全 165 件のコメント

[–]friskydongo 92 ポイント93 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Indiana Jones says: "Yes"

[–]tofu_popsiclethank u Bayes'd god 45 ポイント46 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Tarantino says "No, it doesn't go far enough"

[–]Haan_Solo 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Now, I don't know about y'all, but I sure as hell didn't come down from the goddamn Smoky Mountains, cross five thousand miles of water, fight my way through half of Sicily and jump out of a fuckin' air-o-plane to teach the Nat-zees lessons in humanity. Nat-zee ain't got no humanity. They're the foot soldiers of a Jew-hatin', mass murderin' maniac and they need to be dee-stroyed. That's why any and every son of a bitch we find wearin' a Nat-zee uniform, they're gonna die.

edit* added more Tennessee

[–]Y3808 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Misspelled "nat-zees"

[–]Haan_Solo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I did nat-zee that mistake, fixed.

[–]BuiltTheSkyForMyDawnStirner did nothing wrong 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Really? Only leading ethicist I've consulted is this one

[–]Haan_Solo 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love the little rebel alliance website logo, nice touch.

[–]Seaman_First_ClassLiterally a computer 57 ポイント58 ポイント  (18子コメント)

The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to punch people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live.

[–]SlectionSocialSanity 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You forgot add the disclaimer: "This statement only applies to Brown, Black, or Muslims. A1 Tier Credit only. Take delivery date by 01/31/17."

[–]YliukkoRedditing is myth; myth is redditing. 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually his/her mistake was taking the comment out of it's context.

[–]luvManuelsCum [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

Holy fuck you utter bunch of totally hypocritical pathetic losers... You guys have spent your whole existence quoting the quote by Sam Harris as a prime example of "bad philosophy", relentlessly attacking him as a terrible human being

...yet here you are without any irony using that quote to literally justify pre emptive violence

[–]Brainlaag [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

I do believe Popper came before Harris, as such the reasoning above can be attributed far more to him and his stance on the concept he defined as "paradox of tolerance", rather than anything made by Sam "what the fuck is historiography" Harris.

[–]luvManuelsCum [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

What the fuck has popper got to do with anything. You guys incessantly rag on Ben "nuclear first strike" Stiller with that quote about "there are some propositions so dangerous..."

And without any self awareness whatsoever, you use the same logic to justify pre emptive strikes on people you disagree with.....

...and don't tell me all the upvotes are "ironic" and indicative of the satirical nature of the comment. I mean, this thread is full of literal, non ironic arguments for pre emptive violence

[–]mrsamsa [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

...and don't tell me all the upvotes are "ironic" and indicative of the satirical nature of the comment. I mean, this thread is full of literal, non ironic arguments for pre emptive violence

If it helps, I upvoted it because it was funny.

As for the argument that supporting punching Nazis is equivalent to the murder of millions of innocent people, I'm not quite sure that's a fair comparison to make.

I feel like somebody could consistently argue that Harris is wrong for wishing for the deaths of millions of innocent people because they believed in a religion that he thought could theoretically be used by bad people to justify violence (based on an incredibly poor understanding of Islam), while arguing that it might be okay to clock a person in the face who's whole belief system is based on the idea that genocide is neat.

[–]luvManuelsCum [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Oh ok so you didn't upvote it because it's true or anything? I think it's funny too, doesn't mean I mindlessly upvote something that the majority of users almost certainly don't just see the funny side of. I mean, just read the rest of the thread and consider the upvotes for totally serious comments advocating pre emptive violence if you doubt that most people probably upvoted because they literally agree with the argument, funny or not.

And while you're at it, tell me if you think the people ok with punching Spencer because nazi would be against a nuclear first strike against a nation of Spencers....

[–]mrsamsa [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Oh ok so you didn't upvote it because it's true or anything?

I didn't really analyse it in enough detail to make a judgement about whether it's true or not. It was a joke about Harris, not a formal argument, so the truth of the claim wasn't a primary concern when determining the direction of my vote.

I think it's funny too, doesn't mean I mindlessly upvote something that the majority of users almost certainly don't just see the funny side of.

I don't understand what you mean. Who's "mindlessly" upvoting something? I was very mindful of it, it was funny so it deserved an upvote.

I'm not sure what you mean by the idea that the majority of users don't see the funny side of. It got lots of upvotes, so I imagine many found it funny.

I mean, just read the rest of the thread and consider the upvotes for totally serious comments advocating pre emptive violence if you doubt that most people probably upvoted because they literally agree with the argument, funny or not.

That doesn't really make any sense. It's possible to find it funny, and to also more or less agree with the general point that it's okay to punch Nazis.

Like I said, I upvoted it because it was funny. I also think it's probably okay to punch Nazis. I didn't upvote it because I thought it was a serious or rigorous argument defending my belief that it might be okay to punch Nazis.

And while you're at it, tell me if you think the people ok with punching Spencer because nazi would be against a nuclear first strike against a nation of Spencers....

Some might, some might not. The only thing we can know for sure is that it's not a comparable situation to Harris' argument - because remember his argument is about innocent people who might be in the vicinity of people who perhaps could do bad things. With the Nazi example, they literally and explicitly want to do bad things.

I imagine if you changed the situation to something like: Some German people might become Nazis and those Nazi beliefs could be dangerous to us in the US, and if they become dangerous enough then it might justify killing millions of innocent German people in order to kill those Nazis.

When framed like that (as Harris puts it), I would imagine that most people in favour of punching Nazis would be against genocide. If it's literally only a population full of Nazis, and there was an imminent threat of them killing people based on their beliefs, then it seems difficult to justify not doing it if all else has failed. I don't think anyone really disagrees with Harris' quote on the basis that they don't agree with self-defence.

[–]luvManuelsCum [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

You think it's probably okay to punch nazis, great but that doesn't tell us an awful lot without context. Would you be okay with punching a nazi who is trying to attack a random Jew? Of course, so would I. Punching a nazi just going about his her daily life? Mmm, not so much. Punching a nazi who happens to be a dentist operating on me or a taxi driver driving me? Defo not - imo.

Pls don't give me any nazi sympathiser bullshit.

[–]mrsamsa [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

You think it's probably okay to punch nazis, great but that doesn't tell us an awful lot without context.

It doesn't need to tell us anything, it was a statement not an argument. I only pointed it out to show how my voting pattern was inconsistent with what you thought.

Would you be okay with punching a nazi who is trying to attack a random Jew? Of course, so would I. Punching a nazi just going about his her daily life? Mmm, not so much.

Well yeah but the context of the thread is about punching a Nazi in the way Spencer was punched. And the claim is that I'm probably okay with it.

I don't think it should be legal, I understand the practical difficulties with a policy of saying "go punch Nazis everyone!", etc etc, but after-the-fact, seeing Spencer get punched, I can't really fault it. Plus the videos are hilarious, which seems like a moral good in itself.

Punching a nazi who happens to be a dentist operating on me or a taxi driver driving me? Defo not - imo.

Presumably if you felt strongly enough to punch Nazis then you wouldn't let one operate on you or be responsible for your life in a car - particularly if you're in a group that they want to kill. If you are in that group, and you only realise they're a Nazi halfway through, then practically it's probably not the best idea in case they slip or drive off the road, but I can't see anything particularly morally wrong with it.

Pls don't give me any nazi sympathiser bullshit.

As long as you don't sympathise with Nazis then there shouldn't be a problem.

[–]luvManuelsCum [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As long as you don't sympathise with Nazis then there shouldn't be a problem.

...if only that were the case with most everyone else here. It doesn't take much to be accused of such, for simply saying it wasn't ok to punch RS the way he was punched.

it's funny, your argument against legalisation, while simultaneously being probably morally okay with it kinda reminds me of a certain someone's arguments about torture.

[–]Brainlaag [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Because we are talking about the legitimacy of violence in regards to certain stances?

You fail to see the nuance in the arguments presented. From what I recall, Harris wasn't giving any sort of sound reasoning on what basis some view points have to be opposed, only using abstract concepts of what he considered toxic, outdated, regressive, etc. generalising any innocent that might get caught up in the destruction of those evils as a necessary sacrifice. He worked off a purely subjective interpretation for when violence can and cannot be used, whereas Popper tried to give a framework that can be used by even diagonally opposed ideologies.

To clarify, in the "paradox of tolerance" the defining characteristic for opposing a proposition is a lack of sound reasoning behind it, relying on conjecture, or even worse, baseless opinion to make a point. Such a stance cannot be argued with because it doesn't rely on a rational structure to make a point, pandering to truth-apt beliefs instead.

An example since we are talking about Richard Spencer specifically getting decked, he wrote an article where he argued the validity and usefulness of genocide towards mostly Sub-Saharan Africa to "improve the life of all others, while merely sacrificing groups of people who haven't contributed anything to human civilisation at large". The proverbial broken eggs for an omelette.

This is not a rational basis, because it is ahistorical, thus can be objectively/empirically proven wrong (African peoples did contribute to human civilisation) and ignores just about all other conclusions made in some 2500 years of ethics trying to give justification and meaning to certain actions not based on purely superficial attributes like one's place of origin, skin colour and so forth, anchored in some inductive and deductive principles instead.

Therefore Popper would argue that violence is legitimised, because if such a belief-system were to triumph, it would wash away all others and the very tolerance which enabled it to flourish would vanish. The same cannot be said for Harris's stance, clear enough?

Oh, for the record, I would have done more than just merely alt-highfiving Spencer.

[–]luvManuelsCum [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

That is all a steaming pile of straight up irrelevant pseudo intellectual wankery

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of this sub and it's members, I don't really give a fuck what the actual specific content of the pre emptive strike argument is...

Popper is irrelevant because he has nothing to do with why this sub hates SH in the first place. the content of the infamous quote we're discussing is irrelevant, what's relevant is the way you people make use of it. It's used as a stick to beat Stiller with, while the very same stick is used to jerk each other off. That's all I'm observing.

Also, lol @ the fact that you can barely recall the argument Harris makes that you're nevertheless so dismissive of, it's almost like an anti-cult hivemind mentality, you guys really love the smell of your own farts doncha

[–]Brainlaag [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

That is all a steaming pile of straight up irrelevant pseudo intellectual wankery

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of this sub and it's members, I don't really give a fuck what the actual specific content of the pre emptive strike argument is...

Popper is irrelevant because he has nothing to do with why this sub hates SH in the first place. the content of the infamous quote we're discussing is irrelevant, what's relevant is the way you people make use of it. It's used as a stick to beat Stiller with, while the very same stick is used to jerk each other off. That's all I'm observing.

Your lack of reading and comprehension is only overshadowed by your inability to link different topics that share similarities. Harris is being ridiculed because he fails to give a coherent set of ideas that don't contradict each other on every second turn, while also having near nil grasp of epistemological reasoning, let alone anything in regards to ontology. His nuke-topic was just the cherry on a long-list of embarrassing things that have poured out of that convulsed and sinister mind.

Also, lol @ the fact that you can barely recall the argument Harris makes that you're nevertheless so dismissive of, it's almost like an anti-cult hivemind mentality, you guys really love the smell of your own farts doncha

I do in fact do my best to erase my memory every time I read Harris, for that I employ a drug-cocktail of my own making, don't want that filth spooking in my head for too long after all and yes, my armchair has a distinct aroma of wet farts I cultivated over years of hard mental masturbation.

That alone gives me already more qualification and integrity than Harris will ever have.

[–]luvManuelsCum [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

That alone gives me already more qualification and integrity than Harris will ever have.

The really sad part of this is you're not even trying to be funny. Like, you actually think that is true.

Lyk, im crying rn

:-(

[–]Brainlaag [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Fantastic, any negative emotions I can induce in people conflating nuking entire populations with punching a guy in the face is a success in my book.

[–]luvManuelsCum [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The saddest part is we both know you weren't even trying to make me sad.

But hey, a retrospectively defined victory is a victory, I guess!

[–]Thurgood_MarshallCrypto-philistine 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ethical or not, I laugh just as hard every time I see it.

[–]mrsamsa [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Is it ethical to laugh at a Nazi getting punched in the face? We need some ethicists to weigh in.

[–]RIPErikPetersen 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Categorical Imperative says yes

[–]TiakoTHE ULTIMATE PHILOSOPHER LOL!!!!! 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (2子コメント)

"The truest gauge of wisdom is whether or not one follows Reddit commiesphere circlejerks"

--Socrates or something

[–]ContraPositiveDon't be a Kant 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

ayyy lmao

-Plato

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[–]Y3808 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]TiakoTHE ULTIMATE PHILOSOPHER LOL!!!!! 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a pretty strong argument in its favor.

[–]mrpopenfresh 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Advocating hate and violence is cool. Acting on it? "No"

[–]Ronald-DumsfeldWhenever I hear of the Sokal Hoax I reach for my revolver 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Isn't this a core tenant of Catholicism? You can be gay and a good Catholic so long as you don't act on it.

[–]mrpopenfresh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

...what about Catholics?

[–]Newstade [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah as long as you don't engage in the sin your golden. Feel tempted to it all you like but don't

[–]Newstade [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I agree, we need to legitimize violence against political groups we disagree with. If we can all agree to punch Nazis we can all agree to throw communists from Helicopters.

Furthermore this helps continue to dissolve relations between wings in this country which I view as a good thing. Actual Nazis and Actual commies don't really matter when you can advocate the nebulous idea that the other will use violence against you, it's a great positive and further breaks the machine.

[–]pcor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Is it OK to punch an ethicist?

[–]Tyler_Collins -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I get the feeling that there is an irony in using violence to suppress an ideology who's list of factors includes the use or threat of violence to suppress ideologies it disagrees with.

Reminds me of this

[–]PrinceLyovMyshkin 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Perhaps, but only if you are going to go down that route you are a nazi anyway. You have to remember that our liberal government does this all of the time. So much so that they have manufactured a systemic violence against certain people which is reinforced by the day-to-day actions of individuals like yourself.

The fellow who punched that nazi was a member of a Black Bloc. That means he is almost certainly a socialist. Despite being one of the major political ideologies this century, the vast majority of Americans couldn't tell you what a socialist like him actually wants. This is in no small part due to the US' long history of abuse towards socialists, from COINTELPRO to the Red Scare. As such the socialist cannot effectively communicate his ideals.

His ideology is suppressed by violence.

[–]Tyler_Collins 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I should have specified physical violence in the case of fascism. As we know, government suppresses views through institutionalised violence every day, to assert its own, well-seated authority.