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Why does transgenderism seem to be mostly embraced by white middle class people? (self.GenderCritical)

Question-the-QuoStill Learning が 投稿

Are there just as many transgender POC, or more, and they are just never discussed? Or are there more white transgender people?

Is transgenderism more of a lower or upper and mid class occurrence?

Does anybody have any research into how class and race/ethnicity shape and/or influence transgenderism and support of identity-politics?

I feel as though there is some correlation with transgenderism, and Western individualistic culture and white middle class families. But it can also just be that in transgenderism with POC just never gets talked about.

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[–]LilianH 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Well if we believe the National Transgender Discrimination Survey answers to those questions are as follows;

Race

  • 83% White
  • 6% Latina
  • 6% Black
  • 6% American Indian
  • 3% Asian
  • 1% Arab

(multiple responses were allowed and I think a lot of white guys called themselves Two-Spirit)

Income

  • 12% Under 10K
  • 10% 10-20K
  • 32% 20-50K
  • 41% 50K+

(20% also gave their job as student and 11% as unemployed so that would explain the high under 20K amount).

[–]transisfake 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ho-ly shit... these stats alone discredit the entire theory of gender identity

[–]JustaTurtleFucker 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (3子コメント)

...and I think a lot of white guys called themselves two spirit.

You are correct. In person and online I've met these white boys who identify just so much with us they think they can pull a one-drop Cherokee (I know nothing about the culture and it's meant nothing to me my whole life but I just discovered it and I feeeeel so close to it now because I found this thing that seems to cater to my interests so I must belong! Thanks 23andme for letting me know the tip of my pinky nail is First Nations!)

Below, annieareyouokay brought up ladyboys in Thailand and the Iranian surgeries as a query to whether white trans are the worldwide majority. I'll just go ahead and address that here rather than make two AI-related replies, since I started ranting about my personal experience with "two spirit" stuff in our main tribe.

Unless it's changed in recent years due to spread of the trans social contagion, ladyboys are not and do not consider themselves to be women. I think here specifically we're talking about the trans males who think hormonal and surgical facades transform them into women (hence highjacking "female" and female-specific terms, threatening into silence any reminder they're not and can never become women - such as biology/discussions around it, etc.), not members of a society that count themselves as a kind of third gender. Gender being different from sex in this societal context and meaning more like sex plus opposite sex roles when used conversationally. I used to chill with about a dozen ladyboys, still friends on social media, and they were all very much aware (and proud of their) male genitalia. They knew their femininity act was exactly that: a performance not aligned with their sex. Hence designating themselves "third gendered."

Just wanted to clarify because Western trans just love laying claim to any other cultural anomaly as their own when in fact they are not. One of the main tribes from which I'm descended had third gendered or "two spirit" as white people love to say, members occasionally born into it. According to my great-grandmother (around almost all my childhood, lived her whole life sans a decade-ish on the rez) and my grandma (grew up on the rez, first in her family line to permanently escape the rez), these tribal members were basically men too effeminate to be considered effective hunters. So instead of leading, or hunting, or going to war where they'd surely fucking faint, they'd sit with the elderly women weaving baskets, beading, making moccasins, gathering food... Stuff that wouldn't hurt their delicate sensibilities or whatever. This was something they saw happen, not some romanticized myth of a thing from centuries ago. Sometimes the third gendered were gay, sometimes they weren't, but what made them third gendered was their fragility levels and commitment to social roles where they were out of place but still contributing...

This is shit I've known and heard about since before the internet was a thing. But I've lost track of the number of times I've seen some white guy (sometimes women but IMPE has been more middle class young white dudes who post their pics like "Tell me I pass'" when they clearly don't kinda guys?) show off his ignorance by A) assuming all American Indian tribes share the same cultures and cultural views, B) assuming a vastly higher prevalence of "two spirits" than there've ever been, both in number of tribes who actually had them and the even smaller number of actual third gendered members of those relatively few tribes which ALL had gendered role ideas, C) condescending to others about something in which he has exactly zero personal experience or knowledge. Every time some poor fool ignorantly announces some variation of "but native americans looooooved and reveeeered their twoooo spirits which are totally not the same thing as traaaaans!" I have a good chuckle.

Two spirits were still well aware of what fucking sex they were, but leave it to privileged men to decide us injuns were just too stupid to know how the fuck babies get made. I mean sure we knew like 99.9% of the time but then an effeminate man would come along and just throw everything about primary sexual functions into the wind, is I guess what they think?

Sorry I ranted there. But yeah, unless the trans social contagion's taken over south east Asia, ladyboys are still well aware they're men performing femininity, which only makes them trans in the western "find anyone GNC - congrats, you're now trans, Joan of Arc, because only a dude could lead an army at 15" fashion. Rewriting history. Like they've done with "two spirit" which for almost every tribe permitting/recording it was just GNC behavior only sometimes coupled with sexual orientation. If ladyboys have started considering themselves transitioned to being real women instead of third gender or "she male", that's relatively new and news to me.

Imma go ask the ladyboys on my FB. Pretty sure they'll say they're not trans, though.

Edit: Wish I'd been recording his face when I asked, "But do you think of your penis and balls as female genitals or male genitals?" One of the funniest "How stupid can a question get" faces I've ever seen. Anyway, at least my group of ladyboys in Thailand still definitely acknowledge their male genitalia is male genitalia.

Tl,Dr: Coming from a tribe with "two spirits" and knowing our actual tribal definitions/examples before the advent of the world wide web, every time I hear some disinformation-spreading white guy claim he's "two spirit" all I hear is, "But spearing game sounds haaaard. I wanna make a shawl with grandma after I do her laundry instead." Inner smirk.

[–]itazurakko 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

JustaTurtleFucker writes:

Imma go ask the ladyboys on my FB. Pretty sure they'll say they're not trans, though.

This was my impression also, from reading various accounts and seeing some documentary interviews with people in Thailand. Those people were claiming a third category, not insisting they're actually women, even when using the equivalents of "she" and whatever. If you asked them straight up "are you a woman?" the response seemed to be "lolwut? No"

I followed some people on the internet from the Philippines who talked similarly of bakla, as a third category. Additionally, for them sexual attraction to males ("regular" males) was part of the definition of the category, so they would complain about the usual American trans idea of "gender identity and sexual orientation are completely unrelated" not taking their situation into account, and feeling appropriated.

[–]Sparrow8907 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gay man whose done a lot of study on shamanism chiming in here, and I wanna say from everything I've read in my studies, you're 100% right, but I thought I'd add in a bit more.

From "The Death and Resurrection Show" (a book which attempts to trace to roots of showbiz to shamanistic practices), while speaking of spirit-marriages the shaman would have with their spirit-helper / guide

If the companion chosen for him is not of the opposite sex, then the shaman may have to change his own sex as a consequence. These are known as sex-change or transformed shamans and they are considered to be exceptionally powerful magicians.... Sex change shamans were more frequently men-turned women. They were known amongs the Chukchee [a Siberian people] as "soft-man-beings" or "similar-to-a-woman." The extent of the sexual transformation could vary a great deal. Some merely braided their hair as women do, others wore women's clothes and abandoned all male activities, practicing only female skills. At the extreme, they may feel completely as a woman and take male lovers, though it is reported that some young men would commit suicide rather than obey the letter of the spirit's demand. (emphasis mine, pg. 29-30)

Honestly, the whole sex-change, 2-spirit, homosexual thing always comes up with shamanism, and I think it's a bit overblown, but I also think there's something more worth digging into. Thing is, while it's always brought up, it's rarely covered in any type of depth.

Just thought I'd contribute.

[–]thelandisoursVulverine 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"find anyone GNC - congrats, you're now trans, Joan of Arc, because only a dude could lead an army at 15"

I loved your comment, but this is so depressing. Because you're 100 % right.

[–]songofthewormsassigned literal violence at birth 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Whoa. There's no way these numbers are right, the internet says the overwhelming majority of trans people are destitute and perennially unable to find any kind of gainful employment! It can't possibly be true that nearly half of trans people are paid more than your average full-time worker in the U.S., or that they are even more white than the U.S. population at large.

Hmmm... A terf must have cast a spell on these survey results.

[–]Fallenstarrynight 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think I can shed some light on why there are so few Black trans people.

Basically, the Black gay community (surprisingly) was always more gender experimental due to the rest of the Black community being so conservative.

It started out that gender non-conforming gay people were more accepted. They fit into the 'they're gay because they wish they were the opposite sex' trope many straight people originally assumed.

So in our communities, gender non-conforming started way, way before trans became popular. It's still accepted today, as a very large portion of our gay communities are super butch lesbians and super femme gay men.

Most, almost all, Black households where you have a gnc child, the parents will just assume their child is going to be gay.

[–]silentalarmsss 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, most masculine black women just call themselves studs and feminine black gay men just see themselves as feminine men. There isn't this push to transition

[–]RipleyRiot 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And white liberal feminists and trans activists just Love to take historical figures like Marsha P Johnson who was a feminine gay black man who also happened to be a drag queen and say they were actually trans (when there wasn't even such a thing) and use them to support their crazy cult when really they're just erasing poc's contributions to the LGB community

[–]newgcf 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Huh, that's interesting. I wouldn't have thought that trope could be a positive thing.

[–]newgcf 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Black people are immune to criticism

Not black, but I'm skeptical about this. I think there's a lot of reasons why this is a white thing.

Are there just as many transgender POC, or more, and they are just never discussed? Or are there more white transgender people?

There are more white transgender people(if largely because there are more white people in countries where it's popular), but especially, there are more privileged white transgender people. From news reports/anecdotes I've seen, most of the non-white transgender people tend to be less wealthy, less visible, and less aggressive. They're far more likely to be involved in prostitution, and/or involved in drugs, and/or homeless, so not the go-to 'nice folk' the media likes to talk about.

some correlation with transgenderism, and Western individualistic culture and white middle class families.

There was an observation on gendertrender not long ago from trans-doctor-crazy-lady Olson Kennedy that all but three of her patients were white, and of middle-class backgrounds. The only three black children had been adopted by white families. So... yeah. It's definitely a white thing(much to Kennedy's sadness that she can't sterilize a more diverse group of kids).

IMO, part of it is a twisted form of white guilt and the hyper-awareness of social justice issues that middle class white people often feel they need to be engaged in. Partly it's the constant shaming about "white feminism" and "white privilege"(often from other white people). Partly it's that they have the time, money, and are bored enough to sit around thinking about gender ideology and/or their kid's gender. And partly a few of the actual transgender/transtrender people are simply privileged white men who were tired of being reminded of that fact. Stick it to the feminists, AND get a huge crowd of loyal suck-ups? I don't even think it's necessarily deliberate, but they want to believe that they are this person that everyone adores, rather than some boring white guy.

But it can also just be that in transgenderism with POC just never gets talked about.

Not that this isn't also true.

[–]vulvapeopleI am Terficus 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

White adoptive parents basically castrating their black (I'm assuming, male) kids really skeevs me out. But another reason black parents aren't falling for this is likely a very healthy skepticism of medical experiments and sterilization, both of which black Americans have suffered from throughout U.S. history.

[–]endofthelinerXX-Marks-My-Sex=Female 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seems that "POC" only get talked about in passing, since they also appear to be most of MtTs who are murdered by other men and probably those who haven't undergone the expensive treatments--mostly while working as prostitutes, or by boyfriends/acquaintances or in disputes w/other MtTs.

[–]annieareyouokayannieI am feel erased when we are not about me? 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

There are more white transgender people(if largely because there are more white people in countries where it's popular)

Does anyone have stats on this? Thailand, Iran and Brazil are all very populous countries with high rates of transgenderism (Thailand and Iran perform more SRS than any other countries). I wouldn't be surprised if over all most transgender people weren't white, though ofc all the attention and concern goes to those in western countries who mostly are.

[–]RipleyRiot 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hi, Brazilian here I have no hard data to back this up (tho I will look it up) but I suspect this is a very popular practice in Brazil (and probably similar reasons for Iran) for a few reasons - Brazil is one of the top countries in the World in plastic surgery so presssure to conform to gender expectations are very high, so there's a bigger urgency to "pass" for trans people I believe - I noticed that here people are incredibly homophobic, but will support transition in afeminate gay men and butch women, which makes me think it related because they rather see an apparent heterosexual couple where one of the people "was born in the wrong body" then a homosexual couple. - white People are more in touch with gringo libfem activism which is right now very focused on transgenderism - white people also have the most money to pay for doctors, hormone replacement therapy, plastic surgeries, documentation change and other thins required to actually transition - most poc in Brazil don't have that kind of money and like it was said already are more likely to be in vulnerable situations like prostitution That's what I think happens... in Iran there's also a wider acceptance of trans people than gay people...

[–]Bluetinfoilhat 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most black trans seem to be gay whereas a growing number of white trans are straight (although the majority might still be gay). I think that people just wont entertain a straight black man getting away with the level of perversion and harassment of women.

Also I think income is a factor. Working class straight men of any race don't have the social capital to just do the whole transition at 40.