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Does this sub lack viewpoint diversity? (self.zen)

Dhammakayaram が 投稿

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[–]Kaynineteen 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (5子コメント)

This sub has two very great, very loud view points:

  1. Look at this vaguely Asain sounding philosophy, it must be Zen!

And

  1. I'm sorry bro, do you even read the Ewk approved lineage texts?

I only come here about once a week though, so maybe I just hit all the bad times.

[–]ewk -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nope. That's pretty much it.

I think you forgot a voice though.

  1. "Buddhism" is the One Ring, and nobody has to study what Zen Masters say to know that.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sauron needs someone like you, Ewk. Very hostile and a self-confessed character assassin.

Back then I wanted to fight everybody about everything and so I did. I usually won. I have a gift inherited from my maternal grandfather through my mother for character assassination.

[–]ewk -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Alt_troll calls ewk names, pretends he knows ewk because alt_trolls don't have bffs.

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

zen

[–]zaddar17th zen patriarch 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (16子コメント)

retarpation, psychosis, schizophrenia, aspergers, austim, borderline personality, dementia, ptsd

the span is there, but a bit much borderline !

[–]ZippityZoppity 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

What about narcissism and blindness?

[–]zaddar17th zen patriarch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

it was more a dsm collection !

[–]viborg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

No narcissistic personality disorder in the DSM 5? (Sorry I can't access the link here)

[–]zaddar17th zen patriarch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

narcissistic personality disorder in the DSM 5

yeah, its there

i guess its not a term i favour as being that meaningful !

"narcissist" is too loaded a word plus having an elegant legend about it, its use is prejudicial and not objective in the psychiatric context !

[–]viborg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

As a non-expert I would say that some of the more thoughtful analyses of narcissism and egotism are very helpful for understanding human behavior. Not so much in terms of diagnosing pathology but more as general patterns and stages of development that everyone exhibits, to some extent.

[–]Jetstream-SamGrand Marquis of titles 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You forgot cognitively dissonant, that one's my favourite.

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

zen

[–]zaddar17th zen patriarch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

you are right to stick to one word as your sentences are incoherent !

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Hahaha listen man. We could be friends and talk about movies. Or art and share links. Or you could keep favouring your right side of your frontal lobe and continue your depression

[–]zaddar17th zen patriarch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

honestly i have better things to do than converse with half cut dope heads, do me a favour and don't reply to me again

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

....

[–]zaddar17th zen patriarch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

your hippocampus

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

What?

[–]zaddar17th zen patriarch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

well she was dead you notice ?

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

mhm, i did
i also inferred your meaning of my hippocampus being useless

the question is, why would you say that even if it were true?

[–]magicmagininja 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

i bet its mostly white dudes if thays what ur asking

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Looking over the comments, Ewk and a few of his minions (maybe a mod or two?) have demonstrated that this sub does not tolerate all that well "viewpoint diversity."

[–]ewk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Alt_troll claims lack of diversity... because he uses alt_troll accounts.

[–]dec1phahZenIsPsychology...GetOverIt! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (45子コメント)

But isn't that what a forum is meant for: to share AND discuss -which involves arguments?

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (19子コメント)

Ideally, yes—but realistically, no. /r/Buddhism is a perfect example which limits negative news reports about Islam and its interaction with Buddhists. This follows the Reddit policy of banning anyone discussing Orlando nightclub terrorist Omar Mateen’s religion. Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/12/reddit-bans-users-deletes-comments-that-say-orlando-terrorist-was-muslim/#ixzz4SkpLssmH

[–]emerty 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Got to love that username

User “boner_parade” stated that /r/news is actually deleting every post discussing the Orlando shooting, not just those discussing Mateen’s religion

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hard to beat that one.

[–]emerty 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like what you did there.

[–]dec1phahZenIsPsychology...GetOverIt! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Political Correctness... So tired of it.

Facts are facts, right?

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Reddit it appears, buys into the globalist narrative. Be nice to Muslims. Muslims only put 250,000,000 sentient beings to the sword in some 1400 years many of whom were Buddhists. We Buddhists call Islam himsadharma, the violent religion.

[–]dec1phahZenIsPsychology...GetOverIt! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (13子コメント)

The other day I talked to a guy at a party about how it is not reasonable and correct at all to tolerate a religion (Islam) which message is "obey or die". He agreed and said that THIS religion is really dangerous. I said "Yeah, like every abrahamic religion." He said then that he's catholic and that I shouldn't say bad things about it and left.

LOL hypocrisy... hypocrisy everywhere.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

It can even be argued that the roots is Islam are pagan, Allah being the name of a moon god. Islam is not a religion but a barbaric ideology hiding behind religion whose one goal is universal destruction of the human spirit. In 50 generations it has managed to put 250 million people to the sword many of whom were Buddhists.

Edit: Dr. John R. Newman, a historian of religions says, “From the Buddhist point of view Islam is demonic and perverse, a perfect anti-religion which is the antithesis of Buddhism.”

[–]dec1phahZenIsPsychology...GetOverIt! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I thought it was the war of god in the pre-judaic mythology. That fact explained a lot for me.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Muhammad went one step further than his fellow pagan Arabs. While they believed Allah (al-ilah), i.e. the Moon-god, was the greatest of all gods, Muhammad decided that Allah was not only the greatest god but the only god.

According to great Jews like Maimonides Islam is based on the revelations of a "false prophet and an insane man."

[–]dec1phahZenIsPsychology...GetOverIt! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wasn't it Yahwe? And didn't Muhammad "modify" his script and adapt some guidelines to the jewish tradition, because they kicked him out off Mecca before, so his chances to get a comeback gig in Medina were improved?

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Muhammad borrowed as much as necessary from the religions of that region to get converts. He wasn't doing so well in Mecca, so he decided to move to Medina where he became a war lord and a polygamist making up insane proclamations in the name of his god. That Muslims emulate this person is a testament to man's age old stupidity.

In the Kalachakra Tantra of Buddhism it describes Islam as the barbarian religion (mleccha-dharma), describing it as a religion of violence (himsa-dharma) that advocates savage behavior (raudra-karman), and characterizes Allah as a barbarian god, who is a merciless deity of death (mara-devata), a god of darkness comparable to Rahu, the demon who devours the sun and the moon.

[–]ewk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Your religious intolerance toward Islam has come up in this forum before.

Your conduct in the forum suggests that if you had any authority you'd abuse it as much as any church goer.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I speak as a Zen Buddhist who defends the glorious religion of Buddhism. You speak as a hater of Buddhism and a friend of Islam—50 generations of barbarism. This is what our conversation is about.

[–]ewk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

No, you don't. You pretend you do.

You have been unable to define "Buddhism" or show Zen Masters endorsing the core beliefs of the religion you can't define.

You aren't honest. You are also full of anger and hate against people who challenge your imaginary authority. You've been that way on all your alt_troll accounts.

I don't hate Buddhists at all. On the contrary, I admire the Critical Buddhism movement, which has shown bravery and integrity in the face of people like you who make stuff up and use that make believe as a reason to hate.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I suspect that your parents talked to you like this when you were in high school, the bully that you were.

[–]deepthinker420 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (19子コメント)

but everything shouldn't constantly veer towards argument, as it tends to

[–]zenthrowaway17 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (18子コメント)

If you have a forum filled with dozens of people, each with a different viewpoint, isn't it inevitable that pretty much anything that anyone says will be met with some kind of disagreement?

[–]deepthinker420 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

there is a difference between disagreement and the inability to have a conversation

[–]zenthrowaway17 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (8子コメント)

So you agree with me?

[–]deepthinker420 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

i have yet to agree with a single thing you've said about basic decency and good dialogue. but note that i haven't been hostile to you (which would seem to demonstrate that you're not making the right distinctions)

[–]zenthrowaway17 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Hostile?

How hostile can you possibly be on an internet forum?

Unless you plan on hacking my computer and stealing my identity or some other cyber-attack.

Otherwise you have no ability to be hostile.

Your idea of "good" dialogue sounds like my idea of "neutered" dialogue.

[–]deepthinker420 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

lol you're conflating hostility with violence. are you for real?

[–]zenthrowaway17 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I mean, hostility without violence is just...

not very hostile.

I am quite comfortable with non-violent hostility.

[–]deepthinker420 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

hostility can exist without violence. i really don't know where you're getting that from

are you for real though?

[–]elbowbrunchPunch Flavor 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Yup. People think a disagreement means we should come to some sort of understanding, but that's not necessarily what it means. It sometimes means that no you can't come to an understanding. Now you're sharing a home with someone who won't allow you to have your point of view. Is that bad in a Zen forum? I don't know. If you're creating criteria for people that says the way is 'no concepts' and you've been doing it for this long you're a special kind of dumb ass.

[–]zenthrowaway17 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

How long should it take?

[–]elbowbrunchPunch Flavor 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

How long should what take?

[–]zenthrowaway17 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I don't know.

Apparently we were talking about doing something for a long time being a sign of being a dumbass.

[–]elbowbrunchPunch Flavor 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oh, I see what you were asking. Until everyone agrees upon the criteria or someone stops bringing it up.

[–]zenthrowaway17 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Perhaps their goal is not to create rules.

Perhaps their goal is to inspire people by talking about creating rules in a forum that needs no rules.

[–]elbowbrunchPunch Flavor 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Eegads, I'm not ready to go on a zenthroway rabbit hole. Where I go left you go right and if I right you go left. We'll just end up at a 10 hours sponge bob video loop on Youtube or something.

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

zen

[–]dec1phahZenIsPsychology...GetOverIt! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

... my ass :P

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nixon, standing where I stand now said, 'be brave or die'.

So.

[–]dec1phahZenIsPsychology...GetOverIt! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ride or die motherlover!!

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What did I just say?

[–]MizarsAsterism 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's got plenty of viewpoint diversity. What is lacking are active people who are both willing to discuss other viewpoints and people who are willing to have their minds changed.

[–]ewk -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

To be fair, I've learned a whole bunch from them. Most of it is about the academic or religious views that people have tried to substitute for Zen, sure. But still, I've read stuff I never would have imagined even existed before visiting /r/Zen.

Critical Buddhism? Inconsistencies in karma doctrines in the sutras? Dogen's plagiarism in FukanZazenGi?

The first book I ever read with "Zen" in the title was from a Dogen church! I returned it to the library early. Who would have thought that there was so much shady business behind it?

[–]viborg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ewk learned why everyone else is wrong and he's right! No ego there of course, just 100% raging rock-hard righteousness.

[–]ewk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it would be more accurate to say "raging rock-hard scholarship".

While people have been complaining about me for the last four years, I've been reading and posting about the basis of their complaints.

While they have continued to whine and bellyache and use words they can't define like "ego", I've been posting about the fundamental questions underpinning the texts and the scholarship behind Zen and Buddhism.

It's almost unfair.

[–]ewk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Absolutely.

The symptom has two root causes:

  1. Illiteracy. In order for the forum to have diverse views about Wansong's writing style, use of Cases, and view of Qingyuan-Caodong, we'd need to have a bunch of people really familiar with BoS. We don't have that.

  2. Members of the forum has been struggling to accept an identity that isn't the same as /r/Buddhism or /r/Soto. People unwilling to even discuss routinely delete their accounts after being blocked, banned, or "outed" as fringe/cult/unaffiliated.

We've made progress. The sidebar changes, both removing the "Buddhism" from "Zen Buddhism" and adding the Four Statements, made it clear that the forum was, indeed, r/Zen.

Getting people to talk about Zen Masters isn't just a matter of telling them that this isn't a forum about Buddhism or Soto.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Ewk, please inform us when we cannot post anything about Zen Buddhism on this forum anymore. I have heard that you are the de facto, moderator of moderators.

[–]ewk -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (14子コメント)

I note that this ewkfan meltdown came after a week in which:

  1. A longtime religious alt_troll was perma-life-banned.
    • His account persists, and his fan base is continuing to dialogue with him about stuff that isn't Zen.
  2. I posted scholarship about what "Buddhism" means, what defines it, and how the definition can be practically discussed.

Just today we've had two or three threads about how ewk is the problem.

lol.

[–]KeyserSozen 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Wow, so you believe in causality!

[–]ewk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (12子コメント)

I accept that there are times when people who are bound by causality cannot be free of it, yes.

[–]NegativeGPA 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Haha!

I do accept that people who are eating macaroni and cheese cannot avoid eating macaroni and cheese

[–]ewk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Since we are getting all personal and talking about certain usernames, do you eat ketchup on your mac&cheese, or not?

And what did Dogen say about what Bodhidharma preferred?

[–]NegativeGPA 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Blasphemy, I know, but I never really liked Macaroni and cheese

The cheese stuff on the typical types always seemed fake

There was a stage where I'd cover all my vegetables in ketchup tho

If I didn't like the taste of something, just cover it all up in ketchup and voila! No more fighting with my parents at the dinner table

But then I hit puberty and pretty much liked any food that was within reach

Edit. Oh, I missed the Dogen part

I have no idea what Dogen said about Bodhidharma's preferences

[–]ewk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I've been enjoying this idea lately that if you like the noodle, you can find food to eat in every culture.

[–]NegativeGPA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Carbohydrates that can be stored dry and easily cooked? That work with any topping? What's not to love?

Maybe the calories but I mean that's different

[–]KeyserSozen 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

😂😂😂

Still getting the fox case so wrong! Still thinking you're free. Hilarious.

[–]ewk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No argument? No citations? No quotes?

Still need a string of alt_troll accounts to have the nerve to post in the forum?

lol. You are so ashamed of what you pretend that you can't reveal yourself.

[–]mysteryidiot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Who needs a viewpoint?

[–]zenthrowaway17 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope. Seems fine in that regard.

[–]TheSolarian -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (26子コメント)

No.

It has those who know what they're talking about and those who post good things.

Then it has the moderators who don't.

How is that not diversity?

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Except that there are some who want to rid this sub of "Zen Buddhism."

[–]ewk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

/r/ZenBuddhism.

Have a nice trip.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Sorry, but this sub was "Zen Buddhism" before Truthier removed "Buddhism". I hope he wasn't one of your stooges. Someone shared with me is reasoning behind the move which I thought didn't actually make any sense. But that is nothing new on this sub.

[–]ewk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

The reasoning is very simple: Zen is not Buddhism, Zen is opposed to Buddhism in all it's forms.

No Buddhist was able to come forward and define "Buddhism", say what "Buddhists" believe, or defend a claim that Zen Masters were ever Buddhists.

Thus "Buddhism" was removed from the sidebar. Shortly thereafter the Four Statements of Zen were added, and it became clear that the sidebar was opposed to Buddhism, notably the definitive Buddhist doctrines of the 8FP and the 4NT.

Around this time some of the more dishonest fringe "Buddhists" lost it, became completely incoherent in their impotent fury, and either left the forum or got banned for violations of the reddiquette.

[–]Linchimodo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

🔔

reply with silence to silence the bell

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's not reasoning, Ewk. It's a baseless assertion on your part that in no way chimes with the actual history of Zen or what credible scholars of Chinese Zen have to say. According to John R. McRae, “there was never any such thing as an institutionally separate Chan “school” at any time in Chinese Buddhist history” (John R. McRae, Seeing through Zen: Encounter, Transformation, and Genealogy in Chinese Chan Buddhism, 122).

One more point. You appear to have no idea what you are talking about when you try to subsume the Buddha's Dharma, exclusively, under the 8FP or the 4NT. The Buddha teaches Dharma for the sake of final nirvana without clinging (SN 35:75). That's it. He doesn't teach it for any other reason. With that in mind one can clearly see Zen in his teachings. Some other names for nirvana are: unborn, that which is unbecome, that which is uncreated, that which is unconditioned.

[–]ewk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

John McCrae's bias precludes him for having the authority to make blanket unsupported statements about Zen.

Further, your claim that Zen should be subsumed under Buddhist dogma is not based on anything Zen Masters say, and is blatant religious nutbunkery.

You'll note that your claims about Zen aren't supported by Zen Masters, that you haven't done an AMA on any of your alt accounts in /r/Zen, and that you are unable to define Buddhism in terms of core doctrines and link those doctrines to Zen Masters.

You don't have any "reasoning" for me to defeat. You have uninformed religious claims and biased "scholarship" that, in the spirit of religious apologetics, fails to provide evidence.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I choke slammed you through the ring.

[–]ewk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You continue to make claims with no evidence from alt_troll accounts.

You've been beat down more times than a wack-a-mole game at chucky cheese.

Like wack-a-mole, you don't seem to be able to think for yourself, you just repeat the same old claims over and over.

  • can't define "buddhism" or say "what buddists believe".
  • can't quote Zen Masters to prove they think that Zen is part of Buddhism.
  • can't AMA about your beliefs, practices, or studies.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You seem to believe that if you keep saying the same thing over and over again it will, magically, turn into real evidence. It's not working, Ewk. Sometimes I think you have a screw loose.

[–]TheSolarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Those people are deluded.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (8子コメント)

There has been a concerted effort by some on this forum, for a long time, to narrow the discussions on this sub to Zen without Buddhism. Were it to succeed, this would make any discussion about "Zen Buddhism" impossible. In fact, Zen Buddhists would be banned by the moderators.

[–]TheSolarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

That's why they tend to get it all wrong at the end of the day, and make continued errors.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Ain't that the truth! When people, for whatever reason, decide to separate Zen from Buddhism (not really knowing either one) they have, inadvertently, overlooked the fact that Zen is only skillful means. It is not an end in itself. It is only meant to take one to the gnosis of the One Mind (kensho). Then from that vantage point, the journey really begins which is the unfolding of Buddhahood. It's like an embryo (garbha) which matures into something like the last scene in Kubrick's classic 2001: A Space Odyssey, the birth of the "star child" (the global bodhimind child). ;)

[–]TheSolarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I suppose you could put it like that, but I wouldn't. Skillful means, or at least the concept of, pervades all presentations of Buddhism that I am aware of, but of course, I could be wrong.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Zen is a school of Buddhism; nothing more than skillful means. Take Buddhism away and you have the school of the monkey mind.

[–]TheSolarian -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

One way of putting it, I would put it a little differently.

Taking Buddhism away from Zen is impossible to start with. It's like trying to take away the wetness of water.

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Taking Buddhism away from Zen is impossible to start with.

I agree. But this sub would not be past doing just that because a few minds are convinced that Zen, fundamentally, teaches no truth. It is trying to wean us any temptation to seek truth by the use of mockery.

[–]real_human_male -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

How can you rid yourself of something that does not exist?

[–]Dhammakayaram[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As paradoxical as that sounds, we humans are illusory; we don't exist, fundamentally. Yet we seem unable to rid ourselves of the illusion enough to see from what it is composed.

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

zen

[–]ewk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If only we had some people who had the courage to AMA about their beliefs, practices, and studies!

Sadly, vaguely worded complaints appear to be the only "practice" of those people claiming to know what "good" is.

[–]TheSolarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Calm down ewk.

[–]ewk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sounds like you might be upset.

[–]mackowskiim different if the music is -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

zen