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[Question/Discussion] Arguing against "Christians do it too"Question/Discussion (self.exmuslim)

ElsatheIceKhaleesi が 投稿

So Islam is a particular passion of mine, because I know and love escapees of the faith. I have studied the Quran and Hadiths intensely, and am sickened by the things they teach. I get into arguments (often with feminists) about the treatment of women, gays, and nonbelievers, and the inconsistency with western and modern culture.

But... I'm a Christian. And I know that my faith is, to some of you, as vile as the one you fled, so you'll forgive me for that I hope. When I renewed my faith it was after years of atheism and intense research of all available religions, and it is just the belief I arrived at. But I do not take the Bible literally and I recognize it was penned by mortals. If that makes a difference...

But I truly do want to know how I can educate those here in America who are apologists, when my faith seems to ruin my argument. So I guess that's my question to you guys, since you're far more experienced. My only points are often to use my friends as anecdotes, but they are humans, not my personal political tools so I hate to do that. So I don't. I quote the Hadiths, but they compare it to OT scripture. They're not wrong - there is some crazy stuff, but I've never seen it utilized as it is in Islam.

Am I being stupid? I am very strong in my faith, but does that bar me from fighting Islam? Am I basically screwed from defending my exmuslim ladies and gents? My friends are attacked as Islamaphobic even though they experienced that life. I just want people to understand their struggle and why women like me might be a bit concerned about the support of Sharia Law in America.

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[–]RationaliserNew User 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

There isn't a difference in your religions really, except the old testament has worse rules than Islam, so from a scripture point of view you don't morally have a leg to stand on.

However, if you denounce the teaching of the OT and don't think people should be stoned etc then you have cherry picked the nice bits of your religion and you are a better person as a result. Muslims can do this too, but I think the percent of xtians that do it is much higher than the percent of Muslims that do the same.

That's all you have really. "Yes, my religion is worse than yours, but there is a lot of it I don't believe in."

[–]ElsatheIceKhaleesi[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I do think a lot of historical scripture on law is taken to be divine commandment, rather than documentation, just to toss that out. But I do agree that if the Bible is taken literally you're in trouble. But it's not meant to be... I know there are issues in the Bible, but I have to disagree that even if comparable to Islam, it's not worse by any standards.

Is the Quran meant to be taken literally? I was under the understanding that each line was the unquestionable word of Allah. I try to study respected Islamic scholars, but it may not be the overall belief of the faith. It's hard to know if the scholars are just radical or speaking for a majority.

[–]ihedeniusNever-Moose Atheist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I do think a lot of historical scripture on law is taken to be divine commandment,

There is distinct difference.

One thing that creeps me out reading r/islam is the constant scrutiny of the minutiae of scripture (Quran + Hadith) to decide anything and everything. The sometimes obvious moral implication of a matter are more or less ignored.

The only thing muslims are interested in is to follow the handbook.

The Bible is considered 'inspired' and this insane literalist dogmatism just isn't there.

Here's a recent thread about whether a muslim needs to question or even inform his wife if he takes a second wife.

Thinking about religion since 9/11 more less (before I couldn't care less) I arrived at having an enormous problem with the morality of surrendering your own mind and 'just believe', the consequences of refusing to think can be horrendous. Islam is an order of magnitude worse in that respect than christianity.

[–]motorcityagnostic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Christians do it too"

2 wrongs dont make a right

[–]isolatedextremophileM4M; I welcome good reasoning. -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't bother. These losers would rather click the downvote button and stop thinking about it than respond.

[–]ExMusDataSince 2008 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

unfortunately every argument you can use for ignoring violent verses, muslims can do the same. however the uses of hadiths and OT ARE different. the new testament some christians can say overrules the old testament laws, because it came AFTER. however the hadiths are the sayings of muhammed AS he was receiving the holy word, NOT AFTER had received the quran. in mainstream islam most of the practices and core teachings come from the hadiths as people try to emulate their prophet (think 5 times a day prayer). the quran is a giant book of instructions on warfare and the occasional verse telling people not to disturb the prophet during dinner.

[–]ElsatheIceKhaleesi[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Most Christians focus on the gospels, which is the beginning of the NT. So I agree while the OT is brutal, Christians aren't seen acting on it. Is there a similar situation in Islam? Are there "Quran only" Muslims? I know there are two branches of Islam but don't know enough about them.

[–]ExMusDataSince 2008 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are there "Quran only" Muslims?

yes there called quranists, and are considered heretics by mainstream islam much like ahmadis.

[–]agentvoideditor-in-chief 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You're not going to be much use against pro-islam atheists.

But with everyone else- your faith may not be as big as handicap as you think.

[–]ElsatheIceKhaleesi[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Really? My faith has been the instant handicap every time! Not even against atheists

[–]agentvoideditor-in-chief 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes. Your faith would be a handicap especially against atheists.

But against fellow theists- you can still hope to reach out to the more open minded ones.

[–]ahm090100 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Obviously both religions have their problems, and it's a week argument from your side to point out the questionable morals in Islam because you can find the same things in your scripture, and just as you ignore the nasty bits some Muslims do the same, so instead of taking the atheist approach of attacking the religion you should attack the literal approach of interpreting Islam, you should argue that more Muslims need to take their books less literally just like most Christians do.

But in my honest opinion I believe a modern interpretation of Islam is very unlikely, at least not very soon, Islam gives almost no room for interpretation, both the infallible status of Muhammad and the literal understanding of the Koran make it almost impossible for a Muslim to fit in the present time.

[–]ElsatheIceKhaleesi[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Do you think literal interpretation vs poetic interpretation is a difference? A huge portion of the Bible is either historical documentation or poetry, rather than God straight up saying "do this BS". I agree if the Bible was taken literally, Christianity would be just as shitty.

From my study of Islam, it sounds like they truly believe the Quran is the infallible word of Allah and Mohammed is a perfect role model because he was sent by Allah. Is that a proper understanding? Forgive me if anything I say is offensive, I try to tread lightly with this topic but it's difficult with religion.

[–]ahm090100 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yes, Muslims take every single word of the Quran and the Hadith literally

[–]ElsatheIceKhaleesi[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Is this a majority belief? I guess my end-all to this post was trying to find out if Islam can be modernized the way other religions were.

[–]ahm090100 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It is the majority belief, Muslims know how the prophet lived the last 23 years of his life, and they are supposed to follow his teachings word for word, you can judge for yourself here, and here, calling for a reformation in an Islamic society is the same as saying don't listen to the prophet, which is blasphemy and could even lead to persecution

[–]ElsatheIceKhaleesi[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

What is persecution in Islam? Is it like the catholic church where you're excommunicated? Because that's awful. Or is it always death? Which is obviously worse...

[–]ahm090100 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It depends on the country, more here and here

Even if you're not sentenced to death or prison, other Muslim citizens may take action with their own hands, just a few weeks ago some secularists in Pakistan went missing, I keep forgetting that I still live in a country that punishes apostasy by death, sigh..

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[–]Iwannabebeyonce 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This logic doesn't translate into Islam isn't bad but rather to Christianity sucks too. And I agree. Two different fairy tales for two different groups of gullible people.

[–]isolatedextremophileM4M; I welcome good reasoning. -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a clear logical fallacy (doesn't do anything to prove anything about Islam/Muslims). End of the discussion.