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It's about the ethics of punching neo-nazis in the face in/r/PublicFreakout (self.SubredditDrama)

bumblebeatrice が 投稿

https://np.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/5p7lht/man_sucker_punched_by_anti_trump_rioter_while/dcp3ghz/?context=1

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[–]totalarkwar [スコア非表示]  (33子コメント)

Probably felt pretty good for the guy doing the punching, but it paints their movement in a bad light. These are the incidents that change protesters to rioters in headlines. The use of violence instantly discredits whatever organization the perpetrator belongs to. It's like these people didn't see the bump Trump got after his supporters were attacked.

[–]sososteel [スコア非表示]  (25子コメント)

I'd rather they make neo Nazis scared to do anything and irritate some self-righteous liberals than allow neo Nazis to organise and act facing no threats at all.

My area was a very dangerous place to be for PoC and LGBTQ+ people because of facist gangs, it was the acts of Anti Facist organisations (both non-violent and violent) in the 90's that made me able to walk the streets in relative safety.

Sadly, a new generation of them have been getting active again the last few years - a lot of the local queers, myself included, have been yelled at, chased, and beaten up. PoC and foreign people have been followed, yelled at, told to go home, and threatened with weapons - one was a victim of an acid attack, another beaten to death.

More and more of them are getting their red laces, and it'll continue unless they're violently suppressed. The cops, for various reasons, aren't helping. It's down to local people to reform AntiFa orgs and protect people through a variety of tactics.

[–]WholeLottaToughLove [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

it was the acts of Anti Facist organisations (both non-violent and violent) in the 90's that made me able to walk the streets in relative safety.

Granted, I haven't lived in your area, but I'm almost certain that the increase in safety was not a result of anti-fascists winning the war for the streets, but of people simply stopping giving a shit due to an improved economic situation.

[–]Vried [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I have nae idea, to the point of not even knowing where you reference, but here's my take on it

Jog on.

[–]WholeLottaToughLove [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The laws of violence are universal.
You can't increase safety by escalating the conflict with your enemy unless you manage to eradicate them, so unless those fascist gangs were killed off, I think it's safe to say that the activity of the anti-fascist organizations was entirely secondary to the change of Zeitgeist and the shift in demographics.

[–]BrokenBuckets [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

... Yes fascists often back down when threatened with violence. It's not the basis of their entire ideology and their largest recruiting tool.

"You and your way of life is under attack by X. We can protect you." isn't the motto of pretty much every fascist movement in history and attacking them certainly doesn't feed into that idea.

I think I've gone a bit overboard with the sarcasm but you get the point.

[–]sososteel [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

The fact they've reached this level where they can use recruiting tools in any meaningful way shows they've been allowed far too much freedom.

Every org must be infiltrated, every website brought down, every marching "battalion" driven away. Perhaps, if you don't live in an area where you're under imminent threat of being attacked by Nazis whenever you go shopping, it can be easy to fool yourself into thinking they can be defeated any other way.

They cannot. A multi faceted strategy is obviously necessary - educating the masses, attempting to reform new/young neo Nazis, etc, are definitely necessary too. Im not saying it's all about sucker punches. But denying violence has its place it naive.

Will it leave some people with a sour taste in their mouth, and play into neo Nazis absurd persecution complex? Undoubtedly, yes. But it will also protect the more oppressed people in our society, and that is of incredible and immediate importance. We can undo what small damage it does with said other methods.

I can see where you're coming from, but having seen the efficacy of violence first hand and studied other examples of facist activity and insurrections, I'm confident that violence does have a place in modern day USA antifa action.

[–]SnikkRottDa Waaaagh Cuck [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

Implying fascists won't hurt you as long as you don't act violently. Or that they wouldn't be able to recruit people to their cause if they didn't have any evidence to support their fear-mongering rhetoric.

[–]BrokenBuckets [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

Implying fascists won't hurt you as long as you don't act violently.

And when they do violent shit you press charges and they look bad and you look right. When you attack them when their talking peacefully on the street all you do is strengthen their convictions and make yourself the bad guy.

Or that they wouldn't be able to recruit people to their cause if they didn't have any evidence to support their fear-mongering rhetoric.

Less people certainly.

[–]SnikkRottDa Waaaagh Cuck [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

And when they do violent shit you press charges and they look bad and you look right. When you attack them when their talking peacefully on the street all you do is strengthen their convictions and make yourself the bad guy.

Has pressing charges ever worked in deterring fascists from hurting other people? Also it can be difficult to be able to press charges if you're randomly attacked on the street by an individual or group set on doing you harm. Plus I somehow think that looking like the bad guy isn't exactly something they're worried about.

[–]PointNShooty [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Has pressing charges ever worked in deterring fascists from hurting other people?

Uhhh, yeah. All the time. Same reason it deters communists, PETA, gang members, and literally everybody else in society from being violent.

[–]SnikkRottDa Waaaagh Cuck [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

What are you talking about? PETA and gang members use violence all the time. Has there even been any violent crimes featuring communists in the US lately?

[–]PointNShooty [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I didn't claim that laws against violence would completely eliminate violence from humanity. I said it would deter people from being violent. Going to jail is a really big deterrent.

[–]Miedzymorze21 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah man, pressing charges against Hitler really worked out for the Weimar Republic

[–]Zeal0tElite[Gender War] - 16 votes, 187 comments [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

What about when their "violent shit" is completely legal?

[–]BrokenBuckets [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Errr, has that happened yet?

[–]Zeal0tElite[Gender War] - 16 votes, 187 comments [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Literally millions of times throughout history.

It's hard to say "let's just take this to a court of law" when the law is that you're subhuman. Just 37 years ago it was illegal to have same sex sexual activity in my country.

Either you're lucky enough to have popular opinion behind you or you're fucked. When things like "LGBT" just disappear from whitehouse.gov people have a reason to feel like they're being threatened.

[–]PointNShooty [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Just 37 years ago it was illegal to have same sex sexual activity in my country.

Are you even 37?

No one's defending Nazi Germany or other fascist governments. But we don't live in one here in America. People have rights.

When things like "LGBT" just disappear from whitehouse.gov people have a reason to feel like they're being threatened.

"Border security" also just disappeared from whitehouse.gov. Are you concerned about our borders now?

[–]Zeal0tElite[Gender War] - 16 votes, 187 comments [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Not sure why I'd have to be 37 to not want certain categories of people seen as lesser than others.

Also you can type in "borders" in to whitehouse.gov and get this and this which clearly states what they want out of border control. Not having any sort of page for marginalised minorities, especially when the VP is Mike Pence, is a worry.

[–]Miedzymorze21 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Attacking them worked out for saving Germany.

[–]BrokenBuckets [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

When they were in power sure, I'm not talking about when they're in power I'm saying violence is a ineffective way to stop them gaining power.

Trump undeniably got the Nazi vote, and is the closest thing you've had in years, but he isn't a Nazi.

[–]DblackRabbitSTAY WOKE, slivers creeping [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What about the lack of dip for all the violence against protester from Trump supporters at his rally? Should that and the fact that somehow being a literal neo nazi and not being a neo nazi are somehow close enough in validity for this the instantly discredit the movement.

[–]SnikkRottDa Waaaagh Cuck [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Isn't Trump going into his presidency with the lowest approval rating of any US president?

[–]Vried [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

32%. For context Paul Blart: Mall Cop has 33% approval rating (albeit on Rotten Tomatoes).

[–]Gaelfling [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

More importantly, Monster Trucks, a movie plot created by a child has higher ratings than Trump.

[–]EquatiusGlacierstein [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Violence doesn't discredit the Nazis to their supporters. And we've now got white supremacists whispering in the President's ear. The only thing protecting people now is the Nazi's own cowardice about facing violence themselves for once.

[–]Choppa790PokemonGo Outside [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

you know what movement should be painted in a bad light, the one trying to revive national socialism.

[–]firstconsul [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

how many people would be bitching if this was some pro-isis muslim american saying we need to ethnically cleanse peacefully all non-muslims? Im sure there would be few tears. I would be just as happy if someone punched that fucker in the face too.

[–]HauntedFurniture [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Schadenfreude from seeing Richard Spencer getting punched aside, there is a disconnect here between moralism and political pragmatism. Assaulting a public figure, even a neo-Nazi, will generate sympathy for that figure and ultimately hurt the progressive cause.

[–]powerkick [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It doesn't matter. The rules already don't apply. People are swayed by non-facts and elected Donald Trump, mostly, because what he had to say to some degree made these people cum.

For the last two years we thought all we had to do was just...let people see what Trump said. They decided they didn't see it. So Trump gets elected. Instead of simply...seeing...that literal actual Nazi Steve Bannon is put on Trump's Cabinet, they just didn't do the homework and listened to what Trump said rather than watch what Trump did.

At the end of the day, we are supposed to cater to the delicate sensibilities of people who want to abuse intellectual honesty and genuineness in order normalize fascism, racism, etc.

We ALREADY wanted them fed, clothed, safe, etc. They spat in our faces. They assaulted a 15 year-old girl I know because that's presidential, executive behavior. And they told her exactly that.

So I think it's safe to stop being intellectually honest with these people as they aren't being intellectually honest with themselves and have been stooping to Bundy terrorism for a long time now and have been getting away with it in much the same way.

They already HAVE the sympathy. They also now have the power. Punch or no punch, these people had wrong thoughts about us from day one.

Being nice to these people wasn't going to get me the right to marry a man or donate blood or adopt a child.

[–]hellomondays/r/whiterice [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I think the people who would be swayed by Richard Spencer's message would not be keen on the progressive cause in the first place

[–]PointNShooty [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Except that one of the main rallying points of fascists in the 21st century is that "whites are under attack! Join my organization so we can defend ourselves!"

By attacking whoever's saying that, you're only giving credence to his point.

[–]HauntedFurniture [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It would still be wise not to give him any advantage (or oneself any disadvantage) in the 'court of public opinion', which is an unfortunate but necessary consideration for any political group. If nothing else, public sympathy might make it easier for him to disseminate his message.

[–]chaobreakerWhy are you reading this? There's nothing here. [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I mean, if all it takes for someone to sympathize with an actual honest-to-god neo-nazi is to see them on the ground with a bloody nose, then they're way too far gone to convince otherwise.

[–]Felinomancy [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

First, it's wrong to punch someone. A society of law should not take matters into their own hands.

Second, I'm not upset that a Neo-Nazi is punched. I neither condone nor feel bad for him.

Third, philosophically, if your ideology is "you are subhuman and should be removed from society", then if someone agrees with you, but thinks you are the subhuman one.. well, isn't what's good for the goose is also good for the gander?

Fourth, technically, I suppose people might sympathize him being punched. Although if you're flocking under his banner because he's punched, I doubt you're much a moral person to start with.

And finally, do we have really filthy racists in this thread. I'm sure there are many decent, moral Trump supporters, but damn if I ever found one on reddit.

[–]PointNShooty [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Third, philosophically, if your ideology is "you are subhuman and should be removed from society", then if someone agrees with you, but thinks you are the subhuman one.. well, isn't what's good for the goose is also good for the gander?

So you're saying that the person who attacked the fascist is the equivalent of a fascist?

[–]Felinomancy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

No. The question is rhetorical, and points to the stupidity of fascism.

[–]Making_Butts_Hurt [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

So. Much. Wrongthink.

[–]max_sil [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

This website: i want to punch children who annoy me, women (equal rights equal lefts amarite) and anyone who looks like they deserve it ( punchablefaces )

Nazi gets punched

REEEEEE FREE SPEECH I WILL DEFEND TO DEATH THEIR RIGHT TO SAY IT

[–]Manception [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Things to fear and resist in 2017:

✓ Nazi punchers

✖ Actual fucking nazis

[–]auhni_sa [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Would I punch him? No. Am I upset that someone else did? No.

[–]gymfetish10101 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm upset that I didn't get to do it personally.

[–]Pananar [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Same.

I realize it is wrong to punch him but I'm not gonna feel any major sympahies.

[–]bearnomadwizardAre we going to stop oppressing the socialist catgirls? [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Punching fascists became wrong in 1946 /s

[–]loliwarmech [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Me too. I'm a huge weenie and would feel bad after punching anyone, but it's so satisfying to see fascists getting decked.

[–]SnapshillBotShilling for Big Archive™ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

All hail MillenniumFalc0n!

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[–]Electric_Evil [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Okay, who wants to take bets on how long it takes before the drama moves into this thread?

[–]94Eddi [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

We're still suffering from a world popcorn shortage from the election campaign :(

[–]SnikkRottDa Waaaagh Cuck [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's already kind of here. Although it's more tense discussion rather than full blown drama.

*edit: spelling error

[–]allamacalledcarl7/11 was a part time job! [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Already happened. Look upthread. And downthread.

[–]StubbedToeI FEEL VERY ATTACKED!!! [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Be warned all who enter this thread, it's turning into a damn mess.