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[–]TotesMessenger 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (6子コメント)

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[–]SpeakerToRedditors 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Fucking Anarcho's I really hate teenagers.

[–]JakeC1597 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Isn't fucking AnCap against regulation? What's with that post title?

[–]Muffinator4friedmanite 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's talking about the comments

[–]pittsnoggle 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Something, something, negative externalities.

[–]ballthyrm 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Something, something, tragedy of the commons

[–]zphobic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The tragedy of the commons has been shown to be resolvable if people get together and cooperate on the issue.

[–]jackguey2 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Everything has been shown to be resolvable if people get together and cooperate on the issues.

[–]uncivlengr 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

We just resolved war, poverty, crime, racism, you name it.... "Just get together and cooperate."

[–]TheRealHouseLives 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

One form of getting together and cooperating on the issue is known as "government"

[–]Green_Doreato 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Negative externalities dont exist ? (Trying to have a different POV than only my teacher's)

[–]pittsnoggle 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you asking that or saying it? Negative externalizes definitely exist - i.e. coal plants in the US make the air worse in China, and vice versa.

[–]costabius 62 ポイント63 ポイント  (51子コメント)

..like when the market fixed leaded gasoline

[–]Economist_hat 40 ポイント41 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Or the ozone hole. Or SOx emissions leading to acid rain. Or lead paint. Or child labor. Or airplane reliability. etc

[–]glowplugmech 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

leaded gasoline

Did you know that the law says fuels that are not approved by the EPA are illegal to use in your vehicle? A State regulation caused the leaded gasoline problem. If we had a market for fuels we could have used pure alcohol fuels which contain no lead.

[–]costabius 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The economics of alcohol fuels are terrible. Without regulation and subsidies for ethanol, there would be no alcohol fuel market.

[–]IArentDavidGary "bake the fucking cake, jew" Johnson - /u/LeeGod[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (37子コメント)

If leaded gasoline was no longer banned by the government, would everyone go back to producing leaded gasoline?

[–]Economist_hat 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lock in/ technological advancement etc. These form major barriers to reversion.

[–]enmunate28 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's cheaper to make engines to use it and caused your engine to not knock. So... maybe?

[–]trevorcorylahey 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I bet they would in the 3rd world for sure

[–]enmunate28 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well... that's a given for sure.

[–]zgott300Filthy Statist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If it's cheaper some probably would. At the time is the switch, it was cheaper.

[–]OldManPhill 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (30子コメント)

Dont you see, if we didnt have regulation there would be chaos! Children would be working in coal mines, lead would be used in paint, meat would be filled with cyanide!/s

[–]bhknb 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Parents hate their children and without the state would enslave them to the nearest mine owner. Praise Government for protecting you!

[–]ChocolateSunrise 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

There is child labor happening is many countries right now. Parents don't hate their children, they just see them as a resource and are willing to sacrifice their childhood and education for money today.

[–]TheQuestion78Bleeding Heart Libertarian, friedmanite 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

And most child labor laws in the developing world cause those kids to work at more dangerous and then illegal jobs since the family still needs the source of income...

[–]ChocolateSunrise 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The social safety net, which I assume you oppose, prevents that from happening in most cases. In extreme cases that somehow don't abide by social norms, I would hope you would notify law enforcement and social services.

[–]L_Iwakura 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's talking about poor countries

[–]bhknb 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What evidence do you have that parents are less benevolent toward and caring for their children than are politicians and bureaucrats? Would you sacrfice your son or daughter's childhood and education just to get some money today if government didn't prevent it? I doubt it, so I wonder what makes you so superior to all those other people.

[–]ChocolateSunrise 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am not enduring deep poverty and hardship. Hard to know what I would do if things were not the way they are.

[–]well-placed_pun 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because child labor never happened.

[–]bhknb 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you think it was the desire of parents to have their children work in lieu of all other possibilities, and the only way those children were saved was by government intervention?

[–]glowplugmech 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Parents hate their children

It's legal for children to work for family business's in the USA today.

EDIT: I just realized your post could have been sarcasm in which case I just want everyone to know that western countries still have legal child labor.

[–]bhknb 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, but can I send my children to mine owners to work 16 hour shifts so that I can buy that Corvette I've had my eye on?

[–]Thermodynamicness 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No. But you could back when child labor was less regulated.

[–]benfitzg 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (13子コメント)

We have children working in manual labour right now in many countries where the goods are bought in Western countries. How would the market fix this?

[–]glowplugmech 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We have children working in manual labour right now

Most children worked in the USA in the 18th and 19th century. Their work was needed for families to survive here.

You are assuming that all countries are in the same stage in their development as other countries. If child labor is needed for survival in certain regions of China in 2017 how is that any different than the USA in 1840? More than likely by the year 2040 China will have surpassed us economically in all areas and as a result the amount of child workers will be much lower.

Also it's completely legal for children to work for family business's and the government in the USA today.

[–]poco 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

By continuing to improve the economy of these countries so that children don't have to work anymore. The same way the west got to the point where children don't need to work.

[–]hartofeugene 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

This is 100 percent how the world DOES NOT work. Welcome to reality my friend.

[–]poco 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

That is exactly how the world works (with respect to this specific case). Developing countries start with shitty working situations and get better as they develop. It isn't like people want their kids to work in shitty conditions (unless you think parents are assholes) and regulations are the only thing preventing it.

Parents in developing countries need their kids to work to help pay for things so they can survive. Why do you hate poor people?

[–]hartofeugene 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do you know the mechanism behind which working conditions get better? Voting. Unionization. If you want to argue that the regulation is built in by the workers, that's fine. The government is really just an amalgamation of human citizens imposing rules on themselves.

[–]dbeyr 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So the fact that children no longer work in the west had nothing to do with child labor laws?

[–]poco 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It is impossible to answer that question with any real certainty because it is a situation that doesn't exist.

I will only answer with another question. If child labor laws were removed in the USA how many kids would be working in factories?

[–]Thermodynamicness 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If child labor laws were removed in the USA how many kids would be working in factories?

Roughly 21% of them. Because that is the number of kids that are in dire poverty and would be willing to work in terrible conditions in a desperate attempt to put food on the table.

[–]verveinloveland 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ding ding ding...someone who understands economics, although that was kind of a soft ball. Sad that people don't know this stuff

[–]molotok_c_518 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

By educating consumers on the working conditions in said factories and asking them to refrain from buying from those companies. Lack of profit would force them to change policies until people bought the product again.

This isn't the steam age, when it took forever for information to disseminate. We have a whole Internet to do that instantly these days. There's no excuse for supporting unethical companies with our business.

[–]continous 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Actually, leaded gasoline was shown to have had an impact on crime, notably increasing it, and with today's increase in traffic, it'd likely result in an even heavier impact, resulting in relative chaos.

[–]verveinloveland 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

that's a hypothesis as they seemed to correlate, I've never seen anything resembling proof or anything 'showing' causality...do you have something?

[–]continous 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well scientific consensus for one. It's a fairly well known fact, shit there's an entire segment dedicated to it on Cosmos.

[–]verveinloveland 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

naw, I highly doubt there is a scientific consensus on this one. It is one hypothesis among many for the data. Don't believe everything you see on tv as a fact, many times they present interesting hypotheses and present them as facts.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lead-crime_hypothesis

[–]costabius 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well lets see, it was a fuel additive of ~80 years. For 60 of those years the industry knew it was toxic. They fought tooth and nail against a ban because it is cheaper to produce than the alternatives. I think without regulation, people would fill their tanks with the cheapest fuel availible considering they can't see the consequences for themselves.

[–]General_Landry 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sorry people didn't want their children to be poisoned by lead...

Numerous studies showed it's negative effect and ethanol could have been used in the same way to boost octane.

[–]glowplugmech 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ethanol could have been used in the same way to boost octane.

It could have. But fuel additives have to be approved by the EPA and all additives are illegal until approved.

[–]lyonbraPragmatic Libertarian 58 ポイント59 ポイント  (151子コメント)

Do you believe in any regulations (environmental, basic safety, disclosure, etc)?

[–]poco 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (14子コメント)

In my opinion, the "good" regulations are ones that represent property rights and winnable civil cases.

That is, if you can accept that, with enough evidence, I could win a civil case against you dumping sewage into my yard, then it is reasonable for the state to shortcut that and have a regulation preventing the dumping of said amount of sewage in any yard and thereby saving the me the headache of suing everyone that wrongs me.

Even murder and theft are covered by this rule and it tends to cover most environmental regulations. This goes for class action suits too and ones that might be hard to prove (air pollution for example).

Any regulation that would lose if brought to civil court between two individuals is a bad regulation. Can I win a suit against a prostitute for selling sex to someone else? Probably not. Can I win a suit against a drug dealer for selling drugs to someone that isn't me? Probably not.

Regulations should be designed to allow the state to represent me in the case of harm to me or my property. This allows me to be less concerned with suing everyone and more concerned with living my life. Anything beyond that is overreach.

[–]lyonbraPragmatic Libertarian 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have never heard of this argument in this way. It actually makes a lot of sense. Huh.

[–]lendo93 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is an interesting way of judging decisions, but take out the "to someone that is not me." Unless there is something about civil suits that I do not know, if I have no relation to the victim I cannot sue on behalf of them. Including things like murder.

My methodology is "maximize net freedom" given the non-aggression principle. So consumption-based regulations on non-localized forms of pollution, such as a carbon tax, would benefit most people's freedoms since it is impractical for nation(/world)-wide class action lawsuits against every factory/everyone who drives a hydrocarbon-burning car. Taking it further, the tax should be priced/used to 'undo the damage' it is taxing.

[–]wise_man_wise_guy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I could win a suit against a prostitute that gave me an STD. Similarly I could win a suit against a drug dealer that sold me drugs not consistent with his representations of the product. In that sense you could argue both the legality and regulation of both activities.

[–]lyonbraPragmatic Libertarian 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I could agree to that, if someone bought some weed, only to discover later it was laced with something they would have a right to sue. So, regulating the (purity/truth is advertising) of a product would be OK

[–]worldsayshi 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really like this way of seeing it. It might not hold in practice but what ideal does anyway?

Is there a way to use this kind of thinking to counter monopolies though?

Edit: I'm mainly referring to monopolies on finite resources like land and natural resources.

[–]beeeeeeefcake 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Is it not reasonable to conclude that the regulations add loopholes and it would be better if none existed in many cases? You'd just have to prove damages and violations of basic laws or contracts rather than whether the defendant complied or not with some obscure clause in some subsection with accompanying regulation the whole cases hinges on.

[–]bazoos 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well, let's take dumping toxic sewage for example. Is it better for them to dump the sewage and then get sued for it, or for them to not be allowed to dump it in the first place. Lawsuits are reactionary, regulations are proactive. Some company could dump sewage into the water you use to water your farm. You could sue them, but that doesn't change the fact that your farm is no longer getting watered.

[–]beeeeeeefcake 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Ok suppose the regulations exist how does that further motivate people to not harm you? Because they're afraid of regulators with checklists and the 500 pages of complex loophole-ridden regulations? Unless it's something where the police are going to come out and immediately arrest someone and put them in jail, I don't see anyone caring more about regulations than being sued. And the added complexity of regulations seems to favor those with the money to game them.

[–]bazoos 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't disagree with you there. A lot of regulations are obsolete, and designed by larger companies and their lobbying firms to limit the upward mobility of competing entities. If a regulation is necessary, company executives should be held criminally accountable for negligence or malevolence in damages caused. That, and costs should scale with the magnitude of damages a company could cause given improper safety precautions.

But, because some regulations are bad, does not mean they are all useless, costly, and unnecessary. The ones that are worthless should be eliminated, and the ones that protect against severe ecological and economic crisis should be more strongly enforced.

[–]Locke92 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ok suppose the regulations exist how does that further motivate people to not harm you?

By adding an additional economic disincentive to the activity you're trying to regulate? Regulations don't take the place of civil law suits they try to prevent them by creating additional penalties on top of just civil liability. I'm not trying to say that everything needs to be regulated or that there are no bad regulations, but it's worth looking at them honestly and not as caricatures.

[–]FourDM 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This. For noncriminal offenses there's really not much difference between the threat of a fine or the threat of a slam-dunk lawsuit being filed against you.

[–]poco 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course, that is my point. All of those regulation that don't meet my requirements as "good" regulations should be removed.

I'm proposing a way to rate regulations using some simple rules (the nerd in me always wants to break things down into simple rules) that allow the libertarian worldview and the regulatory worldview to inter-operate.

[–]IArentDavidGary "bake the fucking cake, jew" Johnson - /u/LeeGod[S] 55 ポイント56 ポイント  (133子コメント)

Absolutely. The market is amazing at regulating behaviors that people don't like.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 130 ポイント131 ポイント  (87子コメント)

The market is amazing at regulating behaviors that people don't like.

Depends on the behaviors. For instance, the market is terrible at regulating product safety and environmental safety. There is a long track record of these issues going unaddressed by the market for decades until a regulation steps in.

Also, not all markets are self optimizing for competition. Particularly those where there is a finite or prohibitively expensive distribution channel (water, gas, cable, roads).

[–]zangerinusFriedman / Nozick 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (24子コメント)

Ancaps probably hate me for it but, Hayek and Friedman clearly favor planning FOR competition. In the sense of, providing an infrastructure / set of rules which minimize monopoly and barriers to market entrance. I haven't read any mises/rothbard though, I wonder what their answer is (inb4 "freedumbz! stuff will sort itself out just wait :Dddd")

[–]Zifnab25Filthy Statist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hayek and Friedman clearly favor planning FOR competition

It's a rare bird that both quotes Hayek/Friedman and actually appears familiar with the material.

[–]bhknb 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (7子コメント)

The government isn't very good at it either. It monopolizes the regulatory market and then does a poor job of overseeing it's regulators. We see that with ther ratings agencies like Standard & Poor, which are the only ones allowed to regulate government bonds. When they protect their position by misleading consumers, there's an economic downturn.

Then there are companies like Creekstone Beef which implemented a strong testing program for Mad Cow in the 90's. They were sued (and they lost) by the USDA because the testing would undermine the USDA's "scientific" standing.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Uh....hate to burst your bubble. Not only is S&P not the only one allowed to regulate government bonds, they don't regulate government bonds. They are a credit rating agency (which means they research and grade securities). All three of the big ratings agencies S&P, Moody's, and Fitch are privately owned.

You just pointed out one of the best arguments for the failure of private regulatory companies. Congrats.

[–]bhknb 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I meant "rate", not "regulate." I was in a hurry. S&P, Moody's, and Fitch are the only legally accepted issuers of ratings.

You just pointed out one of the best arguments for the failure of private regulatory companies. Congrats.

So government control of who may rate government monetary instruments (in a monetary system over which it has a monopoly) is an example of failure of the private sector?

Do you ever wonder why, after that failure, S&P, Moody's and Fitch are still in business? It isn't because they did such a good job. It's because they have the government on their side. But hey, government is infallible, right? The fault must be with the private sector.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So government control of who may rate government monetary instruments (in a monetary system over which it has a monopoly) is an example of failure of the private sector?

You could start a credit rating agency right now in your garage if you wanted to, the government won't stop you.

are the only legally accepted issuers of ratings.

I mean...for the purpose of pension funds.

[–]AllWrong74Realist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

With the exception of the use of the wrong word, he actually just proved the truth of the OP. The government only allows 3 agencies to regulate, thus driving competition out of the market, thus causing that market to fail.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This isn't true. The government doesn't top other agencies from rating.

However, for the purpose of securities in pension funds etc. they only ACCEPT the ratings of those three.

[–]continous 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The USDA refused to sell testing kits because they felt it was unnecessary, they believed their random testing to be adequate enough, and that the method by which the testing was to be done by Creekstone was inaccurate, implying that they were testing younger animals than would yield accurate results. Furthermore there is evidence to suggest this was also resultant from pressure from other beef producers.

So, one, you're not necessarily right in your assumptions, and two, if you are your example shows how the private sector uses the public sector to inhibit competition, hardly a good argument in favor of the private sector.

[–]bhknb 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So regulatory capture, to you, is the fault of the private sector rather than the public sector? Oh, those poor, virtuous politicians and bureaucrats who are so put upon by evil, greedy business owners who want to undermine their benevolent and generous love for the public good.

[–]linkns86 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's really not. Which business do you think would succeed, the one that gives cxs what they asked for or the one that doesn't?

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

huh?

[–]linkns86 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Which business do you think would do well, and which do you think would do poorly?

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not even sure what you're asking. Be more specific.

[–]linkns86 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not sure how you don't understand? If one companies gives people what they ask for, and another doesn't, which company do think is going to do well?

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

...are you serious?

What if the companies that is giving the public what they want "same product, lower price" because they use lead in it?

[–]linkns86 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Somehow you manage to not answer the very simple question. Which company do you think would do well?

[–]RYouNotEntertained -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (29子コメント)

the market is terrible at regulating product safety

Obviously there are historical examples of this, but it seems totally reasonable to me for the market to compensate for this now.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I mean:

https://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/repcard2e.pdf

This information correlates pretty strongly to the regulatory environments of those countries.

[–]RYouNotEntertained -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (9子コメント)

https://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/repcard2e.pdf

Well yeah, I don't recall saying government regulations never work. I just don't buy the argument that safety regulations couldn't exist without it.

And although I'm really not trying to have this argument, I will say that without spending hours looking into it, there are some obvious confounding variables that could be skewing that correlation.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I just don't buy the argument that safety regulations couldn't exist without it.

Oh, they do exist in areas that aren't highly regulated and did exist in areas before they were highly regulated. It just turns out that consumers are NOT very good activists when it comes to health and safety.

Here is an interesting example when Ford was faced with in the 70's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Fuel_system_fires.2C_recalls.2C_and_litigation

Edit: I guess I should explain a bit. Ford knew they built a faulty fuel system into the Pinto that would result in serious injury or death. They created a cost-benefit analysis of what it would cost to re-engineer the system vs. what they thought the social cost of those injuries and death. They found that it would be better to simply leave the faulty system in place.

[–]RYouNotEntertained 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

They created a cost-benefit analysis of what it would cost to re-engineer the system vs. what they thought the social cost of those injuries and death.

Ha. Like the scene in Fight Club where he's explaining the recall calculation.

Yeah, I don't want to make it seem like I have a HUGE dog in this fight or anything. I actually think environmental regulation is one of the most legitimate functions of government. It just seems a little short-sighted to point to history and say, "see, sometimes things have been unsafe! Bring in the feds!" when there seem to be totally viable market solutions in some areas.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Pretty much!

The interesting 'quirk' of the 72' Pinto is that the way the frame compressed in only moderate head on collisions tended to jam the doors closed. This wasn't a HUGE deal...except that the weak fuel system design also meant they tended to catch on fire as well. This made for a pretty spectacular death trap.

[–]duuuh 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Taking the costs into account as Ford did is the only sane way to determine what to do. You might disagree with their math or their valuations, but the approach is correct. What you're arguing for is having government write blank checks, which is in fact what they end up doing.

[–]benfitzg 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (10子コメント)

How? The cost is bourne outside of the business. If I pollute a local river and fish downstream die how will "the market" fix this?

[–]Tride5 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The market would regulate it through the people. If enough people quit purchasing the products due to the environmental issues then the company would be forced to change. It is already starting with in the Automotive industry with electric cars. Many people are switching to electric cars (presumably because they are trying to save the environment) and automobile manufacturers are being forced to create electric cars in order for their revenues to not drop. If they do not adapt to what the people are wanting (i.e. electric cars) their company will go out of business.

[–]owenaise 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

1) the river would still be polluted, to the detriment of the environment and potentially peoples' health

2) consumers aren't that informed and don't have easy access to perfect, accurate information.

[–]WonkyTelescope 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This just isn't reasonable. Some people don't have the option. Maybe that company is the cheapest because they do not take extra steps to not pollute. Maybe I'm too poor to afford the other company.

What if it's a drilling company that doesn't directly affect me but is slowly polluting by not maintaining their well seals? They may know but without a regulatory agency actually checking the seals how would any one know?

[–]RYouNotEntertained 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I was talking about product safety, not environmental.

[–]benfitzg 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ok if a product is unsafe and it only becomes apparent after a number of years with much money to be made before then, for example asbestos, how would the market regulate that up-front to avoid multiple deaths that may have been caught by carcinogen testing?

[–]Tride5 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is an issue on both sides. It was only after people learned of the dangers of asbestos did the government step in and regulate. Once people understood the dangers they would have stopped putting it in their houses regardless of regulation, or suffer the health consequences. At which point it goes back to what some others have said, survival of the fittest.

[–]RYouNotEntertained 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wouldn't that same issue apply to government regulation? I mean, unless you want FDA approval for every product that exists.

[–]verveinloveland 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

or take them to court. ever seen erin brockavich? ya me either.

[–]user_1729 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What if a government agency does the polluting? What is our recourse against them? The recent EPA botched attempted mine clean-up in CO and subsequent massive pollution of a river is, among other things, a good example of how there is little/no recourse against the government. We can hypothesize about you polluting a river and the consequences of that, we KNOW that if the government does it (even with good intentions), there's no recourse.

[–]GeorgesTurdBlossom 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you suggesting that if a governmental entity that is trying to clean up the environment makes a mistake and actually makes it worse (e.g. Gold King), then there is no reason to have environmental regulations at all for profit companies? Can you explain why you think that follows?

[–]PooptyPewptyPaints 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't know, I kind of prefer somebody find out if a product is safe before people buy it

[–]RYouNotEntertained 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Can you honestly not imagine that existing sans government?

[–]PooptyPewptyPaints 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm struggling to think of how it would be profitable, in which case no, it wouldn't exist without government. Then again, if I knew of good ways to make industries more profitable, I'd probably have a lot more money than I do.

[–]RYouNotEntertained 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Private organizations that certify things exist now -- organic food comes to mind, as does JD Power and Associates. It's really not that hard to imagine. I mean, do you not understand why car makers tout safety records in their commercials?

[–]MogusMaximus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

How? I work in environmental compliance. I don't possibly see how the market would regulate air and water quality.

[–]RYouNotEntertained 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was referring to product safety. Environmental stuff strikes me as a little trickier, although ideas come out of libertarian circles all the time. Can't say I'm completely sold on any of them though.

[–]MogusMaximus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah OK, sorry bout that.

[–]ancap_throwaway0123 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (10子コメント)

There is a long track record of these issues going unaddressed by the market for decades until a regulation steps in.

Can you list any? Citations from fictional novels written by socialists do not count.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Can you list any?

Oh yes!

The use of lead, arsenic, and mercury in consumer products. All of which were popular until regulations.

Air quality in NYC, India, London, and China.

Google any of these and you'll get hundreds of companies that participated in poisoning the general population. That it went on for a decade or more, and is either still going on or has vastly improved since government intervention.

[–]FourDM -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lead and asbestos were phased out so rapidly that they had massive negative environmental impacts. Just because you don't trust people not to paint their houses with lead paint is not justification to set the paint industry back decades. For 20yr it was basically impossible to put a durable, cost effective coating that would last decades with little maintenance on something.

Asbestos is a similar case (albeit an outright ban is much more justifiable in its case). There were people that died because there wasn't (and isn't to my knowledge) a similarly performing insulation to replace it with. Getting cancer in 30yr is really insignificant when there's a race between the engine fire on your fishing boat and the coast guard showing up.

Toddlers are not going to be licking tractor buckets and it's not like anyone has any business licking the kinds of coatings that are presently applied to them.

[–]beeeeeeefcake 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The market includes lawsuits and prison time... you know unless regulations make seeking those things harder. Poisoned a water supply? Sucks to owe a billion dollars. Oh but the DoJ will settle for a few million and no admission of wrongdoing. And the people hurt just can't seem to get their case heard before they all die of cancer.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

lawsuits and prison time

Both of these things are reliant on laws. The more regulation there is...the easier these things are.

Oh but the DoJ will settle for a few million and no admission of wrongdoing.

Liability is extremely difficult to prove. That's always been a constant problem. DOJ or not.

[–]beeeeeeefcake 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It seems that most regulations pertain to things that people could already sue each other over. If someone objectively harms you in an unfair way, you can pretty much sue them using whatever existing laws there are. A department making regulations and rules doesn't necessarily make it easier to sue people. And neither do most new laws except in cases where everyone was pissed off in a "can't believe that's legal" type of way... e.g., yeah we might need a new law that specifically addresses your neighbor hovering his drone outside of the window because the courts just couldn't agree that peeping tom or trespassing laws apply.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It seems that most regulations pertain to things that people could already sue each other over.

Let me give you an example.

Say three factories dump waste into a river. At some point down river people are getting sick. In order to get damages you need to prove the company is at fault...and to what extent. It's extremely hard to determine "loss" in this context and who is specifically responsible for what damage. It's also prohibitively expensive to do this study for most people and communities.

Now, if there is a regulation that says "you can't dump these chemicals in the lake" this problem is MUCH more straightforward.

That's the power of regulations.

[–]jakob_roman -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Keep in mind that some of the least safe products and most polluting environments are those in countries that have the most regulation.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Uh, this isn't true. You should take a trip to India.

[–]bhknb 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

In statist speak, there are no regulations that aren't government regulations.

[–]WhiteyDude 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What's an example of a regulation that isn't a government regulation?

[–]FreshAsBasil 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah we sure saw that with the great depression! This sub has been taken over by russia bots and trumpets who want to normalize deregulation so they're rich overlords can get richer. They're has been a noticeable spike in popularity on this sub since trump won the election.

[–]GeorgesTurdBlossom 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It wasn't so hot at regulating child labor.

And how is it good at environmental protections? If a chemical factory is more profitable when dumping toxic chemicals into a river than it would be disposing of them safely, then people are somehow supposed to know that and not buy their products even though they are cheaper?

[–]rbt321 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you believe in any regulations (environmental, basic safety, disclosure, etc)?

These could be tackled by eliminating bankruptcy, limited liability, or the ability to dissolve a company (their liability can never cease to exist) and ramping up the use of personal lawsuits.

Factory tainted land 150 years ago which now poisoned your water supply? Sue their great-great grandkids or whomever inherited the factories estate into fixing it). The sole regulation would be mandatory bottomless liability insurance.

Some regulation offsets the get-out-of-jail-nearly-free card LLCs give shareholders; and without LLCs I'm not sure much would get done.

[–]Godd2if you're ancap and you know it, clap your hands 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nah

[–]Fuckenjames 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I thought pure capitalism was what we wanted and corporatism that we have today is bad? Or am I missing something?

[–]darthvader7888 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Student loans in a nutshell

[–]jc1664 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Like always an absolute does not exist. Human society is based on rules. Free market does not mean anarchy therefore some basic regulations need to exist because we as humans are greedy, and that needs to be acknowledged. By the time market adjusts itself for example the entirety of a forest may be cut or the fish that inhabit a lake are extinct and while some things can be reversed, some cannot.

I agree with the sentiment though. The regulations have become nowadays too complex and they are the cause of a lot of problems.

[–]HalfPastTunalibertarian-ish 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is the worst meme ever

[–]verusisrael 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

if it was stable and fair in the first place why would it need regulation?

[–]linkns86 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because nothing is ever a guarantee in life and this makes people feel insecure. When they feel insecure they try to control things, which invariably makes it worse. Also fairness is completely subjective and really just a term used to express someone or some group's interests.

[–]IArentDavidGary "bake the fucking cake, jew" Johnson - /u/LeeGod[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

One

Two

Three

All X-Posted from /r/Anarcho_Capitalism

[–]continous 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

They just keep getting shittier.

[–]Short_all_the_thingsleft-libertarian 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If I can't form my political and economic views from shitty memes, how am I going to know what to think?

[–]Zyxos2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The 2nd one is pretty funny though.

[–]Swayze_Train 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Ahh if only we could go back to the late nineteenth century when everything was okay. Company stores, child mining, mass graves on worksites, then the LIBERALS rocked the boat.

[–]SpiritofJamesvoluntaryist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Kolko, The Triumph of Conservatism. Read it.

[–]Swayze_Train -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The Jungle. Read it.

Without regulation employers devolve into animals.

[–]SpiritofJamesvoluntaryist 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

ROFLMAO. The Jungle is sensationalist fiction written by a socialist agitator. Kolko is an actual Marxist scholar writing a history of the progressive era in the US.

[–]Swayze_Train 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ahh so your brick of propaganda is the good stuff, and mine isn't.

Trust me, there's not anything in that book that is going to make me okay with accepting scrip instead of money for payment.

[–]SpiritofJamesvoluntaryist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why would you think there would be?

And I just noticed your ninja edit. Kolko's principal argument is that regulations were tools designed and paid for and by the very industry-dominating corporations they supposedly "regulate." Market regulation was too onerous for the vicious capitalist -- they had to buy out the government to solidify their positions. The "progressive era" is a lie that benefits the oligarchs.

[–]TheQuestion78Bleeding Heart Libertarian, friedmanite 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The liberals of the 19th century were the ones who were doing things right. Like Grover Cleveland. And we pretend the early 1900s weren't a time of rampant government corruption. Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall wouldn't have existed without the government power of regulation and ability to expand public works...the Gilded Age was no golden period of small government.

[–]Swayze_Train 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And yet they were happy with unfettered corporatism and hellish conditions for workers. Conservatives have never been in favor of small government when it cut into their pocketbooks either.

The fact remains that, without regulation and government initiatives to improve well being, the life of workers was hopeless and horrifying.

[–]ExtreemWeenieideology critic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

INB4

if pure capitalism is so bad why aren't any corporations pushing for it?

if it is in the interest of the corporations to eliminate pure capitalism why should they be left to do whatever they want?

[–]curtis_822 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I don't want to undermine their benevolent and generous love for the failure of private regulatory companies.

[–]fisher_1992 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Parents in developing countries need their kids to work for family business's in the first place.

[–]BRCitizen 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I thought memes were not allowed on this sub.

[–]Keith 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe the prevalence of shitty memes on this unregulated sub should make us rethink our political philosophy 🤔

[–]ZiioDZ -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pure capitalism is like a bike going downhill without brakes, the job of government is not to put a stick in the spokes but rather to gently apply regulations to it slow down so it doesn't get out of control and crash.