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When this is, that is (self.zen)

chintokkong が 投稿

That shadow in the guest’s cup never was a snake. How clear, in a dream, the three worlds are. When you wake, all is empty, all the myriad worlds are none.

The ogre outside shoves the door,

The ogre inside holds it fast.

Dripping sweat from head to tail

Battling for their very lives,

They keep it up throughout the night

Until at last when the dawn appears

Their laughter fills the early light –

They were friends from the first.

  • Hakuin

I am no scholar but I find the recent discussion of zen is, buddhism is, interesting. Appreciate those who spent the time and effort to share the good stuff they have read/experienced.

When we think the shadow in the cup is a snake, we are ogres. When we realise the snake is an illusion, we are friends.

East of me, the old lady got rich three or four years ago.

Used to be poorer than me, now she laughs that I don’t have money.

She laughs that I’ve fallen behind.

I laugh that she’s gotten ahead.

Both of us laughing, no stopping us. East, and West.

  • Hanshan
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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]TheSolarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (26子コメント)

The discussion is one I find sad more than interesting.

Zen is a presentation of the Buddha Dharma, with a method behind it.

Somehow, and it's really kind of staggering that anyone could think this way, they've missed that point.

[–]chintokkong[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (19子コメント)

I guess what we know is always limited by the experiences we have. It's like the white swan problem - until we see a single black swan, we can't help but feel all swans are white (especially since all our experience is only of white swans).

I used to think all these buddhist stuff and meditation stuff are superstitious. Until I reached a fairly desperate point in my life and was eventually lucky enough to have an interesting experience through huatou which loosened my rigid worldview. Joseph Goldstein said it well with this:

Can we remain open to possibilities of things we do not yet know for ourselves, with neither blind belief nor blind disbelief?

Faith is not something we can force upon. But if we feel something is good, then we put it upon ourselves to share it. That's just how it goes I guess.

[–]TheSolarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (18子コメント)

This is getting the point where I stop discussing things on open forums.

I can concur though, that unless you've had the experience, it is fairly difficult to comprehend let alone explain to someone else.

[–]chintokkong[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Oh, I actually feel there are a significant number of people reading this sub who actually appreciates good stuff being posted. The majority may not be as vocal and prominent but they do exist. If you are thinking of posting, post something good for them.

Ewk is just a dishonest and pretentious redditor who is blessed with lots of free time. I think most people do recognise that. The downvotes he's receiving is one such likely indicator. And he's resorting to upvoting himself though he doesn't have the courage to admit it, as shown in this thread. He would claim it's misclick, hahaha!

[–]Linchimodo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

🔔

reply with silence to silence the bell

[–]TheSolarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I have posted many good things. The mods have deleted a few.

Ewk has very serious psychological problems. Perceiving this, I am not overly harsh on him, nor do I mock him, as I do not see that that would help.

He lies all the time, or....appears to lie.

Does ewk lie? Or is he so delusional that he believes that which is not true? I'm not sure.

Thus, I am hesitant to call ewk a liar, even when what he says is manifestly untrue, lest I call the deranged dishonest, which would not be accurate.

[–]Linchimodo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

🔔

reply with silence to silence the bell

[–]TheSolarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have accepted your point earlier, but that approach is not suitable in all areas.

I appreciate your advice, and I do not discount it.

But consider what that has accomplished thus far.

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

/u/negativegpa

[–]NegativeGPA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

People say lots of things

If they really wanna play ball in the theory-court, they gotta be able to break it down into their reasoned steps, baby

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Ohhh so I keep trying to get non theory-willing people to be theory willing. I theorize I am blind to this.

So if people don't want to discuss details or answer questions they are not cooperatively arguing, so, there you go!

[–]NegativeGPA 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

My smartest friend fucked this girl I'm friends with

She told him "I don't want just a sexual relationship"

So then they spend awhile together and then bang, and then after a week he hits her up and has her come over and keeps trying to make out with her til she gives in

Then, halfway through sex #2, she just decides to leave

Now, he's mindblown that this happened

He's my best friend, and I am also friends with her from before they met (tinder)

So, I hear it from both sides

Anyways, he tells me about all this

I'm not one to judge for like the only hitting her up to bang, but I'm trying to get him to realize that the messing up on his part was ignoring the "I don't want to just have a sexual relationship"

So he tries giving like "she knew what she was getting into/just said that, etc" speech

At one point, he's like "dude, I literally just wanted you to tell me I did nothing wrong"

Now, this is one of the most intelligent people I've ever met. Successful, fit, clever, social, etc

So I had a bit of a moment going "wow, the smartest can still like self deceive". So I keep grilling him and he switches tactics and tries knocking me off the trail by bringing up my family, my ex girlfriends, etc

Rhetoric!

And this is one of my best bros!

Moral of the story is that super smart people still need some refining sometimes to get past an "automatic" reaction to deny deny deny when they are worried that they might be in the wrong

Which is funny from the zen sense since they themselves are what put them "in the wrong"

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

yeah! habits are next level confusion

brain-life is weird too

i have a friend with the same thing lol but i think recently he got a level-up in the matter, less situations like that.

[–]NegativeGPA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Doesn't Reddit have you upvote yourself by default?

[–]chintokkong[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

His comment had two votes almost immediately after posted.

[–]NegativeGPA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Which one?

[–]chintokkong[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The one where he said Hakuin wasn't a zen master. It's the very first comment of my OP.

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

zen has a method?
like 'Mu, mu mu mu mu mu' ?

[–]TheSolarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

What is Zen generally defined as would you say?

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Hm. What the collection of 'zen' material delivers to people is in mumonkan. I don't know how I'd characterize it and I'm bad at descriptions. But I think the experience of mumonkan (this is my specific bright memory) isnt really captures le and deliverable in description. Ewk says it's special cheese. I think the BCR and lots of random sentences from all sources, are worth sharing and explaining and teaching.

Zen for me isn't anything. But I have magic powers so that's dope.

If this isn't the response you wanted, let me know and I'll not be whatever annoyed you.

[–]TheSolarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I had no 'want' for any particular response. I just find it odd in that at least from one point of view, Zen is quite well defined.

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Which point of view and which definition?

[–]TheSolarian -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Uh...the generally understood definition of the word, and the generally understood definition of what Zen, or if you like, Zen practice entails.

[–]ewk -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (48子コメント)

Hakuin wasn't a Zen Master. Here's an example of his less quoted work as an illustration of why he wasn't, and why he isn't somebody anybody wants to study:

Here I said: 'I have listened to your words with respect, and I will cease from my Zen meditation for a time and will take the opportunity of trying hard to tranquilize myself. What I am afraid of is what Rishisai called a tendency to diarrhea, and if I keep my mind on one place will not my spirit and my blood become stagnant?

[–]chintokkong[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (26子コメント)

I am sure you have your opinions of who is and isn't a zen teacher, not a problem. But not quite sure the point of your quote, especially without the context.

And it's cool you got an upvote almost immediately after you posted this comment. I didn't, but I guess someone likes you a lot.

[–]ewk -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (25子コメント)

I wouldn't worry about the upvote. Probably a misclick.

I'm saying that Hakuin was quack and contrasting the stuff he said that sounds like it might make sense with stuff that people don't talk about much.

[–]padmagarbha 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

misclick.

[–]chintokkong[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Oh, that's interesting. That someone must be very careless because such an immediate 'misclick' has happened several times in our previous exchanges. You might want to tell that someone to be careful? Others might see such carelessness as vote manipulation.

As to the part about contrasting stuff Hakuin said, it still doesn't show anything about him as not a zen teacher. You might want to give the context to your quote:

Here I said: 'I have listened to your words with respect, and I will cease from my Zen meditation for a time and will take the opportunity of trying hard to tranquilize myself. What I am afraid of is what Rishisai called a tendency to diarrhea, and if I keep my mind on one place will not my spirit and my blood become stagnant?

[–]NegativeGPA 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (10子コメント)

It seems strange to go after ewk as the vote manipulator because he's the guy who gets to -3 on half he stuff he says within minutes of what is quite clearly a group that downvotes almost everything he says

Grass_skirt accidentally copied and pasted a quote along with the Reddit extension's vote counter for a user which revealed that he's downvoted ewk at least 1000 times. That's kinda weird

[–]chintokkong[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Mmm... you actually think I'm going after ewk about vote manipulation? The real issue here is not about the votes. It's about dishonesty.

You might want to copy-and-paste my exchanges with him on maybe a word document, change the usernames and ask a few astute non-reddit real-life friends (pls include ladies who have good instincts about people) to read and give their comments. It should be interesting to hear what they have to say.

[–]Linchimodo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

🔔

reply with silence to silence the bell

[–]NegativeGPA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Dishonesty being the manipulating one's votes? If so, then the existence of such dishonesty is reliant upon the existence of vote manipulation

I did show my friend the initial exchange between ewk and tostono earlier. That was kinda cool to see a normal person analyze

[–]Linchimodo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

🔔

reply with silence to silence the bell

[–]NegativeGPA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know this breaks the rule, but I genuinely like this. It's a nice "hey, take a moment" kinda thing

[–]chintokkong[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

No no no, hahaha, I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny or if you are serious about what you are saying. If you read the full exchange properly, you will note that I have stated this immediate upvoting has happened several times.

Imagine you chatting with me and noticing that very often my comment is upvoted almost immediately. So you tease me about it, and I reply:

"I wouldn't worry about the upvote. Probably a misclick."

Would you find such a reply strange? How do you think a person who has genuinely 'misclick' would react?

[–]NegativeGPA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

(I'm being serious but am trying to add rhetorical devices to display that I don't want to be aggressive or like argumentative. Sort of like trying to say "hey I wanna be your friend and this is a cool thing for us to analyze" bc I think it's easy to think someone on here is trying to "get at you" with the intensity that goes on sometimes, so I just don't want you thinking I'm tryna get at you or anything)

You make a good point, but it made me think of another:

The percentage of times you notice this with ewk is relevant. Since we have such an absurdly large data sample over such a long period of time with his comments, I think it's relevant to take into account trends over the years

Another possibility is that there are people who will occasionally click his username to see his most recent comments to either upvote them or downvote them

It's not out of the ordinary from what I've seen people talk about on default subs

[–]chintokkong[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanks for the bracket reply, appreciate it!

Your statistical approach (probably because of your academic training) is logical but perhaps impractical in daily social dealings. There are simpler ways to make good guesses about people, and that's what skilled zen teachers are supposedly good in - simply converse and probe.

I am trained in 'interviewing' people who are suspected of committing offences. Maybe to do a little shameless boasting, my accuracy rate is fairly high. Everyone leaks, even through just texts. With enough experience, your intuition gets better. Kind of like when you've interacted with enough girls, you somehow get better at detecting who might be attracted to you.

[–]ewk -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I usually only look at reddit mail, and thus I almost never see the voting. Given that my downvotes in 2016 were almost 2k, I think we can dispense with a discussion of voting.

He mixed religious practice and medicine a while bunch. Zen Masters historically weren't that interested.

[–]TwoPines 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your downvotes last year were 2K? Delicious! ;) How are you still here?

[–]chintokkong[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Are you anxious about ending this discussion of 'misclick'?

Anyway, I am not trying to get you banned. I know how wonderful it is to have a place to hang out and chat with others on common topics of interest. Just as how others would find it wonderful to discuss and throw new ideas about zen here. Disagreements are fine because what's the fun if everybody talks exactly the same thing.

He mixed religious practice and medicine a while bunch. Zen Masters historically weren't that interested.

Ok, I think I get where you're coming from.

[–]ewk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Awww... is this you trying to sound sincere?

lol.

[–]chintokkong[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Hahaha, you mean you think I'm trying to get you banned? And that I don't believe having a place to hang out is wonderful? And that it's fun when everybody talks exactly the same thing? Which part is insincere to you?

Not sure if you realise by now that whenever you are anxious/fearful, you resort to distractions. Actually, what's so worrying about this 'misclick' that you keep wanting to end discussion of?

[–]ewk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You can pretend I have all these "feelings" you struggle with... but I'm not like you. I'm like me.

[–]chintokkong[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oh well, since you are unable to clarify which part is insincere, I can only conclude you are self-slapping again.

Have fun.

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wouldn't worry about the upvote. Probably a misclick.

? what

[–]NegativeGPA 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It seems like a self-humbling joke

"lol I'm sure anyone who upvotes me is probably doing it by accident"

[–]TwoPines 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (18子コメント)

You aren't a Zen Master, so what do you know about it? Asking for a friend. ;)

[–]ewk 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Troll follows ewk around to tell ewk, "you haven't attained'.

Why you follow ewk around, troll?

[–]TwoPines 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Sometimes I just happen upon a post of yours, and it strikes me as so sublimely absurd I can't help but post a little comment to that effect, deadbeat. ;)

How many times did you post here last year to get 2K in downvotes !!! ? Did you, like, call random people liars and then welch on bets? :0

Following you around would be a more than full time job, since it seems you post here at least eight hundred and ten thousand times a day. ;)

[–]NegativeGPA 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

We know at least 1,000 of those votes came from grass skirt, and he's one of the more quiet ones about ewk. I wonder if keyser and AltMan (well I guess he can't) would show screenshots of their votes on ewk

Maybe they can beat grass_skirt's score

[–]TwoPines 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't really want to mix too much in the paranoia and weirdness here, which is in my opinion totally out of control. So I was just making a little joke. But I do wonder how an account survives that many downvotes. Is it all about having"Reddit gold"? ;)

[–]NegativeGPA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think the votes on anything here should be taken to have any kind of relation to the comment in question

Too much noise and not enough structure to derive useful conclusions from that data imo

[–]grass_skirtacademic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Currently sitting on -1077. I've upvoted him about 7 times since the Subreddit Stats were revealed.

[–]KeyserSozen -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I bet you and rockytimber can get to the bottom of the conspiracy!

[–]NegativeGPA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It might be interesting, but I've got more interesting things to investigate for the time being

Opportunity cost!

[–]grass_skirtacademic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Exclusive: Keyser Sozen is an Underworld Kingpin. He uses his connections to /r/badEasternPhilosophy to brigade ewk.

[–]KeyserSozen 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

[–]grass_skirtacademic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a big fan of that quote.

[–]ewk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Troll claims ewk is absurd, for like the millionth time.

[–]TwoPines 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

After ewk has been absurd for the ten hundred thousand millionth time. Today. ;)

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

your claims are logically inconsistent

[–]TwoPines -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What claims? Can you name or at least point to one of them? ;)

I've noticed that you are an anonymous account that routinely jumps in on "ewk"'s side in disputes on this sub, and not with any sound reasoning or evidence or anything like that.. Are you aware that he is a proven liar, welcher, and deadbeat? ;)

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I have different theories as to why is is how he is, so I have different classifications for what you've interpreted as welching, etc.

If you don't understand that opinions are subjective, I love explaining shit.

[–]TwoPines 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Welching is welching. A man who reneges on a debt is known as a welcher. A man who lies is known as a liar.

There are facts, which are objective, and interpretations and opinions which are not. If you don't understand this distinction clearly, I will explain it to you. ;)

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/u/toothblanket this first part reminds me of how you said seeing the girl at the gym was so different than your mental simulation of her.