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Hard Brexit: Theresa May to announce withdrawal from single market to get 'clean break' from EU (independent.co.uk)

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[–]Upper Normandy (France)liptonreddit 48 ポイント49 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I've never been married, but i'm already sick of divorce. I just can't wait for this to be over.

[–]Île-de-France201109212215 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some have said it could take 10 years.

With luck, we'll only have 2. Or 1.5 if we're following the wishes of the commissioners.

[–]Europehexmap 139 ポイント140 ポイント  (62子コメント)

it's like go ALL IN with a low pair on pre-flop ..

[–]EurophileIzamel 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I like that comparison.

[–]Europehexmap 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (8子コメント)

It is all about game theory ... ;-) lots of scientific papers and some serious Nobel prizes ... Negotiations, Conflicts, Cooperative/Non-cooperative, Symmetric/Asymmetric, Zero-sum/Non-zero-sum ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

[–]Est Europa nunc unita!weneedtofederalize 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (4子コメント)

it's all about game theory

Yes. Varoufakis sure proved that in handling the Greek debt crisis negotiations with the EU!

[–]YURP!Trollatopoulous 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Varoufakis got betrayed by his PM.

Listen to this interview if you want to learn more.

Besides, knowing what the best moves are and being able to make those moves are two separate things.

[–]Canadainhuman44 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Varoufakis is an idiot who let his ego get the best of him. He promised way more than he could have reasonably hoped to deliver and thought his training in economics would somehow magically make it work. He acted he had the upper hand, but the other side called his bluff and told him off.

[–]Est Europa nunc unita!weneedtofederalize 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That interview looks decent. I've watched the first 14 minutes, will finish it. Thank you for sharing it.

[–]YURP!Trollatopoulous 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No worries, hope you enjoy!

[–]GermanyTeutonindahood 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

In Tit for Tat you start friendly though.

[–]European Uniontrolls_brigade 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

They use the established Shock and Awe approach. The end goal is to win the hearts and minds of Europeans.

[–]European Unionour_best_friend 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sensible, it worked so well in the Middle East...

[–]Belgiumzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzspaf 45 ポイント46 ポイント  (8子コメント)

But dude, if all the other fold it'll be awesome /s

[–]LithuaniaPenki- 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Playing with +20 players at the table with anyone being able to call it with monopoly cards is a risky business

[–]superballsMcgeeJr 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

If my +20 opponents are using monopoly cards to play poker, there probably not very experienced players.

[–]European Uniontrolls_brigade 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (2子コメント)

if your 27 opponents use Monopoly and you play Poker, you may be in the wrong game

[–]Genetically101 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Either way I'm getting naked

[–]Je ne Bregrette rien...Trucidator 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We were in the wrong game from the start. We had different ideas about what the game should look like.

[–]LithuaniaPenki- 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Are they or are you? After all they can win against you with monopoly cards

[–]superballsMcgeeJr 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

After all they can win against you with monopoly cards

So you have a full house and they beat you with park lane with 2 hotels?

[–]Dutchy living down South. | Yay EU!H0agh 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That sick rental income bro.

[–]Île-de-France201109212215 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

But does she have a choice?

I mean, this is the baseline of the negotiation: we go back to not being any treaty between the UK and the EU.

What she is doing here is preparing the public to it.

[–]SwedenSomedudeelsewhere 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (25子コメント)

Not really fair to go ''ALL-IN'' on a 52-48 vote. Feel bad for the British who did not want disconnect them self from Europe economically as culturally in this mob rule mentality :(

[–]Momentum known, location ambiguous.Cataphractoi 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (22子コメント)

Well that is what happens when an advisory referendum that ends with an extremely narrow margin is taken as "THE will of the people TM"

[–]SwedenSomedudeelsewhere 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Oh I forgot it was not even legally binding referendum that May want to go full Ochlocracy on.

[–]Momentum known, location ambiguous.Cataphractoi 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Except the British people have an idee fixe that they should go through with it regardless of the consequences. They would rather do that than protect themselves and their future.

コメントをもっと表示する (17 返事)

    [–]United Kingdomexcept_brits 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yup. It's a bitch. Still, in forty years maybe we can rejoin.

    [–]dasburgerbunz 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    pretty much 100% of people in the thread are forgetting MPs will have a vote on the final brexit deal she / the government proposes.

    [–]arselona 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    She has pretty much said the same thing every month since October.

    Can you explain why you think the UK has a low pair? And also why you think the EU has a good hand?

    [–]"We scientists are clever - too clever." -Richard FeynmanKretenkobr2 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    more like ALL OUT

    [–]renergade54 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Actually all in, you cant bet all out.

    [–]United Kingdomratbacon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Not much choice, our negotiating range is polarised.

    [–]Tuscanykepke78 71 ポイント72 ポイント  (53子コメント)

    The Eu won't compromise its own existence allowing the UK to do a cherry picking on the 4 freedoms. So there's no space for a fair compromise between the two parts and personally I don't want to concede another convenient opt out to the British.

    [–]United KingdomTaure 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (50子コメント)

    The EU has trade deals with a variety of non-EU countries that are the definition of "cherry picking". That's what any FTA is - free trade within certain limits in specified areas.

    The current British thinking appears to be to offer "one step short of freedom of movement for one step short of the single market". The "one step short" of freedom of movement is a guaranteed work visa for any EU citizen with a job offer in the UK (and vice versa). The "one step short" of the single market is tariff-free access but no passporting or lowering of non-tariff barriers.

    [–]EuropeanR_K_M 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    The common market is not an FTA.

    [–]United KingdomTaure 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Which is the whole point. Elements of the common market can be separated out from it and offered to countries as part of FTA negotiations. For example, tariff free movement of goods is a part of the common market, and is something that Canada now has with the EU.

    AKA cherry picking.

    Edit: also, it's arguable that the common market is an FTA. Were the 4 freedoms actually true it would not be an FTA, but the common market does not yet exist. There remain huge non-tariff barriers which limit the movement of capital and services.

    [–]The NetherlandsSjoerd920 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Edit: also, it's arguable that the common market is an FTA. Were the 4 freedoms actually true it would not be an FTA, but the common market does not yet exist. There remain huge non-tariff barriers which limit the movement of capital and services.

    It's not. It is a single system of (almost its not finnished yet) single regulations and equal access. It essentially eliminates all borders for the economy. No state-aid. No complicated legal/administrative work for import or exports. Someone that is part of the single market can import something and just put it on a truck to Germany and from Germany to Sweden etc. Without single market/customs union this is impossible.

    Anecdotal example:

    My father used to work for Dutch Rails. They would order some company in Sweden to build some machines. They would need to do all sorts of tedious paperwork and stop at every border they came across. Nowadays they go to Sweden pay for the damn thing and drive it back in one smooth ride.

    [–]The EU nation named EnglandPerson_of_Earth 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    The EU has trade deals with a variety of non-EU countries that are the definition of "cherry picking". That's what any FTA is - free trade within certain limits in specified areas.

    None of those countries take part in the free movement of services or capital though. They have varying levels of lowering restrictions on the free movement of good, but none of them have any restrictions loosened on the movement of services, the most important of the 4 freedoms for the UK's economy.

    [–]United KingdomOsgood_Schlatter 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    none of them have any restrictions loosened on the movement of services

    That is wrong. The South Korea-EU agreement includes services.

    It is also the most comprehensive the EU has ever negotiated: import duties are near eliminated on all produce and there is deep liberalisation in trade in services.

    [–]Germanysultry_somnambulist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    South Korea has never been part of the European Union, and won't be because it's at the other end of the world. Giving the UK preferential treatment means making yourself vulnerable to blackmail from other member states that want more goodies.

    [–]The NetherlandsSjoerd920 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Bingo, the EU has a choice to make. Damage from a Brexit or constant internal fighting using ....Exit.

    [–]Canadainhuman44 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Exactly. The EU position has nothing to do with protecting "core principles" or any of that nonsense. The EU is perfectly happy to negotiate those principles with other countries. But a successful Brexit would threaten some peoples dreams of a United States of Europe. The EU needs Brexit to be a failure to justify it's own existence. It can't allow other countries to get the idea that they can prosper outside the EU.

    コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

      [–]United KingdomTaure 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      One is somewhat sceptical of the claim that freedom of services and capital are the most important for the UK economy. It's true that the UK economy is dominated by services, but it's not clear at all how much of those depend on EU passporting. The issue being that the EU doesn't actually have free movement of services and capital at all. For all that the EU talks about "the four freedoms", at this stage it's really still just the two freedoms - goods and people. Services and capital never really got off the ground... a cynical person would say because it would benefit Britain more than Germany and France.

      [–]The EU nation named EnglandPerson_of_Earth 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      The issue being that the EU doesn't actually have free movement of services and capital at all.

      Oh really? Can you you name some examples of the restrictions on the movement of services and capital rather than just make a wild claim with nothing to back it up?

      [–]United KingdomTaure 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      If you were at all familiar with the area you would not consider it a wild claim. Before Brexit derailed it, creating a capital markets union was one of the stated priorities of Juncker's presidency. The fact that freedom of movement of capital does not exist within the EU is not a conspiracy theory, it's a widely accepted fact.

      Here's a basic guide to what the capital markets union would involve.

      http://www.politico.eu/article/moving-money-a-capital-markets-union-primer/

      [–]An Adjar in Tuscanyadjarteapot 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

      You're not gonna get any deals that any other non-EU country got before since you're leaving the EU. Unless you follow EU rules, I also don't see your goods entering to the EU freely, and I can't see any chance UK getting some real trade deal without some real freedom of movement since Eastern Europe wouldn't be happy with any other deal.

      [–]United KingdomMr-OldFart 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      You're not gonna get any deals that any other non-EU country got before since you're leaving the EU.

      Yeah we are because half the borrowing done in the rest of the EU is with City of London financial institutions. Basically the City of London owns collateral in half of the EU, something which no other nation does.

      [–]An Adjar in Tuscanyadjarteapot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yeah, if it is the case we can say goodbye to EU since sure other nations would try to leave. Which is a thing that EU can't afford.

      Nobody would really case about who borrowed from where, facing such a thing. I also doubt if UK can use that as a bargaining chip, and if all countries would care about those, especially the Eastern European ones.

      コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

        [–]PepperUrAngus 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        but no passporting

        It's already leaked that the EU (Bernier) wants to keep passporting, or at least create an equivalent piece of legislation for the EU/UK to use.

        [–]European Unionour_best_friend 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        He wants SOME access to financial markets, which is not the same thing. He wants countries to be able to borrow from UK banks, but has no interest in UK based insurance companies and other "services" (I hate that word) doing their trade in the EU. We will have to see how that plays out. It is obviously an advantage for the UK, but not necessarily as big as Brexiters make it out to be.

        [–]Tuscanykepke78 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        So now does the Brexit narration include this wide definition of cherry picking? We're talking about a country, formally still now a member of the EU, that is going to exit the European community. We're talking about a country that has obtained a lot of opt-outs without a real involvement into the European project. So, if you are so eager to exit there's no problem but trying to brake the rules one more time it's a clear action of cherry picking, though.

        [–]Cataloniagawyntrak 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The "one step short" of freedom of movement is a guaranteed work visa for any EU citizen with a job offer in the UK (and vice versa).

        I doubt that the Brexit bunch would agree with this.

        [–]EuropeAndrewthelord 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        every treaty is made as Europe since the 70s. You've basically no treaties now, not even WTO.

        [–]United KingdomTaure 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Britain is an independent signatory of the WTO, so we do have that treaty. What we lack is an independent schedule of tariffs, which is distinct from membership.

        Not sure how any of that is relevant to my post though.

        コメントをもっと表示する (22 返事)

          [–]United Kingdomcragglerock93 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          If I was from another EU country then I wouldn't want to give the UK any special treatment either. But because I'm British I want the UK to keep full tariff-free access to the Single Market, for the sake of our economy. I can completely understand it from your perspective though.

          [–]Tuscanykepke78 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          You're fair in your judgment. I'm really worried about this continent because of the return of far right and multiple enemies at our gates (mainly USA trumpists and Russia) who push for a reduction of the EU's political influence in the world. Maintaining good relations with the UK is important but it's fundamental maintaining the EU solid.

          [–]joeflux 119 ポイント120 ポイント  (298子コメント)

          It's an extremely misleading click-bait title. She is actually just saying that the "government is prepared to abandon the single market".

          This is the only reasonable position to hold when going into negotiations. Because otherwise the negotiations aren't negotiations, but a blood slaughter of the UK.

          Imagine you were one of the EU negotiators and you knew that the UK wasn't prepared to abandon the single market. So you could ask for absolutely anything, knowing that the UK will give it to you.

          Would you hold back?

          [–]European UnionZeurpiet 95 ポイント96 ポイント  (114子コメント)

          since the EU will not split its four freedoms, what do you expect as result?

          the UK will regain full control of its borders, even at the price of single market membership

          The EU demands freedom of movement of workers as price for the single market. I don't think we need higher math to predict the result.

          [–]best side of the channelABaseDePopopopop 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (3子コメント)

          The EU demands freedom of movement of workers as price for the single market.

          It's more like the EU considers freedom of movement one of the essential parts of the single market. Not a separate thing that they artificially attach as a condition.

          [–]United Europetepadno 90 ポイント91 ポイント  (68子コメント)

          the UK will regain full control of its borders

          It sounds as if they're being invaded by somebody. It's just stupid. If there is no demand for a "Lithuanian builder" or a "Polish plumber" the'll just stop coming because there'll be no jobs for them. The country collectively doesn't know what it wants and now it nees to save face because of blunder the brexit vote and all that follow is.

          Probably, in the end Brexiters will have their emotional rollercoaster they so much desire but in practice nothing really changes.

          [–]Consortitus EuropaeusSlusny_Cizinec 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          The country collectively doesn't know what it wants

          They do: they want the works to be done by the cheap workforce, but in the way it won't influence their own incomes. Yes, it's impossible and self-contradicting, but now it's in fashion to want self-contradicting things.

          [–]joeflux 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (57子コメント)

          If there is no demand for a "Lithuanian builder" or a "Polish plumber" the'll just stop coming because there'll be no jobs for them.

          Right. But of course there's always a demand for people to work cheaper. If you had the choice between a UK plumber and a polish plumber who will work for half the price, which would you go for? Obviously the cheaper one. Hence there's a demand.

          The country collectively doesn't know what it wants

          Yes it does. 76% of the country wants immigration reduced. And 50% chose immigration as the most important issue facing them and their family.

          Probably, in the end Brexiters will have their emotional rollercoaster they so much desire but in practice nothing really changes.

          I used to think that too, but now I'm not so sure. I think a hard brexit really might happen.

          [–]Amsterdamsn0r 78 ポイント79 ポイント  (36子コメント)

          But of course there's always a demand for people to work cheaper. If you had the choice between a UK plumber and a polish plumber who will work for half the price, which would you go for? Obviously the cheaper one. Hence there's a demand.

          That doesn't make sense.

          Is it impossible for the UK to enact labour laws like in the Netherlands or Germany where wages are protected (minimum wage)?

          No. Your government chose not to because 'competition is good for business' as well as having a bunch of large investors angling for cheap labour by influencing government policy.

          You're blaming the EU for problems you create yourselves.

          [–]United Kingdomthreep03k64 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          You're blaming the EU for problems you create yourselves.

          I completely agree with you (and am pro-EU).

          But in the UK the voters have had the choice between a pro-immigration Labour, and a Tory party that shifts the blame for the burdens of immigration onto the EU (whilst still wanting the benefits of it), and isn't exactly strong on issues such as workers rights.

          In the UK we need more houses, we need more schools. We need higher social mobility and a lower rent costs etc. But voters aren't really given this option.

          [–]iinavpov 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Actually, there is a minimum wage, and there is also a shortage in builders, as it happens: no builder is paid below a premium over the minimum wage. OP is full of crap.

          [–]Virtarak 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (22子コメント)

          You do know like 90% of plummer are self employed and set their own price.

          [–]Amsterdamsn0r 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (21子コメント)

          In the Netherlands the CAO is industry wide.. So even the self employed plumber is covered by a lawful legal and enforceable social contract between the industry representatives, unions and government... as are any employees he is willing to take on as his business grows.

          That CAO also covers tariffs, so undercutting the competition has a floor.. You can't go below a certain minimum tariff for some services, which stops companies angling for cheap labour that way.

          Is it more expensive for consumers? Marginally. Does it protect our economy from immigration being used as a wage supressor? Hell yes!

          [–]Virtarak 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (20子コメント)

          You're under the assumption everyone is playing by the rules.

          [–]Amsterdamsn0r 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (19子コメント)

          If you're caught violating labour law here your business is basically going to have to be very rich to absorb the damages. You do get the occasional chancer, but they're few and far between. Most small and medium businesses businesses want financial stability continuity.

          [–]UK living in DECaffeinatedT 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (18子コメント)

          That's known as being "anti-business" and "creating red-tape" in the UK and is electoral suicide. And then we wonder why workers get undercut and blame the EU even though everyone else doesn't have this issue.

          [–]joeflux 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

          Is it impossible for the UK to enact labour laws like in the Netherlands or Germany where wages are protected (minimum wage)?

          Huh? Do you think plumbers work at minimum wage? Or are you talking about having a separate minimum wage for each profession?

          [–]Amsterdamsn0r 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          We have a CAO, which sets industry standard wages for each industry, yes.

          Edit: this includes age-related minimum wage increases as well as pensions and overtime and such. It is negotiated for by a threeway panel of industry representatives, government and unions for a number of years.

          [–]Izeinwinter 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Yes. That's entirely compatible with EU law, because a lot of EU nations do things that amount to exactly this

          コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

            [–]United Europetepadno 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            there's always a demand for people to work cheaper

            76% of the country wants immigration reduced

            I don't want to catch you on anything here but as you can see yourself...

            The country collectively doesn't know what it wants

            is kind of true.

            No EU migration = no competition on the market = British plumbers charge British fees = people are happy?

            I honestly don't know where it leads to other than "more wishful thinking" vs "save face and stay".

            Edit

            And then there's this: "Brexit: Britons will not accept being financially worse off by EU withdrawal, poll indicates" http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-live-updates-finances-money-worse-off-article-50-a7468411.html

            [–]joeflux 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            So 76% isn't a good enough consensus for you? Okay, by that standard, pretty much no country collectively knows what it wants about anything.

            No EU migration = no competition on the market = British plumbers charge British fees = people are happy?

            Well it's a British trait to always complain and never be happy :-D

            [–]United Europetepadno 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            So 76% isn't a good enough consensus for you?

            Sorry, that's a misunderstanding. My definition of not knowing what one wants is either literally not knowing or wanting >1 things that exclude each other. Like having a shower without getting wet.

            there's always a demand for people to work cheaper

            76% of the country wants immigration reduced

            How these 2 demands can both be satisfied in the current environment I don't know.

            Import everything and have super-strong currency so that people can afford it? Give people basic income and employ robots? Subsidize plumbers?

            [–]-SA-HatfulOfHollow 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Yes it does. 76% of the country wants immigration reduced. And 50% chose immigration as the most important issue facing them and their family.

            They wanted to "stop the Muslims from coming into this country".

            A United Kingdom voter explained in terms that sounded not unlike the rhetoric of American presidential candidate Donald Trump why he voted to leave the European Union.

            Speaking to Channel 4 News reporter Ciaran Jenkins, the man, who doesn’t give his name, says in no uncertain terms the Brexit referendum vote to leave the trade union was about immigration and really nothing else.

            “It’s all about immigration,” the man said. “It’s not about trade or Europe or anything like that, it’s all about immigration. It’s to stop the Muslims from coming into this country. Simple as that.”

            Jenkins then pressed him, “Do you think you voted to leave the EU to stop Muslims coming to the country?”

            The man said it was to stop immigration.

            “The movement of people in Europe, fair enough,” he said. “But not from Africa, Syria, Iraq, everywhere else. It’s all wrong.”

            https://www.rawstory.com/2016/06/its-to-stop-the-muslims-brexit-voters-reasoning-sounds-disturbingly-like-a-trump-supporter/

            Most Brexit-voting idiots didn't and still don't have a clue what they voted for.

            Freedom of movement is about movement of European citizens within the European Economic Area. It had absolutely nothing to do with immigration from Africa, Syria, Iraq and "everywhere else".

            Let's not pretend this distinction was widely understood by the Brexiteers, because it wasn't.

            Now a million Brits are forced to come back home.

            https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/brits_abroad_in_the_eu_UVloyb5.png

            [–]European UnionTramagust 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (13子コメント)

            Yes it does. 76% of the country wants immigration reduced. And 50% chose immigration as the most important issue facing them and their family.

            Where are you getting these figures from?

            [–]joeflux 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/

            [–]DEADB33F 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (10子コメント)

            I'm not the person you were replying to, but here's a 2015 poll stating 70% wish immigration to be reduced. I can quite easily believe that figure has risen since the Brexit vote.

            Hell, here's the same question but put just to Labour voters... 69% want immigration reduced, that goes up to 83/85% for working class labour voters (C2/DE).

            [–]iinavpov 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            All polls, forever, have shown people think there is too much immigration. Even when it was negative!

            People don't want less migration, they just dislike their neighbours!

            [–]LDNTeakz 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Right. But of course there's always a demand for people to work cheaper. If you had the choice between a UK plumber and a polish plumber who will work for half the price, which would you go for? Obviously the cheaper one. Hence there's a demand

            Well said, I don't understand how people do not understand this. You see it all the time if you are in the construction industry. In my trade some foreign labour work as cheap as £70 a day in London. For a job that should pay £150 - £180.

            [–]United NationAbstractLemgth 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            If you had the choice between a UK plumber and a polish plumber who will work for half the price, which would you go for?

            This is a false dichotomy because immigration does not push down wages.

            http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_uploads/CDP_22_13.pdf

            http://www.oecd.org/els/47326474.pdf

            http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/41954/

            http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/ea019.pdf

            コメントをもっと表示する (9 返事)

              [–]Sir_Aleister 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (32子コメント)

              The EU demands freedom of movement of workers as price for the single market. I don't think we need higher math to predict the result.

              I wouldn't be surprised to see british giving up on this. No Freedom of movement for European in Britain will mean no freedom of movement for British in Europe (our the EU negotiator sucks seriously). Can UK take the risk to have even half of the over a million ( source ) British living in Europe sent back to Britain ?

              [–]joeflux 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (25子コメント)

              Why would that be a risk to the UK? It would suck for the individuals, but how is that a risk to the UK?

              [–]Londonistan/Berlinocularsinister2 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (24子コメント)

              A lot of pensioners coming back from Spain and the Provence perhaps? Somehow I can't see why the EU would want to send back Brits with skills and jobs, but in these crazy times who knows?

              [–]joeflux 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (23子コメント)

              A lot of pensioners coming back from Spain and the Provence perhaps?

              Would that actually hurt the UK if those pensioners returned? It's a genuine question. I honestly have no idea.

              [–]Waterbeetles 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

              It could put a lot more strain on the NHS, which is already struggling to cope with demand.

              [–]Austrianigl_ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              If a british pensioner in Spain gets treatment the NHS already has to pay for it.

              [–]iinavpov 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              The money is one thing. But the NHS has a shortage of personnel and beds on top of that. It would be very bad, never mind the costs.

              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                [–]United KingdomBlussy96 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (17子コメント)

                It benefits us because they will spend all their retirement money here instead of Spain, but hurts us because like the other guy said, they are old, no longer work, and require more healthcare on average.

                [–]Cataloniagawyntrak 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                It benefits us because they will spend all their retirement money here instead of Spain.

                Many British pensioners in Spain move because their pound goes further here than back home, particularly as they move to any cheap place as long as it has sun an sea. You may find that many of those pensioners are not able to maintain themselves in Britain.

                コメントをもっと表示する (16 返事)

                  [–]Londonistan/Berlinocularsinister2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Its hard to say for certain, but older people need more health care.

                  [–]Hubbletubble 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                  The UK has repeatedly said that as long as the EU respects the rights of our citizens who are currently residing in EU countries, we will reciprocate.

                  No one in the UK is talking about forcing people to leave. If the EU did actually do this to our citizens, the opinion of it here in the UK would fall to an all time low.

                  [–]Consortitus EuropaeusSlusny_Cizinec 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                  The UK has repeatedly said that as long as the EU respects the rights of our citizens who are currently residing in EU countries

                  This right will end with the Brexit, unless negotiated otherwise. By default, there's no right to be in EU for a third country citizen.

                  [–]United KingdomINeed3Quid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Phew, that should make it a lot faster.

                  コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

                    [–]European Unionour_best_friend 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (116子コメント)

                    You guys have this really annoying attitude whereas the EU is trying to screw the UK and the UK needs to play tricks. It's not a game of bloody poker. It's a negotiation where two (ex) partners come to a mutually beneficial agreement. Normally both sides put their cards on the table, see what common ground there is, what compromises need to be made, and work on that. The UK cannot bluff their way, it's not like poker where your "opponent" has to make a move there and then. If the UK pulls an ace out of their sleeve, the EU can simply walk away" think about it, and come back with a response. Much better to be open and get on with it.

                    [–]Bern (Switzerland)Lejeune_Dirichelet 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (24子コメント)

                    Normally both sides put their cards on the table

                    The EU said clearly it was not going to discuss anything informally before the official start of negotiations, so that's not going to happen

                    [–]European UnionNew-Atlantis 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    The EU doesn't have to do any unofficial talks exactly because the EU position is entirely clear. If the Brits pretend not to understand it, there is nothing we can do about that.

                    [–]European Unionour_best_friend 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (15子コメント)

                    They have made their position and demands clear though. It's the UK who haven't.

                    [–]Federal Yuroparagonkingofgonder 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                    You're talking about completely different things,the EU is doing this because it wants to avoid the UK slowing the negotiations forever and not leaving by 2019,not because of some delusion of playingwith the cards really close to the chest

                    [–]Bern (Switzerland)Lejeune_Dirichelet 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    The UK will be out 2 years after notification of art. 50. It's all negotiation politics.

                    [–]Federal Yuroparagonkingofgonder 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    That's what I'm saying,that all the UK needs to do is trigger article 50,but the EU doesn't want informal negotiations taking forever and the UK not having activated art.50 by 2018

                    [–]Not with SC I swearTurminder_Xuss 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    The two years can be extended by mutual consent. If the negotiations look like an agreement can be found, but more time is needed, such an extension surely will be agreed on.

                    [–]European Uniontrolls_brigade 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    This statement makes no sense. Who asked the British to put their cards on the table before the negotiations start?

                    [–]United KingdomMrZakalwe 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                    Normally both sides put their cards on the table, see what common ground there is, what compromises need to be made, and work on that.

                    That's not the was the Netherlands are going to play it, it seems.

                    They want assurances the UK wont compete with them for tax avoidance champion or they will scupper everything.

                    So in this case one side is waving a gun.

                    [–]The Netherlandsterror406 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    "The Netherlands" as in "a politician 2 months before the election that is expected to obliterate the remains of his party and destroy his hopes of ever becoming prime minister".

                    edit: an election that may very well see an anti-EU party as the winner.

                    [–]European Unionour_best_friend 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    Exactly. They are putting their cards on the table and being open about it.

                    [–]joeflux 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                    Then so are we - by saying that we're willing to walk away from a terrible deal.

                    [–]European Unionour_best_friend 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    That would be idiotic, given that the EU is by far our biggest trading partner

                    [–]joeflux 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    That's idiotic. Unless you think that having that trading partner is literally worth an infinite amount, then it's worth a finite amount. If the EU ask for more than that amount, then it's better for us to walk away.

                    [–]United KingdomINeed3Quid 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    It would be idiotic for the EU too though.

                    [–]European UnionZeurpiet 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    you mean the latest election rhetoric from one Dutch party?

                    [–]European Uniontrolls_brigade 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Regardless, he has a good point which was voiced previously by the Danes and Swedes.

                    [–]European UnionNew-Atlantis 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    No, the Netherlands is simply saying that if the UK tried tax dumping or promote tax avoidance to get an unfair advantage, then the EU will have to take countermeasures.

                    The more the UK threatens the EU with tax dumping and tax avoidance schemes, the harder Brexit will be. That is normal.

                    [–]teatree -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                    It's a negotiation where two (ex) partners come to a mutually beneficial agreement.

                    That's how Cameron approached it and got nothing for his pains.

                    I think it has become clear to Britain that Europe is our enemy and simply wants to leach our money and export their unemployed to us. And don't forget that in the 20th century Europe was a hotbed of dictators, fascists and communists and other murderers. In our minds Europe is labelled "here be nut-jobs", and the only way to deal with them is by taking a hard line.

                    Hard Brexit will allow us to negotiate deals with other countries, we can replace French wine with Australian vintages, Irish lamb with New Zealand lamb and so on. We can put a deal with Europe on the backburner, arrange subsititues for ALL European products with others with no tariffs while applying WTO tariffs to EU goods, and then wait to see what Europe offer us to remove those tariffs.

                    [–]European Unionour_best_friend 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    Ladies and Gentlemen: The Unhinged ramblings of a Brexiter

                    [–]teatree 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                    You know you have lost the argument when you resort to abuse right?

                    You need to accept that we are hard brexiting, we don't trust the europeans enough to believe they will give us a good deal, so we are going full speed ahead with deals with everyone else and after we are done, we'll deal with Europe. And if our imports from them shrink in the meanwhile, so much the better, a few redundancies in the car factories of Europe will increase the pressure on them. Really we should go for a full-on boycott of European goods to squeeze them hard while they are still in a fragile situation, what with their euro-crisis and all.

                    [–]European Unionour_best_friend 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    Who's trying to argue? With people who comes out with stuff like

                    I think it has become clear to Britain that Europe is our enemy and simply wants to leach our money and export their unemployed to us

                    and

                    in the 20th century Europe was a hotbed of dictators, fascists and communists and other murderers

                    Please. You are not worth it, I have better stuff to do

                    [–]teatree 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Which bit is untrue? Is there a single European country apart from Switzerland that hasn't gone through a phase of fascism, communism or dictatorship in the 20th century?

                    [–]Sacrebuse 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Thank you for the laughs.

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                      コメントをもっと表示する (73 返事)

                        [–]Izeinwinter 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                        ... It's not a matter of holding back. Once article 50 triggers, there are only two outcomes which the EU side of negotiations can accept - accept meaning, outcomes the EU will survive in the long term.

                        The UK can join the EEA with all that entails. The Norway option. This lets the UK keep the common market, but is also likely to be very politically humiliating to the UK government, because well, it's basically the EU minus having any influence.

                        And B: The UK refuses to accept free movement and looses all of the four freedoms. At best, the brits currently abroad get their rights of residence grandfathered in, but even that would depend on the grandfathering being mutual, which.. Uhm.

                        There's nothing to negotiate here - the EU can't accept any compromise on the four freedoms, because those are what the EU are. Give ground there, and the project is over. So the negotiating team isn't going to move a milimeter on them, so the only actual choices on the table are EEA, Hard Brexit and Procrastinating on triggering art 50 for the next fifty years until everyone forgets it was ever mentioned.

                        [–]UK living in DECaffeinatedT 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        The UK refuses to accept free movement and looses all of the four freedoms. At best, the brits currently abroad get their rights of residence grandfathered in, but even that would depend on the grandfathering being mutual, which.. Uhm.

                        Not even that, at WORST Brits abroad will just revert to the normal non-EU procedures and get visa sponsorship/residency/citizenships etc. We don't need saving by our government. We aren't the ones getting chased up for paperwork or feeling worried about being kicked out, and it's laughable that May is trying to claim we're being held hostage when we're the ones who just want our own government to get its shit together and stop trying to give it the billy big-bollocks.

                        コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

                          [–]United NationAbstractLemgth 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (17子コメント)

                          It's an extremely misleading click-bait title. She is actually just saying that the "government is prepared to abandon the single market". This is the only reasonable position to hold when going into negotiations. Because otherwise the negotiations aren't negotiations, but a blood slaughter of the UK.

                          'We are prepared to shoot ourselves in the face! you better be scared, rEU!'

                          [–]joeflux 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                          It's not about making them scared. It's about simply trying to make it clear that they can't just ask for absolutely anything, thinking that no matter what we'd give it to them. For example, the EU wanting to charge the UK 60 billion euros.

                          [–]United NationAbstractLemgth 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          But they can ask for absolutely anything, because going to most-favoured country status would be disastrous. You're acting like our negotiating strength is particularly good here, when we have no properly trained negotiators, a time limit working against us, and an economic downturn if we don't secure several things which we need. Ironically, the UK is learning the difference between the negotiating power of one economy, and the negotiating power of >25 economies, a bit too late.

                          For the record, £60 billion alone is only a portion of the 'EU effect' (trade which would not have happened without the single market), which is £130 billion (page 10). Not that that makes a £60bn bill reasonable, but it's not like they're asking for the house keys.

                          [–]joeflux 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          But they can ask for absolutely anything

                          Well, I meant ask and expect to get :-)

                          Because as May said, we need to be prepared to walk away.

                          because going to most-favoured country status would be disastrous.

                          Did you mean least-favoured?

                          You're acting like our negotiating strength is particularly good here,

                          Uh, no I'm not. I haven't acted like that at all. I've consistently used terms like "clear that they can't just ask for absolutely anything" and "give us an absolutely terrible deal".

                          Our negotiating strength is weak. But we have two choices. 1) We have a weak negotiating strength, by threatening to walk away if they offer us an absolutely terrible deal. 2) We have zero negotiating strength, by saying that we'll just accept even an absolutely terrible deal.

                          It should be obvious to anyone that the first option is better.

                          Ironically, the UK is learning the difference between the negotiating power of one economy, and the negotiating power of >25 economies, a bit too late.

                          Of course we knew it. You're acting like this is all new.

                          For the record, £60 billion alone is only a portion of the 'EU effect' (trade which would not have happened without the single market), which is £130 billion (page 10). Not that that makes a £60bn bill reasonable, but it's not like they're asking for the house keys.

                          I certainly agree that the £60 billion alone wouldn't be a deal breaker, but this is just the tip of the iceburg. Like you yourself stated, we are in a terrible negotiating position.

                          [–]United NationAbstractLemgth 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          I kinda see what you're driving at now, but i'm not convinced that any bad deal which the EU will offer us will be worse than our simply walking away. That is to say, I don't see any situation where walking away is really on the table.

                          [–]joeflux 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          but i'm not convinced that any bad deal which the EU will offer us will be worse than our simply walking away.

                          Well, I don't have your faith and optimism :-)

                          [–]United KingdomINeed3Quid 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                          more like

                          "we aren't going to let you rape us"

                          [–]United NationAbstractLemgth 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I don't think it's the EU's fault if the country voluntarily jumps off a bridge.

                          コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

                            [–]United Kingdomback-in-black 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                            I don't think you get it.

                            The UK will go all in as a corporate tax haven off the coast of Europe if we're denied access to the single market. The EU is saying in order to be in the single market the UK needs to accept freedom of movement, which it won't do.

                            This is about letting the EU hardliners who want to give us a collective punishment beating know that we are prepared to go with hard brexit, and that it won't be nice for them either.

                            [–]United NationAbstractLemgth 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                            The UK will go all in as a corporate tax haven off the coast of Europe if we're denied access to the single market.

                            We'll lose passporting, and all the banks will move to Ireland, which is already a tax haven. Also by the way, saying 'we'll become a tax haven and screw over our entire population' might sound like a great negotiating tactic (???), but i don't think it'll do very good for Tory reelection prospects.

                            [–]America Fuck YeahSpartan448 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            The EU, both in terms of services that require passporting and services that don't, barely makes up 7% of the UK's finance industry. On top of that, more European firms use passporting to access the UK than vice versa.

                            The vast majority of the UK's business has always come from the US and Asia. To put things in perspective, London clears more USD per year than New York City.

                            [–]jl45 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Get away from here with your inconvenient facts

                            [–]United Kingdomback-in-black 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            We'll lose passporting, and all the banks will move to Ireland,

                            I have worked in this industry on occasion. The banks will probably move a small proportion of their operations (that depend on passporting) to places like Dublin, but they wont move all their operations. Not by a long shot. That would be expensive, and more than a little bonkers.

                            which is already a tax haven. Also by the way, saying 'we'll become a tax haven and screw over our entire population' might sound like a great negotiating tactic (???),

                            So wait... Ireland being a tax haven is fine, but the UK opting to be one is somehow terrible? How does that work? Have Ireland "screwed over their entire population "?

                            but i don't think it'll do very good for Tory reelection prospects.

                            Well you took a weird turn there. Even the Tories aren't cynical enough to care only about the next reelection when faced with a major change in the nations future direction.

                            [–]United Kingdomchrisawhitmore 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            The banks were in London before the EU was a thing, they'll be there long after it stops being one.

                            [–]European UnionNew-Atlantis 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (17子コメント)

                            To the EU it's not about negotiating tactics, it's about maintaining the integrity of the single market. If it's just negotiating tactics on her side, she is barking up the wrong tree and will end up with a ship wreck.

                            [–]ALDEjtalin -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (19子コメント)

                            Would you hold back?

                            Why would they hold back either way?

                            UK economy isn't prepared to leave the single market, that's everything the EU negotiators need to know.

                            [–]joeflux 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (18子コメント)

                            Why would they hold back either way?

                            Because if they know that we're willing to say no to a terrible deal, then it's in their interest to be somewhat fair.

                            UK economy isn't prepared to leave the single market, that's everything the EU negotiators need to know.

                            Wrong, because it's mostly irrelevant to the EU negotiators how much the UK suffers. If they give us a terrible deal and we say no and our economy takes a beating, that's not really win for the EU.

                            [–]ALDEjtalin 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (14子コメント)

                            The point is that they can look beyond May's words and evaluate for themselves how much UK is really willing to commit to a hard Brexit, then adjust their negotiating strategy accordingly.

                            Besides, there's very little for EU to even do in the negotiations apart from handling technical details of the transition. It's the UK that decides what they want for themselves out of the options that are on the table.

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                              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                [–]Pothje 55 ポイント56 ポイント  (22子コメント)

                                I had an argument with a UK girl aged 25: she said the EU was responsible for "throwing their elderly out of their homes", among other things. It's insane how uninformed these brexit votes were cast...

                                [–]SwedentheCroc 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                British politicians have spent the last 40 years blaming every domestic policy failure and scandal on the EU. Uninformed voters have bought into it and think that if it wasnt for the EU the UK would be a glorious utopia.

                                [–]Arnox47 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                No they haven't. There are many times when politicians claim the EU is part of a problem and people are very quick to claim that all they do is blame every problem entirely on the EU.

                                [–]superballsMcgeeJr 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                I spoke to someone who said he was voting to remain in the EU because he didn't want the UK to leave NATO and get invaded by Russia.

                                Guess that anecdote means all of us who voted remain are uninformed idiots. /s

                                [–]8eeblebrox 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                I had an argument with a UK girl aged 25

                                That's a HUGE sample size!

                                It's insane how uninformed these brexit votes were cast...

                                It's insane how untrained statisticians can extrapolate results from no data!

                                [–]United KingdomBlussy96 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                And I have never heard anyone say such a thing, so based on that, I can make a valid conclusion that everybody was perfectly informed.

                                [–]IrelandHastatus_107 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                Not surprised. Cameron didn't agree with Brexit but still called the referendum because his priority was to stay on as leader of the party. May will do the same thing for the same reasons.

                                She could be bluffing but I doubt it.

                                [–]EuropeFullConsortium 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                I shake my fist one more time before I sink my own ship.

                                [–]8eeblebrox 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                This ship is not for sinking.

                                [–]Baden-Württemberg (Germany)manthew 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                You could have said "..not for turning" and it will work just as well.

                                [–]standy85 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                This ship is not for sinking.

                                they used to say this about the Titanic as well. Oh, what a coincidence, the Titanic was made in Britain too!

                                [–]European UnionNew-Atlantis 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                Mam, if you don't buy me that lollipop I'll stop breathing, I swear I will. You will be sorry when I'm dead.

                                [–]Swedish, in JapanJanneJM 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                It's a defensible position at least. The vote was to leave the eu, and that would mean a complete break, good parts and bad. Sever all connections, rebuild the economy with no eh dependencies, then start from zero to gradually build a new economic relationship with the European members and the single market.

                                It would take many years of course, and have a deep effect on the economy. But it would be honest and in both spirit and letter of the vote result.

                                [–]Jedibeeftrix 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                Sever all connections, rebuild the economy with no eh dependencies, then start from zero to gradually build a new economic relationship with the European members and the single market.

                                lol, that has no bearing on anyone's reality, brexiter or eu-thusiast.

                                [–]United NationAbstractLemgth 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                The vote was to leave the eu

                                The entire national argument is 'what did we just vote on?', with all the hard euroskeptics insisting that it meant the single market too (but please ignore when they said that we'd remain in the single market), all the remainers saying it means no such thing, and all the soft leave voters looking at their feet and thinking 'jesus fucking christ what have i done'.

                                [–]Swedish, in JapanJanneJM 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                Yes, exactly. I'm not saying "Brexit Hard" is a good idea; but I do think it would be an honest approach, in that it's both achievable and in line with one fairly common and consistent interpretation of the election result.

                                [–]United NationAbstractLemgth 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                one fairly common and consistent interpretation of the election result.

                                But this isn't the case. Bearing in mind that the vote was 51.8%, and that all the leave parties before had said in their manifestos 'we will remain within the single market', a lot of people who did vote leave are feeling deceived. Add to that all of the opinion polls which say that a majority of people would vote remain if brexit made them worse off, and we can say that there's no democratic mandate for a hard brexit.

                                [–]EssexEliVlach 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                UK trade with the EU has been decline for years, now it's just a minority-majority of trade.

                                Besides all this talk about Free Trade, forgets that the UK has no official free trade agreement with the US - tariffs are at something like 2%-6% and we trade quite freely. (This historically exceptionally low, tariffs for much of the 18th and 19th century made up the bulk of government revenue - free trade is a myth, purely ideological)

                                You've got to wonder what all

                                [–]United KingdomHPB 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                You've got to wonder what all

                                Come on you tease...

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                                  [–]Greecegroatt86 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (28子コメント)

                                  The moment this is announced, GBP/USD is going to drop hundreds of pips, daytraders are going to make some nice money off this.

                                  [–]Englandbinbonban 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (27子コメント)

                                  And UK exporters. Business will be booming for some UK companies over the next few months.

                                  [–]Scotlandmojojo42 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  And UK exporters. Business will be booming for some UK companies over the next few months.

                                  Assuming they, and their suppliers, don't need to actually import anything to produce their goods.

                                  [–]ItalyAvengerDr 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (25子コメント)

                                  What about UK importers? A few months ago, the nearest petrol station had Diesel at 1.09 £/l. Now it's 1.20 £/l.

                                  [–]superp321 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                  Scotland drills its own petroleum up north right? off sea rigs or something like that.

                                  [–]United Kingdomchrisawhitmore 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  Oh no, petrol prices have almost reached 2011 levels (in absolute terms, obviously in real terms they're still below that)

                                  Pack it up lads, we're finished as a country.

                                  [–]ItalyAvengerDr 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  The point being that if it wasn't for Brexit, this wouldn't have happened. At least, not in this magnitude.

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                                    [–]superp321 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    The rules are ironclad and so what did they expect, now who does this hurt more? I think this is bad for everyone. If Europeans think this wont sting then you're all in for a surprise. The British people understood the risk and took it, however our European leaders never told us the risks involved in the stance they took. Ironclad, non negotiation, take it or leave it. Now European citizens will have to deal with the consequences.

                                    [–]DaleyT 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                    Sigh.. All Merkel had to do was give Cameron something on immigration and none of this would be happening.

                                    [–]BobNull 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    That would have won the referendum (probably) but it wouldn't have been the end of the matter. It would have remained a deeply divisive topic in the UK.

                                    [–]EuropeDev__ 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                    Sigh.. All Merkel had to do was give Cameron something on immigration and none of this would be happening.

                                    Special deal for UK - I think the EU ruled that out before the campaign for referendum. During campaign and after the referendum. Four freedoms

                                    [–]Momentum known, location ambiguous.Cataphractoi 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                    Oh, you mean capitulate completely and violate one of the fundamental freedoms of the EU? I'm sorry, but the UK doesn't get to pick and choose what to keep without giving something while being a member.

                                    [–]Scotlandmojojo42 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    Sigh.. All Merkel had to do was give Cameron something on immigration and none of this would be happening.

                                    There is literally nothing Merkel could have given Cameron that would have appeased the UK media.

                                    [–]European UnionRarehero 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    Good thing then that she didn't and the UK cannot threaten the EU with the prospect of leaving the EU. The Leavers did that to themselves. By the way, Merkel doesn't decide such things for the rest of the EU.

                                    [–]AeiyDay 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    oh shi buy dollars

                                    [–]ScotlandJamie54 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                    I don't mind compromise with the EU. I hope it doesn't go to WTO rules. I don't mind if there is compromise on immigration. But i'm mainly just relieved we finally have a PM sticking up for Britain. I never thought i'd be happy with a prime minister but May is strong.

                                    [–]Austrianidrach 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                    It will always go to WTO rules first. Any followup trade agreement will have to be negotiated after the fact and nit during the severance talks.

                                    [–]European Unionrtft 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    Yeah , the UK doesn't seem to get that. Legally it's impossible for the commission to negotiate an FTA until the UK is a 3rd country, which necessitates a full exit.

                                    [–]Gotebe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    British PMs have been sticking up for Britan, that's how Britain got various exceptions to EU rules

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                                      [–]Gotebe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      That's the only thing that reasonably can happen. I say it's a shame and not good for either side, but the British had their sovereign vote.

                                      [–]dasburgerbunz 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      Funny, the BBC article says that the idea of her announcing a "hard brexit" is just speculation.

                                      Reports have suggested she will signal pulling out of the EU single market and customs union, although Downing Street described this as "speculation".

                                      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38628428

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