enough for me 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's not about being inclusive. Why is this always put on us? "Oh wow I thought you guys were supposed to be inclusive" I don't want to be damn inclusive. This is part of my culture and just cause someone thinks it's pretty and cool doesn't suddenly mean they can go ahead and do it and it's somehow perfectly valid cause "we're already so oppressed so we have to be inclusive". Fuck that. Drag has been a safe place for LGBT community for so long and it has much deeper connotations than just putting on a dress or fishy/heavy makeup, with that I agree with you. You saying how it has nothing to do with gender is completely wrong. Drag has EVERYTHING to do with gender. It's living the gender, reinventing it, experimenting with it, mocking it. Some go as far to cite how "drag is putting on clothes of another gender". Bio queens would just be divas. They are not drag queens. I recommend works from Esther Newton or Judith Butler to get more insight on drag and gender in general.

[–]wegsmijtaccountGinger Minj 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Honest question; how do you feel about trans people doing drag?

Also, how about the 'normalisation' of drag? I know that me, a 30 something straight woman doesn't fit in 'your' world. But I like drag race, and if there was a show near me, I'd like to check it out because it fascinates me. Am I just not welcome if it where up to you or how do you see me?

[–]charlemagne9555Detox Icunt 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't think they're saying you can't go, but as drag has (almost always) been art done by and for queer people, you, as a straight woman, having the privilege to check in and out of the scene can be seen as disrepsectful, regardless of your intentions. This is not the same for the queer people who live that reality; it's not that being a bio-queen is bad, or that you yourself do not fit into a queer context, it's that to put the onus on queer people to have to include you in their space/art is a shitty thing to do when it's not exactly made for you. Add to that the many straight people who do commodify queer culture and use it as social capital, it doesn't surprise me that bio-queens are unincluded.

Many make the mistake of thinking the inclusivity of queer culture obliges them a seat at the table, but that's shortsighted.

[–]wegsmijtaccountGinger Minj 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just to be clear: I have no intentions on being a 'bio queen' or anything. I'd maybe just like to go to a show. And, offcourse, be totally respectfull.

But I do not entirely get your point: you say that being a bio queen is not bad, they should just not expect to be accepted by drag queens because they do not belong. Isn't that the same as saying it's not ok? I mean, I'm honestly asking, because I want to understand you and others's standpoint on this matter because I just not totally get it. Not saying it isn't valid, just that I'd like to understand.

[–]charlemagne9555Detox Icunt 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can see how it's coming across a bit muddled. What I mean is that being a bio-queen does not that entitle one to being included in the queer community when they're not actually queer. I think Sharon's point was to say that bio-queens are legitimate, but in the grand scheme of queer art, (cis, heterosexual) bio-queens should have their own space that doesn't also encroach on a decidedly queer space.

[–]MissSteakI just feel the way that I feel and that's good enough for me 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't go far into analysis of trans people doing drag, in many cases tho, trans people discover their true identity through drag. Kind of like how gay people "discover" their true sexuality through bisexuality. It's a vessel.

And honestly, I don't have an answer to your question. I'd like to say "of course you can come and visit" and be all about being inclusive and open-handed, but I've had so many bad experiences with entitled girls coming over to gay clubs and gay performances and acting like they're in a fucking zoo or something. I'd expect a different kind of behavior from a 30 something woman so idk really. Unfortunately once you go "sure you can all come" you can't really complain about ridiculous entitled behavior, but once you say "LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE" we come across as selfish, assholish pricks.

[–]robbysaurChi Chi's "Good" Wig 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's just that this little gurl who probably don't know nothin' is trying to go back and forth with Sharon, who spent her teen years in a meth house, and had to build herself from the ground up. There's a sense of entitlement there that is irksome. We have bio queens that perform at my local club. They are immersed in drag culture, wear crazy costumes and makeup, I tip them, all that good jazz, but it's like some women are upset that a queer space isn't obsessed with them.

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with everything Sharon said to her. Not everything I'm reading in these comments,though.

[–]RisqueBlockI wonder what the straights think -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

When did you decide I was inclusive?

[–]zyqax 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This! That's neither a challenge nor original. And what exactly is "genderfuck" about bioqueens? You don't mock stereotypes by succumbing to their rules. It wouldn't be Drag Race, it would just be another makeover show.

[–]Sure-YeahKatya Didn´t die for this 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Girl 5gs. If you are a fan of the show you know really well that drag isn´t just use chapstick and mascara. You can be a singer, actor, dancer, lip syncer, make up artist and the combinations are endless.

[–]Gameofthorns8Katya Zamolodchikova 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Agree....media already celebrates biological women to wear makeup, wear heels, etc. Women are celebrated for being showy. Drag queen is such a huge statement and I do not want bio queens to take that space and focus it on them. I LOVE bio queens by the way, I am not trying to say they are less artistic but in terms of drag race, I just disagree that they should compete with drag queens.

[–]pilldoll👞 Alyssa Milano 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (7子コメント)

many - not all - bio queens do very artistic, over the top looks. its more than doing a lil more contouring lol

[–]Gameofthorns8Katya Zamolodchikova 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

But where do you draw the line. A lot of bio women are also learning to do over the top looks with hair and makeup. Heck this has been going on for a long time.

[–]pilldoll👞 Alyssa Milano 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

i draw the line at what is (currently) considered normal. you dont see women bringing looks like amber cadaverous around town do you?

[–]Gameofthorns8Katya Zamolodchikova 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Many bio queens don't do looks like Amber and it's still considered more normal for women to do looks like that.

[–]pilldoll👞 Alyssa Milano 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

then i personally would just consider them as dolling up.

[–]fesh555 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be honest, I see a lot of girls doing makeup like Amber Cadaverous where I live (makeup a little less) and they are seen as like queen bees.

[–]MissSteakI just feel the way that I feel and that's good enough for me 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

But that's a costume then. It's not drag.

[–]pilldoll👞 Alyssa Milano 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

id like to know where youre getting your costumes girl

[–]PlorpfTrixies scream laugh 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Im not the biggest fan of bio queens tbh, its like, older drag queens have struggled so much to make drag what it is and it feels like Bio queens are just trying to join in after all the work is done. They say theyre part of drag culture but they face no discrimination like drag queens do. It just irritates me tbh.

[–]Beharkei 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Perfectly said Sharon.

[–]Shyrangerr 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Mama Ru would be disappointed in almost every single person whose commented. To quote her, "We're ALL born naked and the rest is drag." EVERYONE can do drag. Ru even said herself "The only criteria we scan for on Drag Race is Charisma, Uniqueness, Nerve, and Talent." Not one mention of having to be a certain gender or sexuality.

Most of the views expressed here are also entirely selfish. Talking about how drag is about being queer and overcoming oppression. No it's not. One of my friends, a gay male, just started doing drag the other year. No story of overcoming oppression. Because it's not needed. Because that's now what drag is about. Furthermore, why then try to horde drag to yourselves? If it really is something as incredible and accepting as you say it is, shouldn't you WANT to spread that? See other people embrace that message and then spread it themselves? No, you'd rather try to keep it like a spoiled child and throw a bitch fit when you have to share.

I also saw a comment about how it would be unfair to have a bio queen on the show. "She didn't have to do as much to transform and would have more time to memorize lines, etc." That's some shit that's already gone down. All the talk about how skinny girls can rely on their body and all they have to do is sew some fabric on a corset and call it a dress.

Thanks for letting me know most of y'all on here are some sad, ignorant, raggedy ass bitches.

[–]VoilaNota 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Don't do all that girl, don't do all that. Ru's born naked quote is a comment on society. Society has differing standards for women and men, which I'm sure you are aware, which include the clothes we wear. The more you think about it, the more ridiculous it is — why should only women wear dresses, and men wear ties? But despite how ridiculous it is, society holds fast to it. And drag is what? A reflection of society. Men wearing wigs and dresses, or women painting on a fake beard and dressing up in a tux. Everything they are NOT supposed to. "We're all born naked and the rest is drag" means that a man in a dress is not inherently more wrong than a woman in a dress. But society still thinks it is, trust and believe. Society as a whole still believes in dressing up the nursery in pink or blue depending on a baby's genitalia for god's sake.

So yeah, anyone can do what drag queens do without necessarily having been oppressed. But in my opinion the most powerful statement drag race makes comes not from the sickening makeup or the elaborate costumes or the amazing dance moves. Those are what get us to stick around, and sure, a woman can do that just as a man can. The most powerful statement for me personally comes from just giving airtime to the most basic definition of a drag queen — men in dresses. This very definition causes the majority of the population to view the whole thing as a joke. So.. I don't want to discount the talent of bio queens or anyone else who wants to get up and perform in elaborate makeup and costumes. But what drag represents at its core isn't charisma, uniqueness, nerve, or talent — it's resistance. That's where it came from, and that's why people are protective of it, and I think calling them sad and ignorant is lacking in perspective.

That said, I do hope for more examples of queer expression that aren't so focused on the toeing the gender line, but I'm not sure drag race is the correct outlet for it. We'll see.

[–]syndicateddreamKatya Zamolodchikova 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gurl. This. They'll conquer drag race and we'll invent another art form and the cycle goes on and on. I think straight/queerish women that surround themselves with the gay men are great, and I support it. but know that there is an inherit loneliness and struggle that doesn't apply to effeminate women that does to the effeminate males. Same for butcher women, they get a rougher shake. It's the difference between saying "look how great I fit in" and "look how much I don't care to fit in". We have drag kings, you know? Then again, the new wave of uncomfortable queer conversations is a good thing, particularly around gender...so my feelings are mixed.

[–]FrannyMac_Shangela? 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was the person who, in quotations put the thing about memorising lines and I'm sorry if that's what you thought I meant.

The reason it was in quotations is that, I thought people would turn round and say things like that regardless of the talent bought by the queen. I'm sorry if I offended you, I genuinely do believe everyone has a right to express their art however they wish.

[–]kangaesugiDax ExclamationPoint 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

While I agree that women can totally do drag and do it well, Rupaul isn't a good person to quote, given that he's kind of dismissive of bio queens too.

[–]mrhugovarelaKatya Zamolodchikova 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (16子コメント)

I don't get bio queens (fully respect them tho) but the fun of being a drag queen is the transformation~ tucking, makeup, fake boobs, wigs, etc. Woman won't do all that so what is the point?

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Not every drag queen tucks,uses fake boobs or wigs either. Do you dismiss their job as well?

Bio queens can transform as much as they want as long as they have the correct skills.

[–]mrhugovarelaKatya Zamolodchikova 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Let me put it this way.. the transformation, the illusion, the art from male to female. What is the point of female to female?

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Drag isn't always simply male to female. I already mentioned what Acid Betty does,for example. Is she simply dressing up as girl? No. Drag is much more than that. Drag is questioning society's norms. Drag is art. And any gender can do that.

[–]rifoistBioqueens = gentrification. -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A woman dressing as a woman isn't 'questioning society's norms'. They should be drag kings. That would be drag!

[–]VoilaNota -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think queens like Nina Flowers and Acid are exceptions when it comes to drag race though (despite clearly having female characters, which shows their act is still based in expressing femininity). If most drag performers were like those two, then yes, there would be no reason to exclude women from the show. But the fact is drag as a whole still heavily focuses on gender illusion -- it's not the entire purpose of the art form but it is like 90% of it imo. That may change as time goes on but right now "drag" means performing as a character opposite your own gender to the vast majority of people

[–]mamgxDetox Icunt 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So you're also putting trans queens such as Sonique or Jiggly down, no matter how fierce they are...

[–]MissSteakI just feel the way that I feel and that's good enough for me 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly I don't really think Sonique or Jiggly would prefer them to be called "drag queens" nowadays. Not sure for Jiggly (not sure how far did she go with her transition), but I'm sure Sonique wouldn't identify herself as a drag queen anymore.

[–]Gameofthorns8Katya Zamolodchikova 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (8子コメント)

But you are missing the point, drag queen is more of a statement and requires bigger balls (no pun intended). A lot of bio women transform with makeup and clothes, they are celebrated for that, so it makes no sense for them be celebrated again on a show like RPDR.

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I already said that not every Bio Queen does the "dressing up as a girl" type of drag,though. Some do the Dragula style of drag,some do the "pushing beyond genders" kind of drag. And they are as judged as any men for doing that.

[–]akialvam*thwoorp* 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly! What I don't really get (and dislike) are girls that just dress up, exaggerate their make up and say they're doing drag. Sorry baby, no. But I hate when people automatically dismiss bio queens.

I've seen plenty of amazing female queens that are undeniable doing drag! Whenever I see someone summing up drag as just dressing up as woman I'm like 'really queen? And you consider yourself a fan of drag?' We know it's much more deeper than that and it presents itself in so many different forms. Although drag bases are in femininity some queens are not dressing up as women but transforming themselves as almost different beings!

I read somewhere Ru saying she doesn't dresses like a woman, she dresses like a drag queen. Drag is a parody, it's exaggerated. Expressing yourself and your art through your own body in that way it's drag, doesn't matter how you call it. Women in drag is definitely a different experience but it doesn't mean it's not valid.

[–]Gameofthorns8Katya Zamolodchikova 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I didn't say they are all dressing like a girl. But many do focus on again just looking like girl but with more conceptual look. It's an easier transformation in many forms, including society.

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Many do,but not all of them. And even if they all were the same kind of fishy,being an "easier" transformation doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact. Art is art,we don't dismiss one form of art because it could be more simple than another.

[–]Gameofthorns8Katya Zamolodchikova 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm sorry but the impact is much less, I hope you understand this in terms of the world. Drag queens need to have their space. Nobody said it's not an art form, everything can be art. Not the point.

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I disagree,but such is life.

[–]Gameofthorns8Katya Zamolodchikova 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

And that's fine, I'm just glad we at least got to hear each other.

[–]Hey_Porkchopmust be jelly cuz jam don' shake 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Me too,it's good to discuss something like this with people willing to listen.

[–]xismarSharon Needles 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I respect bio queens and I think they should be allowed to do their art, BUT as Sharon also said, gay clubs are spaces for LGBT men and women. Straight girls can go to gay bars with their gay friends or whatever, but that space is not about you. My problem is that many of those bio queens are straight girls and they shouldnt steal the spotlight from LGBT people in our own spaces.
With that said, having bio queens on rpdr wouldn't be fair imo. Rpdr is a celebration of flamboyant gay men (and sometimes trans women). It's not about us bio girls, even if the bio queen is LGBT, it's not our space and we should respect that.

[–]gavrilushkaDetox Icunt 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I find the concept of bio queen's strange, almost like LGBT erasure. In reality, these girls are performing what is called burlesque, so I don't get why there is this term bio queen.

Drag has its roots in the LGBT community and was lead by gay men and transwomen. To take away from that is taking away from what drag is - transformation into a woman.

[–]pilldoll👞 Alyssa Milano 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (2子コメント)

lets not forget that lots of bio queens may identify as lesbian, bi, pan, etc.

[–]Adenzia👞 Alyssa Milano 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most of the bio queens I've seen are straight, and regardless lesbians did not have a hand in the creation of drag(although I think it's much more acceptable for them vs straight girls).

[–]VoilaNota 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do they though? I'm really uneducated when it comes to the bio queen community so I'm genuinely curious. Would you say there's a significant portion of bio queens that are lgbt?

[–]Asdfghjklqkatyazamo1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think they are stealing it from the LGBT community. I thought being a bio queen is kinda a homage to drag.

[–]oblivionkissWig-Gate 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Burlesque =/= drag. If anything, Drag is actually a form of Burlesque. Or at least very heavily influenced by it in its modern form.

[–]FloofehThe sex was good because I like small dicks 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel drag is like a gay bar. A safe space for queer folk. Straight people can come and visit, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's made for you or owes you anything. You're visiting.

Also, I feel there's an analogy about straight people coming into a gay bar and kind of crowd the place and now the queers can't find each other anymore.

[–]badidea94 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

this is a really good way to make this point. it's not that cis girls doing high femme drag isn't Saying Something About The Performance Of Gender, but the stakes are so completely different from when it's a cis queer man or a trans woman, and it makes their expressed hurt over exclusion and whatever from the community feel very, very privileged.

[–]rifoistBioqueens = gentrification. 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's privilege 101.

Minority/disenfranchised/marginalised group creates space to do their thing. This is because they can't do it/have access to the 'mainstream'.

Privileged group sees and wants to join in.

Told they can't. Mainly because they don't need a designated space/group for said activity.

Scream 'DISCRIMINATION!'

The evidence of their discrimination is the very space created due to that marginalised group experiencing discrimination.

And it goes around a loop again.

I've had this argument with bios before. They refuse to acknowledge they're privileged when it comes to femme stuff. And the only discrimination they can come up with is said space because duh they privileged.

[–]Swthemer#I'm gonna sing you a song 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bio-queens are a completely legitimate part of drag. Your worth as a drag queen and your struggle as a queer dude isn't suddenly diminished because a female bodied person straps on a corset and some fake boobies and lipsyncs to Madonna as well. This line of thinking from Sharon is narrow-minded and, in my opinion, quite lazy. I hope this prejudice in the gay community diminishes especially as we move into an American political climate in which all marginalized people should be sticking together.

[–]sellenspeedSharon Noodles (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've always wondered what her opinions were on bioqueens, and I'm glad to see we share the same views.

Edit: all the white knights rushing into this thread kek

[–]nancydrewskillzSkipper's sister, Stripper 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Listen, I am all for the art of bio-queen. But you can't just amplify your every day look and call yourself a superstar. Gals, stay out of it. RuPaul's Drag Race - as a competition- isn't for you.

[–]TheNewIguana 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you didn't have a penis at some point, you're not doing drag, bring the downvotes bitches

[–]amator7I'll whip your bum with a lettuce leaf 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

She's 100% right

[–]Asdfghjklqkatyazamo1 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Idk but I think not supporting bio queens is quite misogynistic? I thought this community would be against all prejudices.

[–]hersheskisses 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nobody here isn't supporting them people just feel if they want to be on tv create their own show.

[–]Asdfghjklqkatyazamo1 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not just about this sub or about them getting into drag race. I'm talking about the general perception of people. I've just been reading comments from people who invalidate their art because they are women.

[–]sellenspeedSharon Noodles (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So thinking a woman dressing up like a woman isn't interesting makes you a misogynist now? I don't think you know what that word means.

[–]Asdfghjklqkatyazamo1 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What if a straight person tells you that a man dressing up as a woman isn't interesting? Isn't that homophobic?

[–]sellenspeedSharon Noodles (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧ 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, not everyone finds drag queens interesting and that is okay.

[–]julialundbergish 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

what is she trying to say here? i'm lost lmao

[–]lickthismiff 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I fully respect and appreciate a fierce bio queen, but RuPaul is a man who does drag so his show is about men who do drag. All the challenges and stories are based on Ru's experiences so he doesn't really have anything to say about bio queens.

[–]MrEvLo<3 Adore~ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can someone tell me why you'd be a bio queen and not a drag king? For me, I imagine the experience being so much more exploitative to explore something different rather than enhancing what's already there... personal choice I know but really, why one and not the other?

[–]kangaesugiDax ExclamationPoint 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

While I'll reserve judgement on whether bio queens belong on drag race, I think that bio queens are a legitimate part of the drag community. I mean, most bio queens tend to go campy or genderfuck or everythingfuck (a la Betty) rather than just "Instagram Beauty Guru". Drag is ultimately playing with gender and that's what bio queens do. As long as straight bio queens are respectful and understanding of the historical context of drag and its significance in queer spaces, I don't see a problem with it.

That being said, a lot of the comments both here and in the wider discourse of bio queens enter a muddy area when it comes to trans women - a lot of people say that bio queens are a no-go but trans queens are, and honestly that kind of reads to me as "you can do it because you're not really a woman, are you?" I mean - what gives trans women who have gone far into a very successful process of transition like Andreja Pejic or Laverne Cox a license to do drag but not cis women? By all rights the same ideas of "they don't have to do as much and it's not as transgressive" should apply to them too. I mean, I'd consider trans women who do drag bio queens, especially if they've been on HRT for a hot minute.

[–]SharnaRanwan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You know, if there's going to be women on the show, it should be drag kings not bio queens.

[–]randomdragracerAlaska Thunderfuck 5000 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The irony that Sharon's drag was said to not be drag or even to be presented on drag race is ironic. Kinda sad she feels this way when she was put in the same box.

[–]HuntynatorKatya Zamolodchikova -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm sorry but what does this response even mean?

[–]Magoris96[S] 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (3子コメント)

A man presenting himself as feminine can cost him his life.

[–]redyellowandAlyssa Edwards 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sharon should hire you as her interpreter

[–]MrEvLo<3 Adore~ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Or you can just read. Sharon's not sat prep reading level...

[–]redyellowandAlyssa Edwards 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

that's why she needs deciphering; I can barely comprehend my drunk texts/tweets, how the hell am I going to understand someone else's?

[–]Jonetzki -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cant have a good storyline with str8 chikc imo... No BUS STOP worthy AT LEAST!!! YAASS GAAWWDD