全 20 件のコメント

[–]lacerikatheist 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would recommend, if you've not already, watching and reading what you can by James Randi.

He's a magician and a skeptic, and while he has a righteous anger for charlatans, he has a deeply empathetic and caring core for those taken in by the traps these charlatans lay.

Try and remember, anyone, no matter how smart can be tricked, and you don't know when you are the one being tricked.

[–]thisdesignupChristian (Seventh Day Adventist) 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm curious, considering the sub, are you just making a statement or are you hoping for someone to tell or show you otherwise?

[–]salamanderwolfpagan/anti anti-theist 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So your whole argument is philisophy is batshit insane and I don't agree with any thiest argument therefore theism is crap?

Can't wait to see the quality responses you get to this.

[–]mhornbergeragnostic atheist 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I really am sorry to hold this view that theism is so vapid, because I want to respect the view of my theist friends and family

This is why so many of us just don't talk about the subject with friends and family. People who are otherwise inquisitive, and open to probing questions, often seem glib and incurious when it comes to their own faith. If you accept that most people believe because the belief is comforting, makes them feel better about life and existence, then it's easier to just leave it alone. Most are not interested in critical discussion, and the arguments, should they present any, are often not load-bearing.

The anger comes from the fact that I see theists so often manipulating people and society in negative ways, and then I see them smugly justifying themselves with awful arguments.

And we can and should engage those arguments when they're found out in the world. But when it comes to your friends and family, or anyone you are unwilling or unable to distance yourself from, it is better to just leave it alone. I know plenty of people who can't talk to their mothers about religion because admitting they are unbelievers would "break her heart." Meaning, their mother is using emotional blackmail to try to get them to go to church and at least mouth fealty to the religion. But they love their Mom, so they just avoid the subject and keep the conversation on neutral ground.

[–]quakeroaksagnostic theist (ex-atheist) 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yeah, coming from the other side (agnostic theist), seconding /u/mhornberger's advice to just not bring it up. Regardless of how good your arguments are, it comes across as really arrogant, patronising, and aggressive to constantly challenge people with different beliefs to your own. You'll only end up ostracising people and damaging relationships if you constantly attack their deeply-held beliefs. People believe different things for reasons they may not be willing to share, and that's just life: we've gotta learn to get along despite these differences.

Think of it this way: if you're a meat-eater, how would you feel if a close friend was a militant vegan, and took every opportunity to have a go at you about your meat-eating ways? Even if their arguments were good, you probably wouldn't be inclined to listen, and would probably want to listen less because of it. (If you're a vegan yourself, then think of some other, similar analogy.)

[–]dominus_tectumThomist - Annoying Roman Catholic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Vegans try to evangelize more than Pentecostal Christians

[–]MikeTheInfidel 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Amen to that. And don't get me started on those CrossFit people...

[–]quakeroaksagnostic theist (ex-atheist) 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pretty much my point - whether or not vegans are correct is irrelevant, because people get so annoyed by it that the annoyance factor is all they can think about. Any devoutly held belief system - whatever it is - and yes, that includes hardcore atheism - can and will come across to other people in that way.

[–]PortalWombatatheist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure but they talk about meat ALL THE TIME. They barbecue every Sunday, never have vegan dishes, and keep inviting you no matter how many times you politely decline. When you had that operation last year they made you a brisket.

I'm all for not bringing it up but that's gotta be a two way street.

[–]dominus_tectumThomist - Annoying Roman Catholic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

If Christians are allowed to evangelize, other religions and atheists should be able to dish it out to Christians with no hard feelings, IMO. Why would one be allowed to express believes, but get angry if someone comes back with something else?

[–]mhornbergeragnostic atheist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I didn't say OP wasn't allowed to. I advised against it, and pointed out why. Those same Christians who relentlessly evangelize to those who don't want to hear it are damaging those relationships. They just lack the self-awareness to recognize it.

Out in the world, yes, I do believe in critically engaging arguments. But in personal and family relationships, it is often the relationship that takes precedence. And frankly many people aren't interested in critical discussion.

[–]dominus_tectumThomist - Annoying Roman Catholic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree, I was just generally pointing out it goes both ways. You obviously aren't going to convince your family of that though.

[–]mhornbergeragnostic atheist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You obviously aren't going to convince your family of that though.

No, generally not. Which is why I used the strong wording of "emotional blackmail" in my response. Those family members aren't being fair, and aren't just engaging in amicable and critical discussion about beliefs. They're using your love for them as a lever, trying to guilt you into compliance.

It sucks, but your choices still remain what they are. You can try to steer the conversation to neutral ground, or die on that hill and possibly damage your relationship with that friend or family member. We all have to face the personal decision of whether we're willing to risk that.

[–]mcapelloanti-theist 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well...

I mean, most people don't think about these problems too deeply, and when you look at people form other beliefs, false dichotomies, shallow gimmicks, and rhetorical craftsmanship are usually sufficient to the task.

Consider the following ideas:

"More smart people in the world have believed in God than not, so it's probably a good bet it's true."

"Everyone can't be wrong."

"Science is all theories anyway, so you might as well believe what your heart tells you."

"Everyone has to believe in something, otherwise there are no rules in life, or any purpose to living."

"Science doesn't have all the answers, and neither does any religion, but if Hell is real then you're better off believing, because you have nothing to lose if you're wrong."

"Religion tells us right from wrong, so even if we can't prove the existence of God, we have to believe."

and so on, and so on...

The fact is that most people don't need an "actual" argument to believe in something. They simply need a few good ideas, or sayings, or nuggets of folk wisdom that sound pretty reasonable in a brief uninformed conversation, and which allow them to get on with their lives without much fuss.

[–]dominus_tectumThomist - Annoying Roman Catholic 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Is this just a long rant that your philosophical framework is naturalism? I am not sure how you want someone to respond to this.

[–]ssiankysatanist -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Do you know the deference between the ontological and methodological naturalism?

[–]dominus_tectumThomist - Annoying Roman Catholic 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, why would you think otherwise.

[–]ssiankysatanist -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What's wrong with methodological?

[–]dominus_tectumThomist - Annoying Roman Catholic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

nothing?