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[–]bluepy67 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Well, I can sort of relate. But think about it--if you were a woman, you wouldn't date yourself since by your own admission, you are ugly and you wouldn't date an ugly woman. Maybe you should consider fit women with good personalities. I don't know . . .

It's hard to look back to the 20's, when looks were so important. I suppose they still are for many people, but from my perspective at 50, looks and income are illusions. In the end, personality is everything and kindness is paramount. Ymmv, but I hope you find success.

[–]Master_of_Ritual 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not realistic for most people to drastically change what they're attracted to. And the hypocrisy angle is silly. You're not required to be attracted to the same traits you have--a lot of relationships involve people who bring different things to the table.

[–]luridlurkerObserving the Dick Derby 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

In the end, personality is everything and kindness is paramount.

This. A million times over. Looks and money were easy for me, and I think that fortunately lead me to realize they're not important. Kindness and personality are everything.

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]luridlurkerObserving the Dick Derby 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yes. Do you?

    [–][deleted] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    [–]crazylighterIntelligence is not situated in the crotch 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Well first off, welcome to the blue pill (just remember we aren't a philosophy, just a satire subreddit). Let's see if I can quickly sum up what you've written to help me digest it all and see what you are saying:

    1. You take responsibility for your lot in romance and don't blame or hate women for not falling at your feet.

    2. You sometimes feel disappointed and bitter that you haven't met the right girl... but you realize that you aren't entitled to someone loving you and the world isn't fair.

    3. In your late 20s, you are a lean tall Indian guy that works at a hospital for sick children in the UK. You have normal hobbies, like to work out and are just a normal, easy going guy. You think it's important to mention this because you want to be clear that you aren't a "neck beard living in your parent's basement" and don't fall into the typical stereotype of "Nice Guys" or true cells, red pill or other sexual strategies.

    4. Why you are writing this is to show that "true celebrates" or "virgin guys" don't always follow the stereotypes that are often written about in the blue pill subreddit.

    Okay, now I will try responding to you since I think I have a better understanding of your situation and your concerns:

    • The blue pill is just a satire subreddit- that means we tend to make fun of or mock the stereotypical red pill user, forever alone, truecel and mengoingtheir own way (MGTOW) user.

    • To mock these subreddits we often compile their most common traits and focus on their biggest insecurities. This works because they want to be seen as "the Big Man on Campus", "the Alpha Male" and the "Lady Slayer" when their reality is closer to a rapist, angry bitter man, socially awkward and living in their parent's basement.

    • We mock the above as it helps contain them to their subreddit instead of letting them recruit divorcees, the broken hearted, and other vulnerable men. Also, mocking something makes it less scary and is calming for some. Additionally, it brings attention to the truth of their subreddits and helps people identify these people in real life.

    • Now why is this important to you? I would agree with you and say you are not a "True Cel"... you are just a guy who is single and hasn't met the right girl. You've tried to meet others but you've been rejected in the past- but you don't blame women, you try to improve yourself through boosting your confidence, going to the gym, work hard and having hobbies.

    So you aren't the demographic that the blue pill is mocking- if you attempted to force women to have sex with you, set enraged texts upon rejection, or felt entitled to women loving you... that's another story.

    In fact, you are welcome to stay- like I said, you aren't the kind of person we mock. It might help if you stick around to see what I mean, you might even see some things that might help you on your dating journey like seeing what women feel about certain personalities, or how others have met their loved ones, or how other virgins deal with being alone or dating.

    Once again, welcome to the blue pill- just try to keep your paragraphs shorter and your points more to the point and you'll do fine. :)

    [–]TMC122[S] 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Thanks for the detailed reply! You're spot on in your summary. I do apologise for my misunderstanding of the subreddit, I didn't realise it was solely satirical. While I might not be the kind of person mocked here, I will admit that it's been far too easy at times to read things on the red pill and similar places and consider implementing those ideas. The only thing that's stopped me thusfar is the fact that doing so would mean changing who I am in order to potentially attract women and that's not something i'd be happy doing (even if it did work, which i'm not convinced it does).

    Apologies again for the long paragraphs in the OP, i'm sure you can appreciate that rambling away can be quite cathartic!

    [–]nosungdeeptongswhite knighting all over your plates 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You seem like a smart guy. Changing for other people is miserable bullshit.

    [–]crazylighterIntelligence is not situated in the crotch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Oh certainly, I figured you missed the satirical part of the subreddit- a lot of people do. :P It's kind of like the Onion, a satire piece that touches on serious issues but puts in a humorous and factitious light. A lot of people get pretty angry at us until they realize we are being sarcastic, exaggerating or role playing lol.

    I hope you won't take us too seriously, the only thing we are serious about is that the red pill is bad for both men and women. For men is it is harmful because it puts a band-aid on a bullet hole- if you have insecurities it doesn't help to blame women for your problems. It forces men to hide their emotions, stop communicating their concerns and keeps them stuck in a vicious cycle of toxic masculinity and static gender roles. For women, it causes women to be insecure, stuck in an abusive relationship, may force them to be raped and be a sex slave instead of a wife or girlfriend.

    Unfortunately you are the prime demographic target that the red pill tries to reel in (single, virgin male who wants a girlfriend), so I hope they won't draw you in. Keep focusing on improving yourself, having fun hobbies and keep trying to meet new people, you never know what might happen!

    [–]bluepy67 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Also, I wouldn't think of yourself as not a "high quality guy." That's just destructive to talk to yourself like that. FWIW, my best friend is a guy who can't get a date; hasn't in years. He's handsome and smart, but very, very shy (and he has unrealistic expectations--wants to date a woman in her 30's when he's in his mid 50's.) If you're shy, that is something to work on, because you can't get dates if you aren't out there asking.

    [–]TMC122[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thanks for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it.

    I do consider myself a high quality guy for reasons listed in my post, but perhaps not high quality 'enough'. For example, a good friend of mine since school is pretty much the exact same as me in every way (height, fitness, profession, personality) but he's fair skinned and handsome. Women are always checking him out, slipping him their numbers, etc. When we used to go to a club during uni, girls would appear seeming out of nowhere and ask him to dance - purely based on his physical attractiveness. Obviously he's a great guy and i'm really happy for him. His attractiveness just adds more 'quality' to him that I can't match unfortunately, and that makes a big difference. But on a hypothetical national scale, if all the men were summarised onto a sheet of A4 paper each (kinda like a CV), I know I would be decently high in the pile - so it's not an issue of lacking self confidence.

    I'd like to believe i'm not shy at all, it'd be really hard to do my job if I had difficulty communicating! I'm quite outgoing and at ease talking to friends and strangers alike.

    You're absolutely correct when you say: 'if you were a woman, you wouldn't date yourself since by your own admission, you are ugly and you wouldn't date an ugly woman.' Other guys date girls who aren't as attractive as they are, and they are better men than me - but it gave me hope that the same would be true in reverse and I would be able to date a girl who's "out of my league", although perhaps that's naive and wishful thinking.

    [–]Lokifin 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Maybe a woman whose attractiveness is out of your league is your end goal. That's okay. We all have our dream significant other. But why wait for that NOW? You could have some relationships that would provide you with the intimacy you crave, get some experience with being in a romantic relationship under your belt, and be that much more assured of what you have to offer as a boyfriend/husband.

    Don't limit yourself like that. It breeds resentment.

    [–]creatingreality 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    If she says yes, great! If she says no, then I shrug it off, smile and continue as we were before. In some cases this works fine, and in some cases the person might feel a bit awkward and be slightly more distant - also fine.

    This sounds like a good way to go about things. Since you haven't gotten a "yes", you might want to wait a little bit longer between getting to know someone and asking her out. Good looks and charm get people's attention right away. Being less attractive, yet awesome, it might take awhile for others to see that. And besides, along the way you might find some good female friends you can talk about your day with ... and who might have a friend to introduce you to.

    [–]RelationshipThrow420 -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Since you haven't gotten a "yes", you might want to wait a little bit longer between getting to know someone and asking her

    See, I talk about using this stratagy, and I get told it's "dishonest", and "creepy", and that's what NiceGuys would do. However, I never get mad at her if she says no. It's just that I think for guys that aren't physically attractive, we might have to get to know the girl better, and let the girl know us ugly guys better, before asking them out, for a better chance at acception.

    I honestly feel like for unattractive guys, it's best not to let your intentions known right upfront on meeting someone. But maybe let them get to know you more. I don't see how this strategy is bad at all, but I've gotten bullied and berated by feminists for even THINKING about using this strategy.

    That being said, don't pretend to be the girls' BFF, and buy shit for her. And don't get mad if she rejects you. However, just being a casual friend of a girl and getting her interest that way is nothing.

    [–]creatingreality 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    I've gotten bullied and berated by feminists for even THINKING about using this strategy.

    I'd say the difference is between 1) actually wanting to get to know a woman as well as wanting her to get to know you, or 2) using it as a strategy to get her into bed. The first one is how friendships and potential relationships progress. The second is sleazy.

    [–]RelationshipThrow420 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Everything is not so black and white. It can honestly be a mixture of both. I'd never want to do JUST 2. Because idk why you'd just want to fuck a girl because she's hot. If a girl is good looking that's a plus, but I need to get to know her first.

    I do 1, because I do actually want to get to know her, but in the back of my mind I'm like "Well damn, she's kinda cute too, and I wouldn't mind her wanting to fuck me."

    I'm sure 99% of men get to know women primarily because the former, but just because they're awkward/nerdy/low value and status, feminists automatically assume his intentions are bad even though they don't have a clue about their intentions.

    [–]CaneInvidiaeWhite Knight of the Holy Fempire 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I think the problem is generally when guys get to know women on a friendly basis and then start to believe they're entitled to more (the key word there obviously being entitled). It's the whole friendship in, vagina access out attitude that's a dick move. From what you've written it doesn't sound like you're doing that.

    [–]RelationshipThrow420 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yes, but I've noticed that modern feminists tend to jump to the conclusion that a guy was "entitled" just because he developed some feelings during the friendship and felt hurt when they weren't reciprocated. Just because you're disappointed you didn't get what you wanted, doesn't mean you're entitled.

    [–]CaneInvidiaeWhite Knight of the Holy Fempire 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Disappointment and entitlement are two completely different things. The former is a natural reaction to your feelings for someone not being reciprocated. If someone hates you for having a normal human reaction to anything , they're probably an arsehole. It has absolutely nothing to do with feminism.

    [–]creatingreality 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I get you. I'm a feminist (and a woman) and I don't automatically make the assumption that the guy in the equation is sleazy. However others will react based on their own experiences.

    [–]generallyokwarming myself by the bra bonfire 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    look dude. i mean that sucks and all, but still, in all likelihood? your standards for a romantic partner are too high. cut and dry, if you have never even kissed a woman, that's all there is to it.

    [–]TMC122[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Probably true, thank you.

    [–][deleted] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Most of us don't make fun of incels, we make fun of how they will blame everyone else (specifically, all women) for their problems. You are not doing that, and that's good.

    But all this talk of 'there's someone for everyone' or 'most people aren't shallow at all' or 'there are plenty of ugly guys with beautiful girls'...I think it's bullshit personally.

    Yeah I don't know why people say that. I used to believe that, but it really just isn't true. We are all pretty shallow. I guess people do care about personality, but the problem is that most people won't even take the time to get to know someone of the opposite sex if they aren't attractive. Additionally, nearly everyone our age wants to be with someone who is near or above their level of attractiveness.

    You seem to have a decent personality, plus you are a doctor and you are tall. I don't want to make assumptions, but if you can't get a girlfriend then I'm guessing the problem is that you are aiming too high.

    [–]Micia19 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    The thing about attractiveness is it's so subjective. Me and my old best friend used to have totally different tastes in men, so she'd be like "omg this guy is so sexy" and I'd be like meh. Or I'd be like "wow he's cute" and she'd reply "not really...". I'm seeing attractiveness thrown around a lot in this thread but I just don't think it's as universal as people are making it out to be. So it's more a case finding someone who sees them as attractive instead of thinking that they're unattractive and that's just how it is, because a lot of times it's not even so

    Also I personally think there are quite a few beautiful girls with ugly guys simply because a beautiful girl gets used to all the attention but also worn down by the objectification so they're more likely to give an ugly guy a chance and in doing so find someone who they connect with on a deeper level and that ugly guy becomes attractive to them

    [–][deleted] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Well, yes, to a certain extent types do count for a lot. But imo, if most women rate a man like 2/10, almost no woman will ever find that person attractive. On the other hand, if he's average, an attractive girl may find him attractive because he's her type. For example, my Indian friends find indian guys attractive, though I don't, and most of them would probably find a 6'2 Indian doctor to be their type.

    Besides, I find that a lot of these incels tend to exaggerate how ugly they are.

    [–][deleted] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    But imo, if most women rate a man like 2/10, almost no woman will ever find that person attractive.

    Why is that such a hard idea to understand. Even in this tread there are people saying things like "There must be someone!".

    [–]Micia19 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Besides, I find that a lot of these incels tend to exaggerate how ugly they are.

    That was the core of my point, long winded as I was. There's few truly ugly people out there so just because some people find them unattractive doesn't mean everyone does. And it's not healthy to reinforce that sort of thinking and I'm seeing a lot of "well you're probably just ugly oh well" being thrown about which is not good and helpful I think. Especially when we don't even have pictures to go off of

    [–]girlCtrl-Cgirl interrupt 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    my Indian friends find indian guys attractive, though I don't

    This isn't about attractiveness. This is racism. Which is an issue when dating, but it is not the same issue as attractiveness or "types".

    [–]DeseretRain 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (55子コメント)

    Studies have shown that people almost always end up with people who are similar to their own attractiveness level. As much as people will claim that lots of people aren't shallow, or that attractiveness is so subjective that there's no way to categorize which people are attractive or unattractive, the science simply doesn't bear that out.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matching_hypothesis

    If you're ugly, your options, in reality, are to either go for an ugly woman, or get cosmetic surgery. Personally I see nothing at all wrong with cosmetic surgery, if I felt my ugliness was what was holding me back from getting a partner, I'd definitely get surgery to fix it.

    [–]crazylighterIntelligence is not situated in the crotch 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Dude, being physically attractive means different things to different people- that's why we don't all fall for same type of people. Some people fall for those who are really tall, others don't care. Some like blond hair, red hair, black hair... it's subjective.

    However, that being said "ugly" is also subjective. Does that mean a face marred with pimples, a crooked nose, or broken teeth? Or is his definition of "ugly" just mean he looks like a typical Indian guy? We don't know that.

    It could even be that he gives off a "vibe" that he is unsure of himself that people can detect. We don't know.

    It doesn't mean he has to turn to cosmetic surgery to get a date, it just means he might have to change his expectations, his method of first contact, his conversational abilities, or his lack of confidence... or find people who are attracted to non-white guys yknow?

    It could mean he just needs to step up his make-up skills or his way of dressing, or try a new haircut or something.

    It could even mean he might need to see a person who can give him an outside view of his life and figure out what's holding him back- a life coach.

    My point is- beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you have to completely change your face to find someone or do something really extreme, it doesn't change what is inside of you like insecurity or social awkwardness. You can do subtle things to make yourself look better, but you have to feel confidence in your own skin first.

    [–]PondnymphFoundation and the Fempire 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This is a thing that I have noticed and discussed with several ex boyfriends and my husband, men are just as critical towards their own looks as women. Those men I know saw themselves as unattractive but to me it was never so. All of them were attractive to me despite none of them looking like the typical male ideal because to me, the face is the most important way to communicate. Those little facial expressions we make during conversations reveal the personality, the part that I'm interested in the most. Also every face has it's own thing going on and there's beauty in it, but an ugly personality would make a male model's face repulsive. It all boils down to compatibility between people and if your face isn't conventionally attractive it will serve you to weed out the shallowest of people.

    [–][deleted] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    if your face isn't conventionally attractive it will serve you to weed out the shallowest of people.

    Not "conventionally attractive" does not mean ugly. Ugly means physical attraction is not possible. It's like a height requirement on a theme park ride. If you're tall enough, you're good to go, but if you're too short you only get to hang out with the other kids who are also too short.

    [–]pinko-tankie-scum 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (15子コメント)

    a relationship where a partner views the other as ugly is never going to work. You've got to frame that better if you're going to give life advice

    [–]DeseretRain 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    It's not so much life advice as it is just stating the reality of how the world works and what your options are.

    I know that I'll never get a partner due to being autistic, having multiple treatment resistant mental illnesses, and having a medical condition that prevents me from having any kind of penetrative sex, and being unable to work due to all these conditions. Some people just won't ever find anyone, it's the way it is.

    [–]crazylighterIntelligence is not situated in the crotch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    No, that's not how this world works- that is your perception of how this world works. Your perception of this world is made based on your own experiences, and what you've seen others experience. When you talk about your medical conditions, and stuff like that- that's your perception. That would be perfectly fine if it wasn't for the fact you are giving this guy advice.

    You are "projecting" your issues onto him and assuming he's just like you.

    He doesn't need to find another "ugly person" or be alone- he needs better self esteem. The way he talks about himself is like he's beating himself up, that's insecurity. A lot of attractiveness has to do with self-esteem and confidence which is something he can work on.

    [–]DeseretRain 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Well it's more based on actual scientific studies, which I posted a link to, than it is perception.

    [–]Paradigmist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The problem is that you're condensing these sociological studies, which evaluate overarching societal trends of millions (if not billions) of people, and trying to apply these sweeping conclusions to a single person (OP). The existence of these trends does not necessitate that OP has to conform to them.

    You're also affirming the consequent:

    > OP is single person who refuses to date ugly people

    > Ugly people are more likely to date ugly people
    >> Corollary: Ugly people who refuse to date ugly people are more likely to be single

    >Conclusion: OP is ugly, and should lower his standards if he wants to succeed.

    But, as /u/crazylighter points out, ugliness is not an objective metric, especially when people are evaluating themselves. A lot of it has to do with self-esteem and confidence. By pointing at these studies, you're basically invalidating OP as nothing more than a statistic -- completely ignoring the possibility that a combination of discipline, confidence, and possibly counseling could help address his issues, in favor of "statistically, your odds are better if you lower your standards". The problem is that lowering his standards might not actually address the core personal issues that OP is struggling with, and may in fact make things worse.

    [–]crazylighterIntelligence is not situated in the crotch -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Wikipedia is not a good source of information... you should actually read the studies that you link to first to see how strong the evidence is, what type of study and if the study design is actually well designed... if not, it's as worthless as that okcupid study that claims only 20% of men get dates or something.

    [–][deleted] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (35子コメント)

    ...and there are people who can't be helped, even with plastic surgery.

    [–]DeseretRain 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (34子コメント)

    In that case their choices would be going for an ugly person or being alone. It's not fair, but like the OP said, the world isn't fair.

    [–]DatToolbox 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I got here a bit late but, dude you seem like an alright guy. Being single really can suck. I've been there.

    Whatever you do, don't listen to that redpill nonsense. I tried similar stuff at one point and really, the best piece of advice they could give me was "be confident in yourself and ask out girls, they might like you too."

    Here's some advice:

    • You can get to know someone on a date, ie. after you ask them out. So sometimes, it's best to just ask them out if you like them.

    • Plenty of dates will not go that great. They may not live up to your expectations, and you may not live up to theirs.

    • People will reject you a fair bit, but if you never try, you'll never know.

    • There is nothing wrong with female friends.

    • Asking out female friends can be done without ruining the friendship at all. If you are polite about it and take rejection well.

    • Whether or not someone likes you is the probably most important thing in determining whether they say yes to any advances (unless you're creepy or something). You can't control this. You can do everything in your power to put your best foot forward, but really it's up to them. Therefore, if they reject you it's not a judgement on you as a person.

    • Be polite.

    • If you like someone's personality enough, their looks aren't actually that important, unless they're really off-putting.

    [–]TMC122[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thanks for the reply!

    You can get to know someone on a date, ie. after you ask them out. So sometimes, it's best to just ask them out if you like them.

    My success rate is 0% asking out girls I like early on, and 0% after a while of knowing them. But I guess it's worth a try.

    Plenty of dates will not go that great. They may not live up to your expectations, and you may not live up to theirs.

    That's ok, I just need to get one first!

    People will reject you a fair bit, but if you never try, you'll never know.

    Very true. It's just hard sometimes to keep trying, since it's like playing 'double or nothing' with the emotional hit you take. Your first rejection is a bit of a blow, but you try again because when you get a 'yes' it makes the rejections worth it. Only, you keep getting rejections and the emotional hit keeps doubling up.

    Asking out female friends can be done without ruining the friendship at all. If you are polite about it and take rejection well.

    I think this is true, but another reply here disagrees with us on this and thinks it violates the image of friendship she had in her mind.

    If you like someone's personality enough, their looks aren't actually that important, unless they're really off-putting.

    I don't think i'm that off-putting. Actually, I think some of the women I've asked out considered saying yes because they like me as a person, but they know they can do better in the looks department. After all, everyone cares a little about their ego and it's not wrong for them to want to show up to that dinner or that function with a guy on their arm who'll make all their girlfriends a bit jealous.

    [–]crazylighterIntelligence is not situated in the crotch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    For the friendship with girl thing- if you like one of your female friends, its all about how you ask them out, why you ask them out and your original intentions of being friends with them and handling the aftermath. I'll try to explain as best as I can:

    • Your original intention of being friends: do you become friends with the girl hoping that if you are nice to her she will see you as a good boyfriend? Did you become friends with her hoping that you will eventually have sex with her? If yes, that's called being a Nice Guy- you just were nice to her because you felt entitled to having sex with her. If you answered no the first two questions, then you probably met with her the true intention of being friends, nothing more. A good litmus test to see if your friendship was genuine is: if you asked your friend out and she rejected you, would you remain friends with her because you value your friendship? If the answer is yes, then you became friends because you wanted to just be friends.

    • Why you ask them out: As you've passed the friend test, the next assessment you need to make is "why am I asking them out?" As you are good friends, that means you probably care for them as a person, you want them to have a good life and you are genuinely concerned for their well-being. Asking them out right after their boyfriend dumped them, wanting to just have sex with them despite them having a boyfriend or date... those are not good things friends do. Your reason for asking them out should be because you realized you like them as more than a friend, you are attracted to their looks and personality, and want to spend time with them more than friends would.

    • How you ask them out: This one is a little trickier as it's really down to the person but there's a right way and a wrong way to do this. Do you keep doing nice things for them hoping they will figure out your love for them? Bad idea. Do you keep messaging them over and over again despite them saying they need a break? Bad idea. Do you ask a friend of a friend to ask them? Bad idea. Basically, you need to be truthful about your feelings, you can't expect them to figure out cryptic clues.

    • What happens if she rejects your advances? If she says she's not interested in you the same way as you feel for her, do you keep trying to change her mind? Do you take no for an answer? Do you slander her name amongst her friends? Do you end your friendship and never speak to her again? As you care for her as also a good friend, it should hopefully be amiable when rejection occurs. You might need a smaller break from the friendship, but you remain friends instead of being a creepy stalker who sends messages to her, sends her flowers and gifts and refuses to stop after rejection.

    I hope that helps with the friendship-love thing. Reality is different from the "romance" movies you see where the persistent nerd guy gets the girl after never giving up, doing nice things for her and pulling stupid criminal offences.

    [–]crazylighterIntelligence is not situated in the crotch 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Additionally, you know how you said you felt your face was "ugly"- how would you feel about experimenting with make-up? There is now "manly make-up" on the market that can help tone your face, face moisturizer, fix up your eye brows, some face washes that can help with acne or rough skin, make up to put in the dark circle around your eyes, even stuff to bring attention to your eye lashes and eyes. If you aren't sure what to do, there are those cosmeticians on staff at many stores who can help pick out what is best for your face to bring out your features.

    Even simple things like a hair cut, new beard/ shaving style or hat can really bring out your personality and show your inner confidence.

    When you feel more confident about your appearance it can really bring up your confidence and make you feel more comfortable walking around. Not just to meet women, but to feel better about yourself.

    You keep bringing yourself down but keep your chin up!

    [–]blooperthrowaway 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Made a throwaway just for this; I don't usually post on reddit.

    WTF is up with the below commenters (mostly /u/DeseretRain and /u/eekkgg); it's a warped version of the way this place usually is. It seems like some alternate reality.

    First off, sir TMC, one of my favorite things about this subreddit is how it mocks the--how should I say--technocratic nature of TRP. Now, as some others have already made clear, this is only a place of satire. But just hearing the way you describe yourself (not high enough quality? WTF is that supposed to even mean? like evolutionarily? are we talking social darwinism? sex appeal? in terms of being a good chess player? quality social skills? and before you say 'overall', there is no overall, objective scale you can place people on; in fact, there is very little objective anything, but that's for another time...) You have abs but not really, you're Indian, you have a good job... can you tell me something about your personality? Who you are? The earlier doesn't define you... You are falling into the trap of objective, quantifiable bullshit, as if the world runs on such things, but with love/intimacy--which is what you purportedly crave--it doesn't.

    I have NO FUCKING IDEA why you're taking the advice of 'love yourself before anyone else' with a grain of salt... from this post it is highly evident that you need to try it the fuck out. When someone says they are romantically unsuccessful because they aren't 'high quality enough' it is not a fucking indicator of self-love.

    I LOVE YOU! Aight? It is enough for you to just be.

    You keep saying 'I'm a few steps beyond the basement dweller'; physically, sure, but again you are disregarding the emotional state that that implies. When BPers say that, they are not necessarily saying it literally; many terpers they deride with that aren't actually basement dwellers. They just have the entailing mentality--living a fantasy, in their own warped perception of the world, not engaging with the emotional reality of things/people. That last one, I think, is something you need to deal with. Have you ever considered that the women you became friends with genuinely wanted to be friends the whole time--because that's what you made it seem, that's the emotional ground YOU set forth--and felt it was violated afterwards?

    That's why you don't understand that it's fucked to start a friendship which you meant to progress to a romantic relationship the whole time because the friendship is emotionally dishonest and fake, a means to an end; HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP BASED ON THAT SHITTY FOUNDATION?

    Consider, for a moment, that you make a friend, just to have a friend, not a romantic partnership, with a woman. You'll be surprised at what could come of it.

    You are defining yourself in terms of sexiness/ugliness (have no idea how someone deems their own face as ugly) and income/job/status. This is not as important for actual intimacy as personality/emotional sensitivity/emotional strength/empathy. You're 'tall, fit, healthy, well-educated'; you need to understand that anyone who loves you doesn't really give a fuck, they love you anyways. You need to feel the same.

    Please disregard most of the above/below ridiculousness and take that to heart.

    [–]crazylighterIntelligence is not situated in the crotch 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Two of the three who are saying stupid stuff are from foreveralone/ true cel subreddits, they heard the calling card and came running to find another one of their kind. The third is an anti-feminist red piller who lacks empathy and lost hope on this one ever becoming an alpha.

    [–]blooperthrowaway 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    ohhh ok, makes more sense

    [–]crazylighterIntelligence is not situated in the crotch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Just look at their comment histories, it paints a sad picture. The reason that they are writing the pathetic things they are saying is because they themselves feel this way about themselves aka "projecting". 2 of the 3 have very low self-esteem and the other I recognize from the red pill and hates women. They saw the title of "truecel" and came running to recruit him or draw him in. Or even to defend themselves as they are so insecure in their "truecel" identity.

    [–][deleted] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Dude, I posted one comment on trucel, in a thread I found in a meta sub, and was banned in 5 minutes. I'm not active on any incel/FA community.

    [–]crazylighterIntelligence is not situated in the crotch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Then you just have low self esteem or really poor outlooks on life that you are projecting onto OP. You are basically saying "OP, you aren't worth anything since you are ugly so either you have to date another ugly person or die okay?" Which is completely false. That's not how this works or how anything works. I don't know how you found this community but you really aren't a good source of advice for this guy.

    [–]TMC122[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Have you ever considered that the women you became friends with genuinely wanted to be friends the whole time--because that's what you made it seem, that's the emotional ground YOU set forth--and felt it was violated afterwards?

    With regards to this, I have absolutely considered it, but I don't see what the alternative is. An attractive guy who turns heads can ask a girl out after knowing her for a short space of time, and then get to know her personality in the process of dating. The same process wouldn't work for me, so I need to showcase my personality (my most attractive trait) over time in order to hopefully have a good chance of landing a date.

    That's why you don't understand that it's fucked to start a friendship which you meant to progress to a romantic relationship the whole time because the friendship is emotionally dishonest and fake, a means to an end;

    I never mean to progress anything to a relationship automatically. If I meet an attractive girl and start getting to know her over time and find out she has a rotten personality, i'm not interested in anything further. And like I said, if I ask a girl out and she says no, she might wonder if the entire time i've been friendly just for ulterior motives but I try to be exactly the same as before so she knows I do still care about our friendship. What else am I supposed to do?

    You are defining yourself in terms of sexiness/ugliness (have no idea how someone deems their own face as ugly)

    Objectivity

    and income/job/status. This is not as important for actual intimacy as personality/emotional sensitivity/emotional strength/empathy. You're 'tall, fit, healthy, well-educated'; you need to understand that anyone who loves you doesn't really give a fuck, they love you anyways. You need to feel the same.

    I'm trying to appreciate what you're saying, friend, but how can I when I really don't understand what 'love' even is? And I don't think emotional sensitivity and strength are what makes them attractive (in the short term - long term obviously yes). Looking like Brad Pitt makes you attractive.

    [–]neostoic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Dude, you're a fucking doctor. Early 20-s is a notoriously hard period for doctors. Women generally prefer men who have their life figured out, and when you're a student and especially a medic, you're just not there yet. You can think of this as a male version of TRP's The Wall. Only that you eventually break through it. Now that you're finished or almost finished with eduction, you can just go to any party and say "oh, me? I'm just saving children from cancer" for automatic female attention. With this in mind, the hardest thing is actually finding time and energy to get to that party.

    [–]TMC122[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I graduated from medical school 3 years ago, so I am finished with education. I don't do what I do for a living to boast about it at parties, and even if I did, i'm not sure it would suddenly have women throwing their phone numbers at me. That's more movie territory, perhaps.

    [–]neostoic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    "Oh, me? I'm just saving children from cancer. No, I'm not doing it to boast about it at parties, I just like saving children from cancer, it's just the kind of guy I am".

    Look, in your post you've told who you are, how you feel, but there's nothing on effort you put into dating. To like you somebody has to meet you somewhere first.

    [–]TMC122[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Well, i've tried Tinder. I've tried speed dating. I've asked my female friends to introduce me to anyone they might know. I've met plenty of people through work and hobbies and not been shy when it comes to asking some of those people out. Meeting people isn't really the issue I think.

    [–][deleted] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I get the feeling that you divide women into extremes based on physical attractiveness. You talk about "10/10 supermodel" and "morbidly obese lady with a rather unpleasant odour." These are opposite ends of a spectrum. The vast majority of women (and men) are somewhere in the middle.

    Is it possible that attainable women are invisible to you? This is a pretty common problem for twenty-something men.

    BTW, I didn't kiss a woman until I was 25. I was dimly aware of communities like /r/foreveralone and the like, but I unconsciously avoided them. Now I'm 27 and in a great relationship, and I think that avoiding these communities helped me a lot. They are not healthy places. They encourage unproductive behavior and dysfunctional views of gender (and the world).

    [–]RelationshipThrow420 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm the same way. I'm 26 years old, never had PIV sex. I've made out at parties a couple of times, and even got a few drunken BJs, but that's about it.

    I've never been in a relationship. I'm not sure if I'd date myself or not because I'm not a dude. I'm ugly, but not fugly, so I think I'm able to get a cute girl if I wanted to. The thing is, I'm very socially awkward. I'm too shy/afraid of love. I don't know why that is, it's just that I love the idea of love, but I just never understood why the idea of having someone reciprocate feelings scare me. I feel like I subconsciously think I'm unworthy.

    That being said, I do browse /r/truecels and the like whenever I'm bored. I don't agree with what they say, but I understand their pain.

    [–]Wonka_VisionA slave to biological imperatives 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Not super related, but are you a pediatric oncologist?

    [–]TMC122[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm an oncologist, and since my area of research is mostly focused in childhood cancer, I took a job as a paediatric oncologist.

    [–]jaco1001 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    You have a great career, you have hobbies, you're in shape, and you write well. I know the never ending rejection is hard, it can be so crushing, but I believe if you keep putting yourself out there that you can and will find someone.

    [–]TMC122[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thank you, I hope so too! And I suppose if I don't, it's not the end of the world at all. Technology nowadays makes it so that there's an endless amount of things to do and occupy your time with. I think over time, it's probably possible to get over the loneliness too.

    [–]Kakanian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I'm going to be frank and tell you that if you feel that the pressure from your job's taking a toll on you, you should ask another professional to introduce you to coping strategies. Any potential mate, even if they're from the field, isn't going to pick you up the better to deal with your stressors for you but because they like you.

    There's a huge corpus of legends around how fundamentally, heterosexual partnerships are meant for women to heal and integrate men into society via their vagina powers, but it's just that - a legend. By your own admission you're doing really well already, so you should have the resources to find solutions to your remaining issues that don't bank on old tall tales being true.

    [–]TMC122[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Oh, sorry, I didn't mean it like I was stressed and not coping at work! I really love my job, I was just using a hypothetical example to demonstrate an ideal relationship where both partners can be completely honest and open with one another and help each other with stuff. Y'know, your typical loving partnership.

    [–]Kakanian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Are you just... trying to find some way to experience being stereotypically in love?

    [–]TMC122[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Is that a bad thing?

    [–]Kakanian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No it's just... well, frankly, you can be 100% legit Stendhal-style in love with all the baroque Aria bells and whistles about taking your spot at the river Lethe cuz it hurts so good and so bad without reciprocation. It's a state you put yourself into, first and foremost, not something somebody grants you, so there's no point in treating it like a leveling achievement you're locked out of because autogen picked a single wrong option for you during character creation.

    You can also get all of that of support from other people without either of you feeling love and all the people not getting any sex are a large and diverse group, one that's certainly not exculsive to the ugly and/or unsocial alone.

    [–]EradiKateLevel Up! EradiKate now has Capybara! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm sorry, because what I'm about to say isn't comforting: you can do everything right, and still fail. You say you see unfairness all around you, and that's exactly what this is. I don't know why this happens and I'm sorry that I can't offer you more support.

    The important thing is to keep doing the right thing, and it sounds like you're doing exactly that.

    [–]13blues13moons 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think that like, honestly finding lasting love is really difficult. When we look at other couples we only see the success a lot of the time. There is a lot of pressure to couple up placed upon singles, and that goes for whatever gender you are. Maybe it's capitalism, maybe not. Still, the world unfortunately doesn't owe you true love. I personally believe that you will feel a lot better thinking "hey what would be the best version of my life if I never do find love?" and working toward that. Because often it is our own self acceptance that we want the most. Plus, I doubt your life is loveless ( and if it is maybe you should adopt a puppy). If you lose your expectations you'll be surprised at what you'll find. Little bits of love here and there, or a lot from a close friend. Why is romantic love the most valuable of all? I don't think it should be.

    Really though, if you learn to love you, you will be loads happier than following this stupid redpill thing. I promise.

    [–]The-Battletoad 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Look man, you gotta go for ugly girls. If you are as ugly as you say, you have to find someone who is similarly on the ugly to hot scale to you. I'm not talking about a morbidly obese girl with an unpleasant odor, there are plenty of girls in good physical shape who are smart with great personalities but unfortunate faces. Like me, I have an athlete's body but a masculine, scarred up face and terrible posture. You sound like you have a pleasant personality and a lot going for you as well. Have you considered branching out to those types?

    [–]cynzia -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    serious question: If you are Indian, can you not participate in an arranged marriage? The chances of an arranged marriage being happy are just as good (or bad) as an "love" match.

    [–]Paradigmist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Ehhhh.

    I'm going to assume that OP is Indian-British, probably first-generation? That is to say, he probably wasn't born and raised in India.

    Arranged marriages are mostly a thing in India, and even there they're starting to decline in frequency as major population centers like Mumbai become increasingly cosmopolitan and younger generations become increasingly exposed to Western culture and traditions. Arranged marriages totally happen among immigrant families to first-world nations like the US and the UK, but they're not nearly as common -- presumably both because most first-generation Indian-Americans or Indian-Britons will grow up surrounded by Western culture, and because parents that immigrate to places like the US tend to be skilled professionals traveling with H1Bs, not a random and representative sample of all Indian citizens.

    The upshot of all of this is that many first-generation Indian immigrants aren't really the type to get arranged marriages. They might grow up eating Indian food, they probably have a bunch of Indian family friends, they probably even visit India somewhat regularly. But more than a few of them consider arranged marriages foreign and archaic -- and plenty of them would think it stereotyping to be asked "what about arranged marriages" simply because they're Indian. I know if I told my parents I wanted an arranged marriage, they'd probably laugh and tell me to try online dating or something.

    TL;DR: OP's Indian heritage doesn't necessarily make him culturally Indian. Many first-generation Indian immigrants find arranged marriages as distasteful and archaic as the rest of the Western world does.

    [–]TMC122[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Correct, thank you. I suppose I could get an arranged marriage in theory, but it would feel like i've been handed what i'm looking for on a silver platter with no effort on my part. I'd rather find it on my own terms on my own merit as a man.

    [–]PorgiAmorChad is my Copilot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I suppose I could get an arranged marriage in theory, but it would feel like i've been handed what i'm looking for on a silver platter with no effort on my part.

    Look, that's not how the happy arranged marriages I've seen have worked. In the good ones I've seen, the couple's family had gotten a list of candidates for their kids to see pictures of, then arrange meetings with. But if you went this route, you still would do the choosing. In the happy arranged marriages I've seen, the parents basically just helped their son/daughter by identifying and facilitating meetings with compatible singles who were ready to marry. But if you went a similar way, you still have to convince the lady or ladies whom you courted and whom you feel a connection to and a chemistry with to marry you in the end. So yeah, you DO have to do an important part of the work!

    Basically it's old-fashioned courting and matchmaking, something that used to be common even in the Anglo world, but that sadly is no longer. This is where you should embrace your culture and heritage, IMHO, because I truly believe it is in fact superior to the Anglo world's "every man for himself" haphazard dating.

    Google some stats if you don't believe me. You're just as likely to come out of a matchmade/arranged marriage as happy, or happier, in a non-arranged one.

    [–]Paradigmist -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Fuck. That.

    Arranged marriages aren't for everyone. They also aren't easy to justify mentally for someone that hasn't grown up in a culture that normalizes it, who's had friends that have done it and parents that expect it.

    OP doesn't want an arranged marriage. Respect that.

    [–]PorgiAmorChad is my Copilot -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Serious question for OP, given that you are ethnically Indian: have you tried asking your family for help in meeting girls or even helping to arrange a marriage?

    I work and have worked with many, many Indian people (I work in IT in a major metro area) and a good chunk of them, both those born here and born back in India, have done the arranged-marriage thing. There are exceptions, of course, but the majority seem to have gone through the formal matchmaking process that involves their families (and especially mom's) involvement.

    The way they do it seems OK to me -- the singles still get to choose who they like but they get their families to arrange the introductions of similar age and professional-level potential matches.

    From what I have seen of these marriages, they appear to be no less happy than marriages done the normal "American" way. I have also read that these types of arranged (but not forced) marriages typically do well as non-matchmade marriages, or even better, in terms of marital happiness and divorce risk.

    [–]Paradigmist -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Reposting myself from another identical comment about arranged marriage:

    Ehhhh. I'm going to assume that OP is Indian-British, probably first-generation? That is to say, he probably wasn't born and raised in India.

    Arranged marriages are mostly a thing in India, and even there they're starting to decline in frequency as major population centers like Mumbai become increasingly cosmopolitan and younger generations become increasingly exposed to Western culture and traditions. Arranged marriages totally happen among immigrant families to first-world nations like the US and the UK, but they're not nearly as common -- presumably both because most first-generation Indian-Americans or Indian-Britons will grow up surrounded by Western culture, and because parents that immigrate to places like the US tend to be skilled professionals traveling with H1Bs, not a random and representative sample of all Indian citizens.

    The upshot of all of this is that many first-generation Indian immigrants aren't really the type to get arranged marriages. They might grow up eating Indian food, they probably have a bunch of Indian family friends, they probably even visit India somewhat regularly. But more than a few of them consider arranged marriages foreign and archaic -- and plenty of them would think it stereotyping to be asked "what about arranged marriages" simply because they're Indian. I know if I told my parents I wanted an arranged marriage, they'd probably laugh and tell me to try online dating or something.

    TL;DR: OP's Indian heritage doesn't necessarily make him culturally Indian. Many first-generation Indian immigrants find arranged marriages as distasteful and archaic as the rest of the Western world does.

    And OP's own response:

    Correct, thank you. I suppose I could get an arranged marriage in theory, but it would feel like i've been handed what i'm looking for on a silver platter with no effort on my part. I'd rather find it on my own terms on my own merit as a man.

    [–]PorgiAmorChad is my Copilot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Many first-generation Indian immigrants find arranged marriages as distasteful and archaic as the rest of the Western world does.

    That hasn't been my experience at all, having spent decades working in close proximity to many first-gen ethnic US-born Indians, as well as immigrants. And they were all, in your words,

    skilled professionals

    They married other professionals, like doctors and dentists and IT programmers and investment bankers and engineers. I'd say about 75% went the arranged marriage route.

    Many first-generation Indian immigrants find arranged marriages as distasteful and archaic as the rest of the Western world does.

    And this is where traditional India is actually ahead of the West. American author Lori Gottlieb, in her book Marry Him, did research and found that Indian couples with arranged marriages in the US and in India had a better overall success rate and happiness rate than non-arranged marriages. I have to say, I myself had the typical American prejudice against arranged marriages until I worked with so many people who were a part of them, and saw for myself how good many of them turned out to be.

    I'm not talking about the type of arranged marriages wherein the B&G's parents arrange it without the B&G ever meeting before the wedding. I mean the type where the parents basically do matchmaking and bring singles together whose families they approve of, but where the B&G end up picking each other out of a batch of suitable candidates. Kinda like old-fashioned European courtships.

    [–]Paradigmist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, and in my experience being an actual Indian-American growing up in the most Indian-dominated region in the US, you're seeing what you want to see. I'm not denying that arranged marriages don't happen in the US. I'm not saying that arranged marriages in the US are like arranged marriages in India. I'm not even saying that people in arranged marriages tend to be unhappy (in fact, India's record-low divorce rate has increased substantially as rates of arranged marriages in the younger generation have dropped).

    What I am saying is that not only do many first-generation Indian-Americans find arranged marriages distasteful, it is absolutely stereotyping for you to suggest that to an Indian-American without knowing their thoughts on the matter or their specific family situation. OP even stated that they would rather not pursue arranged marriages, because they would consider it impersonal and a failing on their behalf to have someone else set up a marriage for them. Respect that.

    You are completely misunderstanding my problems with your original post. I'm not complaining that you're suggesting an arranged marriage because I think they're inherently bad or because they don't work. I'm frustrated because it's stereotyping, it's presumptuous, and yeah, it's a little bit condescending for you to suggest that an Indian person get an arranged marriage without knowing a single thing about their personal family life, just because they're Indian. The fact that you're actually trying to back yourself up with "I've known lots of Indians" also isn't doing you any favors.

    [–]KaliYugazKamikaze shields the Japanese islands from Julien Blanc 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I mean the type where the parents basically do matchmaking and bring singles together whose families they approve of, but where the B&G end up picking each other out of a batch of suitable candidates.

    I think you're overemphasizing the differences between this and Western love marriages. If you think about it, Westerners (at least the Western professional classes, it's different for poor people) technically do the same thing but in reverse; the couple finds each other first, and then they introduce each other to their parents. For a prudent couple, parental disapproval and potential family strife would generally be a good reason not to get married.

    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]TMC122[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I can PM you proof, but clearly you've already made your mind up. Maybe that's how things are in the USA where private healthcare means doctors earn hundreds of thousands, but here in the UK I earn less per hour than fast food workers.

      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

      [removed]

        [–]wolololololo2chill all men 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        why even bother posting here you cunt