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[WA] Neighbor's son walked into my garage while I was welding and stared at the arc suffering corneal flash burn. Am I liable? (self.legaladvice)

Weld_TA3847 が 投稿

I was working on a vehicle when he wandered in through an open side door, the main garage door was shut. I didn't notice him right away and don't know how long he was standing there but immediately stopped when I realized. I took him back to his house and told his mother what happened and that she should take him to a doctor if there was eye pain. She freaked out and yelled at me for leaving the door open and hurting her boy.

Today I got a call from her and it turns out he was injured and she had to take him to the ER/Ophthalmologist and miss two days of work to care for him. She's threatening to sue me if I don't give her $5000 by next Wednesday. Would she have any legal ground to win if she does sue?

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[–]JungleSumTimes 457 ポイント458 ポイント  (10子コメント)

It is best if you cease communication to anyone regarding the incident and definitely get an attorney should they file suit. And no, do not pay them a dime. Shit happens. Wasn't your fault.

[–]OutOfMoneyError 76 ポイント77 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I hate parents who dont watch their kids carefully and blame others for their own negligence.

[–]01hair 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean, I applaud her for not being a helicopter mom (although that will probably change after this incident). It isn't really her fault, either. Shit happens.

[–]Lews-Therin-Telamon 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Is she supposed to follow her kid all day?

[–]howyougetmice 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Op could alert his insurer instead of contacting an attorney. They'll give op good advice in the near term, and pay for an attorney to defend him if it becomes necessary (assuming he's sued for something covered like bodily injury).

[–]sugarfreeeyecandy -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, contact your insurance company immediately, but in the end the insurance company will defend it's own losses first, losses of the insured second. Get your own lawyer.

[–]shazbottled 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

His loss is the insurance companies loss. Liability coverage will do this and I bet they will win. More likely they would tell her to pound and and request costs

[–]Reddisaurusrekts 571 ポイント572 ポイント  (45子コメント)

How old's the kid? And no, very likely not. Ignore her until and unless she actually sues, and if that happens, then go to a lawyer. The only potential way you could be liable would be if arc-welding was an attractive nuisance, and I can't possibly imagine how that could be. Ultimately it's her responsibility to supervise her children - what if he wandered onto a big road instead of into your garage?

[–]Weld_TA3847[S] 298 ポイント299 ポイント  (31子コメント)

Not sure exact age but he looks to be around 8 years old? The garage door was shut and has high windows so you wouldn't be able to see anything from the outside if that helps.

[–]Reddisaurusrekts 309 ポイント310 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Yeah, honestly the attractive nuisance angle would be a very long shot for the neighbor to begin with. And this makes it an even longer shot. Don't worry about it, she's probably just acting like a distraught mother with an injured kid.

[–]Isei8773 176 ポイント177 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't know. Distraught mothers are fussing over their children, not threatening lawsuits. I know it isn't exactly a defense, but it looks like she's just trying to cash out.

OP, make sure you don't do anything silly like admit fault.

[–]Junkmans1 192 ポイント193 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Eh... there are plenty of distraught mothers whose first impulse is to find blame anywhere but in their child.

[–]earthboundEclectic 112 ポイント113 ポイント  (0子コメント)

or themselves

[–]PedanticPaladin 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd say that's the second impulse; the first is to find some way to not blame themselves.

[–]BeenCarl 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Usually by blaming others

[–]Mdcastle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do be devil's advocate, aren't boys that age naturally fascinated with sparks and fire? Or does it not matter since it wasn't in plain view from outside the OP's property?

[–]NovaNardis 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Him being inside, and the main garage door being shut, suggests to me that attractive nuisance wouldn't work, but I don't know tort law well enough to say for sure.

Was the side door open and in hanging open, or open as in unlocked?

[–]justarandomcommenter 149 ポイント150 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Phone your homeowner's insurance and key them know what happened. They should provide you with a lawyer to defend you, and pay out for any liability that might be found (if it even comes to that).

[–]legalese2015 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (16子コメント)

There's an interesting question raised by this scenario. Many homeowners policies come with no fault medical payments coverage. I'm loosely assuming that this might be covered. If you have this coverage you might at least consider passing that information on to the mother. It's usually $1,000-10,000 of no fault coverage intended to cover out of pocket medical expenses. I don't think you have much to worry about by way of a civil suit. If you are sued, I would still submit it to your homeowner's insurance company. They will likely provide you with a lawyer to defend you.

EDIT: med pay coverage is usually found on auto policies, homeowner's and renters insurance and some farm and business policies. The whole point is to get folks the medical treatment they need regardless of fault (mostly). It's usually attached to occupants of vehicles, or folks who are on the premises. This might be an alternative so that the kid gets the treatment he might need and you can all remain on good terms. You likely already paid for this coverage, might as well use it. She doesn't automatically get the money, she would have to provide documentation to the adjuster.

[–]jbaughb 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Would OPs premiums be raised if his insurance paid out with the no-fault medical coverage?

[–]Canadaismyhat 66 ポイント67 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Yes, which is why that's an unfathomably idiotic idea and an excellent example of why you should never under any circumstances take advice from Reddit.

[–]Username_Used 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm an insurance agent. A single, small claim will not usually raise your premiums. And the reality is, something like this, which could easily end up being tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands down the road, should absolutely be reported to the insurance company. This is exactly the scenario you pay for insurance for. Something you did, unintentionally injured another person on your property.

Part of your insurance contract includes a duty to report a loss to the insurer in a timely manner. If they don't report this, and a year later some lasting eye injury pops up and these people need another $100,000 for some super expensive eye surgery, the claim could very well be denied because he didn't inform the insurer what was happening.

Also, if they do end up suing him for something, guess what? Big bad billion dollar insurance company has a wonderful pit of lawyers that are there for this exact reason. To defend the insured. If you never report it, or wait too long to report it, you may not have the access to those lawyers which you have been paying for.

There are many misconceptions about insurance and making claims. Insurance is not for the small stuff. It's not a maintenance plan. Don't put in claims for damage to your house for $1,000-2500 for instance. Just fix that stuff out of pocket. Large claims $5,000+ are what you are paying for.

Furthermore, liability claims are your biggest "risk" as a homeowner. Things like this should absolutely be reported to the insurance company. Even if only to put them on notice that something happened and you aren't sure what may come of it if anything. Then, they have the record started and things are ready to happen if/when needed.

Filing a claim in and of itself will not raise your premiums. Continually filing claims will result in raised premium or non-renewal as you begin to show yourself as being high risk and something you are doing is not right. Insurance is there to make a claim. That's the sole reason it exists. The notion of never making a claim is silly. Why even carry it if you are never going to make a claim?

One more thing, something like this, a kid getting his eyes injured, possibly permanently, could be a very large claim payout if all goes wrong. Most homeowners policies top out at $500,000 liability. Many companies are now offering $1,000,000 as well. That being said, and umbrella policy is dirt cheap for what you get in the event that is needed. Everyone should be carrying at a minimum a $2,000,000 umbrella policy. Do you have a couple teenagers who are learning to drive? Maybe up it to $5,000,000. Multiple homes, cars and boats? Maybe up it to $5,000,000. You can also add additional underinsured/uninsured motorist coverage to it. This is the coverage that fixes you in a terrible accident where the at fault driver didn't have enough insurance and you and your son/daughter/spouse all need $500,000 worth of hospital care and rehabilitation.

[–]Zerhackermann 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

This. Im not in insurance but I am a homeowner. I had an incident about five years ago where my dogs managed to put a hole in the fence and tangled with a bicycle. Result: a couple scrapes on the dude and bike.

I'm not going to go into what my opinion of the dudes reaction was.

I was presented with a four figure claim and suit threat.

I had notified my insurance company. When I got the letter, I forwarded it to them. They settled it for about 25%. Ive not seen an increase in premiums.

It was my second claim in a decade. THe previous was a totally different sort of claim. I dont know if that matters, but whatever

Insurance. I hate paying for it. I like having it.

[–]Username_Used 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

THe previous was a totally different sort of claim. I dont know if that matters,

To some extent it does. Multiple liability or property loss claims that are the same show an unwillingness by the insured to take steps to reduce the risk.

[–]Zerhackermann 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Perhaps the circumstances mattered. It was weather damage. Ice storm snapped a tree which pulled the electric feed off the house. which in turn yanked the mast. I had to have the mast, breaker box and incoming line replaced. I paid the deductible.

If there was an increase over that, it was small enough that I dont recall it. I know there wasnt after the dog incident.

Thats just my experience. Others may have a different experience.

[–]Username_Used 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ice storm wasn't your fault or the fault of anything you did. It affected the entire area. And theoretically, the offending tree/limb was no longer in the same position so the risk of it occurring again had been minimized/eliminated.

The dog has a lot of variables. Type of dog, steps taken to keep the dog contained, bite history, etc etc etc. But, a one time thing with a low risk breed and what sounded like a somewhat frivolous suit most likely wasn't a huge deal. But, your file does have a record of your dog doing it, if it happens again, that is when they will look at non-renewing or raising your rates.

[–]jbaughb 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Does that include the advice that you've just given me to avoid taking advice from Reddit?

[–]captain__sock 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

"This statement is false."

[–]Username_Used 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, because he's not right anyway.

[–]howyougetmice 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They wouldn't go up for that type of claim at the company I work for. Op should ask his agent this question to find out for sure.

[–]Bezulba 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So the time you actually need your insurance they raise the price so you end up not using it because it raises the price? What's the bloody point of having any in the first place if the best solution is not using it?

[–]Username_Used 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That guy has no idea what he's talking about.

[–]dontuseaccount 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You have to weigh up how much it will cost to not use insurance v future increased premiums. If it's a choice of $1000 OOP now or $500 more a year for 5 years, OOP is probably the better option. But if insurance will cover a $10,000 claim for you, you might be better off taking the future hit.

[–]sohmal 49 ポイント50 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I'd be very, very surprised if a court considered arc-welding the kind of thing that would lure a kid onto someone's property.

[–]country_hacker 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Can't speak toward the legal aspect, but having been an 8yo boy myself once, the indirect flashing from a welder would definitely have piqued my curiosity, and if my parents hadn't been firm regarding wandering onto other people's property, I could see myself checking out what that flashing light was.

[–]strolls 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

+1, that's cool as fuck, mister.

[–]sohmal 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's definitely an argument that can be made, don't get me wrong, so I think OP shouldn't completely write off the possibility of getting sued over this. When I think of attractive nuisance though, I think of pools, heavy machinery (ride-on mowers, etc.), really any kind of hole in the ground, abandoned buildings, stuff like that. I don't know Washington law, but I think OP would have had to know that there are kids around too. I wouldn't tell OP to lawyer up just yet, because a lot of people get pretend-litigious when their kids are involved, but OP should maybe do a free consultation with someone and have a number around just in case.

[–]SlimJim84 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I will never, ever understand how there's a law on the books in the US (we don't have such a ridiculous thing here) that basically makes the person liable for having something pretty that can attract a child that causes itself harm.

I mean, there are many stupid laws that are still legally enforced, but this one is just beyond comprehension. How does attractive nuisance trump trespassing? Should a parent not tell their kids to not go where they're not allowed, or to ask permission first? Do we really need unnecessary and, frankly, stupid laws to do the parenting that people are incapable of?

[–]StringLiteral 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sometimes parents are careless or inattentive; other times children do something they know they're not supposed to do. We as a society and as reasonable individuals still want to minimize harm to children, regardless of the quality of care their parents provide and their own naturally limited judgement and self-control. "Don't lure children to their doom" seems like a good law to me even if that doom is on your property and those children trespass.

[–]acosmichippo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

what if he wandered onto a big road instead of into your garage?

maybe I'm splitting hairs with your analogy, but aren't drivers always at fault for hitting a pedestrian, regardless of circumstance?

[–]_Aj_ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unless the kids a moth.... He's got no excuse for being attracted into someone's house to stare at a bright light

[–]KimJongUnappetizing 227 ポイント228 ポイント  (62子コメント)

Probably not. He did not have permission to enter your house and he injured himself as a result of observing legal work you are doing on your car. Ignore her until she actually sues you. If you are served, don't ignore it, and respond appropriately by letting your homeowner's insurance know. They will deal with her.

Plus, why $5000? Is her deductible on her medical insurance that high? Doubtful. If her insurance pays the bill, all she could sue you for is her deductible (though the insurance company could come after you for the balance). Regardless, it is very unlikely that you have any liability here.

[–]rmslashusr 174 ポイント175 ポイント  (60子コメント)

Doubtful? That's a pretty normal deductible for a family plan HSA these days.

[–]hectorabaya 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yeah, the lowest option I had at my last job was a $3,000 deductible; you could go up to like $12,000 depending on how much you wanted to pay in monthly premiums. Fortunately my spouse has a job with an extremely good health plan so I didn't have to go that route, but a $5,000 deductible seems pretty average to me based on my experience with various jobs and what I know from friends and family.

...our healthcare system is so fucking broken.

[–]psychicsword 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I am starting to think that my $500 deductible is pretty exceptional.

[–]rmslashusr 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

It depends what you're paying. Keep in mind that large deductible on an HSA comes with a much lower monthly price tag along with an HSA account which you can put money in pre tax and unlike a FSA you can invest it and you keep it forever so it's like an extra 401K.

Also lots of people game the system by getting pricey non-generic prescriptions that the manufactures offer rebates on. You pay full price, hit your deductible limit for the year, send in a rebate to the manufacturer and get reimbursed and then the rest of your healthcare is free for the year. The manufacturers know they can charge whatever they want if they offer that initial rebate so that individuals aren't paying.

[–]psychicsword 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

That is the exceptional part. I pay $20/month for the health insurance and $2.13 for dental.

[–]SuccessAndSerenity 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You pay $20/mo and have a $500 deductible? Where tf do you work?

[–]rmslashusr 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nice, sounds like your work heavily subsidizes your plan.

[–]pv46[🍰] 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I could absolutely see a family insurance plan's deductible being that high. Mine is higher, and I'm a single young male in good health.

[–]InsrtChainsstyle 74 ポイント75 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Dont give her the money. Not an attorney in anyway but you could just give her the 5k and she could sue anyway.

[–]jleete01 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sounds more like a case of someone trespassing on your property

[–]the_ocalhoun 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Only if there was a 'no trespassing' sign clearly displayed somewhere.

Otherwise, it only becomes trespassing after you ask them to leave and they either refuse to go away or come back without permission.

[–]Mooseknuck77 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

State dependent and entering a premise or fenced area could constitute a higher level of trespass.

[–]Argendauss 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That doesn't jibe with this http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.52

[–]wickedogg 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Did the kid have any reason to believe he had permission to come watch you work, like was it common in the past?

Don't pay her anything unless you have an attorney review the settlement agreement.

[–]ElMachoGrande 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is no reasonable way you can keep your eyes open for intruding kids when arc welding. Your focus is on the weld, and the mask pretty much makes you blind to everything else.

Likewise, having ventilation (=open door) is standard practice when welding.

Also, the eye irritation will go away in a few days.

[–]wutang76xx 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tell her to pound sand and keep an eye on her kid.. i think a judge might be more interested in how the child was able to wonder off into another person's house..

[–]smacksaw 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If it were me, I'd give a heads-up to an attorney as a precautionary measure.

There's a chance the hospital reported the mother for negligence, which in turn will lead to an investigation, which will lead to you.

I'd start documenting things right away.

When my daughter was 5 and almost died falling out of a 2nd story window she was leaning on, we had to fend off a social worker and some cops at hospital while waiting to find out if our kid was gonna live or not.

It wasn't until I name dropped a bunch of people in charge of both of these parties that they fucked off. They were gunning for us. We simply had the windows open on a hot San Diego summer day.

You never know when you get some cowboy social worker with a wild hair up their ass. The fact she's threatening you looks like a show to deflect blame. "Don't accuse me! Accuse him! See, he paid me/I'm suing him."

You gotta know how this situation can go wrong in the hands of unreasonable people. It probably won't, but I've seen dumber. That's why you want to CYA.

It's worth it to spend $0-50 on a free/cheap consult just to have someone to call if you get tangled up.in this shit. Always be proactive. Reactive people needing legal help always pay more.

[–]ih8lurking 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm disappointed that all it took to get these people off your ass is name dropping. I mean it sounds like you didn't do anything wrong, but what if someone rich and powerful did? All they would need to do to do is say a name and they can keep hitting their kid

[–]ComicBookDad 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A few posters have mentioned it but the responses are not at the top. Notify your homeowners insurance (assuming you have it) immediately. Failing to do so may jeopardize the protection of affords. This is why you have insurance.

[–]DuneBug 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You should probably be covered legally by your home insurance policy if they decide to sue. So since insurance will pay out (if it comes to that) i would not recommend giving her any money.

I believe you're supposed to notify your insurance company about any possible legal claims asap so you may want to do that.

[–]hsfrey 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

How old a kid?

[–]pmatdacat 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Op said 8ish higher up

[–]Pvt_Rosie 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The kid snuck into your house without permission and she's trying to blame you when he hurts himself?

I mean, wandering into your yard, sure. Kids will be kids. But wandering into your house is different. Especially when the kid's mother is trying to sue you for $5000.

[–]AxemanAttorneyAtFun 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The woman is going after your Homeowners insurance. Many insurance companies will pay out pretty quickly with these type of accidents. I would give them a call and let them know what happened.

[–]mask2697 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd recommend contacting a lawyer to be safe, and not communicating with them, however unless you actually get served you probably don't need to be too worried here.

[–]Jackielegz8689 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Did she actually threaten to sue if you don't hand over 5k? I'm not a lawyer but isn't that a form of blackmail or extortion?

[–]dorri732 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

isn't that a form of blackmail or extortion?

Not at all. What you're thinking of is "I'll call the cops on you and report the illegal activity you've been engaged in if you don't pay me". That's illegal.

Saying "you owe me $5000. I'll sue if you don't pay" is just how life works.

[–]Plankity -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's going to come down to whether you had a legal duty to keep the premesis reasonably secure under those conditions. Whether it was reasonably foreseeable for a kid to walk in under those circumstances.

[–]gyhjyhg54567hg5 -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm guessing it's a lower income area, why the hell are kids just walking into peoples houses?