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Reddit's growing anti-women atmosphere (self.Feminism)

ProblematicFeet が 投稿

I've been on Reddit for three years. I have noticed recently they have become progressively more anti-women. Thoughts?

Edit: just the handful of people commenting and echoing my feelings makes me feel so much better. It's good to know that we are out there!

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[–]Rugz90 93 ポイント94 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I agree,

I'm not sure how long i've been here, but I've definitely noticed the trend. I think it's a very concrete example of the whole 'circlejerk' nature of reddit. If a small idea catches on a bit it spreads like crazy and crushes dissenting ideas by creating an environment that is hostile to discussion. I don't bother talking feminism to anyone anymore because it always ends in a shitstorm. I used to try and point out the mistakes people make when they think feminism, so often on reddit you see feminism = feminazi ultra radical man-hating etc etc blah, but if you try to explain that that isn't the deal at all, any conversation becomes toxic. I've been called crazy shit over PM's like being a psycho bitch and a man hater and all that, which is a bit odd cause I'm a dude.

I think the internet has always been like this a bit though, most demographics for internet sub-cultures are 20 something white male, and the notion of feminism wouldn't fly around too much all things considered, but once the whole SJW stuff started I think its become popular to hold anti-women views (Despite the target they attack has almost nothing to do with feminism).

[–]blueeyedconcreteFeminist 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (2子コメント)

you have been on reddit for 1 year, 7 months and 3 days :-)

It has been getting worse over time, and I believe most of us take the same path you took. We first try to talk to people like we talk to our peers and expect a logical response. When that doesn't work, we get into a passionate debate about what feminism really is. Finally, we give up and avoid talking about it all together.

I've had a few people threaten to "dox" me, someone who thought that another person in the thread that was agreeing with them was also me on an alt account, a few nasty PMs.. it gets old.

[–]Rugz90 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thank you for letting me know how long! I've been around a couple months before I created account, but that's very long. I think its definitely a new trend then, or at very least, I hadn't noticed it before.

I think the anonymity of the internet makes people think they can behave in ways that are unreasonable without repercussions, which in some sense is true. I think peoples morals are a little screwed up if it depends on whether or not they can get away with things, rather than thinking that the person they are typing to is a human being.

It's a little disheartening to see, when people get so angry and hateful about these issues that they PM and spam awful shit. It seems to even happen here, with leetdragoon commenting below.

[–]blueeyedconcreteFeminist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I realize now that that could have come off as creepy. I just hovered over your username to see how long you've had an account.

I really love the respect that I always find in this sub, it seems like so much more of a human place, where people act with social responsibility much in the same way they would in public. It's a rare treat on the internet. Thanks to the mods of course. I didn't even see the offensive comment before it was removed.

[–]mmmelissaaa 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've been on Reddit for 7 years. It's been getting steadily worse the entire time, but the past few years have seen a massive influx of people to the site. It is definitely bad right now, and I've unsubscribed from just about every major subreddit as a result.

[–]Zarkdion 48 ポイント49 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I haven't even been around for three years and I think that reddit as a whole is trending towards anti-women and anti-reasonability. It's why I try to stay away from really popular subs and trend towards subs with a specific content focus like r/Terraria or r/metal, rather than general-content subs such as r/pics or r/funny. It helps block out the brunt of the mysogyny and assholery that OP's noticing.

[–]KUmitchFeminist Ally 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (7子コメント)

/r/metal is one sub that i've noticed has a really positive attitude towards social justice stuff, a lot more than other music subs i've visited. i've been spending a lot of time there lately, i really like the community

[–]Zarkdion 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Glad you're finding it that way! I see something very similar in a lot of metal culture. I think that r/metal's trend of positivity towards social justice stems from metal culture valuing actions, thoughts, and philosophies that go against restrictive societal norms. That is, things that raise a giant middle finger to the mainstream. Metal culture, from what I've seen, is about uplifting individual expression against a repressive "normal" society that restricts such expression.

[–]KUmitchFeminist Ally 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

yeah, and there's a pretty long-going trend in metal music of left-leaning ideology. napalm death and a lot of the early grind scene in general were very politically outspoken, as were a lot of thrash bands. there's a big macho trend too and problematic bands, but as a whole metal's not too bad.

[–]Zarkdion 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not gonna deny the machismo. It's there and can be stifling for those who don't "look the part" so to speak. And yeah, we do have our problematic bands (cough NSBM cough), but I'm glad you're enjoying the music and the rest of the culture.

[–]eton975 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Could it ever be problematic? I know most of us here probably have a liberal leaning, but could it ever become a movement against the status quo for the sake of being against the status quo?

[–]Zarkdion 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

but could it ever become a movement against the status quo for the sake of being against the status quo?

We have a term for that, actually: being a poseur. Bands whose music panders to the usual metal stereotypes, but...

  • whose members do not have some kind of connection with the music they play,
  • who are only in the metal scene to profit from it,
  • in some cases, whose music is not an authentic representation of the band's sound (that is, music that has been heavily altered in post-production to be more appealing to listeners),

are by and large looked down upon.

See, for example, this song by crabcore band "Attack Attack". Note the obvious use of autotune, the headbanging, and the fact that all their members take a pose that looks like they're strange crab people. Also, using both the "band playing in some kind of desert" and "white woman as main character" tropes is a clear sign that this band is attempting to pander to metalheads with the video, probably with the intention of distracting metalheads from the fact that the vocals are cleaner than the inside of the Large Hadron Collider.

We, that is the metal community, don't like this band.

tl;dr metal culture won't become a "movement against the status quo for the sake of being against the status quo" because such a philosophy is at odds with the very thing that makes metal... well, metal.

Sorry for the distraction.

[–]WillyRocketGiraffeFeminist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This. I've been on /r/metal for years and despite a lot of sexism in the genre as a whole (as a metalhead I acknowledge it), the sub is really chill.

[–]KUmitchFeminist Ally 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

yeah metal as a genre definitely has had problems with sexism, racism, homophobia, etc, but the community there is really open and progressive. I started checking it regularly maybe half a year or so ago but I loved it instantly.

[–]soozafone 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's awful. I can't tell if it's gotten worse or I've gotten more aware of sexism in general, but it's bad. Yesterday I basically purged my front page of all of the big subs, and only left safe spaces like this one and small communities only available here.

[–]sir_lemongrab 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (6子コメント)

There's a "woman lying about being raped" story on the front page at least every other week. Fun fact, men are more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape.

You know why this really, really sucks? Because when stories like these become the center of attention, it makes it even harder for women to come forward and report. Because when a woman does get the courage to come forward, one of the first things that people ask is "How horrible would it be if she was lying?"

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    [–]DavidJCobb 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Group polarization. If a group doesn't have enough contact with nuanced sympathetic views or with good-faith opposing views, then the group's members become polarized -- their attitudes become more and more extreme over time.

    reddit allows all sorts of hateful people to form insulated communities where they end up being polarized. Due to its massive popularity, reddit also provides countless opportunities for people with mildly bad attitudes to be drawn to and into these groups; people who could be salvaged are instead turned into vitriolic bigots.

    [–]canadian-tree-girlLiberal Feminism 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I absolutely agree that it's been getting worse. I've only been on here for two-ish years, and I've seen it.

    From what i have seen, the progression went like this: A vocal minority on Reddit absolutely hated women. Their opinions got voiced, and people read it. People read enough of it, and they started to agree with it more and more. Then they encountered a woman that they disliked, and took to their safest space (i.e. Reddit) to spew their hatred of a particular woman. People echo with their own stories of particular women, and soon the assumption goes from 'this woman I know falsely accused a man of rape' to 'women accuse men of rape'.

    It's gotten so bad that I don't feel safe commenting on large threads with dissenting opinions or thoughts for fear of very negative repercussions (like threats of doxing). Sometimes I read through comments on big subs and see the blatant sexism (and even people saying 'its not sexist because ___') and am just heartbroken because they don't even realise how bad they are.

    [–]ManofManyTalentz 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (14子コメント)

    I'm a casual lurker on /r/feminism, and I consider myself a male feminist, of the egalitarian (equity) brand.

    I sincerely hope that, even if the anti-women trend we're talking about here turns out to be true (which is hard to quantify anyways), that all of you fantastic people stick around. We can only help each other and remove repression by education, and we can't do that if the people with the knowledge aren't here.

    I sincerely thank all of you for the positive topics and messages that you all leave here in this sub. Here's to a great future where gender is not a weapon nor a target.

    [–]demmianTransnational Feminism -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I'm a filthy casual lurker on /r/feminism, and I consider myself a male feminist, of the egalitarian (equity) brand.

    It is very stupid to use the "egalitarian" qualifier for feminism. If it doesn't support equality of rights, it is not feminism. The "equity feminism " has been started by a notorious anti-feminist, Christina Hoff Summers, as a means to further discredit feminists and their ideology. Don't use that again tbh.

    [–]KUmitchFeminist Ally 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    yeah the only time i ever see "egalitarian" used is when people bring it up as a counter to feminism, with the implication that feminism is actually about trying to give women more rights than men. i'm a male feminist and i don't see the need to qualify my feminism because feminism as it is is supportive of men.

    [–]demmianTransnational Feminism -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    i don't see the need to qualify my feminism because feminism as it is is supportive of men.

    Indeed. Though focused on issues affecting women, feminism is definitely supportive of all struggles to achieve equality of rights.

    [–][deleted] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I avoid a great deal of defaults for this very reason.

    [–]DJWalnutAnarcha-feminism 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I've noticed it too. since I joined 3 years ago reddit has gotten more and more reactionary. thankfully all the subreddits I use haven't been affected. I've started using Hubski and the people there are much nicer.

    [–]wyldeanimal 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (19子コメント)

    I am a woman and I honestly haven't even noticed this. Weird. What's wrong with me?

    [–]Tui_La_push_pullLiberal Feminism 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Nothing wrong! I notice this the most when I am commenting (as many other people here have noted), so if you don't make feminist/ feminist sounding comments, you may not experience the phenomenon.

    [–]wyldeanimal 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Well I'm gonna start now!

    [–]sea_warrior 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    There are frequently front page posts furthering sexist stereotypes about women (nagging sexless shrew wives, stupid hot chicks) or supporting the idea of innate male superiority. The former occasionally appears in the reverse, but from a male perspective (sex-crazed man does stupid thing because he is a man and therefore sex-crazed); the latter never does.

    [–]ProblematicFeet[S] 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (13子コメント)

    There is nothing wrong with you. It could just be your interests. I'm interested in and study feminism, so I naturally take notice in things that are related to gender. I suggest you watch Miss Representation. It's a phenomenal doc that will educate you and hopefully peak your interest!

    [–]wyldeanimal 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (12子コメント)

    I would also say that I'm definitely a feminist. Maybe I need to pay closer attention.

    [–]ProblematicFeet[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (11子コメント)

    As someone pointed out it is primarily seen in the comments. I left a source citing rape statistics and someone replied, "Found Berta!". After googling it, I found that Berta Lovejoy was an outspoken feminist on Reddit that has now become a punchline.

    [–]wyldeanimal 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    that's fucked

    [–][deleted] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    The misogynists on this site will never believe any sources citing rape stats, they always come up with some way to turn it around and make it a ~what about the menz?~ situation.

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        [–]FinickyPenanceFeminist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        please read this

        [–]YesAllCatsReally 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        It's about pointing out hypocrisy, not safe spaces,lol.

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          [–]nani_kore 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I haven't experienced sexism on here either, but I think Tui is right, it's because I don't speak much on feminists issues on reddit. Didn't even know this sub existed until about 15 minutes ago.

          [–]demmianTransnational Feminism 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (11子コメント)

          Crank magnetism

          http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crank_magnetism

          Reddit is well on its way to becoming the host of the largest hate site on the internet - coontown is almost as big as the main stormfront site.

          So yeah, racists and sexists ban together. It's the same reason you see huge overlap between mras's and kia and TRP and white rights, etc.

          [–]haircut74 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (7子コメント)

          The admins keep maintaining that they want reddit to remain some kind of free speech platform for the racists and sexists et al while at the same time becoming an open and inclusive platform for everyone, which is absolutely ridiculous. They can't say that the shit subs are for the shit while the rest of reddit is for normal, decent people. The shit is already welcomed to the site, and there's nothing stopping the shit from spreading throughout reddit. If you don't take out the trash, the whole place starts to smell, and eventually it becomes so noxious that it's not safe for anyone.

          [–]eton975 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I guess it depends on whether you're concerned about the ideology or the practical effects.

          [–]MikiLove 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

          Well, there are quite a few ways that they can stop the smaller subs from spreading, the main one being the anti-brigading and witch hunting rules the admins put into place. Subs like coontown can't even directly link and brigade like they did in the past.

          [–]demmianTransnational Feminism -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Subs like coontown can't even directly link and brigade like they did in the past.

          No, they most certainly still can link, and brigades happen all over the place on reddit.

          [–]MikiLove 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          I mean if you are witnessing issues of brigading from any subs (outside of maybe a sports sub) you should report it to mods and the admins. That is against Reddit policy. I have to say brigading seems to be down lately in my experience.

          [–]demmianTransnational Feminism -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I did that just yesterday. I received no feedback at all from the admins so far.

          [–]MikiLove 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          What was the case?

          [–]ProblematicFeet[S] 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Ah, I see. Makes sense. I used to feel there was an appreciation for women in more than a physical sense. Now I consistently see comments and posts demeaning women, particularly women whose appearance isn't considered attractive in mainstream media, being put down and harassed. I have made a handful of slightly feminist comments in response to these posts and am ALWAYS downvoted. Example: Cited a source to prove that the majority of reported rapes were committed by men and was downvoted. I explained in my comment that of course false accusations occur and they harm everyone's best interests, etc. I'm just tired of participating in a community that doesn't promote intellectual and societal equality of something so basic. :(

          [–]eton975 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I think it's really just confirmation bias.

          "Nonononoonononoooooo I'm not really wrong am I?" Cherry-picks tiny details on why study might be wrong or says it's biased

          I wish people would just shrug off being wrong about something. It's not exactly an important thing.

          [–][deleted] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Yeah I thought so too, and there is an appreciation in guys who are mature, thank god. But it makes me so sad that everytime someone finds out that I support feminism, it suddenly causes them to think less of me or to think I'm man-hating, which couldn't be further from the truth. It's like wanting equality for women is some really really evil thing and feminists have male voodoo dolls which they torture 'cause secretly they hate men all the while every one of those people who judge feminism are completely blind towards all that happens in society which feminism tries to fix or are okay with it..

          [–]Barneyk 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (18子コメント)

          It is a big problem not only on reddit but on the internet, and in the world, in general.

          There is a backlash against feminism and women that is really growing in a scary way.

          Reddit is a perfect example of it though and I am disgusted by the way the new CEO was forced out and stuff.

          Reddit is big though, plenty of subreddits are great, but the frontpage and r/all is a horrible horrible place...

          [–]olivia_rose_ 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (4子コメント)

          Maybe Reddit is just reflecting this backlash which has grown in visibility along with feminism in the media.

          [–]Barneyk 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Well, sort of. But reddit is also where it breeds and grows.

          Male dominated places often creates an anti-feminist echo chamber and reddit plays a huge part in that...

          [–]ProblematicFeet[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          We discussed this in a class I recently took. With the growth of one movement comes the natural growth of its opposition. Sad but true, as you can see in Reddit lol

          [–]Barneyk 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          It is also a huge problem with the "internet echo chamber problem".

          Where people only read news and information from sources that confirm their world view.

          I have unsubscribed from several gaming subreddits and stopped visiting several websites because I was slapped in the face with anti-feministic bullshit every single fucking visit.

          It is a huge fucking problem...

          [–]klieber 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Is it possible she left/was forced out for reasons other than her gender? It doesn't seem as though the only explanation for her departure is tied to the fact she's a woman.

          She was surrounded by controversy outside of reddit as well and she had instituted changes that were unpopular with a lot of folks. (Not saying the changes were bad, mind you, but they weren't tied to her gender)

          [–]Barneyk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I am not even saying anytihng about her gender, how are you reading that into what I am saying?

          I am simply talking about "the controversy". Gamergate, hate-subreddits etc. And plenty of that and the mod backlash is very closely tied together with anti-feminism. As is a huge part of reddit as a whole.

          The fact that she is a woman did play a part though, but not very much. The hate towards change took a lot of misogynist expressions though because she is a woman. Just read the comments about her on this site.

          But that was not at all the reason and I never said it was.

          [–]klieber 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Another point of view is that people didn't like her because of the actions she took, both at reddit and outside. They then looked for ways to attack her and chose things that were easy to latch on to. Her gender, her race, etc. Yes, the statements were horrible and completely inexcusable. My only point is that it's not immediately obvious (to me, at least) that they were the root of what people objected to about Ellen. Or, frankly, even one of the primary factors.

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            [–]demmianTransnational Feminism -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            • she didn't fire Victoria

            • she didn't fire Dacvak for health reasons

            • she didn't push for AMA changes

            How can you be so ignorant. Oh wait, this was all an excuse to hate on her for banning FPH, right?

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              [–]Barneyk 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

              That was not something I was implying.

              And she resigned because of the controversy, I would call that forced out.

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                [–]Barneyk 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                Are you saying that the controversy had nothing to do with her leaving?

                [–]ProblematicFeet[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                I think the Ellen Pao situation is unusual. There is some PR team that told her and everyone else what to say and when to resign, etc. because of how big the issue became. I would be willing to bet money that she was told to resign, not quit. Your opinion is completely valid and of course you can have a differing opinion. That is what allows growth! But, with this issue, there is really no way to know exactly what happened because of the PR stuff.

                [–]lindro99 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

                Exactly how is it getting worse?

                [–]ProblematicFeet[S] 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                In my opinion, people have become more vocal. I took notice especially with the Ellen Pao situation. Instead of focusing on the perceived lack of judgment as a CEO, it was about her gender. MANY posts were about her lack of ability to lead because she was a woman. They would make fun of her looks, speculate about her private sex life, and make fun of her lawsuit regarding gender discrimination. Almost all of the comments and posts were only regarding her gender.

                Edit: Here is a meme that came up after a quick search of "Ellen Pao". It isn't the best example but shows just how disrespectful people were toward her regarding her gender. https://i.imgur.com/C9Dufhp.png

                [–]coreythestarFeminist 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                My first thought when I read that Pao was stepping down: "Oh good, now they'll think they were right."

                I hated that whole situation. So much vitriol.

                [–]eton975 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                I think the telling thing is that's there's literally 1/100 the hate for Alexis, who's definitely been involved in some of the actions that people blame on Pao. But... he's a man.

                Tbh I think people are latching on far too much to the idea that Pao is a sinister character conspiring against us Redditors. Really she's like any other CEO, just maybe a little less communicative.

                [–]Ganon_Cubana 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                Could part of it be that people just blamed the person who was supposed to be in charge? I agree Alexis should be getting talked about more, but I doubt people aren't doing it because he's a man. It's like when the US does something stupid. People complain about whoever the current president is. The truth is the president could have nothing to do with it and people still blame the office, because they are supposed to be in charge.

                [–]eton975 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Perhaps. You saw all sorts of weird upvoted sexist shit on the defaults though.

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                  [–]ProblematicFeet[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  From the research I've done, many Redditors did not welcome her right off the bat because of her gender discrimination lawsuit. They believed she was a money-hungry cheater. However, I definitely agree that the firing of Victoria did not help at all. It only added fuel to the fire.

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                    [–]FinickyPenanceFeminist[M] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Not even in jest, please :P

                    [–]provoko 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    It was a disgusting display. After r/fatpeoplehate got banned, the worst offenders attacked Ellen Pao in any way they could; they also showed they were misogynists. They used bots to upvote their spam. I think some people were converted into MRAs, but the majority bought gold and downvoted as much as they could.

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                                  [–]phillipkdink 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  I'm glad to see this thread. I've felt really uncomfortable lately with how grotesque it's been feeling on this site lately - so many hateful sentiments upvoted to the point that a feminist perspective is entirely drowned out.

                                  I feel my days are numbered on this site if this keeps up.

                                  [–][deleted] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  It's not just reddit it's in real life too. It's like fighting for human rights is something that makes you evil, god forbid we actually become more open-minded

                                  [–]nachpach 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                  There's also a general disrespect for women all around. Anytime a picture makes it to the front page that has an attractive girl in it and the post isn't about the attractive girl, the top comment is always something along the lines of "We all know why this is on the front page." Like people are only upvoting because they think the girl is hot and care less about the content of the post, like women aren't actually on this website acting as human beings but as objects.

                                  [–]nani_kore 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  I think the internet has always been this way. Always.

                                  [–][deleted] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                  So if a photo portraits a woman, is she not the object of the photo? That is how we say in my language, woman or man.

                                  I guess you could talk about shutter time and focusing distance or even kelvin. But I think most people aren't that interested in that sort of thing.

                                  What do you think of the direction of light in this picture? http://imgur.com/gallery/20M7MOA personally I like the colors.

                                  [–]nachpach 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  I was speaking specifically about pictures that are about something else but one of the top comments are "we all know why this got to the front page." Which I'm saying I see often on this website specifically. I wasn't talking about every picture ever.

                                  [–][deleted] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  I see, my bad. :)

                                  [–]kamace11 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  Also agreed. The intense focus on false rape cases is pretty disgusting- it's a thinly veiled attempt to tear down the current discussion about assault and rape while pretending they're 'noble' and just care about 'justice'... Shoot me please.

                                  [–]ResoluteSir 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                  Many people ITT seem to feel there is no point in debating for feminism because of the onslaught of downvotes. I entirely disagree.

                                  I'm part of another group who's views are the minority (/r/vegan), and you can imagine how unpopular these views are on mainstream subreddits. Despite this, I rarely see a view bashing this group, that is not challenged.

                                  This has only been achieved by constant tireless debating. It may seem pointless at the time, but if you never turn up to the debate, you have already lost.

                                  Here's a short debate I think was kinda successful

                                  [–]demmianTransnational Feminism 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  It is worth pointing out that veganism is far, far, less controversial on the internet (reddit included) than feminism is. There may be some individuals out there scared of veganism, but there is no mass hysteria about evil feminists having a stranglehold on society, out to get all men. You are talking about vastly different challenges.

                                  [–]ResoluteSir 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  That's very true. You could argue people don't feel as threatened.

                                  But, If you start talking about animal rights, and the morality of treating animals the way we do, then people do feel threatened and offended, it's perceived as attacking their morals, and their habits.

                                  Regardless of which group has the biggest hurdles to jump, it still shows progress can be made, and at a significant rate.

                                  [–]provoko 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                  Guy here, also a guy against MRA, and also against anti-women sentiments. I'd like to shed some light on why I think there's a growing anti-women atmosphere. Basically it's from resentment and immaturity.

                                  Men resent the following: Women being offended at game characters; fat acceptance; men getting blamed for women not getting certain jobs and pay gap; women being able to sexually assault men and being told it's isolated or not a problem; female only groups and being told to allow females into men only groups; feminists spending their time on trivial issues in the US while (what appears to be) ignoring female genital mutilation, female sex slaves, acid attacks on women, and Islamic female oppression; men not getting any sympathy from feminists on male on male rape; feminists focusing on violence against females and ignoring male on male violence; feminists putting the burden of responsibility on men when it comes to consent; and men getting banned in sub reddits like this.

                                  As a guy, I share maybe 1% of the resentments above, but the average male redditor probably is enraged over those resentments on a daily basis. I think it's because they're young and they don't understand that feminists are focused on their issues, so boys think it's unfair; best guess as a male.

                                  EDIT: Great, now I got MRAs up my ass...

                                  [–][削除されました]  (12子コメント)

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                                    [–]provoko -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                    Unfortunately men's rights wouldn't exist if feminism didn't exist, because it's a counter movement or backlash to feminism.

                                    Men's rights is not about equal rights, that's what Feminism is and it's pretty clear definition. Men's right is about spite and curbing whatever they think is a threat from women. It's also about retaining power that men overwhelming have and to expand on that power.

                                    We're men, we pretty much have all the power, how much more power do you want us to have? If you're really about equality, you wouldn't be an MRA or join movements which are counter.

                                    [–][削除されました]  (10子コメント)

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                                      [–]provoko -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                      Ok, consider this, 2 buckets, first bucket is labeled men and it's almost full of water, the second bucket is labeled women and almost empty. The only way for these 2 buckets to be equal is for the water in the man's bucket to be poured into the woman's. Hence feminism brings equality.

                                      [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

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                                        [–]provoko -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        so the analogy was to help pete606 understand what feminism is doing, it's making things equal

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                                          [–]provoko -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          In a way, but it sounds like you're cherry picking the things you don't like and then coming to the conclusion that feminism is flawed, but your perspective is flawed.

                                          The fact that you think there's more water (power) that women have on some issues proves your perspective is flawed. Any woman would trade in that tiny amount of power over men for all the power you have over women. And you being an MRA would just take that power away from women anyways.

                                          Here's what MRAs would accomplish if they could:

                                          1) higher punishments for false rape accusations - this would make more female victims silent in fear they could get fined or jailed if it came down to them vs the rapist's high paid lawyer

                                          2) more education for boys - they don't need more eduction or help vs girls

                                          3) reproductive rights for men - this one is ludicrous and if MRAs give any more power to guys, you'll have rapists forcing women not to get an abortion, or women stuck with a child that men won't take care of

                                          4) remove the stigma of men as pedophiles - feminism has nothing to do with this, male pedophiles are to blame and ruined it for all men, I hate them and I want them all to die. I don't see MRAs helping this issue, if anything they could make it worse.

                                          5) abolish circumcision - this has nothing to do with feminism, in fact the feminists have been dropping the ball lately on female genital mutilation, I don't know why. But if you're against circumcision, like I am, you should join an anti-circumcision movement and not have it lost in MR issues.

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                                            [–]provoko 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                            Sorry, I think we got off track here, is reddit growing an anti-women atmosphere?

                                            [–]marsyredSocialist Feminism 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            Yup. As a female scientist, when I comment about the retention of women in STEM, stereotype threats, and the importance of diversity in engineering for product development, I'm more often than not, met with extreme cynicism and resistance (aka downvotes to oblivion). I'm truly not about polarization; I'm very much about education and social equality. I'm at a loss why that threatens so many people on here.

                                            & I don't even want to think about how rape is treated on the majority of Reddit. It really gets me depressed.

                                            Honestly, I think the major difference isn't gender so much as socio-economic status. People who have had it easy often find it hard to believe that others struggle due to societal constraints/pressures.

                                            [–]Byphin 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                            It's the MRA hive-mind in affect. It only takes a little propaganda to whip them into a frenzy as seen with Ellen's resignation. They use devious tactics to indoctrinate and deceive other Redditers into executing their commands. It's a serious problem.

                                            [–]saynotogymtimidation 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                            Teenager here, my white friends, count five, seem to be infatuated with this men's rights movement, if you wanna even call it that. Talking to them, two say they're tired of man hate, though, no lie, their only able to cite some YouTube videos they probably searched for, and tumblr posts that they dictated as representative of feminism. (the other ones I talked to about it, do it to piss people off, I hate teenagers sometimes [cue pro feminist fedora]) Social media and YouTube seem to really ruin the feminist movement. People's views are often just 'feminists just hate on cis males like me' our they have close to no nuance in their views, 'their are the good feminists and bad feminists, with close to no knowledge of the many facets outside of mainstream feminism. Twitter seems to often employ the old 'if you say it loud enough, it must be true' mannerism so I think when a meninist post ''exposing'' feminists gets thousands of retweets it seems to really get in the minds of teenagers. It's just sickening because I see too many people just be completely irrational, like they'll tell feminists to quit being offended, to 'quit getting your panties in a bunch', then turn around and get their own panties in a bunch when feminists point out problems women face and claim 'man hate'. I'm just really hoping this men's rights movement trends out quicker than Ed Hardy.

                                            I'm speaking as the brother (and future feminist when I earn that title) of an indigenous feminist so I really can't tell you too much about the other side's experience like many of us at the subreddit can't.

                                            [–]ResoluteSir 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            Social media and YouTube seem to really ruin the feminist movement.

                                            Here is a Youtube search for feminism:

                                            • Feminism, taking STUPIDITY to the next level

                                            • Feminism vs Truth

                                            • (channel) End Feminism

                                            • Bla bla bla something about Ellen Pao

                                            • Everything wrong with feminism in 8 minutes or less

                                            • More feminist fails 2015

                                            Despite this, in these videos creators like to present their opinions as they are the minority, fighting against the goliath which is feminism.

                                            It needs to be pointed out how similar this self-victimization, "oh its men that are really oppressed", is to what conservatives do to justify there views on minorities and the poor.

                                            Edit:to add https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBkoiEJ0gWI

                                            [–]AdumbroDeusQueer Feminism 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            Actually I think it's the opposite. Reddit has been very vocally anti-women for a while, but these days it seems that it's more and more becoming socially unacceptable in general conversation. It used to be whenever you said anything feminist at all you'd be immediately attacked and downvoted in any thread on any subreddit that wasn't explicitly female or queer interested (or populated almost exclusively by social sciences academics eg r/badhistory), and even then you'd occasionally get it (eg gaymers).

                                            These days however there seems to be a lot of very visible vitriol but if the post isn't explicitly related to women's or feminism, if it somehow comes up in conversation in the comments you rarely hit that level of vitriol except in subs politically aligned with men's movements. Granted it still happens occasionally but never has it been as rare since I joined 3 years ago.

                                            Yet, there's so much extreme vitriol in threads explicitly related to it.

                                            I think what's going on is the same thing that's going on with racism in America, the hardcore misogynists are becoming rarer and less acceptable but those who remain are hyper committed and because they see the principal that their lives are founded on threatened they respond with public hyper aggression, essentially brigading any topic that directly relates to it on the default subs.

                                            So it seems to be more as a result of recognition that they're losing rather and trying to convince people to join their cause thus making it more visible but ironically illustrating that it's weakening.

                                            [–]Lauren_96 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            I've always shied away from Reddit because of it's seemingly anti-women mentality. I have to say this is probably the least accepting website I am on. I think there's definitely a way to stay away from the sexism, depending on what subreddits you subscribe to, but we really shouldn't have to change what we subscribe to in order to avoid being borderline harassed. It makes me so angry that mra's and the likes of them can voice their opinions so freely with such little backlash.

                                            [–][deleted] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            Why can't redditors acknowledge phallocratic rape culture, the oppression of young women in America and the need for continual, verifiable affirmative consent during sexual encounters to prevent male sexual predation?

                                            [–]ReyTheRed -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            I'm not convinced it is growing, but there is definitely an anti-women atmosphere. It has become more visible, especially lately, but I think it has been there for as long as I've been around, and it is actually getting a little bit better in some subtle ways.

                                            I think there are more people doing the right thing than there have been in the past, which has lead to a vocalization of the ignorance that before was just assumed and unchallenged.