41
42

PC SSE - DiscussionLast Warning - a statement to Bethesda (self.skyrimmods)

The_Manga_Man が 投稿

(Warning, post written in in a not good mood)

​Dear Bethesda, i am certainly in deep anger about how you treat us modders. We are the one who bring you a constant flow of Money by adding thousands of Gigabytes worth of new Data into your games while we sacrifice thousands of Hours of our sparetime.

On the otherhand we EXPECT support for the modding tools you provide us. At the moment your behaviour is is something like "Eat or die" as we call it in germany "Friss oder stirb". I posted this immensive Buglist from my Weather point of view months ago https://bethesda.net/community/topic/8305/bugs-why-i-now-declare-ck-sse-as-hostile and lot of people added even more Bugs. So far not even a SINGLE reaction to atleast the major bugs that DESTROYS the mods we make. I am spending HOURS fixing all the stuff that gets broken by the Creationkit every week! So this is my one and only Warning (you may also call it Annoucement). Fix those major Bugs in your modding Software Creation Kit within the next Month or i will retreat ALL of my mods from your Website (That would be Vivid Weathers and Vivid Waters for Skyrim and Fallout 4 available for Xbox,PC and the just started WIP project Vivid Weathers for PS4). I will then just publish my mods on the Nexus by just supporting PC.

​People may say now this is egoistic and i lay out the problems i have on the backs of the users but this is sadly the only way i have to make our problems to be noticed.

It now lays in the hands of Bethesda. If the Creationkit stays unfixed for those mentiond major bugs till 01.03.2017 - i will retreat from from beth.net and encourage other major modders todo so too. Last but not least, excuse the bad english... if i would have a calm mood now i would certainly not have written this article in the First place.

this post is a copy of this: https://bethesda.net/community/topic/23871/last-warning-a-statement-to-bethesda

BTW, also something you should read: http://www.darkfox127.co.uk/bulletin/no-console-support

全 76 件のコメント
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]_RobbieRiften 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I suggest you PM GStaff on Bethesda.net directly. He's pretty good about these kinds of things and will likely pass it on to the development team, if it's somehow flown under his radar so far.

[–]WalrusInAnus -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh yes, and then what? Let me tell you - absolutely nothing.

"We wholeheartedly thank you for your detailed feedback. I will pass it over to discuss with the team and we will take appropriate steps to improve. We are extremely happy for having such dedicated customers and are constantly evaluating ways to improve ways to communicate and make our producs even better."

Shit, I could be writing automated replies for them myself.

[–]_RobbieRiften 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have had very positive experiences with Gstaff in the past, and no auto replies detected. I know several other more popular authors have interacted with him as well, and gotten good results.

That's not to say that it will definitely change anything, but based on his track record I do believe he'll pass it along to where it needs to be if he's notified. Beyond that, he can't do anything, because Bethesda ultimately decides what is or is not worth spending company time and money on, not their community manager.

[–]WalrusInAnus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I didn't mean you would get automated reply. Just that the outcome would be the same, unfortunately.

[–]EpicCrabMarkarth 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Hey. I don't mean to be rude, but Bethesda really does not read anything here. This probably isn't the best place to deliver an ultimatum to Bethesda. I'd definitely recommend attempting to contact them directly. I'd also recommend that you change your tone; Bethesda probably ultimately doesn't care if you plan to pull down your mods, and if you want the CK fixed as much as everybody else does, Bethesda will probably take much better to polite requests than ultimatums. I'd also recommend against pulling your mods from consoles; while it is entirely your right to do that, that's likely to hurt unassociated console modders and not necessarily even be noticed by Bethesda. While it is your call, I'd ask that you seriously consider what you're doing before you do it.

Best wishes either way.

[–]sa547phRiften 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'd definitely recommend attempting to contact them directly.

Personally, nothing is more powerful than a formal letter of complaint. That's what I would prefer to do if I need to address a corporation directly, and of course, write the letter in a courteous manner, explaining the problem in good detail.

[–]The_Manga_Man[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

well, thats what i did a few months ago, this rant is now about not the responding of anykind about this.

[–]matorteh autoMator 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You contacted them directly a few months ago? There might be a misunderstanding about what a "formal letter of complaint" is.

That said, I totally understand your position on this. The way Bethesda is doing console mods is pretty ass-backwards, if you ask me.

[–]ChickenDragon123 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

will the mods still be up on nexus if they are removed from Bethnet?

[–]The_Manga_Man[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

sure thing

[–]El_Monstero29 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Read his post, he said he would only be supporting pc mods in the future if nothing changes.

[–]saris01Whiterun 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe, but having a link to a post on one of the most active modding discussion forums with a lot of responses can't hurt.

[–]Fascist_Sans 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If the Creationkit stays unfixed for those mentiond major bugs till 01.03.2017 - i will retreat from from beth.net and encourage other major modders todo so too.

wew, don't get too crazy there lad

[–]The_Manga_Man[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

judging from your nickname you should understand a german fellow ;)

[–]CptnNsan0Whiterun 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why support Bethesda if they won't support the modders?

[–]Kimbobbins 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Skyrim SE isn't a major release and doesn't really warrant any major support past actually making it playable. Do Bethesda games rely on modding for extra replayability?

Yes.

Is fixing a few bugs in the CK for a none major release that doesn't even effect a majority of modders Bethesda's major priority at the minute?

No.

If you want to focus on deep, in depth modding with a tool that's shown it works, mod Oldrim. SSE is just... Extra on top, it still has less daily players than Oldrim.

Sure it might be frustrating but there are over 5000 mods on SE's Nexus at the moment that prove it works.

Oh, and removing your mods because you're pissed at the buggy CK does nothing but hurts the users and gives people a lesser view of you. I use your mod, it works, don't punish those whose only access to it is through Bethesda.net just because of your frustrations.

[–]omgitskae 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Without the modding community Skyrim wouldn't have sold nearly as many copies as it did. Especially not people buying post release. I'll tell you right now, I bought Skyrim twice, once the base game and once the legendary edition and if it weren't for mods I wouldn't have bought it either time. I would say a majority of the purchases made on Skyrim these days are due to mods. People see the amazing Youtube videos of super modded skyrims and are like I WANT THAT and they go buy it. Modders are a huge advertising tool and continue to generate revenue for Bethesda... for free. I think they owe it to at least the modders to make sure they are able to create the mods they want in a relatively bug free environment.

[–]saris01Whiterun -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I only purchased Skyrim for the mods as well. Bethesda should really fix the CK.

[–]Pinkishu -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm not sure I'd really call Oldrim "working" for "in-depth modding". Especially not with a ton of /community-made/ tools

[–]EpicCrabMarkarth 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Are you a mod author? If not, there's nothing wrong with that, but you aren't in a spot to comment on whether or not Oldrim is "working" for "in-depth modding" since the context it's used in here applies to mod authors, not really mod users.

[–]Pinkishu -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well I agree. Not really an "author", but I've used CK and find it an abomination of UX design.

[–]EpicCrabMarkarth 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The main feature of the CK is the drag and drop of references into cells, and Navmeshing and landscape editing (not inb4 those). Pretty much everything else should be done in xEdit or an IDE (inb4 quest dialogue and script fragments). How would you go about improving dropping references in cells? Have you used any similar tools that you think have a better implementation? Are you sure those implementations would work with Skyrim's record structure?

[–]jdsmith2816 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

navmesh? landscape editing? .^

[–]EpicCrabMarkarth 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh, that's fair. I meant everything in the render window, but I guess explicitly excluded those, didn't I?

[–]jdsmith2816 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

know what you meant but couldnt' resist a bit of troll. ;)

[–]matorteh autoMator 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Read Darkfox's post. Honestly, I don't think any mod author should be using Bethesda.net. We should find a way to deploy mods to consoles without Bethesda's involvement, and we shouldn't let them shove shit down our throats.

Bethesda's company policies in regards to mod authors are despicable, but nothing will change if we can't organize and stage effective protests.

[–]CubeTriangled 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

then don't develop mods for their games. simple as that.

[–]Doodlezoid 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree. Bethesda FIX THE GOD DAMN CK

[–]Suraru 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I doubt but hope Bethesda will at least reply, so they don't call your bluff or ignore you.... Because knowing you, you'll actually do it, which would suck for us users.

[–]tamingadragon 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

As much as it sucks, I don't think fixing bugs in SSE is super high up on Bethesda's time/cost vs. return ranking. Hopefully they will get around to it soonish, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[–]saris01Whiterun 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

the CK should never have released in the state they released it in if they wanted people to make mods for their console scheme.

[–]MightyGuardian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a console player and one who enjoys vivid weathers, I just have to say that I throughly understand why you would pull the mod. It saddens me to see you guys, the modders, be given shit tools and not have any support from the company who you help keep alive. Hopefully things improve.

[–]EnaiSiaionWinterhold 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you want Bethesda (or any company) to do something, give them a business case. In what way will they lose money if they don't assign man hours to fixing those bugs? How much money? Include proof of your work.

And no, "we will be angry if you don't fix those bugs" is not a business case.

or i will retreat ALL of my mods from your Website

Aaaaaand there we go again, punishing players for something they can't help. I'm getting tired of authors who do this.

[–]The_Manga_Man[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

so far i have done anything like that, i just want to make sure consequences are known. I still will be modding on nexus though just not supporting beth.net if it comes really that far

[–]PlocktonNLVA 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a mod author I absolutely understand where you are coming from, and share the same frustrations. Honestly, what's the point if they can't even be bothered to respond. This is just frustration now and I really am starting to hate this game. The fact we have to go to such lengths to get a response from one of their biggest contributors speaks volumes.

[–]Bozzie_Baranta 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

that doesnt land in bethesdas hands. theyll pass it off (if they dont thatd be great btw) and it will hurt the people who use your mods. shit rolls down hill, not up.

[–]Obsidian-K 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But if console players aren't seeing much in the way of mods and they complain and sales drop off, perhaps Bethesda will take notice.

[–]so_dericious -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Between this and the precombined meshes of FO4 making modding for FO4 kind of impossible due to massive lag if you bork parts of it, I kind of wonder if they had modders in mind with the new CK at all, or if it was just a way to artificially boost the game's life-time for extra money. :/

[–]XxNuGxX 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

RemindMe! 30 days

[–]RemindMeBot 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I will be messaging you on 2017-03-03 17:55:46 UTC to remind you of this link.

CLICK THIS LINK to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.

Parent commenter can delete this message to hide from others.

FAQs Custom Your Reminders Feedback Code Browser Extensions

[–]CubeTriangled -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

aren't you the guy who made a mod using stolen assets?

[–]gentlemen21 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

such hubris.

bethesda owe you nothing. you chose to mod knowing the arrangements. you could say to self "ck is broken so i won't mod" but instead have temper tantrum.

you are mindful enough to note writing in anger but still post here so others can soothe you.

temper tantrums not likely to cause them to say "oh no mangaman will pull his mods! better fix CK now!"

take deep breathe or find other hobby. nobody making you mod you chose to.

also maybe not so you make no money. you allow donation and you gain notoriety. your reason for modding are your own.

[–]The_Manga_Man[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

i certainly have decided to start modding with broken tools because i expected a sense of support from bethesta when they notice their modding tools are broken. So yes i reported bugs and hoped for updates that never came. All modders so far got ignored about CK bugs and its time for a change. This whole rant is just about how i am not willing to work on this anymore if things won't get fixed - well, to be more precise not supporting bethesta.net anymore if they do now show support for us - i still would continue modding on the nexus. Also Beth. owes us modder ALOT! - the money they got from users that just bought SSE for the modding ability is most likley over several millions. Also it is in the concern of a company to stay true to their content they give out. If my mods have bugs i feel ambtous to fix them - hell i even replyd to almost every comment that has been made for every mod i made the last years and thats for free! So i can expect atleast a fragment of communication from bethesda about this.

[–]gentlemen21 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

i understand rant purpose but rant falls on deaf ear often.

everything you say based on 'expect'. who care what you 'expect'?

'expect' is dangerous assumption that is causing you become emotional. what you expect and what is reality maybe no in alignment.

correlation is not causation. it is only your belief that beth made millions on hard work of modders. i agree assessment but cannot prove and suspect number is lower.

you think you deserve something but beth never promised.

should they fix ck? of course. no arguement. but entitled hubris unseemly.

do they have to? no. they gave free tool for you to hobby. quite different story than microsoft selling you word that doesn't add paragraphs.

all of what you think you deserve is based upon what you chose to do. nobody made you answer 100 questions. nobody made you mod. you chose it and enjoy it.

you seem calm now so maybe see that temper tantrum is easy to ignore. beth maybe never read here so you post original post only to gripe. unproductive. maybe better to start petition or other more mature communication.

certainly support for fixed ck will be easy to drum up but 'expect because they make money' is nonsense.

[–]saris01Whiterun 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

They owe us what every software company owes us, a product that works with as few bugs as possible.

[–]zctrlezpz 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

While that is a lofty thought, they really don't owe us anything, and neither does any other software company. And the fact that money continues to roll into their pockets from sales of SSE will convince Beth even less of what "they owe" to their customers.

[–]gentlemen21 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ck is not 'product'. ck is 'free bonus'. sse was free bonus for old owners. you did not pay for sse nor for ck unless you bought new version. and then new version works well.

do beth hope or know that modders make beth games more valuable? probably.

does beth count on mods helping to sell product? certain.

do beth games have bugs? many.

do they owe you anything? no.

would be good for beth to fix ck? yes. new version make many things harder to do.

my meaning above and now is this is over emotional temper tantrum based on assumptions of what you think is deserved.

hard to convince otherwise if you think they are in continued debt to you for something you did not buy.

[–]EnaiSiaionWinterhold 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No company OWES anything to their customers (unless a contract is signed). The customers are free to take their money elsewhere to CD Projekt Red.

[–]RIPBlueRaven -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I'm not a modder but hasn't it kinda always been the modder's job to fix all the broken shit bethesda releases? I've been using mods since oblivion and just always assumed bethesda was under the impression of "here's our game, your problem now". And I've always thought it was more or less accepted that way.

[–]sheson 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

the modder's job to fix all the broken shit bethesda release

Oh for fucks sake no it isn't. We are not talking about some misplaced object here and a typo there. We are talking about game/CK breaking stuff.

CK has always been just barely working.

Bethesdas now goes all out with mod support this and mod support that on their own official servers. Over 3 million copies of Skyrim SE sold on Xbone 1 and PS4. If they want mods being created and available on their platform, they better make sure their tools and game work.

[–]The_Manga_Man[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If i could Mod creation Kit and fix it, you have seen me on it already since months

[–]saris01Whiterun 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (8子コメント)

um, he is talking about the CK, not the game. Constantly fixing bugs caused by simply using the tool you are supposed to mod with is tiring, and should not be happening. If Bethesda wants to promote modding, they really should make sure their damn tools are not so buggy.

[–]The_Manga_Man[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, it is like fixing cars with broken tools resulting in breaking the car again and the boss doesn't listen or does something about this even if he knows since months. But in my case i do not ge paid for this.

[–]RIPBlueRaven -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm confused as to how they even made sse work then. If you guys are saying the ck is so buggy then why does the game run well? Is it just a problem when you port old assets from old mods over?

[–]saris01Whiterun 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Do you actually think Bethesda used the CK to make Skyrim? Really?

No, they did not use the CK to make Skyrim. If they had, the CK would not be so buggy because they would have fixed it.

The oldrim CK is buggy as well, the SE CK is just worse.

[–]RIPBlueRaven 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Didn't bethesda say they used the ck to make skyrim?

[–]saris01Whiterun 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They hacked apart the tool they did use to make the CK. There were tools in there that they could not release to the public because of licensing issues.

[–]ThallassaBeep Boop 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They did use the CK to make Skyrim. The difference is they got paid to do it. Also, they're professionals accustomed to even worse tools than the CK.

Hobbyists, even very good ones, are not expected to have the same level of patience.

[–]ThallassaBeep Boop 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

They surely did.

The difference is they got paid to do it. Also, they're professionals accustomed to even worse tools than the CK.

Hobbyists, even very good ones, are not expected to have the same level of patience.

[–]saris01Whiterun 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They hacked up their version to get our version and left a few ragged edges in the process.

[–]Papples -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm not sure anger can be used to justify Capitalising random Words. If you want them to take you seriously, maybe consider rewriting it?

[–]AnUnquietHistory 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

He's German you dork, it's not his first language

[–]Papples 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I mean, do they capitalise random words in German?

[–]echothebunnySolitude 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No. They capitalize proper nouns. It's not random.

[–]Papples -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That makes sense. Still, it looks like crap, and if I worked at Bethesda I'd assume he was a bit off in the head.

[–]AnUnquietHistory 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

German does all kinds of weird shit you wouldn't believe, God bless 'em