全 83 件のコメント

[–]MoLoLu 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The narrative of „not organizing“ mystifies me. Maybe it's just hardcore tankie speak but most anarchists I know do in fact organize – into various causes, when it's required, but not permanently. It seems that collective organizing is the only form they're aware of and voluntary association is forgotten.

Which is sorta surprising to me, because it's voluntary association and individual thought which makes anarchism such a powerful activist movement. There's no need for consensus to push issues into the limelight, no party or program that needs to be adhered to. Even single people and affinity groups can set out alone and make their stand, without the usual trail of organizational chaos that follows in more structured groups.

In practice, this means it's usually anarchist on the vanguard, while the more „organized“ socialists are slow to adapt. They don't put the majority of bodies on the street at least where I live; at any given time, I estimate 40% socialists / communists, 15% anarchists, and the rest being formed from a random association of green-hippie/individualist/liberal leftists.

Without that individualist group tacking on, they'd never get enough people together. Socialist / collectivist thinking is not common under modern, liberal capitalism and trying to recruit people under that premise is exactly why socialists are having such a hard time recruiting. The ideas of a collective identity which one should ascribe to just doesn't appeal to a broad segment of the population, no matter how you turn it.

I also have no idea where the pro-capitalist narrative comes from. I don't know and have never met a single pro-capitalist anarchist, even among „identity anarchists“ who don't participate in activism except when organized through other groups.

[–]l337kid -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

most anarchists I know do in fact organize – into various causes, when it's required, but not permanently.

Also, this is an appropriate argument, but I attempted to inoculate against this when discussing the question of membership in M-L or Communist parties in the third world versus membership in Anarchist groups, and I mentioned that it is pretty dishonest to say that "membership is unknown because people like to keep things informal", because (1.) that can be the case with any organization and (2.) it still doesn't make the argument that anarchist organizations are swelling in numbers, it makes the case that (3.) we don't know how to quantify said organizations, but (4.) the data we have is dwarfed by known Communist/Maoist groups worldwide.

Feel free to make a claim otherwise, with relevant warrants of any kind. I've numbered each separate claim that I'm making for the sake of transparency.


Socialist / collectivist thinking is not common under modern, liberal capitalism

So now you're limiting Anarchist practice to the first world? Even if I admitted you're right (which I don't), the majority of the world's people and the vast majority of the proletariat exist in the periphery where awareness and acceptance of socialism are high. (Think contemporary India, South America, Asia, think about the history of China, Russia, Cuba, Albania, Greece, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, etc)

Socialist / collectivist thinking is not common under the parasitic first world core. You are right about that. The rest of the world has a different experience.

Maybe anarchism is the best bet for agitation in the US. I personally do not think there is much revolutionary potential outside of small marginalized groups of internally colonized and historically disenfranchised people. But I wouldn't recommend those groups "spontaneously organize", anymore than I would recommend to those facing down Hernán Cortés to do anything except swiftly and unmercifully driving him from your lands with the most organized force one can muster.

[–]MoLoLu 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

(1.) that can be the case with any organization [and] (3.) we don't know how to quantify said organizations [and] (4.) the data we have is dwarfed by known Communist/Maoist groups worldwide.

That's kinda the premise of anarchist "organization" though. The idea isn't necessarily to quantify or delimit anarchists from non-anarchists via dedicated groups, but to operate on an individual basis and personal motives. It's a different form of participation and association with larger organizations. It may not hold true for every anarchist either.

(2.) it still doesn't make the argument that anarchist organizations are swelling in numbers

I'd argue anarchists are swelling in number not compared to socialist groups on a whole but rather in the number who support anarchist-inclined or anarchist-friendly groups rather than hiding in the woodwork. As you say it's not really realistic to quantify anarchists through groups. You gotta go via individual motives, which is a completely different metric, and probably leads many anarchists to adopt communist or socialist thought in addition to their anarchist thinking – which seems to be the case given the prevalence of anarcho-communists.

So now you're limiting Anarchist practice to the first world?

Admittedly, that was a bit of a half-arsed argument as – yes – it's rooted in the western world, which is where my personal experience is from (though it isn't an American perspective) and nothing I say runs contrary to your claims of:

the majority of the world's people and the vast majority of the proletariat exist in the periphery where awareness and acceptance of socialism are high.

Except that's my point. Even in countries where socialists are a major force, socialist movements are in no way homogeneous, but built on individual acceptance of certain parts of socialism. You're right saying anarchists are minority and that socialists have a broader support base (depending on country the numbers may vary, but my subjective estimate of 40% socialists more or less aligns with what you are saying). But even then, socialists aren't „huge swathes“ of any population I'm familiar with or have engaged with (this may be different in Asia and South America; I'm not familiar with those and can only look at the US, Europe, and the Middle East with any clarity). Instead, in countries with a socialist bent, it's invariably a solid core of – often politically engaged – socialists supported by a large number individuals & groups of varying ideologies, including a non-trivial number of anarchists.

Just because socialist programs are supported by so many people does not mean all those people are in fact socialists. Socialism draws a large crowd of sympathizers but, at least according to what I've observed, only about half of those who support their various causes also support the party in all its endeavors. They just identify with certain issues promoted by the socialists.

That's what I was getting at. I'm not arguing there are more anarchists. I'm arguing the socialist movement is supported by a larger number of non-socialists than socialists who actually follow the party program.

But I wouldn't recommend those groups "spontaneously organize", anymore than I would recommend to those facing down Hernán Cortés to do anything except swiftly and unmercifully driving him from your lands with the most organized force one can muster.

How do I argue this in any way? What I'm saying is that socialists at present don't draw a large enough crowd of pure socialists to be effective without outside support, even in countries where they're an accepted party or movement, and should be taking that reality into account. The issue here being that individualists (anarchist or otherwise) don't identify with all the party's ideas and socialists are loathe to accept support that isn't completely aligned with their program. While I understand the notion, this circumstance is weakening the socialist movement as a whole because staunch individualists are widespread in all but the poorest regions of the world.

[–]l337kid -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This kind of "callout" thread would never fly in r/communism. There are appropriate subs for that.

This is a clear attempt to try and get maximum visibility and start an informal brigade into r/shitliberals say on a thread that is titled "Anarcho-libs". I guess you guys were mad about that. I didn't make the thread.

The fact that this thread still exists here, on a sub purportedly about Anarchism and its struggles, sort of speaks to the level of immaturity in this sub.

Good luck with your witchhunts, comrades.

[–]MoLoLu 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why is what will fly on communism even remotely relevant to anarchist thinking? Or even the potential brigading, for that matter? I can guess, but none the less:

This crosspost raises a perspective on anarchism I've heard often enough IRL and am interested in learning more about. I'm looking for counterarguments and perspective, which is why I'm trying to discuss it here on anarchism rather than in shitliberals, where it will devolve into a shitfest.

[–]Galleani 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I usually never participate in the anti-tankie talks. I actually agree with what Tzadikim said in this thread about a broad Left Revolutionary movement.

However, some of the things you said were pretty ridiculous (e.g. no white proletariat in the US). We're already making a pretty big compromise working with MLs at all. You go too far with actual Stalin and USSR apologetics. A lot of the opinions you hold are dead politics. They're essentially outdated and conservative at this point. The OP calling it "idol worship" isn't inaccurate, because the way you talk about these dead people and dead regimes is akin to the way religious people talk about prophets or the Bible.

You mentioned the Black Panther Party in your post. I'm a big fan of the BPP, even if they were not anarchist. But they were also current, they were flexible. They had no problem discarding irrelevant or inapplicable aspects of Marxism if they didn't match up with what they were living. And so they got shit done. Hell, Huey said his regret was that he wasn't more flexible.

ML groups that are basically book clubs today are mere navel gazing. I think this is why you drift toward Third Worldism, not because there is no "First World" revolutionary potential, but because you're mired in a world of theory and ideas. Not active in a world of action. Third Worldism gives you an out. Now we can be the radical left without even doing anything except reading books.

But I'll tell you the truth - a vaguely anti-authoritarian punk who squats a building has more revolutionary potential than an ML book club. You're not going to be leading any revolutionary vanguard. The revolution isn't going to birth itself from your brain like Athena from Zeus's head. Maybe if you guys can get back to the basics of some real shit then people will sit down and listen to your theory. If not, then the revolutionary future is in the hands of people like Pola Roupa or the YPG.

[–]Galleani 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But I do question their understanding of capitalism, since they reject Marx.

I don't think an understanding of capitalism is where anarchists deviate from Marxists. Capitalism is not especially difficult to understand, either. The split is on how capitalism is to be tackled and a rejection of authoritarian approaches to it.

As far as "anarchist agitators", what have they accomplished? Either in the US or in the periphery (exploited world)?

Like the core of the whole labor movement itself. I think most people (even many anarchists) forget just how influential anarchism has been in every labor movement.

The book I referenced makes the argument that there is no white proletariat in the United States

Oh okay then.

Noam Chomsky is the most famous libertarian socialist I know of, and he would be rightly laughed out of here for many of his liberal (in practice) ideas.

Laughed right the fuck off of Reddit! Someone tell Noam!

[–]GrabGrabTheHaddock 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

that 133tkid asshole is the same guy who thinks socialists need to back Putin as a stand up example of anti-imperialism.

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Lmao, do you have a link to that bit of foolery?

[–]GrabGrabTheHaddock 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I've seen this fool linked at r/shittankiessay a bunch of times

support Putin in Ukraine or you might be a nazi

supporting Russia is "really basic Lenin"

and for a bonus, 133tkid is the only person apart from grover furr who thinks the Soviet Union didn't commit the Katyn massacre

[–]l337kid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This GrabGrabTheHaddock asshole is the same guy who thinks socialists can be neutral on a moving train (apparently anarchists don't read Howard Zinn anymore), meanwhile the US is funding Islamic militants in the region with the aim of "destabilizing the Syrian government" (read as: murdering thousands of people) and as socialists we definitely don't want that to end, because we would be "sucking Putin's cock" and stuff. Sounds icky!


edit: do we, as socialists/anarchists, support this? http://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/01/usuk-paid-white-helmets-help-blocking-water-to-5-million-thirsty-syrians.html

I know I don't, and if Putin personally has to use his penis to make it stop, I guess I'm ok with it. You guys seem pretty preoccupied with that.

[–]TurtleTamer69xEDGELORD 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I definitely wouldve expected a lot better from someone named leet kid, subtitle"I love Stalin."

[–]Tzadikim 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (46子コメント)

I mean, did you notice the tankies in the thread defending anarchists? It's as if some government spook took a black marker to those posts countering the EEEVIL TANKIE narrative.

Now, then. We need Revolutionary Unity - a United Front - but not Left Unity - a Popular Front. I'm fine working with tankies (who are probably going to be taking the anarchist line should things pan out this time anyway, owing to changed conditions - there's no Pravda in an Internet society). I will never work with Democratic Party or left-liberal activists.

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (45子コメント)

Tankies are Stalinists, we can't play nice with them - they'd put us in the gulag first chance they get, or just sell us out to the fascists.

[–]Tzadikim -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (30子コメント)

What gulags? This isn't Russia 1931. The material conditions are different; so, too, must be the strategies we choose to apply.

Anyone worried that a bunch of Stalinists could re-create the conditions of the Soviet Union have a completely ahistorical understanding of politics.

[–]mypersonnalreader 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Any anarchist that is not worried about authoritarianism has a completely ahistorical understanding of politics.

[–]Tzadikim 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The material conditions that allowed, and required, the construction of a gulag State in the Soviet Union no longer exist.

[–]mypersonnalreader 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not saying the gulag state of the USSR will make a comeback. But anyone can observe the rise in authoritarianism that is generalized across the globe right now.

In that context, I trust left authoritarians only a little more than right authoritarians.

[–]Tzadikim 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This wave of 'authoritarianism', from Trump to the Front Nationale, looks quite different from, say, Nazi Germany, no?

Where were the private prisons in Nazi Germany? Where will the Völkischer Beobachter - the One Official News Source - be in Trump's America?

Nowhere, because the new wave of Western reaction is not interwar fascism, because material conditions have changed. It's far more market-oriented today, articulating mechanisms of repression through exchanges (private prisons, but also that Yelp-like professor watch list, etc.). It cannot monopolize the media as traditional totalitarianism did, owing to the Internet.

The first avenue for repression is denied to tankies, who reject market mechanisms; the second applies to them as to the Right.

[–]Neo-man:Socialism or barbarism 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

material conditions

That's a meaningless buzzword

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (24子コメント)

When you have the choice to idolise Marx, Lenin or Stalin and you choose Stalin, you're embracing authoritarianism full sale. Stalinists aren't comrades any more than Trump fans are.

Don't give me that "next time they won't try to kill us and install an authoritarian state" malarkey.

[–]Tzadikim 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Or you don't idolize any of them.

Marxism is 'scientific' insofar as it creates a field for testable hypotheses.

Leninism has, at its core, a hypothesis that is at least partially validated: a vanguard Party can make a revolution, within certain conditions.

Stalinism has a central hypothesis which has been invalidated: socialism - not State capitalism, but socialism - can be constructed in one country in the absence of global revolution.

Maoism has a central hypothesis, a variant on Leninism - that the peasantry in an agrarian nation can make revolution. They can - but cannot make socialism.

Both tankies who 'worship' these men and anarchokiddies who criticize all Marxists as 'worshipping' them are all Doing It Wrong.

[–]ThirdWorldWorker 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Marxism is 'scientific' insofar as it creates a field for testable hypotheses.

Marxism is 'scientific' only as propaganda, heck the idea comes from Marx's and Engel's piece "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific" which only function was to show the difference between their basis for socialism from those that came before them, like St. Simon; then tankies came and beat it to death as justification for their tankiness.

Leninism has, at its core, a hypothesis that is at least partially validated: a vanguard Party can make a revolutiona, within certain conditions.

Also become the counter-revolution that destroys the revolution, creates an authoritarian and all encompassing government and acts no different than any other capitalist nation.

Stalinism has a central hypothesis which has been invalidated: socialism - not State capitalism, but socialism - can be constructed in one country in the absence of global revolution.

As long as you love Stalin with all your heart and ignore those pesky anarchists and leftcoms about why that is not true.

Maoism has a central hypothesis, a variant on Leninism - that the peasantry in an agrarian nation can make revolution. They can - but cannot make socialism.

Peasants know how to rebel?!! How could anyone know any of that?!

Both tankies who 'worship' these men and anarchokiddies who criticize all Marxists as 'worshipping' them are all Doing It Wrong.

The worshipping is only a part of the problem, there is convolution of ignorance, support of tyranny for the sake of 'anti-imperialism', white washing the horrors in the Soviet Union, Maoist China, and whichever tyrant they are currently infatuated, the reactionary ideas that pops up within them, and so on, and on, and on, and on.

[–]Tzadikim 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not certain how to quote on Reddit, so I'll do it piecemeal:

"Marxism is 'scientific' only as propaganda,"

Any discipline which makes a testable hypothesis of the material world is innately scientific. That hypothesis may be wrong - the theory may be invalid - but the question itself remains in the domain of science. Every single major claim of Marxism could be incorrect (exploitation theory, the LTV, the declining rate of profit) and the discourse would still be scientific so long as it was falsifiable. Of course, I happen to think the theory correct.

" Also become the counter-revolution that destroys the revolution, creates an authoritarian and all encompassing government and acts no different than any other capitalist nation."

Then the problem before Leninists is to reconcile their opposition to class with their vanguard party: can the vanguard be made to be democratically accountable to the class it claims to represent? Let the Leninists - I am not one - test this.

"As long as you love Stalin with all your heart and ignore those pesky anarchists and leftcoms about why that is not true."

Or, you know, Marx himself.

"Peasants know how to rebel?!! How could anyone know any of that?!"

The question was whether peasants would ally with an urban proletariat, under Chinese conditions. And the answer was yes.

"The worshipping is only a part of the problem, there is convolution of ignorance, support of tyranny for the sake of 'anti-imperialism', white washing the horrors in the Soviet Union, Maoist China, and whichever tyrant they are currently infatuated, the reactionary ideas that pops up within them, and so on, and on, and on, and on."

So let them embrace a genuinely materialist perspective, learn from these mistakes, and move on. Anarchists can play a role in this by trying to appeal to tankies, using Marxist logic as I laid out above - "we don't need an authoritarian State; material conditions have changed".

[–]Neo-man:Socialism or barbarism 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

materialist

Materialism is a idealism

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

If Stalinists were Marxists they wouldn't be taking a big shit all over his memory.

[–]Tzadikim 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Are there no bad scientists in other disciplines?

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is Stalin the scientist or his modern day followers?

[–]Tzadikim 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Anyone who tries to apply Marxism is a 'scientist' in a Marxist sense, so far as Marxism is the science of understanding and overthrowing Capital.

The Soviet experiment was a failure, brutal and unjust - but also useful. We now know that socialism will never develop in precapitalist societies, and that socialism cannot be confined to one nation, or union of nations. The experiment invalidates the hypothesis. On the other hand, we also know that a highly motivated cadre of revolutionaries can incite a revolution (or, ar least, help carry it to term - as much as orthodox anarchists may want to romanticize February 1917, there's no doubt that it tended in a reformist, and pro-war, direction.)

Tankies - those who understand Marxism - will eventually come to a more anarchic position, simply because the material conditions of contemporary society are so much more amenable to anarcho-communism and so less in need of authoritarianism. There is no Pravda in a world of blogs, no grain requisition in a world of centralized agribusiness.

And those who don't understand Marxism aren't going to be at the head of a revolution any time soon.

[–]ThirdWorldWorker 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anyone who tries to apply Marxism is a 'scientist' in a Marxist sense, so far as Marxism is the science of understanding and overthrowing Capital.

That's not what science is and this marxism = science meme really needs to die.

We now know that socialism will never develop in precapitalist societies,

Marx knew that.

and that socialism cannot be confined to one nation, or union of nations.

And that.

On the other hand, we also know that a highly motivated cadre of revolutionaries can incite a revolution

And that.

Tankies - those who understand Marxism -

One can understand marxism and not be a tankie but not all, if any, tankie understand marxism.

[–]l337kid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Stalinists aren't comrades

Anti-communists aren't comrades. Fixed that for you.

Recommended reading: http://marxism.halkcephesi.net/Ludo%20Martens/

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not a communist.

[–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

But are you anti-communist in the same way you're, presumably, anti-capitalist and anti-fascist?

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No I was just pointing out that their attempt to argue that we're comrades using Marxist lit was wasted on someone who isn't a Marxist.

[–]Neo-man:Socialism or barbarism 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Ludo Martens

TOP KEK

If you want to convince someone don't cite a blatant apologist and ideologically hack.

[–]l337kid -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think you mean "ideological hack". Maybe reading it would just be good for your English and reading comprehension skills? No offense.

[–]GrabGrabTheHaddock 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I read a pretty big chunk of it. It's fucking awful.

[–]noisewitch2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Attacking typos is a serious waste of everyone's time. Focus on the content, you shit smear

[–]l337kid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Focus on the content, you shit smear

How precisely do you recommend I do that with people that refuse to read and discuss a pamphlet written at a 6th grade reading level? In school, you would get an F for not doing the reading. In here, I make fun of you calling the author an "ideologically hack".

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pretentious as fuck.

[–]l337kid -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

His work is based around Central Africa. Are you an expert?

Or are you dismissing him as an author on a topic (Stalin) based on the fact that he wrote a book about the same topic?

That's called a circular argument.

[–]Neo-man:Socialism or barbarism 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

His work is based around Central Africa. Are you an expert?

He's a political activist, not a trained historian so drop the expert crap.

Or are you dismissing him as an author on a topic (Stalin) based on the fact that he wrote a book about the same topic?

Am dismissing him because he's not a trained historian and his work is obliviously a work of a politically motivated apologist.

[–]l337kid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

he's not a trained historian

(1.) Lincoln wasn't a trained lawyer, and

(2.) that's an ad hom.

(3.) You're making it seem like somebody can't be an activist and an author.

(4.) You are aware that Ludo Martens is citing historians in his book, right? So trying to dismiss its thesis on that basis is dishonest, because the book is comprised from historical data.

(5.) Many serious and well respected books are written that cite history, and they aren't written by historians. Noam Chomsky comes to mind.

[–]Neo-man:Socialism or barbarism 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

(1.) Lincoln wasn't a trained lawyer

irrelevant

(2.) that's an ad hom.

Calling something a fallacy is not a argument

(3.) You're making it seem like somebody can't be an activist and an author.

A person who is a Marxist Leninist activist is not the most trustworthy of people on subjects like Stalin or the Ussr.

You are aware that Ludo Martens is citing historians in his book, right? So trying to dismiss its thesis on that basis is dishonest, because the book is comprised from historical data.

Historians can misquoted out of context and data can be framed to suit a ideological narrative , so it's not dishonest.

(5.) Many serious and well respected books are written that cite history, and they aren't written by historians. Noam Chomsky comes to mind.

And there are many more which are total hot garbage. Plus Noam Chomsky is a reputable academic.

[–]Gamma_Ram -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah that's not true at all

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do you even history, mate? How many times have we been slaughtered because we thought we could team up with them? At some point we have to realise we don't have the same interests in mind.

[–]Gamma_Ram 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not the 20th century any more man. I work with MLs all the time in my community. They have no ill will towards us

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stalinists aren't MLs.

[–]l337kid -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I used to be an anarchist for many years. I can tell you that you're doing yourself a disservice with all this dismissal.

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Hahaha, sure l337kid, I mean you're so well versed in anarchist theory what with claiming we like capitalism and all.

[–]l337kid -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I was a follower of Michael Albert for years, grew up reading Chomsky, Kropotkin, etc. Nice attempt at dismissal.

I never claimed anarchists like capitalism. I claimed that they don't understand it enough to be able to remove it. There's a difference.

I guess you don't care for those distinctions though - since it would make it hard for you to craft your little strawmen.

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You wanna quote the part where Kropotkin displayed his ignorance of what capitalism means mate?

[–]l337kid -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

"Not all anarchists liked Marx’s critique of political economy. Peter Kropotkin rejected it entirely.

http://www.anarkismo.net/article/28438

Basically that.

Furthermore:

Kropotkin had a different approach to economics than Marx had, although both approaches are valuable. Marx was interested in showing the workers how capitalism worked and what factors within it could lead to a socialist revolution. But Kropotkin wrote, “Political economy…become[s] a science devoted to the study of the needs of men and of the means of satisfying them with the least possible waste of energy….” (17) That is, his focus was on what a future society could be like. Because of this perspective, he was mostly interested in demonstrating that a more decentralized, self-managed, society was technologically possible under communist-anarchism.

These approaches would later be criticized by Lenin as "economism", or reformism, and I think rightly so.

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ah, so if you disagree with Marx on some minor issue, you just aint clever enough to grasp the concept, k bruv.

[–]l337kid -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

A central flaw is a fatal flaw. We are talking about how one conceives of capitalism and political economy.

Kropotkin rejected Marx and Lenin on many important topics, including the use of the state to achieve Socialism.

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd call you a pseudo-intellectual but I think you'll take it as a compliment.

[–]l337kid -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Lets see you bring forward any cogent critique on Marxism-Leninism without regurgitating the word "Stalinist" over fifty times.

Show that you can be more than a little ideological Eichmann.

[–]Scaryhair 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dude that thread is a shit show

[–]l337kid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Yeah except I don't say this.

Nice use of actually existing socialism as a ressentiment function.

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (10子コメント)

You're literally the most ignorant 'socialist' I've ever encountered. You're a fucking disgrace.

[–]l337kid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Nice argument. Poo poo pee pee.

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

What argument? Don't be so fucking pretentious, this isn't a debate, it's me mocking you for your ignorance and arrogance. Potent combination, that..

[–]l337kid -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Then why should I respond to an insect that can only mutter insults? Fuck off.

As far as what you would respond to, here's a start, dumbass:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitLiberalsSay/comments/5mkttq/anarcholiberals_try_to_work_out_how_to_deal_with/dc4yy8z/

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

A stalinist coming to r/anarchism to tell me to fuck off? Nah.

[–]l337kid -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I just did, child.

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lmao l337kid.

[–]noisewitch2 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

fuck off with that agesim

[–]l337kid -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

fuck off with that agesim

picks up "“Left-Wing” Communism: an Infantile Disorder"

fuck Lenin was ageist, not gonna read

lol.

also agesim? is that the new EA game?

[–]Neo-man:Socialism or barbarism 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you even hear yourself?

Your throwing a temper tantrum on this sub. Then you call people who disagree with your political opinion's kids , then when people call you out for being a shit you freak out and go off on a nonsensical tangent .

Who exactly is being immature here? As if I need another reason to not like Marxist Leninists if this is how they act.

[–]situationist_prank/r/audiosocialism 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Banned from there for being an anarchist. Filled with brocialists and armchair socialists (ultras).

[–]situationist_prank/r/audiosocialism 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I heard they did a purge of "edgy anarchists", like they apparently allow anarchists they just can't be edgy or something.

[–]wuyopiPost-Left[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah that's pretty much the excuse they used, except they used the word 'anarkid'.

[–]TheEllimist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This sure does stink of Lenin calling anarchists "petty bourgeois" to justify lining them up against a wall, but please tell me more about how that was just the early 20th century and we need left unity.

[–]Neo-man:Socialism or barbarism 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Leninism is the meme that won't just die