全 14 件のコメント

[–]LilliaHakami [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Gender Identity: The mind's expectations of gendered characteristics for themselves.

Gender Expression: The way one expresses themselves in a culture through gender coded physicality, clothing, behaviors, and mannerisms.

<Gender>; Definition: A gender identity expecting <gender> coded physical gender expression.

Trans individuals are just as much <insert gender here> as other's because the mind is the source of gender identity. The reason <insert gender here> is the model of / for <gender> is just a consequence of the nature of the situation (i.e. their mind's expectations and their genetics matched up). Transness and Dysphoria happen when the mind's blueprints disagree with the expressions exhibited. The degree to which this disagreement happens is variate.

In this line of reasoning there is no real paradox. Being a <Gender> is about the mind expecting certain characteristics. When these characteristics aren't met the mind generates dysphoria from the dissonance. Understanding this dissonance and the characteristics one needs to meet to eliminate dysphoria are the goals of transitioning. This often, as you've stated, includes reaching appropriate chemical levels for both the brain and secondary characteristics to form as well as removing or adding to physical structures as needed. In this vein <Gender> is something you always have had with you (since it is internal) and does not require the expression of appropriate physical characteristics to exist within one's genetics. Dysphoria generated from lack of this expression does however necessitate the acquisition of these characteristics for continued functioning.

[–]tailcallednonbinary trans, he/him [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Why is it specifically "the paradox of trans natal males" and not just the paradox of (binary?) trans people?

[–]Missi-AmphetamineJackbooted thug ↖(^ω^)↗[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Because it seemed simpler and clearer to focus on one sex, rather than inputting both sex options every time I mentioned male/female, which would make it unnecessarily complicated.

You can of course apply this to trans natal females too by swapping out the sex terms, but as far as I've seen they don't seem to be making the same claims as trans natal males anyway.

[–]thrwpllw 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Always comes back to the question of how they define "woman."

Still never heard a non-circular definition that didn't rely entirely on sexist stereotypes.

[–]TheWakalixGender Doubtful [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Lemme try.

"Woman" is a social category. People with the phenotype that usually corresponds to XX are placed in that category.

(I'm not approving of the status quo, but that's how society functions right now. I'm just being descriptivist.)

[–]Missi-AmphetamineJackbooted thug ↖(^ω^)↗[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

What is this social category? What is its purpose? How did it come about? Why are females placed in that category? What is the definition of that category, or the parameters of what is required to fit within that category?

It is still circular and paradoxical for trans natal males to say that adult natal females are not the model of "woman".

[–]TheWakalixGender Doubtful [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What is this social category?

"Woman".

What is its purpose?

It doesn't really have one anymore, it just sort of happened.

How did it come about?

I'm not really sure. Sociology doesn't go into "origins of X" as much as anthropology. But here's a decent answer that seems okay:

"Gender was an ancient technology, the development of which was promoted by a Convergent-Evolution-like process; it happened independently in many different Human Cultures, and also spread from culture to culture due to the advantages it brought.

In a nutshell: The number of living adult Females in a band or tribe determines the maximum number of babies that can be born to it that year. Cultures without Gender Roles restricting Females from dangerous work lost more Females to illness and injury, and thus reduced their group's Reproductive Capacity. This, in turn, reduces the group's ability to recover from disaster, injury, illness, and other loss of life. Slower population growth meant those bands and tribes were generally out-competed by groups with more members. So too, culture is a tool [not] unlike evolution, and effective tools tend to inspire the creation or spread of similar tools in neighboring cultures. These are some of the reasons Gender Roles are so ubiquitous.

The end product is that, deep within ancient laws, social contracts, and what's accepted as normal for most cultures in the world, we find these Gender Roles buried. They're so ancient, and so deeply-tied to the rituals and jobs and ceremonies and other fundamental parts of a culture that they seem Biological or Fundamental. This, despite said Gender Roles varying widely from culture to culture. And also despite being rendered completely irrelevant in an era when mortality and maximizing reproductive capacity isn't a concern (and is even arguably harmful, given the survival risks posed by exponential Human overpopulation).

Side note: The invention of Gender Roles was likely an influence on our biological evolution as well; mild Sexual [Dimorphism] tends to emerge among species like Humans, which have been social for a long time. The non-child-bearers are specialized for certain tasks, or in ways that make their activities less risky. These traits or capabilities are generally not be as pronounced in caretakers / child-bearers not involved in these activities, to conserve bodily resources and energy that would be spent developing and maintaining those capabilities. A good example is the way elevated Testosterone Levels in Men and Women encourage higher baseline Muscle Mass, but require more calories to maintain ("Sex Hormones" do not have this effect in all species; solitary hunters and non-social animals tend to create Males and Females whose capabilities are a lot more similar). Eusocial animals like Mole Rats or many species of hive-dwelling insects with single Breeders in their communities get even more extreme versions of this; most have at least 3 genetic or "sex-like" morphs that create specific genders/"social castes", and some have twice that or more. But we're getting off on a huge tangent at this point."

Gender 'culturally evolved' to distinguish the sperm-people and the womb-people, and gender roles 'evolved' to tinker with what each people did. Like many traits, gender is no longer necessary for societies, but it remains as a vestigial 'organ'.

This does not mean that gender is good! I want to abolish it, myself. But it is important to understand your enemy.

Why are females placed in that category?

Because it 'evolved' to target womb-people.

What is the definition of that category, or the parameters of what is required to fit within that category?

If you go by "what it was intended for," then womb-people. But that would also exclude post-menopausal females, sterile females, etc.

But wait a second. This is easy. We can look at how society categorizes people, and use that to determine "who fits in 'woman." And yep, it's your phenotype, because that determines which category society places you in. Descriptivism over prescriptivism.

(Not quite satisfied with that one, but it'll do for now. And you'll note that it doesn't include trans women, while managing to squeeze CAIS inside.)

It is still circular and paradoxical for trans natal males to say that adult natal females are not the model of "woman".

Oh, yes, females are the phenotype that "woman" was constructed around. But its original 'evolutionary purpose' is irrelevant, what matters is how today's society classifies people.

[–]Princeso_BubblegumTranssexual Empress 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

This isn't a paradox at all if you distinguish sex from gender. I don't want to be a woman, I think I always was one, I desire to be female. How the word woman developed in tandem with female is irrelevant.

[–]feminafact 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If woman doesn't mean "adult human female"... what does it mean?

[–]Missi-AmphetamineJackbooted thug ↖(^ω^)↗[S] 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (4子コメント)

No, it is not irrelevant? How is it irrelevant?

The word "woman" literally came into existence in order to describe an adult natal female.

When you say you think you have always been one, you are saying "I think I have always been a person who should have the qualities of an adult natal female."

Which requires a natal female 'base'/'model' that is the set of characteristics that you wish you were/are trying to mimic/think you have, which fit within the bounds of "woman" as defined by the existence of adult natal females.

But then you say that a natal female is not any more "woman" than a trans natal male who is trying to imitate the qualities and characteristics of said natal female. So it is still very paradoxical.

[–]Princeso_BubblegumTranssexual Empress -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't know how to put this besides that because I am not using your definition of what a woman is, there is no contradiction for me.

You can't define transwomen out of existence.

[–]Dahna_Mahna 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why is this such a go-to line when female women don't believe they share the same category as trans woman?

No one is claiming trans women don't exist or that it's even possible to make them not exist by defining categories. We are not saying you are imaginary people or wishing for your non existence.

We are simply reclaiming a category that we do not believe applies to you. You are still you even if you are not welcomed into a group you would like to belong to.

[–]Missi-AmphetamineJackbooted thug ↖(^ω^)↗[S] 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Very much this. People who exist clearly exist. But that does not mean the labels they apply to themselves are accurate or appropriate.

[–]Missi-AmphetamineJackbooted thug ↖(^ω^)↗[S] 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What is your non circular definition of woman, then?

And why is it that it happens to line up with exactly what natal females are physically, are called (women,) and are expected to be like in presentation, without being dependent on mimicking natal females?