The self-chosen remit of my blog is “Updates on my research and expository papers, discussion of open problems, and other maths-related topics”. Of the 774 posts on this blog, I estimate that about 99% of the posts indeed relate to mathematics, mathematicians, or the administration of this mathematical blog, and only about 1% are not related to mathematics or the community of mathematicians in any significant fashion.
This is not one of the 1%.
Mathematical research is clearly an international activity. But actually a stronger claim is true: mathematical research is a transnational activity, in that the specific nationality of individual members of a research team or research community are (or should be) of no appreciable significance for the purpose of advancing mathematics. For instance, even during the height of the Cold War, there was no movement in (say) the United States to boycott Soviet mathematicians or theorems, or to only use results from Western literature (though the latter did sometimes happen by default, due to the limited avenues of information exchange between East and West, and former did occasionally occur for political reasons, most notably with the Soviet Union preventing Gregory Margulis from traveling to receive his Fields Medal in 1978 EDIT: and also Sergei Novikov in 1970). The national origin of even the most fundamental components of mathematics, whether it be the geometry (γεωμετρία) of the ancient Greeks, the algebra (الجبر) of the Islamic world, or the Hindu-Arabic numerals , are primarily of historical interest, and have only a negligible impact on the worldwide adoption of these mathematical tools. While it is true that individual mathematicians or research teams sometimes compete with each other to be the first to solve some desired problem, and that a citizen could take pride in the mathematical achievements of researchers from their country, one did not see any significant state-sponsored “space races” in which it was deemed in the national interest that a particular result ought to be proven by “our” mathematicians and not “theirs”. Mathematical research ability is highly non-fungible, and the value added by foreign students and faculty to a mathematics department cannot be completely replaced by an equivalent amount of domestic students and faculty, no matter how large and well educated the country (though a state can certainly work at the margins to encourage and support more domestic mathematicians). It is no coincidence that all of the top mathematics department worldwide actively recruit the best mathematicians regardless of national origin, and often retain immigration counsel to assist with situations in which these mathematicians come from a country that is currently politically disfavoured by their own.
Of course, mathematicians cannot ignore the political realities of the modern international order altogether. Anyone who has organised an international conference or program knows that there will inevitably be visa issues to resolve because the host country makes it particularly difficult for certain nationals to attend the event. I myself, like many other academics working long-term in the United States, have certainly experienced my own share of immigration bureaucracy, starting with various glitches in the renewal or application of my J-1 and O-1 visas, then to the lengthy vetting process for acquiring permanent residency (or “green card”) status, and finally to becoming naturalised as a US citizen (retaining dual citizenship with Australia). Nevertheless, while the process could be slow and frustrating, there was at least an order to it. The rules of the game were complicated, but were known in advance, and did not abruptly change in the middle of playing it (save in truly exceptional situations, such as the days after the September 11 terrorist attacks). One just had to study the relevant visa regulations (or hire an immigration lawyer to do so), fill out the paperwork and submit to the relevant background checks, and remain in good standing until the application was approved in order to study, work, or participate in a mathematical activity held in another country. On rare occasion, some senior university administrator may have had to contact a high-ranking government official to approve some particularly complicated application, but for the most part one could work through normal channels in order to ensure for instance that the majority of participants of a conference could actually be physically present at that conference, or that an excellent mathematician hired by unanimous consent by a mathematics department could in fact legally work in that department.
With the recent and highly publicised executive order on immigration, many of these fundamental assumptions have been seriously damaged, if not destroyed altogether. Even if the order was withdrawn immediately, there is no longer an assurance, even for nationals not initially impacted by that order, that some similar abrupt and major change in the rules for entry to the United States could not occur, for instance for a visitor who has already gone through the lengthy visa application process and background checks, secured the appropriate visa, and is already in flight to the country. This is already affecting upcoming or ongoing mathematical conferences or programs in the US, with many international speakers (including those from countries not directly affected by the order) now cancelling their visit, either in protest or in concern about their ability to freely enter and leave the country. Even some conferences outside the US are affected, as some mathematicians currently in the US with a valid visa or even permanent residency are uncertain if they could ever return back to their place of work if they left the country to attend a meeting. In the slightly longer term, it is likely that the ability of elite US institutions to attract the best students and faculty will be seriously impacted. Again, the losses would be strongest regarding candidates that were nationals of the countries affected by the current executive order, but I fear that many other mathematicians from other countries would now be much more concerned about entering and living in the US than they would have previously.
It is still possible for this sort of long-term damage to the mathematical community (both within the US and abroad) to be reversed or at least contained, but at present there is a real risk of the damage becoming permanent. To prevent this, it seems insufficient for me for the current order to be rescinded, as desirable as that would be; some further legislative or judicial action would be needed to begin restoring enough trust in the stability of the US immigration and visa system that the international travel that is so necessary to modern mathematical research becomes “just” a bureaucratic headache again.
Of course, the impact of this executive order is far, far broader than just its effect on mathematicians and mathematical research. But there are countless other venues on the internet and elsewhere to discuss these other aspects (or politics in general). (For instance, discussion of the qualifications, or lack thereof, of the current US president can be carried out at this previous post.) I would therefore like to open this post to readers to discuss the effects or potential effects of this order on the mathematical community; I particularly encourage mathematicians who have been personally affected by this order to share their experiences. As per the rules of the blog, I request that “the discussions are kept constructive, polite, and at least tangentially relevant to the topic at hand”.
Some relevant links (please feel free to suggest more, either through comments or by email):
- AMS Board of Trustees opposes executive order on immigration
- MAA Executive Committee Statement on Immigration Ban
- Public Universities Respond to New Immigration Order
- A letter from the editors of the AMS graduate student blog on the Executive Order on Immigration
- Statement of inclusiveness (a petition, primarily aimed at mathematicians, created and hosted by Kasra Rafi and Juan Souto)
- Academics Against Executive Immigration Order (a petition, aimed at the broader academic community)
- First they came for the Iranians, blog post, Scott Aaraonson
60 comments
Comments feed for this article
31 January, 2017 at 11:08 am
Warren D Smith
Analysis of the USA 216 presidential election vis-a-vis alternative voting systems:
http://rangevoting.org/USA2016retro.html
31 January, 2017 at 11:15 am
Jeffery Breeding-Allison
On a somewhat related note, Tufts is running a short summer school for mathematicians who are interested in training to be expert witnesses for gerrymandering/redistricting court cases:
https://sites.tufts.edu/gerrymandr/
31 January, 2017 at 11:25 am
djbruce
The editors of the AMS Grad Blog, including myself, posted a statement expressing our concerns and condemnation of the recent executive order.
http://blogs.ams.org/mathgradblog/2017/01/31/editorial-statement-executive-order/
31 January, 2017 at 11:32 am
H.
I’d like to thank you for your precise comments on this issue. I am an Iranian student pursuing PhD in U.S.
Even before this discriminatory measure, I could not return to see my father with metastasic cancer back home, since most probably I couldn’t receive a new visa to come back here. I took me a while to handle my feelings and to become able to cope with the everyday pain for that. Now, this has made it intolerable for me, and many other researchers who came here to pursue their education and career. Feeling insecure everywhere every place every moment, searching for a way to escape this man-made hell!
And I should add to your thoughts: I believe those who are affected by this measure in long term are not us, we will eventually get settled somewhere else, and this is the U.S. that already has lost thousands of us. Maybe our bodies are now here, but most of us think of leaving this insultive atmosphere as soon as possible.
As you said, the walls of trust between the Iranian scientific society and the U.S. has got destroyed overnight, and I doubt that any measure can remedy the pain now we suffer, at least in my life span!
31 January, 2017 at 12:00 pm
arch1
Thanks for posting this. Typo: “…there is no longer an assurance, even *for* nationals…could *not* occur…”
PS. I like the banner photo. Someone should annotate a copy of that plaque consistent with the Executive Order and ship it to the WH.
[Corrected, thanks – T.]
31 January, 2017 at 12:17 pm
Fascism and the Current National Emergency | Not Even Wrong
[…] Terry Tao has a blog entry about this, emphasizing the damage to the math […]
31 January, 2017 at 12:30 pm
Nestor
Thank you for this thread Terry. I hope it leads to some constructive discussion.
I know personally at least a dozen colleagues who have been affected by the executive order. Be it by them having their travel severely restrained, or their relatives. Many of them are US citizens with family in the affected countries, or permanent residents. At least two UMass students were detained at Logan airport and I do not know if they have been allowed in.
I have also known of several cases of postdocs in the United States with double nationality who were in the market for tenure track positions and have become defacto unhirable because they cannot get a work visa anymore. As someone who knows the stresses of the job market, those people have my strongest sympathy right now.
Last but not least, I know of permanent residents in the US who are not affected by the current EO, who are nervous of going to conferences abroad out of fear of being caught outside if a similar EO is enacted that affects them due to their origin. I was originally dubious that these fears were too justified, by after various conversations it no longer seems to me beyond the realm of possibility that such a ban could happen, say, in the not too distant future, that affects people like myself with a Venezuelan passport.
31 January, 2017 at 12:55 pm
Marie Lau
Dear Prof Tao,
Thank you for speaking up for international scholars. May I also point out sth you might have overlooked.
Many people have assumed that the immigration system before Trump was merely tedious but still do-able. That is not true. First, the queue for a faculty position has become longer, and hence visa term limits affect the chance of an international scholars to stay in academia. Not staying in academia also means not staying in US, because going to the industry requires getting a visa thru lottery. Second, while mathematics is not a sensitive discipline, many academic STEM positions place restrictions on foreign nationals of different origins.
These things rarely get addressed, because our visa comes with the condition of not showing immigration intent, and confronting authorities would mar our record in this country. So we rely on citizens to speak up for us. Not only reverting to how things used to be before Trump, but also streamlining the visa and immigration system.
Respectfully,
Marie
31 January, 2017 at 1:10 pm
S
I am a Canadian-Iranian mathematician currently doing a postdoc in Canada. My research is on combinatorial algebraic geometry and its applications in physics. I might be affected by the ban, since I applied for jobs in US but I have not heard back from any of those universities and I suspect that it won’t happen (considering the current situation).
I still cannot believe it! As you mentioned, an individual (regardless of their social status and political power) should not be able to influence others’ lives and their families overnight (and the worse part is for a reason that is beyond our control, namely the place of birth).
Anyways, thank you Professor Tao for providing this opportunity for us to share our problems within our scientific community.
31 January, 2017 at 1:21 pm
Anonymous
Perhaps some telepresence technologies (e.g. telerobotics, teleconferencing) may help somewhat.
31 January, 2017 at 1:31 pm
pipilu
“please feel free to suggest more, either through comments or by email”, well, how about the direct link to the executive order? It’s like writing “Perelman’s proof of the Poincaré conjecture: a nonlinear PDE perspective” without citing “The entropy formula for the Ricci flow and its geometric applications”.
[Link added – T.]
31 January, 2017 at 1:49 pm
Māris Ozols
Scott Aaronson has spoken out about how this has affected his students: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3167
31 January, 2017 at 3:52 pm
S
I agree with everything that is said so far. I think there are several other negative impacts. Visibility is an important factor in the life of a junior mathematician. This new ban will certainly affect the invitation to conferences. Some of affected people are going to cancel their upcoming trips, which will create a negative image, and will make some conference organizers more hesitant to invite these people in the future. People who are affected by this ban will suffer, most importantly because they can’t continue their research programs and need to look for new connections and collaborators, but also the sparse list of conference presentations in their cv could affect their tenure files and their grant applications negatively.
I should add that some us have been already experiencing these sort of exclusions, just because of lack of long connection in american academic system. But unfortunately, the new ban will worsen the situation by limiting our international travels.
31 January, 2017 at 4:24 pm
S
I am mostly talking about faculty members who have a job in the US, and will not travel to protect their career, which will be damaged.
31 January, 2017 at 4:32 pm
Jeffrey Helkenberg
I was looking for your post regarding the Obama 2011 order that suspended immigration from Iraq for six months. I am sure that you felt equally appalled that innocent Iraqi *children / mathematicians* were unable to access the fast food drive-through lanes that are the hallmark of our advanced civilization. I feel your pain at the idea mathematicians may have to facetime their dissertations or, heaven forbid, use a service such as lanl.gov to present preprints to fellow academicians. The delay (in nanoseconds) resulting from sending an email might lead to the “collaborative community” equivalent of gimbal lock as pertains to advancing yet another theory of prime distributions.
I await a link to that article with *bated* breath.
31 January, 2017 at 5:34 pm
Terence Tao
I am sure you already know the differences between the current executive order and the one from 2011, but just in case:
See for instance this article for a good summary of the differences. In short, the 2011 order sought to solve a very specific problem while causing the minimal disruption possible. Some disruption still inevitably occurred, of course, but nowhere near the scale of what the current order has had, which by all appearances seems to have been drafted with almost no thought as to potential unintended consequences. The difference is analogous to the difference between a firefighter kicking down a door in order to put out a fire, versus a “firefighter” who is kicking down all the doors in a building that is not actually on fire.
I am not sure how familiar you are with the actual working of mathematical research, but at present there are several key activities which simply cannot be replicated by current telepresence technology. For instance, right now I am at MSRI, together with about a hundred other mathematicians, for semester-long programs in Analytic Number Theory and in Harmonic Analysis. In addition to formally scheduled events such as workshops and seminars, there has been a vast amount of valuable informal and spontaneous interaction in the common areas or in the various offices; particularly precious has been the interaction with mathematicians from overseas that one would rarely have chance to interact with in persion. I myself have only been here two weeks and managed to solve one problem with a pair of existing collaborators, another one with colleagues that I had not previously been thinking of working with, and provided guidance to a half-dozen other mathematicians; I doubt I could sustain even one tenth of this level of activity purely through remote interactions over the internet. I am in email contact with mathematicians whom for various reasons (such as medical reasons) were not able to attend the program, and they were quite envious of not being able to participate directly in all of the activities; they could view some of the seminars and talks by video over the internet, of course, but this is only a small fraction of what these sorts of programs offer. It was already a painful decision for us as organisers to turn away many qualified applicants due to lack of space; in the future the problem will be exacerbated by applicants being unable or unwilling to attend due to travel uncertainties that did not previously exist. I myself started my career by participating in a similar MSRI program in 1997 in harmonic analysis in which I met many of my future long-time collaborators and learned of many problems and techniques which I would otherwise would have been unable to easily obtain, or even hear about. Such opportunities may now be denied to many promising young mathematicians, simply by accident of their country of origin.
31 January, 2017 at 6:01 pm
Jeffrey Helkenberg
We tolerate (dare I say celebrate?) that Obama suspended immigration from Iraq due to the fact terrorists successfully entered our country with the intent of causing harm. Obviously there was a desire to review the process and ensure that essential requirements were not going to be overlooked in the future.
Your post assumes that President Trump does not have any information that would allow him to reach similar conclusions regarding our immigration policies and practices. Despite the fact Congress passed (and Obama signed) the “Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2011” that Trump is using as justification for the scope of his Executive Order, your post states “many of these fundamental assumptions (regarding American values and mathematical collaboration across borders) have been seriously damaged, if not destroyed altogether.” How was creating and signing the bill less harmful to those values than implementing it? Where is the post highlighting the dangers of the 2011 bill? I guess you were not paying attention back then.
No one wants to see scientific thought be stifled (haha, tip of the hat to Elsevier and the Copyright Clearance Center). Academic thought has been stifled by a lack of (inexpensive) access to research materials for decades. Of course those with large research budgets and political connections would find such roadblocks little more than pebbles on the path to success. As we all know *real* science is paywalled.
The Trump wall is very similar to the wall academicians and researchers have grown to tolerate (and perhaps even love in a Stockholm-syndrome sort of way). Peer review is the ultimate vanity; why not apply it to immigration? Note: We do and that is why coming to America feels like winning the lottery.
Anyway, my larger point is that you are being hyperbolic in your assertion that “at present there is a real risk of the damage becoming permanent.” Knowledge is organic; one can delay, but never stop, the march toward truer truths. And as we established in your last post on Trump, the voters are incapable of understanding the job of the President, hence Trump is the President. Right?
31 January, 2017 at 6:12 pm
Máté Wierdl
“How was creating and signing the bill less harmful to those values than implementing it? ”
Huh. What is the difference between theory and practice, between understanding nuclear fusion/fission and dropping the bomb?
31 January, 2017 at 6:31 pm
Jeffrey Helkenberg
That is why I paraphrased Oppenheimer and the idea of “organic necessity.”
“But when you come right down to it, the reason that we did this job is because it was an organic necessity. If you are a scientist you cannot stop such a thing. If you are a scientist you believe that it is good to find out how the world works; that it is good to find out what the realities are; that it is good to turn over to mankind at large the greatest possible power to control the world and to deal with it according to its lights and values.”
Science gets a free pass to build the bomb, the politicians get a free pass to write the bill, the soldier gets spit on for following orders, the academicians cry crocodile tears into their Starbucks coffee. Again, how was giving the bomb to a political body less suspect than the political body using it?
America dropped 26,171 bombs in 2016 (for you stats lovers, that is three bombs every hour, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, no break for Christmas). Where was the post decrying that? Oh, it didn’t hurt mathematicians access to collaboration so, well, obviously why would anyone care? That isn’t *embarrassing* enough to warrant a post.
“Sad.”
1 February, 2017 at 6:34 am
Máté Wierdl
“the academicians cry crocodile tears into their Starbucks coffee.”
Is this supposed to be a convincing argument for the Muslim travel ban?
While trying to bring in what they call false equivalences between the Muslim travel ban and other mostly irrelevant events, you claim that the disruption of scientists’s work and lives is a small price to pay for the greater good the executive order accomplishes.
In contrast, the vast majority here and elsewhere claim, there is no greater good in the executive order (in fact, there is a greater bad in it), hence there is no reason to disrupt scientific research and people’s lives.
So I do not see what can be accomplished with a lonely voice here. Why does one repeat a toothless insult on academic work and people in writing over and over, when it can be simply reread to friends in the club as many times as the audience requires?
But even if you can’t resist endlessly echoing your tired observations on Academia, please keep in mind that yours is just a small, minority voice from the camp of a minority president.
31 January, 2017 at 6:31 pm
Terence Tao
1. The Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act is from 2015, not from 2011.
2. As the name suggests, what it does is restrict access to the visa waiver program to residents of certain countries – that is to say, such residents now need to apply for a visa in order to enter the United States.
3. The current executive order is not “implementing” this restriction of the visa waiver program, which had already been implemented in 2015; the only connection is that it uses the same list of countries as the previous bill, in order to impose a far stricter, and more draconian set of restrictions.
4. I think it is indeed reasonable to infer that the current President did not have access to the best information available in crafting this order, as there was essentially no consultation with Congress, DHS, DOJ, etc. before this order was issued. This, by the way, is highly unprecedented. Another indication of this is in the administration’s subsequent admission that it was an error to extend this order to cover permanent residents.
5. I also have voiced objections to the journal pricing policies of Elsevier and other publishers in the past, but I fail to see how this is relevant to the current discussion.
6. Delay is damage. If someone burns down a rainforest, can one plausibly argue that no real damage was done because the rainforest was “organic” and one can “delay, but never stop” its regrowth? At any rate, even if the mathematics itself eventually is discovered (albeit at a slower rate), the damage to mathematicians is quite real.
31 January, 2017 at 6:54 pm
Jeffrey Helkenberg
1) True, the scope of time is such that travel going back to 2011 could trigger the provisions of the bill.
2) Delay is damage, just not in this instance.
3) Draconian is perhaps not the best word to use here. Dropping atomic bombs to advertise a threat to the Russians is draconian. Stopping immigration for up to 180 days is not that bad. Refer to the Russian commentary below.
4) Reasonable to infer, but unreasonable to assert as a fact.
5) Relevant because “delay is damage.”
6) Actually, delay is not damage. Damage to what? Some of teh people killed by the 26,000+ bombs America dropped on people last year?
31 January, 2017 at 7:33 pm
Anonymous
Most of Jeffrey Helkenberg’s comments are mostly not logically related to the discussion here. (The only related one is the 2011 order he mentioned above.) He keeps making unsound statements without understanding what Terry is really saying.
“Actually, delay is not damage.” Actually what? Would you just honestly say “Actually, delay is not damage to me.”?
31 January, 2017 at 7:51 pm
smrnda
You seem to be expressing generic hostility towards the scientific establishment as a means of trivializing the issue. That seems a bit like the fallacy of relative privation. As long as mathematicians are not dying in the streets, how can they complain? It also seems a bit out of place with regard to mathematics. Unlike the physical sciences or engineering, the actual materials needed to do mathematics are quite modest. The best way for people to contribute and cultivate their talents are through collaboration. It’s the more open system which has allowed mathematicians from all over the globe to collaborate, enrich their own skills, and often bring them back to their nations of origin or new nations. A number of departments find ways to bring together people from all over the world, often offering financing, so that talent can be cultivated.
Also, peer review is not vanity. I know that many people outside of the sciences believe we all just pat ourselves on the back for reaching the ‘right’ conclusions but it is a very rigorous process. Paywalls exist because it costs money to run academic journals. If you want free access, support government money being spent towards that purpose.
Perhaps in the long view, setbacks are only temporary, but as someone once said, in the long run we’ll all be dead.
31 January, 2017 at 9:15 pm
Jeffrey Helkenberg
I am not being hostile toward science or mathematicians as members of a subculture of science. However, it is intellectually dishonest to argue that what Trump has done in any way jeopardizes our relationship with the world when dropping 26,000+ bombs on foreign soil has not been corrosive.
“In President Obama’s last year in office, the United States dropped 26,172 bombs in seven countries. This estimate is undoubtedly low, considering reliable data is only available for airstrikes in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Libya, and a single “strike,” according to the Pentagon’s definition, can involve multiple bombs or munitions. In 2016, the United States dropped 3,028 more bombs—and in one more country, Libya—than in 2015.”
A scientist (or a layperson for that matter) might conclude that countries we have been bombing relentlessly for a decade *might* harbor some resentment toward the US. Trump did not order munitions dropped on Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, etc. Trump did not work to create the hostilities that are simmering in places where people don’t go outside when it is sunny (for fear of being blown up by killer robots). Get a grip on reality, see that there are *far, far, far worse* atrocities involving human life than restricting travel. Let’s start with addressing the fact the previous administration had a penchant for death by drones. This is not like throwing dice where each roll is disconnected form the previous throw(s). The reason we are concerned about travel from certain countries is that we have spent a lot of time (under liberal government) bombing them and killing a lot of people in the process. The probability of rolling snake eyes (wrt terrorists targeting our country) is in this instance tied to the fact we have been throwing bombs at these nations for a long time.
It is a sad state of affairs when the most brilliant minds remain silent in the face of real atrocity and then all join as a chorus when some of their ilk are denied entry into the USA. “Boo hoo,” Where is the investigation into what led us into our current predicament on the part of the poster? The last administration did everything one could possibly do to anger and alienate the citizens of the “Bad 7”. Own some of that for a *change*.
Also, since when do peer reviewers get paid? Do you even know what you are talking about?
1 February, 2017 at 4:26 am
Anonymous
I guess he is only trying to remind people that the american recent nobel peace prize has been doing for years something quite more atrocious than preventing people from moving to and from the US… unless we consider a plus the freedom of dead people’s souls to move around the globe
31 January, 2017 at 6:03 pm
Máté Wierdl
Despite Bill Gates’s suggestion to the contrary, technology cannot replace flesh and blood collaboration or teaching. In terms of numbers: a MOOC course’s completion rate is 1% while a brick and mortar course’s completion rate is typically over 60%.
31 January, 2017 at 7:20 pm
Anonymous
The “I feel your pain…” stated in a disgusting deliberate sarcasm-way is largely irrelevant to the discussion.
31 January, 2017 at 5:22 pm
Máté Wierdl
Thanks Terry, for speaking up.
31 January, 2017 at 6:11 pm
monodromie
I should mention here that I have not the impression Trump is effectively targeting (at least not in the long run) scientific i.e. mathematical elites, not only would be the costs of such an endeavour too great economically, it is also not compatible with Trump’s own (albeit not openly stated) elitist social background and viewpoint. What I am missing here a bit as in Mark Zuckerberg’s very similar statements is that certain (‘functional’) elites do not reflect on the great similarity their viewpoints on questions of immigration have with radical populist views that now lead in turn to a seeming damage of the mathematical or scientific community. Having said this I also mention that the mathematical achievement is based historically on abilities of ‘social dropouts’ and outsiders who would not be included in any ‘immigration or green card’ program today (cf. Galois). To be a little more clear I am calling here for a certain self-criticism within the mathematical community wrt the question which mechanisms well inherent and accepted in their own circles ‘went nuts and radical’ within the current mainstream american or western society. Throughout europe, not mathematical elites are targeted wrt immigration, but very normal people, refugees, people who are searching for a better life. Achievement and positive contribution, even mathematical achievement and contribution, but in more broad terms any human achievement, cannot be measured, neither in monetary nor other terms, it is something mathematicians often seem to forget.
1 February, 2017 at 12:43 am
Anonymous
In addition to Galois achievements (while being ‘social dropout’) you may add Newton, Einstein (during his patent office days) and Ramanujan.
31 January, 2017 at 6:16 pm
victorivrii
I really wish that the executive order of POTUS was more nuanced and I am really sorry for my esteemed colleagues who are affected by it. I really hope that 90 days later this temporary ban will expire and the restrictions will be lifted.
Still I should mention that those restrictions are really mild in comparison with the restrictions I and my colleagues in Soviet Union experienced. From 1973 to 1988 due to restrictions imposed by Soviet authorities missed tens of invitations to visit universities abroad, including to invited ICM talks; I was allowed just 1 conference trip to Eastern Germany. At that time there was no www, email and even preprints sent to me not always passed through, making preprints of my own and sending them without authorization (getting it would take months without guaranteed success) would be a felony (nevertheless I did a couple of times, including ICM @Berkeley). And not many Western colleagues were visiting USSR at that time.
From 1996 to 1997 I could not travel from Canada to anywhere except USA because there was no free pages in my old Soviet passport and there was no way to get a new one, only when I became a Canadian citizen I was able to travel.
And I know many the finest mathematicians who were affected much more. Those of them who immigrated to Israel after years of waiting permissions from Soviet authorities (and being jobless) could not meet their loved ones for decades since they were not permitted to USSR and their parents or siblings were not allowed abroad.
Today there are several countries which would not allow me in because I have Israeli stamps in my Canadian passport. There are crowds of loons in the USA, Canada, other countries, demanding boycott of Israeli universities and academics working there. I think it is a much large obstacle to scientific exchange than 90 days ban, which actually allows exceptions.
Still again: I really wish that the executive order of POTUS was more nuanced and I am really sorry for my esteemed colleagues who are affected by it. I really hope that 90 days later this temporary ban will expire and the restrictions will be lifted.
31 January, 2017 at 7:14 pm
tcgrubb
Great post. I have heard talk of a “March for Science” coming up in the near(ish) future, see for instance https://www.facebook.com/marchforscience/ . I hope that we may have a solid representation of mathematicians in the mix.
31 January, 2017 at 7:31 pm
statsinthewild
Reblogged this on Stats in the Wild and commented:
Terry Tao is smarter than you. You should listen to him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_Tao
31 January, 2017 at 7:53 pm
Shtetl-Optimized » Blog Archive » First they came for the Iranians
[…] Update (Jan. 31): See also this post by Terry Tao. […]
31 January, 2017 at 7:57 pm
Jeffery Breeding-Allison
Science Will Suffer Under Trump’s Travel Ban, Researchers Say
31 January, 2017 at 8:34 pm
kaave
I’m Iranian and am a 4th year PhD student doing CS theory in the U.S.
I just want to emphasize that most Iranian students, including me, are given single entry visa from the very beginning. That means our visa will expire as soon as we leave US, and to be able to come back we have to go through the application and clearance check, etc. which on average takes three months. This issue has made the concept of attending international conferences not just “slow and frustrating” but practically impossible. I’ve had many friends who took the risk, attended a conference outside the U.S. to present their work, but were stuck in that country or had to go back to Iran waiting for their new US visa to be issued. Most of them took over three months to get their visa and come back to the States.
I’ve personally passed on attending many important conferences/events for this reason. Have not been able to go back and visit my family for about four years now. And of course the EO now has made it impossible for them to come visit me.
Other than those, and the emotional and academic cost attached to them, I have personally not been affected in other ways.
31 January, 2017 at 10:54 pm
kat.
Actually what kaave says is true and it is true for Iran in the sense that it is followed explicitly however it is also followed implicitly for indian students (in many cases) and professionals (in almost every case). And a lot of livelihood have been broken by this.
Also I am wondering where were people like yourselves when the US literally makes people from India to wait 20 years to get a green card while people from your country (australia) can get in 6 months. Your statement of saying ‘at least there was a path to a green card’ is a joke. You had a path because you were among the very best. If you apply that rule that applied to you in general you would at best get 20 green cards for every country (rather than the still pathetic 7000 allocated to any given country including vatican city for (in general approximate sense) immigrating on merit through H1B).
The executive order is a tragedy however your community’s butt kiss to Obama’s support for illegal at the expense of legals was also a tragedy. Without Obama there would not have been a Trump (at least not in the current form).
(changed ‘bigger’ to ‘also’ since I felt it was unfair to what is explicitly happening now).
1 February, 2017 at 10:26 am
Anonymous
It is good to know that you are minimally affected by this, but how about other Iranian students who want to apply for a visa to study master/Ph.D. programs in the US in the near future?
31 January, 2017 at 8:35 pm
Lars Ericson
Let me muddy the waters with this article. http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21715639-effects-foreign-competition-professors-mathematics-mediocre-academic
31 January, 2017 at 9:39 pm
Anonymous
Rather than transforming President Trump’s nuanced economic and security arguments into emotional goop, we could start by clearly identifying the sections of 13769 people are objecting to or interpreting hyperbolically.
31 January, 2017 at 10:29 pm
The female mathematician down the hallway
Agree with everything you say about trump and the sorry state of the nation. For a woman of color like myself, color and gender has always been centermost in how my esteemed math colleagues perceive me. It’s truly awful the way my research group behaves and the abusive mysoginistic behavior I’ve experienced. Trump is making large numbers of people experience the crap that I experience. Welcome to my world folks!
31 January, 2017 at 10:37 pm
kat.
Actually what kaave says is true and it is true for Iran in the sense that it is followed explicitly however it is also followed implicitly for indian students (in many cases) and professionals (in almost every case).
Also I am wondering where were people like yourselves when the US literally makes people from India to wait 20 years to get a green card while people from your country (australia) can get in 6 months. Your statement of saying ‘at least there was a path to a green card’ is a joke. You had a path because you were the best. If you apply that rule that applied to you in general you would at best get 20 green cards for every country (rather than the still pathetic 7000 allocated to any given country including vatican city for (in general approximate sense) immigrating on merit through H1B).
The executive order is a tragedy however your community’s butt kiss to Obama’s support for illegal at the expense of legals was infact a bigger tragedy. Without Obama there would not have been a Trump (at least not in the current form).
1 February, 2017 at 7:32 am
Máté Wierdl
“Your statement of saying ‘at least there was a path to a green card’ is a joke. You had a path because you were the best. ”
Instead of picking on particulars why not grasp the essence of the post: the anti Muslim executive order effects even scientists like Terry and universities like UCLA. Then draw the conclusion how much worse it is going to get at lesser universities. Will there be graduate programs which won’t survive without students from Muslim countries? If a graduate program doesn’t survive, will the profs be able to do research with a 16 hr/week teaching load?
The more general prospects are scary too. For example, Duncan was a terrible secretary of education. But with DeVos, Trump appointed enemy number one of public education to lead public education. Low level public universities suffered a great deal under Duncan. Under DeVos, even high level public universities will struggle. Where will fresh PhDs get jobs?
Same can be said about most other Trump appointments, like EPA.
How can we even remotely compare the promise of Trump’s world with its Trump University model with what we had before?
1 February, 2017 at 10:01 am
kat.
If you don’t see the tragedy in ‘at least there was a path to a green card’ or ‘have to wait 20 years if you are Indian versus 6 months literally any other country to immigrate on merit’ or ‘the effect of the rule that is applied to Iranians is also morally endured by Indians (but not the rule is applied itself)’ and your community’s apathy to these and more but hypocritically taking the moral high ground here there is really no point to conversing with you. You are another typical chauvinstic democrat.
If Obama had not sucked up to illegals at the expense of legals and citizens the current tragedy of Trump would not have happened.
31 January, 2017 at 10:43 pm
kat.
Actually what kaave says is true and it is true for Iran in the sense that it is followed explicitly however it is also followed implicitly for indian students (in many cases) and professionals (in almost every case). And a lot of livelihood have been broken by this.
Also I am wondering where were people like yourselves when the US literally makes people from India to wait 20 years to get a green card while people from your country (australia) can get in 6 months. Your statement of saying ‘at least there was a path to a green card’ is a joke. You had a path because you were among the very best. If you apply that rule that applied to you in general you would at best get 20 green cards for every country (rather than the still pathetic 7000 allocated to any given country including vatican city for (in general approximate sense) immigrating on merit through H1B).
The executive order is a tragedy however your community’s butt kiss to Obama’s support for illegal at the expense of legals was also a tragedy. Without Obama there would not have been a Trump (at least not in the current form).
(changed ‘bigger’ to ‘also’ since I felt it was unfair to what is explicitly happening now).
31 January, 2017 at 11:53 pm
Anonymous
There’s a reddit thread that contains a lot of letters sent out by university presidents opposing the order and offering help to affected people:
https://redd.it/5qpnpo
It’s a big comment thread so there’s all kinds of other stuff (good and not-so-good) there as well.
1 February, 2017 at 12:57 am
Anonymous
As an opponent of Trump I actually feel glad he’s doing this crazy crap so early in his term, since it means his presidency will collapse quickly, court decisions will stop the exec order, he’ll be treated like a buffoon by the Congress and the press who have afforded him much too much credibility til now, etc. But, maybe I’m overoptimistic. It could all go sideways quite badly.
1 February, 2017 at 1:28 am
Open thread for mathematicians on the immigration executive order
[…] The self-chosen remit of my blog is “Updates on my research and expository papers, discussion of open problems, and other maths-related topics”. Of the 774 posts on this blog, I estima… – Read full story at Hacker News […]
1 February, 2017 at 2:15 am
richardelwes
The President of the European Mathematical Society has issued a statement:
http://www.euro-math-soc.eu/news/17/01/31/ems-president-trumps-executive-order
1 February, 2017 at 5:03 am
Raghu Raghavan
I am not a mathematician, but if I may comment, such an effort on behalf of mathematicians alone seems doomed to failure. One has to join forces “for the greater good” and the theme must be “patriotic”, i.e. benefiting the U.S., not mathematics (alone). For example, can anything be more obscene than Jerry Falwell Jr heading the education task force to reform education in the U.S.? In my opinion, that is the fight to join in within the general theme of education and learning. There may be others.
1 February, 2017 at 5:48 am
US Bans Travelers from Certain Muslim Countries | Page 3 | Physics Forums - The Fusion of Science and Community
[…] case someone wants to read what Terence Tao has to say about it: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2017…maticians-on-the-immigration-executive-order/ fresh_42, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:47 […]
1 February, 2017 at 5:56 am
Romain Viguier
The effectiveness of mathematics comes from the different points of view that have had mathematicians during human history.
It is an activity of the mind and in this sense we need the diversity of humans to enrich it, clarify it, and make it evolve.
The miraculous science that is mathematics in the sense that it turns out to be at the same time beautiful, true and applicable outside of itself is a part of
the human civilization.
Nevertheless, science, including mathematics, must remain independent of the political, geopolitical and societal context as much as possible. This is necessary for the sustainability of its activity. The school system varies from country to country and is far from being adapted to the personality and way of thinking of each person.It is far from being optimal but there is positive. What I mean by this example is that scientists have a moral obligation. There is the success of some in a given context but also the failure of others equally capable placed in another context. And this failure is sometimes
attributable to society such as opposing immigration, excluding sick people, conveying racism or stigmatizing the woman.
There is a dual nature of science in the sense that it is a collective adventure whose motor is the individual mind. And it is this union of minds, a union which I dare to describe as transcendent since it involves the individual factor as we have been able to see throughout history, which is the force of science. We should not prevented the brilliant minds from meeting. There are people who are capable of producing immortal works but the environment is a decisive factor.
The world is going badly. The collective neurosis in which we all live makes us lose the simplest questions but also the most essentials. I think that humanity needs to find simple questions. By simple, I do not mean decadence
or decay but rather a path to truth. And it is by taking this path, which is barred to us by societal obstacles, that we will move in the right direction.
1 February, 2017 at 6:09 am
Carl
>It is no coincidence that all of the top mathematics department worldwide
Which mathematics department would you say are at the top?
1 February, 2017 at 7:46 am
Marco
Hi Terry,
Have you considered moving to Australia, given current environment in the US?
What do you think about Australia passing Muslim veil ban recently?
What do you think about the fact that Japan accepted only 27 refugees last year?
What do you think about the fact that you can never become a citizen of Israel?
I am only curious about the first question but would appreciate if you feel like answering any of them.
1 February, 2017 at 8:18 am
Anonymous
Perhaps Trumps goal is in fact to cripple academia, as well as other “enemy” elements of society and culture, as part of a deliberate program of Gleichschaltung.
1 February, 2017 at 10:01 am
Paul Yarbles
President Trump believes that the good of the ban — making America safer — outweighs the bad. Terry Tao does not.
Terry Tao presents some of the bad with respect to mathematics and mathematicians. Even assuming his parochial argument here is 100% accurate, let’s not pretend he has proved that rescinding the current order is desirable. Mathematics is but a tiny part of the picture.
The conclusion that the ban is misguided is based more on feelings than rationality. Ask yourselves did you have a ‘gut reaction’ to the ban when you first heard of it? Especially given that it was Trump who issued the order. How many of you have changed your minds after your first reaction?
I know I have not. I didn’t even try hard to analyze it objectively. Did you?
1 February, 2017 at 10:10 am
kat.
Hey Yarbles let all countries ban one another for 6 months and lets see how goes the world.
1 February, 2017 at 11:25 am
Jason Stanidge
Is there a ban on immigration from Turkey into the US, despite it being a 96.5% majority Muslim country? nope… because Turkey is on the same side as the US in fighting Islamic sponsored terrorism.
I find it interesting the way academics with no background in political science and completely out of their depth, appear to be distorting the facts of the “muslim” immigration ban. it’s not a ban against muslims, but against those countries that pose the greatest threat in exporting Islamic sponsored terrorism to the US. The US is entitled to ensure the safety of its citizens via discrimination, just as the UCLA looks into the background of all their mathematicians to ensure they pose no threat to the students there, and to discriminate if necessary.
1 February, 2017 at 12:18 pm
Anonymous
“I find it interesting the way academics with no background in political science and completely out of their depth, appear to be distorting the facts of the “muslim” immigration ban.”
I find it pathetic the way a non-academic who presents zero knowledge about the claimed “facts” of the immigration ban tries to criticize a mathematician without even understanding one single sentence of his well-established statements in this post.