全 35 件のコメント

[–]happon 51 ポイント52 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Absolutely appalling. How can someone claiming feminism be so tone deaf and blind to their own misogyny? And who even came up with these offensive terms, "whorephobia", "slutshaming". Why not just call it "bitch-icide" while they're at it?

Such an awful story too. I hope that poor girl's family and friends never see how this account is describing her murder.

[–]qooqledetransitioned for the better! 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is there a difference between slutphobia and whorephobia? (Both sound gross ugh)

[–]_gynomite_ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I assume the payment? Slut has sex for free because she enjoy it vs. whore has sex as a job.

[–]qooqledetransitioned for the better! 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ahhhh got it.

[–]languidswanThe Big, Bad She-Wolf 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (12子コメント)

The term is revolting, there's no denying that, but now that you mention it, even the concept under it...I'm not a fan of how it's framed. I've been trying to articulate to myself why, and I think it's that usually "phobia", as to make sense in a social aspect as it's commonly used, needs to refer to something intrinsic and neutral. Like race. Like sex. Like sexual orientation. Etc. "Whore" is not an objective descriptor of your natural human existence. "Whore" is not who you inescapably are, it's a descriptor of behavior (similar applies to the "femmephobia" thing too). These concepts are the definition of internalized misogyny, of internalizing the harmful mechanisms you're forced to adopt to survive as something that's naturally you, and that cannot be criticized without you taking this criticism personally. It's downright twisted, it's putting up a human shield in defense of phenomenons that hurt those same humans.

You can't criticize prostitution, BDSM, extreme performance of femininity etc, without apparently harming the human rights of people who perceive themselves as if they embody it. I mean, way to naturalize these things. While the more reasonable position to have is that ignoring the blatant harmful effect of those things to protect individual feelings is incredibly misguided and dangerous. I'm just waiting for the day they naturally extend this logic to the victims of domestic violence. But it's her choice! She chooses to stay with him and you being opposed to that is you literally denying her agency. Which is why liberal feminism is a backlash to any serious feminism, not a continuation. It's women choosing their internalized misogyny over the discomfort of unpacking it, but still feeling the need to do it under the feminist label, because they cannot stand it when even a fringe of the world doesn't pat them on the head and tells them what a nice, obedient object they are. When anyone disapproves, it bugs them, so if it's between pleasing patriarchy and feminists, they'll side with the patriarchy and invest effort into shutting up feminism because it's much easier than the reverse (one clever way to do it is to colonize it and replace it with your own regressive views). It's incredibly sad, these women have forgone any hope of ever being treated or seen as humans, and now they feel threatened by (actual) feminists for trying to take away their patriarchal consolation prize.

[–]frusteratedrant 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm just waiting for the day they naturally extend this logic to the victims of domestic violence. But it's her choice! She chooses to stay with him and you being opposed to that is you literally denying her agency.

This already exists : (

I've certainly heard it from MRA and men broadly. But more frighteningly I've heard rationale from Libertarian and so called " full equality" folks such as "well women wanted equality so here you go....you gonna act like a man we'll (I'll) treat you like a man". Thus justifying punching or beating women who "earned it" all under the guise of a perverted equality feminism.

Also, the BDSM community plays "no true Scotsman" game with the subject of abuse. ALL of my IRL political women friends are radicals (commies, anarchists) who are third wave. If you slap a Dom/sub label on a relationship it's virtually out of bounds to criticize and it becomes very hard for women "subs" to prove a line was crossed between "play" and abuse. So in this context I've absolutely heard in person and read from feminists a defense of Male violence. I don't even mean this as a broad swipe against BDSM or kink.....that's a whole another analysis. I mean literally defending one-on-one long standing violence because the "sub" "consented"...."two consenting adults" blah blah blah.

[–]_gynomite_ 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Defending violence due to consent is strange when no one ever stops to consider why it is that someone consents to these things in the first place. There's a very poor job at analyzing the "sane" aspect of "safe, sane and consensual."

[–]TheNewGarry2 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have seen this too! :( Not to mention fat acceptance 'feminists' defending feederism (if you don't know, don't look it up) because criticizing it would be 'judging' 'consenting adults'. http://soundcloud.com/the-bod-cast/fat-fetishism-bbw-modeling-feat-plump-princess In the same breath I've heard them say that most feeders they knew were known abusers but 'you can't judge'.

[–]violetrevalesbian anarchist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It seems to me that feederism / fat fetishism is definitively abusive and by framing the issue as a matter "acceptance", "tolerance", "love", etc, libfems are brushing over the abuse and oppression wrapped into the fetishization of...well, abuse and oppression (including the fetishization of groups of people thought to be oppressed). It's almost like the dark side of identity politics is that there's a feast of fetishes to partake in, feeding off of the oppression hierarchy.

[–]thelandisoursTrans cat 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eurgh. But I don't doubt it. :(

[–]Qualiteee 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"I've heard rationale from Libertarian and so called " full equality" folks such as "well women wanted equality so here you go....you gonna act like a man we'll (I'll) treat you like a man". Thus justifying punching or beating women who "earned it" all under the guise of a perverted equality feminism."

Omg this makes me feel physically sick :/

[–]itazurakko 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (2子コメント)

languidswan writes:

Which is why liberal feminism is a backlash to any serious feminism, not a continuation. It's women choosing their internalized misogyny over the discomfort of unpacking it, but still feeling the need to do it under the feminist label, because they cannot stand it when even a fringe of the world doesn't pat them on the head and tells them what a nice, obedient object they are.

Wow. That pretty much nails it.

Also let it be said that I'm getting mighty tired of the word "agency."

[–]vulvapeopleI am Terficus 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Agency" and "empowerment" can fuck off forever.

[–]susannunes 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am also getting tired of people using the vile terms "sex work" and "sex workers" to describe prostitution and prostitutes. Words matter, and using the pomo terminology trivializes human rights abuse and human tragedy.

[–]GenderCriticalDadI have a Sex. Not a Gender 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But it's her choice! She chooses to stay with him and you being opposed to that is you literally denying her agency.

That is so well put.

[–]BimblebyGiant bipedal vagina. 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

clapping. I agree so very much

[–]endofthelinerXX-Marks-My-Sex=Female 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's the story of the murder. This poor child. All this "sex poz" and "sex work is empowering" bullshit is dangerous to girls.

The perp is charged with first degree murder. Good.

http://abc7.com/news/man-kills-16-year-old-girl-after-he-cant-pay-for-sex-officials-say/1679606/

[–]heidischallengedum spiro spero 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

your are absolutely right! This is a child. How does she NOT qualify in the purpose of the instagram account? She was murdered by male violence. Why are prostitutes excluded from this list of male violence? It's proof of how men see women's bodies.

[–]terfs-upBetter terf than serf 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I swear, libfems spend 100% of their efforts to make everything about the right to personal expression over actually naming the problem. That's probably too scary for them.

[–]itazurakko 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fuckin' A.

"If someone somewhere chooses to do this then we can't make any critiques of it or talk about how the trends impact people in the long term, EVAR"

[–]frusteratedrant 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (3子コメント)

This subject has bothered me for so long and I actually think it's the seed that started my move away from libfem and lead to various-"peak" moments. I really appreciate user languidswan 's comment....articulates my feelings exactly.

I just don't get the funfems rationale for this. I've tried. I can't. "Whore" and ""slut" NEVER belonged to women. What is there to reclaim? This is a strategy of the disempowered. Its like when the school-yard bully everday taunts some kid as being a loser and ugly. Eventually the kid "stands up" for himself by saying "I'm a loser and ugly...so what?" This temporarily disarms the bully as he was expecting crying or the typical response....maybe he even walks away. But what has been won? Will the insults stop? Probably not. If they do.....at what expense? It's false empowerment.

I recently read from a commie (self proclaimed) feminist male an apology for an instruction guide he wrote on a public campus forum on how to undermine consent and actually rape women peers. He specifically targeted a fellow University peer who had a reputation as a "whore" but whom had recently become reclusive and reluctant to go out. It turns out he had actually raped her and was writing posts in how to help men make her feel "comfortable" to be with them so as to rape her. His "apology" letter was AN APOLOGY FOR HIS WHOREPHOBIA!!!

I swear I'm not exaggerating- his original post and subsequent apology made the rounds in online left spaces. Very few women called out this supposed "whorephobia" usage.

[–]heidischallengedum spiro spero 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

gaslighting on steriods

[–]_gynomite_ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I recently read from a commie (self proclaimed) feminist male an apology for an instruction guide he wrote on a public campus forum on how to undermine consent and actually rape women peers. He specifically targeted a fellow University peer who had a reputation as a "whore" but whom had recently become reclusive and reluctant to go out. It turns out he had actually raped her and was writing posts in how to help men make her feel "comfortable" to be with them so as to rape her. His "apology" letter was AN APOLOGY FOR HIS WHOREPHOBIA!!!

WHAT THE FUCK

[–]juustforthisTRANCE 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eventually the kid "stands up" for himself by saying "I'm a loser and ugly...

And in some cases that's exactly what the bully wants. For the victim to finally "admit" the faults ascribed to them by the bully. That's how abuse works and it's how oppression works. The oppressed class gets so defeated that they annihilate themselves just to save the energy it would cost to protect their dignity.

[–]transhumanistfem 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most of the libfems tossing around "whorephobia" are either not sex workers or are the kind who don't actually have to touch their clients (strippers/camgirl) As an actual sex worker who has sex with men for money: Fuck them. Fuck this misogyny disguised as progressivism. And fuck this whole "sex work is empowering" I've even seen underage victims of sex trafficking being labeled "child sex workers" which is absolutely abhorrent. I can't believe we're at a point where we aren't allowed to criticize such a disgusting industry without being called something-phobic or "exclusive"

[–]heidischallengedum spiro spero 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I had a middle of the night discussion with my 16 year old daughter. She has spent a lot of time on Tumblr, and due to her generation, she sees these gender issues differently. She thinks prostitution is a choice. I don't want to get through to her by showing her how depraved the world really is. That seems abusive.

[–]thefarrahmonster[S] 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (2子コメント)

While I wouldn't give her the most gruesome of details, as someone who was 16 relatively recently (early 20's now), I would tell her the truth. I had a pretty good idea by that age due to watching documentaries about sex trafficking. This "sex positivity" indoctrination can be really dangerous for young girls imo. It's important they get to hear the other side, for their own protection if anything. There's a documentary on Netflix called Tricked that would probably be a good introduction - there's an AMAZING documentary called Whore's Glory that shows every side of the coin (from a fancy club in Thailand where girls stand behind glass displays while wearing fancy designer clothes to a brothel in an impoverished village) but it does have a few graphic scenes that are probably a bit much for her age.

[–]TheNewGarry2 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This "sex positivity" indoctrination can be really dangerous for young girls imo.

Yep. I really think it started out with good intentions and was supposed to be a backlash to the purity culture/purity ball stuff but it has gone way too far now and has basically devolved into 'sex pos for the save of sex pos' with disturbing results. http://zthoughtcriminal.blogspot.com/2014/06/post-liberalism-is-brain-dead-and-not.html?m=1

I mean, it has culminated in a 46-year-old 'feminist' telling teenage girls they are 'hurting people' if they 'shame' Donalld Trump for having an alleged golden shower fetish. http://reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/5nnzo3/libfem_stop_kinkshaming_donald_trump/ I think once you reach that point these people need to really self-reflect and take a good, hard look at themselves and their ideology..

[–]heidischallengedum spiro spero 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for the response. I'll check those out. This subject isn't high on the list of how she wants to spend her time. lol

I talked to her about the story of the girls who took 'modeling' jobs from Craigslist and were flown to San Diego and forced to do porn. Every girl needs to know those kinds of things happen. She wasn't shocked.

[–]languidswanThe Big, Bad She-Wolf 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't want to get through to her by showing her how depraved the world really is. That seems abusive.

It might seem that way but it's honestly not. Disinfecting a wound with alcohol stings, but it's better than the alternative, and no one would think a woman cleaning a child's scraped knee was abusing her, even if it made her cry in that instant. Don't prefer the larger evil over the smaller evil just because the smaller evil is more under your control and therefore feels more like your responsibility. She will thank you in the long run (signed, headstrong girl who learned a lot from her mother even if she disagreed with it at the time).

[–]heidischallengedum spiro spero 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I watched this interview recently: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/prostitution_being_raped_for_a_living_20151025

It's a very good interview and exposes the life prostitutes experience. The reality of just how much men hate women is really hard to accept. I have not experienced this in my life, thankfully. I'm in my late 40's and I found it shocking. I think for teenagers, something less shocking can still drive the point home.

[–]violetrevalesbian anarchist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't prefer the larger evil over the smaller evil just because the smaller evil is more under your control and therefore feels more like your responsibility.

This is poetry.

[–]cactusflowers 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it would benefit your daughter if you're realistic with her about how these things work. You don't have to frame it as a scare tactic (and, being 16, I imagine she'd probably tune you out if you did), maybe just try to make sure that she's well-educated on the ins and outs of these "choices".

[–]mauritia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Whorephobia" bothers me deeply on both a political and an etymological level (should be pornophobia!). But this is a whole new level of gross-- one thing to call oneself a whore, another to slap the label on a tragically murdered teenager.