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Why is this subreddit so hostile towards (actual) pro life women? (self.TwoXChromosomes)

[deleted] が 投稿

I'm a mid 20's female with a post-grad engineering degree at a top university studying for a PhD. I'm the pro life person you all seem to despise - I think women deserve a society where abortion is unthinkable and nonexistent. And I'd like to call myself a feminist - but I do not feel welcome at feminist events because I seem to care about the mother and her child. There are groups founded by women out there who agree with me:

http://www.feministsforlife.org/ http://www.secularprolife.org/ http://newwavefeminists.blogspot.com/ https://www.sba-list.org/

Anyway, I'm anticipating the downvotes and floods of hateful message to my inbox, but please prove me wrong, 2Xers.

P.S. Norma McCorvy, the Roe of Roe V. Wade, changer her view and is now pro-life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norma_McCorvey

EDIT: this is probably the most comments I've ever gotten on a post. I'm not here to change your minds, just wanted to know the sentiment towards women who have opposing views to the norms of this subreddit. Thank you for sharing your perspectives and personal stories which definitely show me how complex this issue is and how many scars there are in the world.

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[–]cplanedriver 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Can't figure out if you're trolling or not. Having said that, I'm a dude, and probably more in danger of down votes than you are. So:

One of the fundamental arguments over the entire debate is the start of life. It's an absolutely unanswerable question that is a lot more complicated than saying you're for or against abortion.

If people can figure out when life starts, then that would be an easy law to make. Beyond that you might as well try and compare embryonic research to late tern abortion.

[–]sezit 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Well, almost. My view is that life started 3.5 billion years ago, and just keeps cycling on. The thing that is under debate is when that life becomes a person... when personhood starts. And that is a matter of opinion and judgement.

[–]cplanedriver 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

oh come on, you know exactly what i meant by the "start of life."

[–]sezit 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Sorry, didnt mean to piss you off. Its just that so many pro lifers will counter with an argument that the fertilized egg is alive, as a way to justify making abortion illegal.

[–]cplanedriver 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, i get where you're coming from. I wish people would have the "actual" argument instead of the "ideological" argument.

I'm pro choice, but I honestly couldn't tell you for certain when that choice starts. When i was younger it was pretty much any time, anywhere. As I've gotten older it's more of a "figure it out within the first 2 trimesters." I've come to look at it as a last resort, or within reason.

My POV as a guy is that it's something that we should allow, and not look down on, but on the flip side not be handing out free stamp cards for it wither, you know?

[–]sezit 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, the fact is that most elective abortions are early. Its really hard to call an abortion at 22 or 24 weeks "elective", since the only reason why anyone has them is because the fetus is severly fucked up... "incompatable with life" in medical jargon, or the mother has developed some severe emergency condition, such as preeclamsia, which will kill her if she does not terminate. Unfortunately, "pro-lifers' can't deal with gray areas or complexities, so they give these grieving parents even more grief by accusing them of "wanting to kill their baby", which is the furthest thing from reality.

[–]keksdiebeste -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just to be clear though, if the mother's life is at risk at or around viability (24 weeks) it's not an abortion, it's a delivery. They'll wait as long as they safely can, then they'll deliver the baby and the neonatologists will take it from there.

[–]applepopz 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why would being alive give something the right to use a person's body without consent?

[–]greyttast 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I commented down below about my pro-choice stance, but I wanted to add in a separate comment, kudos to OP for bringing this up. Others, I'd like to encourage you to support actual discussion by not burying others in down votes. Putting down others is the least effective way to win them over.

[–]bumbuff -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Echo chamber. Each sub is an echo chamber to their own opinions.

Meaningful discussion happens over a cup of coffee and pen and paper

[–]EverybodyPoopsOk 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't have any issue with pro-life or pro-choice really. I'd respect pro-life more if it wasn't so fanatical, or religiously skewed, and I'd respect pro-choice more if it acknowledged personal accountability as a major factor, instead of just my body my rules.

[–]liseux 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

We only see the outliers in both cases. I suspect there are many of us with strongly held beliefs on the matter with solid reasons to back it up and a respectful attitude. I am wary of divulging my beliefs because on a sub like this, as I am often swiftly demonized for them.

[–]EverybodyPoopsOk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't worry about being demonized, those who do the demonizing aren't worth listening to.

[–]trueluck3 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well you get an Up Vote from me, as it's pretty brave (especially on Reddit) to say your take on the matter either way. That being said, I'm pro choice, and really don't think it's fair for a women to try and express her pro life views to other women, that share opinions on maybe every other viewpoint, only to be judged solely on the pro life opinion alone. The very essence of being pro "choice," is that all women have a choice. Granted, this OP will likely lobby against our opinion, and that's where awareness and education come into play. We must educate others on why choice must be law, what the risks are on both sides, and, most importantly, have empathy for one another. If you can empathize better with one another, you'll be able to come to terms, tolerate and disagree, and move forward. As opposed to allowing rage to turn to hate - which hurts everyone.

[–]Applejuiceinthehall 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

These rights are inalienable: life, liberty and pursuit of happiness . I believe that these rights are in order by importance. A person's life is more important than someone else's freedom, a person's freedom is more important than someone's pursuit of happiness.

So that being said, I had to think very hard about abortion. It is a question of when does human life begin. Because if the baby, fetus or embryo is human life then it is more important than the mother's freedom or pursuit of happiness. If it is not human life then it doesn't have any inalienable rights. So the mother's rights always are more important than the fetus. Since there is not really an accepted answer of when human life begins I had to determine when in begins to me. I think human life probably begins when 50% of the babies could survive if born. Which is 25 weeks. I could maybe believe that human life begins at 22 weeks, prior to 22 week survival is nominal. Late term abortions are already illegal. So current abortion laws don't violate the inalienable rights of the mother or the baby. Any additional laws violates either the mother's or baby's right.

[–]yuliajunkie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A person's life is more important than someone else's freedom

Can you explain this with another example. I am trying to find a situation, and my mind went to a doctor...but we don't lock doctors up in hospitals and prevent them from leaving, aka their freedom.

I can think of one time when we do against their freedom, is to force retirement because a person's life is at risk. But yeah. Thoughts?

[–]pandorasboxxxy 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If you read anything that I write, please read this man's story: https://np.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/5m4lx9/i_an_atheist_just_erupted_at_my_verychristian/ that was posted on bestof reddit not long ago.

I cringe when I read accounts of women getting abortions and feeling nothing for little reason other than not wanting a baby. And sure, there are definitely people that use abortion as their birth control. It's gross.

But there are so many people that have good reasons for abortion. And regulating that would make it harder for them.

Relationships are complicated and even though I would only personally get an abortion in an extenuating circumstance such as rape or possibly fetal abnormality... I can be prolife for myself, but still leave the choice for each woman to make for herself.

We don't live in a society where abortion is unthinkable and nonexistent. we live in a society where there is rape. we live in a society where it can be difficult to get access to birth control, especially with Planned Parenthood's ability to provide health services (97% of which are NOT abortion) to women is compromised.

[–]ncbinlmnihgov 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I dont know, I'm an unwanted/accident baby, and I think I'd have rather my mother aborted me than put me through the childhood she did. Would have saved us both a lot of heartbreak. I think getting an abortion because someone knows they don't want it is a very good choice.

But yeah, I don't understand using abortion as a birth control. Literally every other method would be less expensive and less invasive.

[–]applepopz 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm an accident and didn't have a particularly terrible childhood, but looking at it objectively, it would have been far better for her to have aborted me. It's not like I would have minded.

[–]ihatetoiron 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's brave if you to bring this up. All I can say is that me being pro-choice does not equal me being anti-life. Being pro-life does always equal (in my experience) being anti-choice. I respect a woman's right to choose either path, you do not respect it at all.

[–]princess_awesomepony 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I take it from your past posts that you are catholic, which means you're most likely driven by your religion when it comes to abortion.

Creating laws in the name of Christ and forcing them on others is nothing short than the Christian version of Sharia law. And we've all seen how well that has gone down for women in countries that force sharia law.

No. Not in my country.

[–]paperplanesss 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

For the longest time I was fiercely against abortion. I got pregnant this year, completely unwanted, took me by absolute surprise, I had not used my birth control correctly. I felt extremely stupid and will always regret the fact that I was unsure yet continued to have unprotected sex (I had an IUD that I suspected was out of place.)I weighed my options and went to my doctor who told me that due to a number of medical concerns it was an extremely high risk pregnancy and that abortion was the best option for my life and the child. I accepted that I had to get an abortion, but the longer I sat with the decision the worse it felt. It was honestly the hardest thing I've ever had to do.

Going to the clinic was awful, there were protesters there that day and I just felt terrible. There were about 5 other girls there and I was blown away by how regular it seemed. One asked me if it was my "first time" as if it were something she did regularly, like when her other methods failed she thought she could just fall back on it, yes, someone ACTUALLY asked me that. That's what I don't find okay, people who use the fact that abortion is available as an excuse to not use proper birth control. Abortion is not birth control. It was extremely difficult but it was the best decision that I could have made. If I had been medically able to stick out my pregnancy, I think I would have made the same decision after thinking very hard about it.

Basically until I was put in that position it was impossible to rationalize the thought of ending the life of what could have been my child, but now I see that there are circumstances that truly warrant it (besides the obvious rape, medical concerns, etc.) I think that I would now consider myself pro-choice for the most part, but I still think that not taking the proper precautions is unsafe and too risky. I think that as opposed to people spending so much of their efforts trying to protect the right to abort there should be more education and a more open discussion about what birth control methods are available, and they should be made more easily available for people.

I would much rather see someone receive free birth control than have a child they can't afford or aren't ready to raise.

[–]I_Fart_On_Escalators [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The other woman who asked you if it was your first time might have actually just felt a bit nervous and was trying to initiate a conversation. She might have meant, "I've never done this before and I'm nervous". When I feel nervous, I try to strike up small talk with strangers around me, and it might come off awkward. I just wanted to offer an alternate explanation for her. I wouldn't want someone making assumptions about me if it were me.

[–]novegetal 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Being pro life is not a fundamentally feminist stand point. It's not just a trendy label you call yourself because "you believe men and women should be equal".... it is a political movement with specific beliefs. There are also different types (liberal, radical, eco, lesbian etc). People aren't being mean by claiming you're not a feminist... they're just saying how it is.

You're free to believe whatever you like, you just need to realise that "pro life" is not a compatible view with feminism.

[–]fuzzykiwis 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I upvoted for having the gall to post this here. I don't agree with you because I think that women should be able to get abortions if they're raped, serious birth defects, and other complicated situations. It's easy for us to imagine a world where nothing bad happens to people but unfortunately it does. I use to be pro-life then realized that I am pretty privileged to never have gone through something traumatic like rape and then be forced to carry the baby.

Even though you listed all these educational achievements it still doesn't mean you really understand the perspective of women who are in really desperate situations. In fact, it almost makes you seem disconnected from it in a way because you are privileged enough to have access to resources that women from poorer and less educated backgrounds do not have.

[–]feeltheslipstream 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's easy for people to say they're pro life until it actually bites them. For some people, it is a life destroying event to get pregnant when they're not ready for it.

Who doesn't want to protect children?

But read this article

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml

You've probably seen it before. But it's worth rereading. If you haven't, it might just answer your question.

[–]EmpressOfBritain 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This subreddit is hostile toward any conservative women. I'm actually a pro-choice, feminist, moderate conservative woman, and I often feel like my views are unwelcome here. That's just how this subreddit is, it's an extremely left-leaning community.

[–]ParyGanter 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't hate you, but people like you who support bad but think they're doing good are especially terrible and terrifying to me.

Forcing someone who doesn't want to be pregnant or to give birth to do so anyway just seems so monstrous to me. We always see the debates about whether the embryo/fetus/zygote is a person, but the woman in the situation is not a hypothetical or potential or debatable person. A woman is a person, unambiguously. So why not put her first? How can you be so monstrous but think your stance is the opposite? It boggles the mind.

[–]anon25513 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I can never get behind the concept of a completely nonexistent abortion position. My SIL has a blood disorder where a pregnancy is a death sentence, and until a time as birth control is 100% effective (the day after never) or until the costly procedure of removing and storing eggs becomes viable and affordable I could never even consider the argument for anyone wanting to make abortion nonexistent.

The gov't shouldn't legislate medical procedures that you can and cannot have. Doctors should use their morals and ethics to determine what procedures they feel comfortable doing, and ultimately patients decide what procedures they are okay with having.

Ultimately the best way to rid the country of abortion is to provide ample access to effective birth control methods for both men (hopefully a pill one day) and women, educate the masses about sex effectively (no more southern abstinent only BS), and have a robust, effective, and quality adoption/support system that can help pregnant women who can't support a child connect with families that are wanting to adopt and care for the child.

[–]congoLIPSSSSS 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm pro life as well, but by no means against abortions. I don't see why your opinion should affect other people. You don't want an abortion, don't have one.

[–]thesilvertongue 73 ポイント74 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seriously? You can't figure out why people whose rights you want to take away might be hostile towards you?

People often feel hostile when you advocate for stripping rights away from women and girls.

Forcing some into pregnancy and childbirth against their will is no small price.

Your political opinions are yours, but you can't expect people to respect or sing praises to you because of them.

[–]etoiledevol 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you think that I shouldn't be allowed to choose what happens to my own body, then yeah, I have a problem with you. It's none of your business.

[–]upstateman 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you think that pro-choice women and men are shown respect by those on your side? Do you think that abstinence only sex education is a good idea?

[–]091688 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Women deserve a society where they shouldn't have to have and/or raise a child they never even wanted in the first place.

Women deserve a society where they are able to make their own choices about what they do/ what is done to their bodies. Not a society that tells we aren't even capable of making that type of decision.

Women deserve a society where they shouldn't have to carry a child to term that is going to die shortly after birth or be be severely mentally and physically retarded.

Women deserve a society where a bunch of dusty old rich white men don't make decisions about our reproductive health for us.

[–]stkadria 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because being pro-life means believing abortion should be illegal, and when abortion is illegal, women fucking die.

[–]greyttast 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can understand why pro-life supporters are hostile towards pro-choice people such as myself. They believe that we're committing murder by aborting fetuses, and even more so, support murder by supporting others' choices. And if I thought that someone was supporting murderers for selfish reasons, I'd be angry as well.

I understand this, but I am also pro-choice. The issue that many have with pro-life supporters is that they don't understand or even attempt to understand pro-choice supporters.

I believe that children shouldn't be born to families who can't support them. Am I going to force someone to have an abortion, though, to try to save their children from a life of suffering? Of course not.

So it's insulting (at least to me) that someone wants to force their beliefs onto me. I understand that doing it is wrong. Most of the pro-life supporters I've met don't see that denying someone access to an abortion is wrong.

[–]fadedwinter 87 ポイント88 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Women deserve a society where they're in control of their own bodies.

[–]willow0104 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Respect earns respect. There was a pro life group at my university who protested abortion in the main area of campus and held up signs of aborted/miscarried fetuses. They were yelling at everyone who walked by, and essentially bullying people to believe in their point of view. There was no respectful dialogue...just shouting and fear mongering. The whole event just further solidified my pro choice stance. Despite this, I would never be "hostile" towards people who are pro life. I fully believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions, but not at the expense of others.

[–]sezit 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed. And the terrorism is all directed from the "pro-lifers" toward the abortion providers. There are no abortion doctors throwing bombs at churches or murdering "pro-lifers".

[–]i_tell_you_what 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm pretty hostile to anyone trying to rule my uterus. It makes me very very testy.

[–]bigfinnrider 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because the Anti-Choice movement is about imposing your morality on other people. The Pro-Choice movement is about allowing people to follow their own morality.

[–]applepopz 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I despise the pro life movement because it is despicable. It advocates forcing people to remain pregnant, which is torture. Even if you think abortion is murder, it is wrong to torture someone to prevent someone else's death. You can nicey-nice it however you like and say how "supportive" you'll be, but at the end of the day you are forcing someone to have their body disfigured and the most sensitive part of it ripped and torn. You're also risking that person's life. It's disgusting, it's wrong, and I don't respect people who support it any more than I respect people who support any other form of torture.

You are not a feminist. Any movement that wants to give women fewer rights to control how their bodies are used than corpses currently have is not a feminist movement.

[–]IdRatherBeTweeting 277 ポイント278 ポイント  (21子コメント)

This seems like a reasonable question and I am happy to share my perspective. I don't despise pro-life people specifically. What I do despise are people who want to force their viewpoint on controversial subjects onto others. Part of being Pro Choice is that I respect other people's autonomy. Pro Life people by definition do not respect other's autonomy, at least on this specific subject. Of course I do not believe in absolute autonomy, for example people should not be free to steal, however there is nuance in every facet of human behavior and abortion in particular is too nuanced to govern with a crude blanket rule banning the practice.

For example, my wife found out our unborn child had a brain defect. It was 22 weeks in. She had to have an abortion or spend months carrying a child that would not survive long after birth AND undergo a full-term birth. Do you really want to force my wife to do that?

As for your post, I find many parts of it odd:

I'm a mid 20's female with a post-grad engineering degree at a top university studying for a PhD.

How is your education relevant here? Sounds kind of humblebrag.

I'm the pro life person you all seem to despise - I think women deserve a society where abortion is unthinkable and nonexistent.

Addressed above. You think someone should have to bear the child of their rapist? That's what happens when abortion is "non-existent". What if the rapist is the victim's father and the fetus has genetic defects as a result? Still all-in on that ban?

And I'd like to call myself a feminist - but I do not feel welcome at feminist events because I seem to care about the mother and her child.

Definition of feminist is pretty broad (no pun intended). Lots of people with differing views call themselves feminists. I am sure there are plenty of Pro Life feminists that I would not feel comfortable hanging out with.

There are groups founded by women out there who agree with me: http://www.feministsforlife.org/ http://www.secularprolife.org/ http://newwavefeminists.blogspot.com/ https://www.sba-list.org/

Even if there was a majority that shared your opinion, it wouldn't make it necessarily right. Kind of irrelevant.

Anyway, I'm anticipating the downvotes and floods of hateful message to my inbox, but please prove me wrong, 2Xers.

Standard right-wing victimization complex. Are you aware of the TheDonald right wingers who recently terrorized this site? Goes both ways honey. For the record, I upvoted you because I think this conversation is interesting, despite the fact that I think you sound like a loon.

P.S. Norma McCorvy, the Roe of Roe V. Wade, changer her view and is now pro-life.

So what? The opinions of just one person are just that. One person. This is anecdotal data at best. Did you say you were a PhD? For someone educated in the sciences, you sure picked some lousy data to support your point.

In short, I find Pro Life people to have an overly-simplistic view of the many reasons women choose to have abortions and a heavy hand when blocking the autonomy of others. Nothing you have said here dissuades me from that opinion.

EDIT: I encourage people not to downvote OP's post even if you disagree with her. The best way to change people's minds is to upvote this post and all the comments that explain why her viewpoint is flawed. Burying this solves nothing.

[–]Conceptizual 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I agree with many of your points. However, I think OP actually did have a good reason for bringing up her PhD studies, in that many right wing people are often cast as uneducated. I have been in situations where my opinion is discounted for dumb reasons, like I decided to wear a skirt that day. Sometimes I want to point out that I'm not useless, I have the ability to reason through problems and derive my own conclusions. And I think that was an attempt to establish some type of legitimacy. Furthermore, calling OP honey is incredibly infantilizing. I am very pro-choice, but there are plenty of compelling arguments for pro-life stances. (For example, many arguments that license abortion also license killing infants.) You say you're open to discussion with OP, but your tone is incredibly condescending.

[–]IdRatherBeTweeting 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Furthermore, calling OP honey is incredibly infantilizing.

Please do not inaccurately suggest that I used "infantilizing" language when discussing abortion. I did not. The only place I was condescending and used "honey" was when OP started in with that bit about downvotes. I just find that kind of thing lame. OP also suggested she would get hateful messages in her inbox which is another political mischaracterization. It is a cheap shot that attempts to make the pro-choice movement look like the radical group, rather than the group that radicalizes people until they go into abortion clinics with guns. Yes I was condescending when responding to these ridiculous points. Everywhere else I was respectful.

For example, many arguments that license abortion also license killing infants.

Please, tell me more about how Pro Choice arguments support killing infants. I expect a generous use of slippery slope reasoning.

[–]DatFicklePickle [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

She was being misleading, deliberately. Turns out she is catholic. Fr me, that invalidates every attempt at 'intellectual argument' she migt have tried to argue for pro-life. Mnecause ultimately, her view is born out of religion, and she tried to skirt that issie, deliberately, knowing how invalid it would be.

And I'm just LOL at the "how many scars there are in the world" bullshit. A lot of scars exist in the world thanks to religion, thanks to Catholicism specifically even.

If she wants to hold up her flag to be a victim and be hated by reddit, whatever, I'll bite. I think pretty poorly someone who lives on faith-based ideologies. I think poorly of someone who is a me,ber of and financially cntributes to a group where sexual assault, rape, repeated molestation was covered up FROM THE TOP OF THE ORGANIZATION repeatedly, for years. Where known abusers were simply moved to a new victim-pool instead of being disrobed, excommunicated and prosecuted. Where Holocaust deniers have been sheltered and allowed to preach.
Where rampant abuse of young women (mental, physical, sexual) took place for years and years in Ireland in Catholic homes for girls and no one gave a fuck. Where the Pope cruised around in his Pope-mobile through several African nations spreading LIES about condoms as prophylactics.

Fuck catholicism.

And OP, fuck you for trying to pretend that your catholicism isnt the reason for your pro-life baiting.You're here asking people to PROVE things to you, that people need to examine the other side. Have you lived an EXAMINED life? I doubt your powers of introspection if you're a practicing catholic, for many many reasons.

[–]waterofbody [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

How has r/the_donald terrorized reddit?

[–]IdRatherBeTweeting [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's been such a big problem that the issue has been covered by various media outlets. Try googling it for one of their explanations.

[–]sezit 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think I love you. Everything you said here I agree with, and could not have said better. Thank you.

[–]IdRatherBeTweeting 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love you too, internet stranger.

[–]justkeeplaughing 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love that you took the time to do this. This is brilliant. Thank you.

[–]LilyBelle69 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your explanation was gold.

[–]hanszzz [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yaaaaas queen of the rational argument!

[–]fluffstermcmuffin 127 ポイント128 ポイント  (17子コメント)

I support your right to believe what you want, even though I fundamentally disagree with it. You won't get any hate from me.

That being said, I think the reason why you may run into trouble with this is that you feel it is okay to dictate what other women "deserve" to do with their body. Many people feel like they deserve to make that choice, not have it dictated for them.

It is a very complex topic that brings up many difficult issues. Your side of this has a very hard line. It is bound to stir up some feelings.

[–]StephieBergLettuce 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I know I'm going to get downvoted to death, but if you accept the premise that a developing fetus is an independent person with rights, then abortion is murder and the law should stop it by any means. Pro-life people simply don't accept the idea that abortion is a decision pertaining to "your body" and instead see the failure to pass laws against it as allowing women to dictate to unborn persons. Just to be clear, I am very pro-choice, but I think I a lot of people on my end of the issue fail to fairly represent the other side's position.

[–]DatFicklePickle [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

More than 80% of abortions are carried out at the embryonic stage. A foetus is not a person, or an independent being with will, desire, knowledge - and an embryo is even further removed from that.

Abortion is not murder. An embryo is not a person. Your premise can not be accepted.

Goodbye.

[–]hanszzz [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

She literally wrote that it's not her premise, she is merely playing devil's advocate so both sides are represented. Take your hate somewhere else. Goodbye.

[–]Wonderingaboutsth1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Does a fetus have the ability to think, or a conscience, or emotions at all? I don't think it does.

[–]sweetfumblebee [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

From what I understand there are a ton of embryos that won't make it past that stage at fertility clinics. I admit I haven't been able to do more than a quick google search so I may be very wrong.

But if that's true, then I find it hard to believe pro-lifers believe that embryos are babies if they don't fight to shut them down.

[–]anusthrasher96 90 ポイント91 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Translation: if you don't like/agree with abortions, don't get one. You can't impose your ideas upon others.

[–]WayiiTM 53 ポイント54 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It is not that I and many others are against you, as you clearly post that you believe but that we are often incensed that people self-identifying as "pro-life" are actually presenting as anti choice.

I have a number of self professed "right to life" embracers in my family. I adore them as people and regard them very highly despite our deep disconnect in stance on this issue. While abortion is anathema to them, they are behind our wars and aren't against the death penalty. This is true of the majority of "pro lifers" I have met and spoken with.

Your vision of a world where no woman had a choice over whether or not to carry and deliver a child is the stuff of sweating nightmares to me and many like me. The lack of choice over something so... invasive is not in my estimation something that should be denied to another human being. I'm cool with women who would never consider it and find it heinous -- that is their choice and their right. If it is a religious thing, they can throw their own reproductive rights straight out the window and sing hosannas and I'm cool with that too. That is the joy of religious freedom.

But all of those are and should remain PERSONAL CHOICES and the religious freedom of others ends where my freedoms begin. I will fight for your right to follow your faith and your feelings and freedoms right up to the point where you work to take away mine.

This is the position of this reasonable, live and let live pro choice woman. I deserve a society where we all have a choice and a say. I don't despise you. I just disagree with you. And maybe find some of your ideas scary.

[–]=^..^=birdinthebush74 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Stuff of sweating nightmares" it's the same for me !

[–]Imnotananimalyouare 68 ポイント69 ポイント  (9子コメント)

This is a brave question so i upvoted you, but if you really can't understand why we need the right to choose then you are not trying very hard. I will always put the life of a woman above the potential life of a child. Communities that have safe and legal access to abortions are better places to live because women get to participate in the economy.

My abortion was the best decision of my life. Now that I'm married and have a daughter if I got pregnant I would have another abortion. I can't work if I'm pregnant and my family and I cant afford for me not to work. Pregnancies are dangerous and mine did not go well. It's much safer for me to have an abortion than a pregnancy.

Just looking at the state of our foster system has also convinced me some kids are better off never being born.

[–]nkdeck07 113 ポイント114 ポイント  (9子コメント)

The society you speak of isn't the one we live in now. The one we live in now has birth control at a premium and with children that grow up unwanted, unloved and neglected, born to mother's in poverty. Soon as we reach the society your thinking of I will agree with you. Since we don't, abortion is critical

[–]Bish_pudding [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Society AND medicine are not ideal yet. For example, a miscarriage and a medical abortion can appear nearly identical. So if abortions are illegal, there's a chance a woman who miscarried a desired could get charged with a crime. If pro lifers had reasonable ideals and weren't playing such hard and fast rules, I think we could understand them better, but as a 30 yr old woman who has never been pregnant and probably wont be able to carry to term due to past surgeries and fighting cervical cancer, it terrifies me to think that some unsympathetic law would come between me and my doctor when dealing with health issues that are already hard enough to handle.

[–]sezit 56 ポイント57 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What I find interesting are stories from clinic workers. Every single clinic has had multiple protesters come in for abortions, then go right back to protesting. For these "pro-lifers", the only justifiable abortion is their abortion. Thats why I can't take them seriously... they not only are unable to run their own lives in the way they think is right, but they think they have some special sauce that makes them more right than you.

So, OP here's a question for you: you have exactly the same info that everyone else does. But some people have decided differently than you, and your side has been unable to convince them. Why are you more right than they are?

[–]DConstructed 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm all for nonexistent.

But in order to do that you'd have to be able to guarantee that no one would ever get pregnant with a child they don't want and/or can't raise. And no it's not acceptable that they be forced to carry it for nine months.

Until then unfortunately I can't see any way it would be unthinkable.

I don't hate you I just disagree with you.

[–]AprilSpectrum 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The reason is because many pro lifers prioritize the fetus over the woman.

I too would love a world where there was no abortion - if it was because there was no more need for abortion.

If a safe, 100% effect form of contraception existed, and accurate, comprehensive sex education, so that no unplanned, unwanted pregnancies occurred, I would be one million percent happy.

But that world doesn't exist yet. And until it does, abortion is a necessary health care service.

[–]HoodwinkingGnome 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm pro choice and I don't hate pro lifers. But I don't think your opinion should change what I can do with my body. Unfortunately, many people who are pro life don't really like to be reminded that pregnancy and birth are inherently risky for women. I and my son nearly died during birth. So to force a woman to go through that scenario is forcing her to take on risks.

Another factor for me is that there are many women who should not have children and if they are forced to then the children and the mother probably suffer. I grew up in an abusive house because my mother shouldn't have had children. The damage it has done on me and my siblings is enormous. I also think if adoption is preferred by pro lifers in this scenario they also forget the psychological impact on the woman and the children.

I also think that as a animal species we need to recognise that it is normal and natural for animals to kill their young if sick/unviable. We are able to this in-utero to prevent suffering for that fetus/baby.

I think it is worse to enact physical or mental harm on someone than to "kill" a fetus before it is actually in existence on this earth. Valuing the life of a yet to be properly alive and existing fetus over that of those already existing seems illogical to me.

[–]ConsolationOfPhilo 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can you articulate your position as to why you find abortion problematic?

[–]DreChan 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I try to live and let live as much as possible, but to me the debate of Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice is somewhat different from most arguments. For example, in the case of the world being flat vs. the world being NOT flat those would generally be the two sides of the argument. But if you put it in terms of the argument currently being fought over abortion it would be: People who think the world is flat Vs. People who think the world could be flat or not. I can't respect your argument because for you there is no debate, there is no choice. On my side, I'm telling you that you are free to do as you see fit with your own body. On yours, you're telling me that you hope for the day when I won't ever get to choose. Also, it's hard to respect a side of the argument when so many proponents of it use rhetoric that attempts to morally shame people as you did in your original posting when you said "because I seem to care about the mother and her child". I can understand how you might feel that you are righteously championing for all the voiceless unborn children. But that's not what it looks like to me. To me, you are the dangerously ignorant, an example that an education is not an imperative to reason.

[–]Always_Confusion 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm the pro life person you all seem to despise - I think women deserve a society where abortion is unthinkable and nonexistent.

I think that's the issue. Everyone wants that society unless they're a monster. The problem is that society does not exist and probably never will sadly, and you have to acknowledge that uncomfortable truth.

Your new wave feminist link points to "pro-abortion" views, where people due to circumstances are practically coerced into having abortions. Most of us here are not pro-abortion, we are pro-choice AKA pro-personal bodily autonomy.

Thing is, when that baby is born someone has to raise it. If the child is a product of rape, the mother just does not want a kid for whatever reason(financial, emotional, life change recently occurred, age, health, baby's health, etc), they should be allowed to get an abortion. A person in a difficult position should not be looked down upon whether they abort, continue a pregnancy or put the child up for adoption.

Furthermore, intense pro-life ignores health problems that can arise. If you're going to most likely die by continuing your pregnancy, would it not make more sense to abort and live longer to actually raise children with you in the picture? If your baby has a severe genetic defect incompatible with life(which ideally should cause miscarriage, but nature ain't perfect), is it not more ideal to abort than to go through the pregnancy and have your child spend a measly hour in the world or worse have to raise a severely disabled child you knew you were in no position to raise and having to deal with that yourself emotionally in either circumstance?

That is why I'm pro-choice. Having an abortion is not an easy decision. One does not stroll into an abortion clinic happy and smiling and ready to face the day. Abortion does carry risks to the mother too after all.

Should the world be nice and happy where every baby could be born happy, healthy and taken care of? Yes of course, but that's a utopian dream. Everyone should be able to choose themselves what they want, because the alternative is far worse. Forced pregnancies, an uptick of dangerous births and a lot more severely disabled(physically and/or mentally) children parents don't have the capacity to take care of or children that parents have to see die before their first birthday due to forced pregnancy sounds pretty damn dystopian to me in contrast to those beautiful ideals.

[–]notsoinsaneguy 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

People don't hate pro-lifers, they hate pro-life. Many people here lead happy lives only because of the fact that the were allowed to make the choices they needed to make. Under a different set of rules, many of the people here would be single mothers living in poverty. Imagine if you had gotten pregnant at 18. It would have been very unlikely that you would end up where you are now. Certainly not by your mid-20's. Would you give up everything that you currently have for an unborn child? If some mother on the verge of aborting her child said 'If you choose not to finish your PhD and forfeit your undergraduate degree, I will choose not to get an abortion', would you honestly take her up on that offer? Because that's exactly what is at stake here.

[–]exprdppprspray 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You might have received some downvotes merely for your position, but probably most of your downvotes were due to the fact that you posted some links (including one to Wikipedia of all places) and slapped up a few poorly elaborated sentences in which you barely explained your view.

[–]DatFicklePickle 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That and the absolute bullshit of 'prove me wrong', you can fuck several planets off with that self-important bullshit. Clearly here to bait.

[–]CptnSanFransisko 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wanting to control other women's bodies isn't very feminist. If you don't want an abortion, fine, just don't force your views on other people. It's not your business at all.

[–]idothingsheren 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Every sub is a circlejerk / circleflick to an extent, especially the political ones. Users congregate to the subs that share their political beliefs, and shy away from the ones they disagree with. There are plenty of women out there who are anti-abortion, but you won't find many on 2X

[–]yuliajunkie 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's her body. That's why.

In general, it terrifies me that I wouldn't have rights to my own body. And what with obstetrics violence on the rise, it is scary to think you could lose rights to your body because of another 'being.' Name ONE other scenario where you lose rights, without committing a crime, to what you can do with your body.

And given your background, I would say if you ever needed an abortion you'd be able to get a D&C. You DO NOT KNOW what it's like until it happens to you.

Instead of making abortion unthinkable, I would want a world where if a woman wants to have a child/carry her pregnancy to term, she is given the resources or feels she can. I do not want to force someone to do it. That'll just create more problems.

[–]Allthenamesareregone 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In my experience, people with engineering degrees have a bias toward all or nothing, or right/wrong thinking. They have little grasp of grey areas. That's just fine when deciding how much support to put under a bridge. It does not work well in society.

What you are saying is that you are a well-to-do person, almost undoubtedly from a well-to-do background, almost undoubtedly white. And you can't imagine how a woman who is poor, or has health issues, or has been raped, could possibly feel.

I don't mind at all that you yourself would never consider having an abortion. More power to you. But you simply have no right telling other women - women who have problems you can't seem to even imagine - how to live their lives.

If you seriously want to end abortion, then do those things that reduce abortion - fight for living wages for everyone, and support universal health coverage, and subsidized child care. With your money and position, you could have some influence.

[–]emeraldgs 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How do I feel about women who are anti-choice? Put simply, it sucks, but I'm not going to be hateful about it.

I call people who are against abortion anti-choice because people who are not against abortion are not against life. Hence, It's a silly term (pro-life). People who support the choice to have an abortion support people in their decisions to bear life, or not to.

Anyways, like I said, I think people who are anti-choice are usually good people, and sometimes even smart. But, it's taking a moral stance on an issue that truly is a public health and maternal health issue, a very serious one (I work in reproductive health). I am completely ok with individual women taking a stand and saying they will never have an abortion, and even going so far to say that they hate abortion, find it sad, and want to make it less common. But, at the end of the day, we live in a world where often times it is not a blessing to be pregnant and bear a child. A world where often times a person becomes pregnant is the last thing she needs and wants to have a happy and healthy life.

And for you, and people who hold your views to say that this person should not have the right to end the life of a fetus that DEPENDS on her to continue to live; I think is short-sighted, sad, and not seeing the big picture. I think we get really into grey area when talking about WHEN abortion access should be restricted (5 months, 6...etc.), but given that most abortions occur in the first trimester, that is less of a concern for me.

In sum, I don't hate people or women or feminists who do not support a persons right to choose how to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. I do, however, think that it's a less-smart stance to take when it comes to thinking about the health and well-being of future generations and of our planet. Take care.

[–]Halp. Am stuck on reddit.sangetencre 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

First, who cares what Norma McCorvey thinks? This isn't about her. She was a catalyst who had the right case at the right time. If it hasn't been her, it would've been someone else.

And I'm not surprised that you don't feel welcome in feminist spaces because traditional "pro life" views totally subvert women's autonomy in favor of focusing on a non-cognizant embryo or fetus and positing that, once women have sex, we have less rights than a corpse should that sex happen to produce a zygote, etc.

Abortions have always been and will always be a thing that exists, whether in the light and safety of medical facilities or in the backroom of someone's house.

You won't end them.

But if you want to reduce them, you help to provide education and healthcare and reliable birth control.

[–]bartdaddi 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Abortions have been happening since humans started having kids.

Noday wants an abortion... until they get raped, or the preganancy is going to kill them, or thier 10 year old kid gets raped.

Its a fucked up word we live in, you need choices.

[–]parannoyedandroid 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have a phobia of pregnancy and childbirth, I think that both processes seem absolutely barbaric and it disgusts me that there are people who think I should have to go through it against my will. Because a ball of cells is more important than my mental health and well-being? I take every appropriate measure to not become pregnant. If I did and I couldn't abort, I would probably kill myself. That's my problem with prolife people. It's very personal to me.

Regardless of your ideal - that every woman who becomes pregnant has the social and financial resources to have children/ a family - doesn't change a damn thing about how traumatic pregnancy and childbirth are. Like, forget after the birth; I'm way more concerned about the devastating effects of carrying and birthing a baby.

[–]robynrho 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are a very twisted person if you believe you can be a feminist, yet believe your opinion should trump another female's right to her own body.

[–]ncbinlmnihgov 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In a society that bans abortion, you're forcing another person to bow to your beliefs. A person who wants an abortion in a society that bans abortion is forced to concede the fact or find a back-alley. In a society that allows abortion, those who disagree with abortion are more than welcome to not have abortions.

I'm technically not sterile, but have some complications with my uterus that makes it impossible for me to have a baby. When I was a teen and didn't have the best sex ed or access to birth control (Thanks for nothing, Texas!), I had my first miscarriage. It was one of the most painful experiences of my life, both physically and emotionally. In between the ages of 16 and 19, I had no access to birth control and I had 2 miscarriages. In the even that I'd become pregnant again (not likely but possible-- i'm a lesbian and have an implant besides), I'd much more prefer to have an abortion than to go through another miscarriage.

Why I'm so hostile against pro life women is because their ideals, and their "society where abortion is unthinkable and nonexistent" is a society where I'd be forced to undergo another miscarriage instead of willingly going through a medical procedure. The "baby" (and it is just a sack of tissue at the point things go bad, I've held it in my hands goddammit) will die either way, but one way is vastly more dangerous and painful for me. One I have to clean up after, the other I'm being taken care of.

[–]=^..^=birdinthebush74 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How do you plan on making abortion unthinkable ? Not all women want children, as a childfree women I am not prepared to give up my bodily autonomy for nine months if my contraception failed . I have no problem with you trying to decrease abortion ( in fact I think it's honourable ) by encouraging contraception and good sex education . Just try to understand not all women want to be mothers and by trying to ban early abortion you are valuing a women bodily autonomy less than that of a lentil sized embryo, that's not my definition of feminism

[–]johnn48 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why do you have more compassion for a fetus then a newborn. Programs to assist new mothers are routinely cut in the name of "fiscal responsibility". Reductions in the need for abortions by making low cost birth control possible are cut. Sex education for teens is prohibited, Plan Parenthood clinics are defunded. In other words all attempts to make abortions unnecessary are blocked and then pregnant mothers are left with no options but to have an unwanted child. Then the moral police can talk about those immoral single mothers on welfare. How does anyone think that a mother wants to have an abortion. Even I as a man know the heartbreak a women must feel faced with that choice.

[–]damage3245 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because if prolife people get their way then the lifes of pro-choice people may be worse? That's the first reason I can think of off the top of my head.

[–]-ChanandlerBong- 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have a question for you. Do you believe that all lives are equal? Including the ones they call fetus?

You are about to read a scenario. Purely hypothetical. Yes it will probably never happen but please do try and imagine it's real.

You have been kidnapped by a masked figure. They want to play a game. You are being forced to make a decision. You must either give the okay for a young girl to get an abortion or condemn another ten year old girl to death. If you make a decision you can leave. If you don’t both girls, and you, die. The masked figure promises you that if you do not make a choice he will kill both the girls. however there is no way to be 100% percent sure of their resolve to follow through with either deed… they seem crazy enough to go through with it, I mean they kidnapped you and put you in what looks like to be the outside of an interrogation room. Looking into the room you see the two girls whose future depends on you. The young girl being threatened with death seems oblivious to her situation, she is sitting waiting patiently nervously tugging at her skirt. The masked figure tells you she has been promised a slice of cake, if you decide to kill her then it will be laced with a deadly amount of arsenic. The other appears to be laying on a hospital bed asleep and peaceful, doctors at the ready. Why would they bother setting all this up if they weren’t capable of following through? But you know for absolute sure if you make a decision the figure would follow through with your decision and let you go.

Can’t answer that one? Okay. Let’s make it easier. Instead of poisoning the girl it is now dismembering her, piece by piece. Starting with her fingers and toes, moving up to her hands and feet, until all that is left is her torso. She’ll survive but well…. Or you allow the abortion. If you don’t answer both girls, and you, die.

What if the the young girl waiting for her abortion was a ten year old girl who was raped? How would you answer then?

I think it is ridiculous to think that we should live in a society where it is 'unthinkable'. Think about it. Think about it real hard. If faced with these situations what would you choose? Is there really no right time for an abortion? There is a post on the front page right now about a ten year old girl that was raped, the assaulter got a life sentence, and she had a baby at great risk to her physical health and already damaged emotional health.

[–]Littlewifey 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I completely agree with you.

Society should allow every single woman anywhere in the world to have their child and raise him without other burdens or worries.

But this would need changes at the very root of the system and should be equal for men and women.

Contraception should have a 100% rate of success so that there are no accidents and rape should be non existant as to avoid pregnancy in women who don't take contraception. I'm sure many other factors would impact this too besides these two simple ones. It's either that or absolute abstinrnce unless you're trying to conceive.

None of these are viable options right now. I don't support abortion but I support the woman's right to chose in the current society because there is so much stigma associated to teen or single moms, so many risks of pregnancy through contraception failure or "foul play" and some parents are so strict that a pregnancy out of marriage could lead to potential life threatening situations to so many women. I could be harsh here and say "if you don't want a baby, don't have sex" but then again there is still a possibility of rape.

You can be a feminist without agreeing with some views that the majority (or not) of feminists believe in. I don't call myself a feminist because I don't want to be associated with some movements I disagree with. We all have our personal beliefs and don't need to label ourselves. We all benefited from feminism in it's early years and I'm so incredibly grateful for that but I think the most important fights have already been fought. (Hate me, or elucidate me).

[–]DerivativeMonster 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you regularly give blood? Have you donated a kidney? What about a liver chunk? Bone marrow? All of that saves lives too.

[–]ieatcheese1 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because if you cared about the mother, you'd let her choose whatever is best for her current situation. If you were a feminist, you wouldn't want to make a decision for another woman.

[–]stuckinsuburbs 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

While yes you are trying to dispel us that you aren't religious but an intelligent person. I think you can be pro life BUT shouldn't try to force ideas or the way the law is written to force women to make an already difficult choice even harder.

Statistically most women either a) get on average 1-2 abortions b) have the abortion in their early 20s and the second demographic is 40s c) can not finically be able to care for a child d) the complications of pregnancy. Genetic defects, mothers risk of carrying to term, etc e) Laws that are so restrictive to birth control having more pregnancies and less abortions f) birth control failing

As someone who is still pursing school like yourself and who isn't finically independent I can't take time off from school give birtrh to a child and expect my parents to care for the child. Honestly I rather have a simple safe procedure.

[–]Kelpai 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why don't you check how is life in countries that already banned abortion or severely restricted it? Would you say those are societies where women are happy and population is not fighting for existence, but rather enjoying life?

[–]Apocalypte [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Because women are maimed and die in societies where abortion is heavily restricted, also abortion restrictions disproportionately affect those who can least afford to have (more) children.

To me a hard pro - life position shows a real lack of empathy and a willingness to push their beliefs (religious or otherwise) in your face, not good qualities in a person.

I'm Irish but living in the UK these days. We've seen the effects that a constitutional prohibition has on women. It's pretty horrific.

[–]Queentoad1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If you want to have children, go ahead and have them.

If you don't want children, do whatever you need to do to avoid them.

Seems pretty simple to me. But I'm old, and to me death is just another part of life.

[–]Susan102 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

"I think women deserve a society where abortion is unthinkable and nonexistent."

I think women deserve a society where abortion is simply unnecessary, because women are no longer stuck with unwanted pregnancies. That is more likely to happen in a society where women get unlimited access to free or low-cost contraception, plus lots of information on how to avoid the burden of unwanted pregnancy if a girl or woman is unable to use birth control for some reason. More unwanted pregnancies being prevented means less abortions being necessary.

So, given that wider access to free or low-cost birth control reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies -- and possible abortions -- significantly, why do backward Republican politicians continue to block such programs? I think the reason is a simple one; they don't WANT girls and young women being able to avoid unwanted pregnancy. They want more girls and women to get pregnant and become mothers, whether these girls and women want to reproduce or not.

[–]Susan102 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

"And I'd like to call myself a feminist - but I do not feel welcome at feminist events because I seem to care about the mother and her child."

Anti-choice viewpoints are the polar opposite of feminism. If you truly believe a woman should be forced to stay pregnant and give birth against her will, then don't be too surprised that pro-choice women are hostile.

Forcing a woman to stay pregnant and give birth against her will is barbaric. And that's exactly what anti-choicers are in favor of, no matter how many times they deny it.