上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 266

[–]Scaryhair 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (14子コメント)

This is absolutely disgusting, this has detrimental effects by giving ammunition to bigots.

[–]eisagi 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (6子コメント)

As always. This sort of shit happens once in a blue moon, nobody on the left supports it, and yet it gets all this attention.

Trump supporters beat up a homeless immigrant earlier in the election and Trump laughed it off and praised his supporters as "passionate", which should have ended his career.

To be fair, the fuckwit torturers recorded a video in this case. Videos get extra attention. It still doesn't somehow cancel out all the violence by Trump supporters during the campaign the way some would have you believe.

[–]Anzereke 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (2子コメント)

No it certainly doesn't.

And nor does that violence cancel out this shit.

It's all bad. But I gotta say that what really horrifies me is people in an Anarchism subreddit justifying this shit as several are.

[–]eisagi 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The latter people are the rounding error of the Internet - trolls and abhorrents - so long as they're downvoted to hell, their existence is negligible.

[–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think this is a tragic example of people targeting a vulnerable person with the desire to hurt and degrade. They can offer any number of other reasons to justify/rationalize that desire, but at the core these folks seem fairly gleeful about torturing a disabled man.

Unfortunately, their saying "fuck donald trump" and while doing this is going to inflame reactionary sentiment, and will play right into the hands of white supremacists. That said, if it were not this event reactionary elements crowed over it would likely be some other. Their narrative is always one of antagonism, where peace can only come by destroying or subjugating the Other on whom all troubles can be blamed. "Foreigners steal your jobs/women/welfare", for example. What can we, as anarchists, do about this? Beyond combating fascism and white supremacy, as we normally do, educating those whom you feel able about the realities of supremacist dogwhistling seems a reasonable approach.

[–]CrazyCommunistWU-TANG ANARCHISM 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

this is such a good comment. the people who did this are vile, evil, horrible people who used Trump as an excuse, and there's gonna be blowback from reactionaries because of this.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]CrazyCommunistWU-TANG ANARCHISM 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    not quite sure what you mean by MSM-fueled racial hatred, and how it ties into that guy's torture.

    [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 56 ポイント57 ポイント  (104子コメント)

    Just to explain: a mentally disabled man was kidnapped, tied up, and tortured, all on camera.

    [–][削除されました]  (103子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 56 ポイント57 ポイント  (49子コメント)

      And while doing it, they shouted "fuck white people, fuck donald trump"

      So like this is a thing that needs to be discussed and answered for. Obviously the usual suspects are out in force blaming BLM and "the liberal media" for inciting this. But frankly this is so outrageous that everyone has a right to be angry.

      [–]markovich04 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (43子コメント)

      Did they really shout it?

      Making this about Trump supporters rather than violence against disabled people is the tactic Trump fans are taking.

      [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (7子コメント)

      I heard it on the video, myself.

      Unless this is some super advanced false flag, and someone digitally added "fuck white people, fuck donald trump" later, I'm pretty sure it's legit.

      But I mean I agree, I doubt the victim had any public political opinions, the news reports he's hardly even verbal. But the attackers said it.

      [–]Red-Menace-1917 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Wait you're also saying that it's highly unlikely that he even has the capacity to verbalize any political opinions? Oh my God, this is so disgusting and awful to do to someone.

      [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I can't say. The news said he wasn't able to say much when the police interviewed him, because of his disability. But other people have reported the attackers also forced the victim himself to say "fuck white people." So I don't actually know how verbally skilled the guy is.

      [–]Red-Menace-1917 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Wow that is absolutely awful.

      [–]AirRaidJade 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yes, they literally assumed all white people are Trump supporters and grabbed a random one to torture because they were so sure of it.

      [–]anarchistica 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      My mom works with people with autism and a couple of them like saying inflamatory things without fully realising what they're saying. It's possible that's what happened here.

      [–]etatsunis 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Nah it could easily be a false flag and if it were, those statements would be the key part of the script.

      It seems fishy as hell, as if it were planned for maximum shock value.

      • Him saying "Fuck white people, fuck Donald Trump" ++shock value
      • Livestreamed on Facebook: ++shock value
      • Mentally disabled victim: ++shock value
      • Scalping: ++shock value

      [–]AirRaidJade 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Because psychopaths never do anything for shock value. Right.

      [–][削除されました]  (34子コメント)

      [removed]

        [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (11子コメント)

        It isn't "about" ableism, it was about hurting a person who in this case happened to be especially vulnerable. The "fuck trump" and "fuck white people" stuff is just ridiculous post-hoc attempts to rationalize or justify their desire to torture and degrade another person. AFAIK, we have no indication either way what his politics were, and it seems unlikely they targeted him politically considering what news I have seen indicates the victim wasn't particularly high-functioning.

        [–][削除されました]  (10子コメント)

        [removed]

          [–]littlegreenghoulz 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          But at least one if the attackers did know him. The victim knew the girl that lured him into the stolen van. This wasn't some random person they picked up. He was specifically targeted.

          [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

          [removed]

            [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            No one overreacted to anything Trump did. They frankly under-reacted. Trump raped his ex-wife but we never heard about it. Trump's been sued several times for housing discrimination, we never heard about that.

            These people are fucking idiots and pathetic excuses for human beings, but to act as if they were brainwashed into thinking Trump is worse than he actually is is nonsense. Trump is worse than most people are acting, and for that matter so's Hillary.

            [–]MoLoLu 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            No one overreacted to anything Trump did.

            The problem is that amidst all the screaming and shouting this got lost and no one wants to hear it anymore. Character assassination does not work by continually shouting at the top of your lungs. It requires picking very specific and revolting details, assembling a hit list, and hammering that home in one overwhelming go. The media didn't do that.

            They went crazy over everything, one little bit at a time, stringing people along for a wild ride in the name of greed. And now we're where we're at, where people are used to the barrage of insults and have gone numb to the actual implications.

            There's too much background noise to make any point about Trump at present. That has to die down before any real effect can be had. Though, sadly, I doubt that'll happen as the left has no capacity for strategic thought or planning.

            [–]TurnipG 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I voted for hillary and i dont care if this crazy sub supports her. Im saying that you guys ae hurting the left. Your viewpoint is toxic and i'd appreciate it if you guys stopped associating with us. Alot of people want to fix racism but completely ignoring one race, whites, is not accomplishing that. Demonizing an entire race of people is actual nazi shit and it causes stuff like this to happen. If you actually believe all whites should die you should neck yourself

            [–]grossblau 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I don't know, seems like uniquely human behavior to me.

            [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (51子コメント)

            Surely you realize calling black people "animals" is a racist dogwhistle?

            [–]linuxuser86 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (43子コメント)

            I don't think that in this case anybody's rage can be interpreted as racial. I thought the same thing before I realized what race they were

            [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (42子コメント)

            I would encourage you to consider why it is you would prefer to associate the terrible acts of people with animals.

            [–]linuxuser86 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Becuase the idea that living things who I share my biology, culture, society, and so much else with can be this evil is a tough thing to accept sometimes.

            [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            That's real, and I appreciate the honesty. I would still encourage you to avoid that kind of honest thinking, because ignoring our capacity for terrible acts often serves precisely to give excuse for those same misdeeds.

            [–][削除されました]  (39子コメント)

            [removed]

              [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (38子コメント)

              I've never seen a non-human animal do any of the things these people did, so I'm inclined to agree with another user who said that these seem to be actually uniquely human acts.

              [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

              [removed]

                [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                Do the dragons tie up their prey and then videotape themselves degrading it while they laugh? No, I think they just slowly hunt their prey after giving it a particularly nasty bite.

                [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

                [removed]

                  [–]OrkBegork 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  While I agree that using "animals" as a term for these kids is pretty iffy at best, claiming that these things are "uniquely human" is nonsense.

                  When you watch a nature documentary, the cruelty is framed by evolutionary explanations such as "social dominance" or "hunting techniques"... but the idea that human behaviours aren't driven by the same forces is nonsense.

                  If you want more directly similar examples, take dolphins and porpoises. Porpoises are basically smaller dolphins, and dolphins treat them the way large bullies have treated small kids in school yards everywhere. They toy with them, bat them around, and often just battering their smaller bodies until they die of internal haemorrhaging.

                  There are plenty more examples through out the animal kingdom. Basically anywhere animals live in some sort of social hierarchy, there is bullying.

                  We are able to rationalize the behaviour away in animals, because we see them as intellectually inferior beings who are spared the burden of "knowing better", despite the fact that simply "knowing better" has little influence on human behaviour.

                  Seeing humans are "moral" beings in a way that separates us from animals is nothing more than a holdover from the judeo-christian influence on our culture.

                  [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  the idea that human behaviours aren't driven by the same forces is nonsense.

                  Eh, I'll agree insofar as those forces are contributing factors for people. Humans however, are arguably unique in this regard, in that we seem to have far greater 'agency' to ignore those evolutionary instructions.

                  There are plenty more examples through out the animal kingdom. Basically anywhere animals live in some sort of social hierarchy, there is bullying.

                  You're presupposing hierarchical relations already, though. Animals live in complex and dynamic interconnected worlds, but it seems a bit moralistic of you to imply this is "bullying". A quick Google Scholar search says the dominant theories for this kind of aggressive behavior is either due to competition for limited resources, specifically dietary overlap, or possibly due to environmental pressures creating excessive populations of aggressive non-mating males(who are also recorded killing juvenile dolphins as well).

                  Seeing humans are "moral" beings in a way that separates us from animals is nothing more than a holdover from the judeo-christian influence on our culture.

                  There are a variety of non-religious and/or non-Abrahamic moral theories that consider humans distinct in some way/shape/form from animals, so it seems unnecessarily reductive to attribute all moral confusion to the legacy of theocratic dogma.

                  [–]OrkBegork 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Humans however, are arguably unique in this regard, in that we seem to have far greater 'agency' to ignore those evolutionary instructions.

                  ...than every other species on the planet? What are you basing that on, aside from the fact that you experience the world from inside the mind of a human, which is really the only way to actually observe "agency"?

                  You're presupposing hierarchical relations already, though.

                  Uh, the fact that there are hierarchies in animals social groups is hardly some out-of-my-ass hypothesis. This is something that is extremely well established in many, many species.

                  This is not a claim that "hierarchy" in the anarchist political theory sense is something innate and inevitable, those are two different concepts.

                  Animals live in complex and dynamic interconnected worlds, but it seems a bit moralistic of you to imply this is "bullying". A quick Google Scholar search says the dominant theories for this kind of aggressive behavior is either due to competition for limited resources, specifically dietary overlap, or possibly due to environmental pressures creating excessive populations of aggressive non-mating males(who are also recorded killing juvenile dolphins as well).

                  What makes you think that the reasons humans exhibit those behaviours is somehow different from other species? I think you're confusing the existence of evolutionary explanations with evidence that a behaviour is entirely instinctive.

                  This is kind of like saying that humans eat because they get hungry and like the taste of food, while animals eat due to the fact that they require a mixture of protein, carbohydrates, and assorted other nutrients in order to survive.

                  There are a variety of non-religious and/or non-Abrahamic moral theories that consider humans distinct in some way/shape/form from animals, so it seems unnecessarily reductive to attribute all moral confusion to the legacy of theocratic dogma.

                  ...and did you grow up in a culture formed predominantly on any of those other traditions? This is not simply about some kind of distinctness, it's about a specific kind of moral separation.

                  [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                  Dude, watch a nature documentary. Animals can be cruel bastards to other animals. They're less, uh, "creative" than humans with their sadism, but they do just atrocious things.

                  [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  Dude

                  Nah.

                  Animals can be cruel bastards to other animals.

                  Okay cool, that doesn't have bearing on the issue at hand. Calling people "animals" implies there is some distinction between the two, which there is not, and also serves to denigrate animals as somehow "inherently bad/cruel/evil". Fuck that, its part and parcel of socializing people to accept competition, cruelty, and self-interest as somehow more natural than cooperation, compassion, and altruism.

                  [–]Anzereke 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (20子コメント)

                  Then you're definitely not a biologist of any kind. For instance, ducks are fucking evil.

                  [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (19子コメント)

                  Wow, another amazing contribution to this discussion! Glad you could make it, truly.

                  [–]Anzereke 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (18子コメント)

                  It's an entirely relevant response. Ducks rape their dead, and their living, hell their genitalia has evolved in some horrifying ways.

                  You made an incorrect claim, animals do all kinds of nasty shit to one another and literally any biologist will tell you such.

                  [–]ieatpussy69minimalist communist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  [–]youtubefactsbot 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  New leader kills monkey babies - Monkey Warriors - BBC animals [4:02]

                  A new leader in the city monkey troupe is keen to mark his territory and rid all traces of the defeated leader from the troupe - including all the babies he fathered. Includes scenes some viewers may find disturbing. Taken from BBC wildlife documentary Monkey Warriors.

                  BBCWorldwide in Pets & Animals

                  2,780,355 views since Feb 2009

                  bot info

                  [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Okay, thanks for playing.

                  [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

                  [removed]

                    [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    It doesn't suddenly become okay to dehumanize people, either as a means of explaining their capacity for violence or for justifying denying them moral consideration. If we want to explain their capacity for violence, your reference to Eichmann is convenient for introducing Arendt's "banality of evil" bit. They did terrible things, in line with the other terrible things humans are unfortunately able and willing to do to one another. If we want to deny them moral consideration, or limit/curtail their moral consideration, we again don't need to 'reduce' their status to that of "animal" in order to do so.

                    Calling Eichmann a monster helps maintain the notion that only a select group of 'monstrous' people perpetrated the Holocaust, whereas we know that as much as 2/3 of Germans were aware of the forced removal of Jewish people to internment, and/or the existence of death camps specifically. Keeping this in mind, then we know it was the vast number of Germans casually accepting the verbiage and ideology of antisemitism- if not also the verbiage and ideology of nazism- that made the Holocaust possible.

                    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

                    [removed]

                      [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Oh fuck off, its a known racist dogwhistle and I gave them the benefit of the doubt by replying as such rather than just reporting them or posting some equally shit-tier response.

                      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

                      [removed]

                        [–]living_in_bad_faith- anarchist academic 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I'm not defending them, so I don't know where that came from. All people are animals, we're not somehow above or beyond that category. If we dismiss the acts of people as 'animal', it implies these people are somehow less responsible while also implying animals are "worse than" people, or are inherently bad or something. It's reductive and useless.

                        [–]CC_ER 48 ポイント49 ポイント  (18子コメント)

                        Hate crimes are hate crimes, and should be opposed whenever possible.

                        I don't know what else there is to talk about, unless it's the fact that the typical reactionary crowd will point to this as justification for their viewpoints.

                        [–]Lancer506 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        You phrased it in the best way possible.

                        [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (15子コメント)

                        I think the elephant in the room is that a lot of people in this subreddit will tell you racism against whites can't exist, so this can't be a hate crime.

                        And like, we can have a discussion until the end of time about structural this and that but A) it would be just absurd to claim the people who did this weren't racist, and B) justifying comments like "fuck white people" is literally the absolute worst PR strategy for the left in the fucking world, but people, (again, including people on this subreddit), are going to double down and commit to that position, and it's frankly self-destructive to the left, to anarchism, to anti-racism.

                        [–]lithobolos 45 ポイント46 ポイント  (13子コメント)

                        Hate crimes refer to all racial, religious and ethnic groups because they are individual acts motivated by an individual's hatred for a group.

                        That doesn't mean there is systemic oppression of that group.

                        Individual racism and prejudice exists against white people. Every one knows that.

                        Systemic racism and oppression against white people does not exist. The same it doesn't exist for men, for natural born citizens, Christians, and the wealthy.

                        [–]MoLoLu 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                        Individual racism and prejudice exists against white people. Every one knows that.

                        The problem is not everyone knows that. They should. But there are ideological cults claiming to be leftists that translates this...

                        That doesn't mean there is systemic oppression of that group.

                        Into "kill all white people", "kill all men", etc. While on the reactionary side people have started pushing back with „kill all feminists“, „kill all muslims“, etc.

                        This sort of extremist thinking is dangerous and the complete antithesis of anarchist thought and the principles of leftism. It's why the centrists & right calls us all fascists. Especially when these krass judgements are selectively applied to the point of irrationality (eg only shame white men but ignore muslim men).

                        Systemic & especially patriarchal oppression does exist and must be countered. But its existence is not a justification to throw everyone who can be ever so loosely lumped in the same category into a superlative blame-group. This is why mainstream westerners are „sliding right“ and why it's so hard to convince moderates that leftism is the solution. Because the only narrative they see (as presented to them) is the extremist one. And the left is doing nothing to distance itself from those voices - in fact they're embracing them and doubling down.

                        The method to address such issues is to target specific people and institutions with direct action & activism, not broad swathes of the population, while in turn educating the general public with pointed, positive messages and an inclusive strategy – not extreme rhetoric that drives anyone not already convinced away. This sort of collectivist and reductionist thinking is not only ruinous for PR but frankly disgusting.

                        It's exactly this that's made me and many other leftists I know shy away from supporting mainstream narratives despite the fact we see systemic and race/gender-based oppression around us all the time. Because, judging by the loudest narrative of (say, feminism, as embraced by the left), the goal is to blame all men and all whites (which covers most people I know) rather than single out specific issue and address those (eg sending unsolicited dick pics is wrong, groping women is wrong).

                        Most people can quite easily get behind a no-dick-pick or no-groping campaign. They can't get behind a kill-all-white-men campaign. Neither can most women I know, who think their „equality“ movement is a joke and want nothing to do with it. That's how bad the left's PR is; fellow leftists are jumping the boat because the narrative is so irrationally extreme that they cannot relate anymore, specifically because it isn't addressing specific concerns that are relevant in their lives.

                        The left, by and large, has utterly failed to understand how activism works or how the moderates they desperately need on their side think. They've failed to address the very real issues people want solved and have instead devolved into blanket accusations and extremist campaigns that virtually no one not already snared in the group-think understands.

                        That, and the massive issues it's causing for leftism in general, is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about.

                        [–]Promotheos 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        I think this is an excellent analysis.

                        I honestly think there's a good chance some of the things you just said would get you banned or comment removed on some leftist subs.

                        [–]MoLoLu 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I honestly think there's a good chance some of the things you just said would get you banned or comment removed on some leftist subs.

                        No doubt. Critical reflection on strategy, tactics, and narrative does not always go over well. And I get why; it's painful to realize that acting according to one's firmly held beliefs may be counterproductive to the larger goal, and that said belief might need to be abandoned at least temporarily. Despite the discomfort, I believe reflection and pragmatism is required for successful activism.

                        As much as anarchists are set apart from other forms of leftism and mainstream politics, we're still beholden to a wider political spectrum and a larger narrative. We don't act in a vacuum and failing to acknowledge that is the fastest way to get oneself shut down – or dismissed as a loonie. We have to know not only ourselves but also our foes. And that isn't just the fash – this isn't just „them“ vs „us“ as so many like to paint it.

                        It's „them“ vs „everyone who could be on our side but could also be against us“ vs „us“. The middle group's (varied and often interesting, if generally pro-capitalist) point of view has to be understood before one can determine how to best act in one's own (anarchistic) interest. One has to gauge whether the practical results of an action are likely to produce the intended effect, and if not, determine a better way to achieve it. And, at times, one will have to make pragmatic compromises in order to fight another day.

                        Not that there aren't moments when one ought best adhere strictly to one's belief and push against all odds with full force, but even that should be a calculated move, not a knee-jerk reaction. With foresight and critical analysis, one can plan for various potential side effects of a given action (be it a debate, a protest, activism or direct action), and go into it prepared for the inevitable pushback – rather than just reacting to things as they come, which is in effect to give up initiative and let the other side push their agenda.

                        The thing which annoys me most about modern leftism is that it's utterly devoid of any strategic thinking or even an understanding of how politics, mass media, and humans work. You'd think, especially among anarchists – who should understand the principle of self-interest and that we, as humans, generally only act when it's to our benefit or when we're coerced to – that one wouldn't blindly alienate the same segment of the population that can lend one's cause legitimacy by appealing to their self-interest. Except that principle doesn't seem to be as widely understood as I expected.

                        [–]stardust_witch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        It's why the centrists & right calls us all fascists.

                        You're naive if you think that they aren't going to slander us regardless of how respectable we make our message. We want nothing less than to overturn everything that gives them power.

                        Even if every single one of us were dedicated pacifists, they'd lie and call us violent anyway, and the people who don't want to own up to their role in creating and perpetuating the social problems that we fight against will believe those lies because it's easier for them. They never will be our allies and we shouldn't waste time courting them.

                        [–]ramnoic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        This sort of extremist thinking is dangerous and the complete antithesis of anarchist thought and the principles of leftism...But [systemic oppression] is not a justification to throw everyone who can be ever so loosely lumped in the same category into a superlative blame-group.

                        Now, we don't know the real motivations behind the attack, no matter how many Trump supporters and white nationalists say so. Just because they yelled "fuck Trump" and "fuck white people" doesn't mean they chose to do this for political or anti-white reasons; they could have just as possibly said these things to get attention.

                        But I agree with you here completely. Where I differ, I think, is here:

                        The method to address such issues is to target specific people and institutions with direct action & activism...while in turn educating the general public with pointed, positive messages and an inclusive strategy

                        I agree that in general this is what we need to do, but what should these messages be? What should this strategy be? Nor do I think the issue is just that the left has failed to understand activism or moderates.

                        I think one of the fundamental issues here is identity politics - if you'll excuse a pretty winded definition, putting certain oppressed identities like race (e.g. blackness), gender/gender identity (e.g. female or cis), and sexual orientation at the forefront of sociopolitical analysis and emphasizing them to the extent that people with these identities are treated as homogeneous groups with the aim of erasing any social disparities among them and the privileged groups, attributing these disparities ultimately to racism or sexism itself rather than seeing them as necessary consequences of the oppressive institutions that reproduce these inequalities. That people blame the psychological and mental attitudes of white people, cis people, straight people men - all of the groups considered to be privileged over others - rather than specific social structures that can be dismantled is a direct consequence of internalized identity politics, conscious or not.

                        Leftists need to provide ourselves with a strong, viable alternative to identity politics, which has proven to be a failure for a long time now. It doesn't work in getting rid of oppression such as racism or sexism since it doesn't actually attack the root causes of these things, and it is inherently divisive in that it casts various identities as having their own separate interests which renders collaboration among these identities as unnecessary.

                        We socialists have not done a good job of making our alternative loud and clear. It is time to rid the left of the absolute cancer that is identity politics (and as a person with a parent with terminal cancer I don't make this remark lightly).

                        [–]CrazyCommunistWU-TANG ANARCHISM 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        it seems like the main disagreement on racism towards white people is whether racism emcompasses systematic disenfranchisement, a lone person's actions, or both. even if only the first one is actual racism, I still don't really get how someone could defend the actions of these people.

                        [–]KropotkinIsLove- Red, Black and Proud -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I hope that nobody on this sub even thinks about defending them.

                        [–]Anzereke 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Systemic racism and oppression against white people does not exist. The same it doesn't exist for men, for natural born citizens, Christians, and the wealthy.

                        In certain countries.

                        I get that this is mostly a US site, but this remains an important thing to tack on.

                        Try going to Japan and claiming there's no systemic racism against everyone living there who isn't Japanese. etc etc

                        [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        This is what I'm saying about "structural this and that." All of that ought to be irrelevant to the situation at hand. And we ought to be willing to say, not only do individual racism and prejudice exist against white people, but they're clearly dangerous and counterproductive: as evidenced by this hate crime.

                        [–]PunkRockGeek 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        It's pretty easy to condemn these actions (and we should), but we also should look at what is likely to continue over the next four years: Income inequality and discrimination have traditionally led to greater crimes rates by the populations most marginalized. Can we have a conversation that doesn't justify the violence but still acknowledges these political and economic realities? Can we figure out how to respond when crimes / terrorist attacks against white people (and likely everyone else, as well) increase during Trump's presidency? How could they not?

                        [–]oldschooldyingcat- greener & pinker than you 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        On point. A hate crime is a hate crime. We're not liberals or conservatives. We don't have to bullshit anyone. This is a hate crime.

                        [–]CrazyCommunistWU-TANG ANARCHISM 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (16子コメント)

                        Respect lost for anyone who attempts to justify this.

                        [–]grossblau 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                        Has anyone other than obvious trolls attempted to excuse this shit?

                        [–]CrazyCommunistWU-TANG ANARCHISM 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                        Haven't seen any, but said it just in case someone tries to say it's legitimate antifa action (it's not).

                        [–]mypersonnalreader 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        I've seen some in Facebook groups

                        [–]CrazyCommunistWU-TANG ANARCHISM 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        that's reprehensible.

                        [–]Anzereke -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        Plenty of it in this thread. People trying very hard to pretend this isn't exactly the kind of thing that this subreddit advocates for.

                        Gotta say as someone who generally advocates for non-violence wherever possible I'm feeling vindicated.

                        [–]butistillwork 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Yeah no. You don't feel vindicated because this was something this sub advocates for which turned out horrible, you feel vindicated because you imagine that this is what people advocate for which turned out horrible, because that would justify your views on violence. In reality, nobody here is advocating that we torture disabled people. And people who actually hate all white people are basically non-existent here as well.

                        [–][削除されました]  (5子コメント)

                        [removed]

                          [–]CrazyCommunistWU-TANG ANARCHISM 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          beaing against fascism and reactionary thought =/= kidnapping a mentally disabled guy, cutting up his head, and then using it as an ashtray.

                          [–]GrabGrabTheHaddock 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          what world do you inhabit where some random mentally disabled person is 'the fash'?

                          [–]fadlpadlDirty commie 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (11子コメント)

                          The rhetoric surrounding this affair has made me lose a lot of respect for a lot of people all around.

                          [–]grossblau 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                          What rhetoric are you refering to? My internet is slow as shit rn so I haven't been able to check out the general reaction to this.

                          [–]fadlpadlDirty commie 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                          Calls for suicide in response to outrage at this, calls for suicide in response to not being outraged at this. Just a lot of really fucking gross shit being said right now.

                          [–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                          When a fascist publically talks about being excited that they get to "t*rdbash" over this, I'm pulling all the punches I have. The most impactful of which is telling them to kill themselves. Who gives a fuck?

                          [–][削除されました]  (6子コメント)

                          [removed]

                            [–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            The shitbag I was talking to said it in another sub in the middle of our conversation.

                            http://imgur.com/okeNDXt

                            [–]LibertyUnderpants 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                            I read that as "turdbash"

                            [–]fadlpadlDirty commie 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            Why would he censor turd?

                            "Tard" is a serious slur used against the mentally disabled, and I understand not wishing to use it. Turd is just... turd.

                            [–]WickedDeparted 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Why would you "censor' tard? OP was quoting someone else. They're not using the word themselves.

                            How is it censoring anything when everyone fucking knows what it's supposed to be anyway.

                            Sh*t, p*ss, f*ck, c*nt, c*ckuscker, motherf*cker, t*ts.

                            Is that actually any different that writing out the words?

                            Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that stupid censorship like this doesn't actually do anything other than make things more difficult to read. Judge what people say, not how they say it.

                            Edit2: If you disagree, tell me why, don't just downvote. I'm honestly very curious how you feel that replacing a letter with an underscore somehow make things more acceptable to write.

                            [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            My jaw is on the fucking floor right now.

                            [–]loverthehater 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (6子コメント)

                            The man can be seen crying on camera as he is repeatedly battered.

                            What road must one take to reach the point where these inhumanities can be carried out without a second thought? Why do so many people take this road?

                            [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            Wish I fuckin' knew, so we could do something about this. I mean ableism clearly played some role. A few years back I saw an exact situation like this. A group of teenagers lured a mentally disabled kid to a house, they claimed one of the girls in the group wanted to go on a date with him. And then when he gets there they fucking beat him up and humiliate him and he's cowering in a corner, and the fucking bastards are filming it all as they do this to him.

                            [–]Arcaness| Communo-Marxyndicalist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Did you bash them?

                            [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            I'm sorry, I said I "saw" this, but I meant I saw it on the news.

                            [–]muddy700s 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            So few people take this road, but so many amp up the rhetoric that incites those few.

                            [–]butistillwork 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Honestly? Radical faith in an idea. Be that God, the nation, racial superiority, or even just humanity. If you are dedicated enough to a higher cause, you can justify doing the most horrible shit to somebody who doesn't share your dedication. They are "in the way". They are lesser. It's religious thinking and it legitimately permeates the entire political spectrum. Even a lot of anarchism.

                            [–]peaceonly 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            This is truly a disgusting act of unnecessary violence.

                            [–]hereliesbeavisNo War But The Class War 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                            To be frank, no, I don't think we "need" to talk about this at all. The modern day Julius Streichers at Breitbart and on social media as well as the mainstream media itself are already giving this story all of the lurid coverage it deserves and then some. Every time this story is shared it is feeding fascist hysteria and calls for race war. It's being used as a cudgel to defame BLM and black people in general. In our current political environment I would not be surprised if somewhere around the country in the next few days or weeks black people are assaulted or even murdered as a result of this video. Of course, when those crimes occur they will not receive a fraction of the coverage this one is receiving, the same people bleating about hate crimes and racism now will poo-poo the idea of it being a hate crime and deny the concept of racism itself as is their M.O. when the victim is not white. Good chance the perpetrators will escape justice or receive lenient sentences.

                            Which is my point here. Drumming up outrage about this video does nothing to expedite justice. It is receiving tons of coverage, the perps faces are camera. They're black, the victim is white and all of the circumstances of the crime mean the chances they do not receive punishment to the fullest extent of the law is virtually non-existent. That's how the "justice" system works in America.

                            You are not helping a victim receive justice if you hysterically condemn and publicize this video, you are directly assisting fascist and neo-nazi propaganda at a time when they are ascendant. Think about that.

                            edit: check out https://hatehurts.net/ if you want to read about hate crimes that don't receive an iota of the coverage and condemnation this crime has and will receive because the perps and victims are wrong and they don't buttress genocidal fascist narratives.

                            [–]bounca2013 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Few days? Weeks? It has already happened. Dietrich Idaho. A black guy, three white guys and a cloth hanger. Your talking point has happened already.

                            [–]hereliesbeavisNo War But The Class War 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Doesn't surprise me at all. I know it happens regularly all across the country regardless of what it is in the headlines.

                            [–]Quietuus 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Thank you. The paroxysms about this on this sub are bizarre. There is no evidence that these people were in any way linked to the left in general or anarchists in particular, and there's no evidence they were inspired to do this by leftist rhetoric. It seems to me as if we have a case of people performing sadistic acts on a random victim for thrills; we call it 'happy slapping' in the UK. It's horrible, it's despicable, it's abuse, it's gruesome and it has nothing to do with leftist politics. It's filmed to make it more humiliating, and the language used is for the same purpose; he's white and the abusers are black, so they used racial language and insulted Donald Trump (the 'leader' of white people). It's just like how, in a racially charged porn scene, a performer might be enjoined to 'take it, you white bitch'. It's humiliating for white people to be beaten up by black people in a racist society because black people are supposed to be inferior. If the victim had been gay perhaps they'd have called him a 'fag'; we don't know what other language was used, unless there's a full video or transcript floating round. The 'fuck white people' and 'fuck Donald Trump' parts could simply have been highlighted because they're the most headline-worthy, or to set a particular agenda. This was not caused by the left; arseholes, fools and agent provocateurs will always be out there, operating at the fringes of anarchism and socialism, and their rhetoric will always be used to discredit the rest of us, but that doesn't mean we have to actively collude in it and open up opportunities for them. And now people are being slammed on an anarchist sub-reddit for 'distancing' because they can put this thing into a social context? I find it incredible that this grotesque event is being used as political ammunition both by the racist right and by elements within the left, because that is what is happening here.

                            [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Way to entirely miss the point. You're the one assisting neo-nazis by actually doing what they claim the left does: doesn't care when this kind of thing happens because it hurts our narrative. Your purely-political response to this is a public relations disaster for anti-racism.

                            Obviously yes, this act has already been roundly condemned by all sides, so it doesn't "need" extra condemnation from me. That's not the point.

                            The only reason this thread blew up to 100+ comments is because a handful of jackasses felt the need to equivocate and hem and haw and one even went so far as to call it "bashing the fash." So that causes a flurry of disapproval and disagreement, rightly so. This thread could have had just half a dozen comments all essentially saying briefly "what an outrage, fuck those guys. We condemn them as shitheads who don't represent anti-racism or anti-Trump-ism." But that didn't happen, because there really is a problem, and the alt-right didn't make it up. Fucking edgelords with their "# killallwhitemen" and their inability to see a hate crime when it's slapping them across the face are a problem, one we need to face. Shit like this has happened before, like when some idpol crypto-liberals latched onto every possible flimsy excuse they could to refuse to acknowledge religious extremism played a role in the Orlando nightclub shooting. It makes us look fucking terrible, and it's obscene anyway. It has to stop.

                            [–]MoLoLu -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            This.

                            Selective silence has worked out oh so so well for leftists thus far. Shit, it went so well we managed to legitimize the fascists in the eyes of quite a few people! /s

                            [–]Anzereke 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (6子コメント)

                            The desperate attempts at distancing this from the common rhetoric in this subreddit are a little entertaining.

                            Isn't this what some of you want? 'Cause I've seen people in this subreddit advocating for exactly this kind of thing.

                            So to those people, and you know who you are, let me just ask. After watching this video, is it what you wanted? Does it make you feel good?

                            Or does it make you understand why some of us don't want violent solutions if any other possibility is available.

                            [–]stardust_witch 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Isn't this what some of you want? 'Cause I've seen people in this subreddit advocating for exactly this kind of thing.

                            Where on this sub did you see people advocating for kidnapping and torturing the disabled?

                            [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                            I'm with u mate. I've had it up to my neck with the fucking edgelords. I'm glad r/lwse is gone and many of them seem to have disappeared from here and from meta for the moment.

                            [–]Anzereke 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            I'm just so fucking tired of having these dumbasses ruin the left's reputation.

                            We are losing ground everywhere, and yet still they refuse to stop screaming their nonsense. They refuse to stop attaching their goals to the movement. A childish buffoon like Trump gets elected, Brexit goes through, yet still they refuse to see how they are alienating support that we need if we're going to protect those who need protecting.

                            Then something like this happens and they don't even have the fucking guts to stand up and admit that this is exactly what they've been advocating for.

                            No no, this isn't politically and racially motivated violence in line with what has been called for. It's just ableism. Because that makes certain people able to not feel bad about advocating for this kind of shit.

                            It's pathetic is what it is.

                            [–]MoLoLu 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Behind you all the way. Been arguing exactly the same for over a year IRL, trying to get people to stop sprouting ideology and start thinking strategically, even if that means sacrificing a little for a much bigger gain. To little effect.

                            I was starting to think I was alone until this thread blew up.

                            [–]Galleani 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Isn't this what some of you want? 'Cause I've seen people in this subreddit advocating for exactly this kind of thing.

                            We are losing ground everywhere, and yet still they refuse to stop screaming their nonsense. They refuse to stop attaching their goals to the movement. A childish buffoon like Trump gets elected, Brexit goes throug

                            I've seen people advocate for violence against actual fascists and oppressors. I haven't seen anyone advocate for violence against random mentally disabled people.

                            Antifa tends to be pretty careful and pragmatic about its targets. If you're worried about "losing ground" to liberals because literal neo-Nazis get beat up, or because of Brexit and Trump, well, I just don't know what to say. Liberals turning reactionary is not a new thing. Brexit didn't happen because of antifa, it happened because of liberal fears of immigrants. Trump didn't get elected because of antifa.

                            I think maybe keep the focus on building a strong, solid left movement. Not trying to water it down so that fence-sitting liberals don't become more reactionary than they already are.

                            [–]Sprinkelz 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            I feel like a lot of people here have isolated this incidence from its historical context. Violence like this always happens under conditions of systemic racism. The further right the country swings the more things like this will happen, it's an inevitable psychological response to oppression. Any discussion about justification has to firstly address the historical context of white racism in America. Obviously this was an utterly horrible attack but to fully understand it we can't ignore or play down that this was a reaction to systemic violence.

                            [–]ProlierThanThou>blows up social relationship 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            The disabled and vulnerable are subjected to this sort of abuse at an alarming frequency. Framing this as a product of supposed 'anti-white' racism isn't going to help that.

                            [–]freedom_flower- fuck your white privilege 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Ableism from any race or class is unacceptable.

                            The most interesting matter is some people start to blame this for reverse racism. Interesting coming from anarchists supporting the hypothesis of 'reverse racism'.

                            [–]jay-20 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            'reverse' racism is nonsensical, end of conversation.

                            [–]Tzadikim 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            This is what happens when the Left is too disorganized, and too incompetent, to properly AEO.

                            Imagine an alternative: working-class institutions, bridging the divide between the white and black working-class communities, teaching historically tried-and-true methods of dealing with systemic racial oppression. Imagine a school for people who want to get involved but don't have some intuitive sense of who to direct their ire towards, or for what reasons.

                            The tragedy here is that these people felt the need to lash out in violence against what they take to be an apparatus of oppression, but, without proper political education, chose possibly the worst imaginable target for their activities.

                            We failed them, and we failed their victim by our inaction and inability to break through. And we ought to expect more acts of barbarism on all sides until we correct our mistakes.

                            [–]themrrinzler 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Thank you. This is probably the best reply I've seen to this thread.

                            [–]unitedpissdad 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Fucking appalling. Why couldn't they have done this to an actual fascist instead of some random mentally disabled guy? Talk about shitty praxis.

                            [–]KropotkinIsLove- Red, Black and Proud 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            You know, I'm all for fighting fascists. But I just don't understand why you would want to torture anyone. If you like to do something like that, you might have pretty big issues...

                            [–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (18子コメント)

                            This is an ableist hate crime, not a racial one. It is no coincidence that the victim is disabled. This is the physically powerful abusing the powerless, it's relation to race only comes after that central dynamic.

                            Do not ignore ableist violence.

                            Do not twist an example of ableist violence to fit agendas it has nothing to do with.

                            Do not delegitimize the struggle against ableism by making it secondary to other struggles.

                            [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            I don't mean to at all. I understand this primarily as an ableist hate crime. The victim was targeted for his disability primarily, his race was less important, they could have picked any white person but they specifically picked a disabled person who they thought it'd be easier to pick on.

                            But it's going to be understood as a racial hate crime as well, and that's not illegitimate to believe. It would be a hard case to prove "yeah they were all black, their victim was white, they said 'fuck white people' but they just as easily would have done this to a black disabled person."

                            [–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            It wasn't directed at you specifically, but it is annoying to see the thread OP talking about ableist abuse more in the context of race instead of, y'know, ableism.

                            [–][削除されました]  (6子コメント)

                            [removed]

                              [–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                              I know

                              1. That the victim was disabled

                              2. His disability was almost definitely a factor in why he was picked up, instead of literally any other white person

                              3. That they never said "we did this because you are white", and that all the racial and political statements we see only come after he was already tied up in the apartment

                              If I'm putting that on a scale, that tilts ableist every time.

                              I may be wrong in the end, but I'm not going to just shut the fuck up and let Nazis twist the story for their own ends waiting for a definitive conclusion.

                              [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                              Dude, cmon, you're being naive if you think "fuck white people" doesn't count as evidence, and you need a statement phrased as "we did this because you are white."

                              [–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                              Evidence for what?

                              I'm specifically talking about motivation, and saying "fuck white people" after everythings already in motion doesn't count.

                              [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              What do you mean "everything's already in motion"? Does it make it less racist (sorry, prejudiced) if they initially only wanted to fuck with a disabled kid but then while they had him tied up and were thinking up new ways to hurt him and humiliate him like making him drink toilet water, they suddenly had the idea to shout "fuck white people" at him, and to make him say it himself? Does it fucking matter? Does the timeline make any difference?

                              Why are you defending the indefensible right now dude?

                              [–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              I'm not defending anything, don't jacket me with that shit.

                              When we're talking about the motivation for committing the crime in the first place, what they say after the crime has already begun doesn't have much weight because in that sort of situation they might be in a completely different mindset at the different times.

                              [–][削除されました]  (7子コメント)

                              [removed]

                                [–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                They can be saying whatever the fuck they want, what matters is that out of every other white person around them, they chose a disabled man.

                                Again, no coincidence.

                                Fuck you.

                                [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

                                [removed]

                                  [–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                  Yeah? If we're going full keyboard warrior, then I'll be sure to fuck you up before that happens.

                                  Besides, your fucking wrong anyway. Dude's not even from the same city.

                                  [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

                                  [removed]

                                    [–]Topyka2| Burn Disneyland Down 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                    Yeah, yeah.

                                    Whatever you say, dude. As long as fascist trolls get put up first I'm good.

                                    [–]Amberkowicz1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                    I know I am late to the party, but I am glad we are discussing this event on here. Too often we ignore stories that don't benefit "us" altogether, leaving the narrative framing to others.

                                    As anarchists, we must stand opposed to this sort of action. This does nothing to dismantle power, nothing to destroy capitalism, and holds basically no strategic value whatsoever. Yes, it is unlikely that these folks are anarchists, but guess what? They will be associated with the left, particularly sects known for acts of violence.

                                    In general, we need to do a better job removing our ideological filters and realize that the world is not as clear cut as what we generally discuss here. We need to be vocal when something like this happens, just as we will be if this were the reverse.

                                    [–]freedom_flower- fuck your white privilege 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    This is the huge problem within POC community, and the lumpenpoletariat. Many kind of get the idea of insurrection against oppression, however they themselves are constantly taking part in the oppression, and many do not realize this.

                                    I once had something in common with these punks who tortured the disabled person. I used to hate white people to the point of hating everybody. If you happened to be white and you cross my path, blood will be spilled. Beaten many white punks in prison because they provoked me. I couldn't see past the ideology filters that blind me by hatred. Took a long time with a lot of struggle to stop doing these after I got out. Finally I discovered, many white folks are suffering the same struggle as many POC did. At first, I pitied them, and reaching the final point, I sympathize them.

                                    [–][削除されました]  (17子コメント)

                                    [removed]

                                      [–]comix_corp/non-violent-ish 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                      That's not an atrocity, that called the bail system. We're anarchists, we don't want anyone locked up who doesn't need to be there.

                                      [–]criticalnegation 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                      So person who playfully films the torture of a disabled person....not enough?

                                      While I'm not interested in splitting hairs, it seems odd to so "no prisons!....sometimes."

                                      [–]comix_corp/non-violent-ish 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                      Is she likely to reoffend since she's on bail? Is she likely to show at her court date? Is she likely to try and run off to another country? They're the kinds of questions that the legal system should ideally answer about people in gaol awaiting trial.

                                      I don't see how it's an atrocity that she's out on bail at all. Why is it so bad? Would you have preferred her bail to be higher, so that she'd only be able to be free if she was rich?

                                      There are murderers who have been released on bail while they await trial. At least wait until the trial has been conducted before making your final judgement.

                                      [–]criticalnegation 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      So you don't oppose prisons at all then, do you?

                                      [–]AirRaidJade 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      The most convenient time to escape is when you're out free on bail while awaiting trial. Bail should not be a thing. You should be in jail from the time you are arrested to the time you go to trial. Period. Fuck your freedom, you're a criminal - freedom is a privilege.

                                      [–][削除されました]  (5子コメント)

                                      [removed]

                                        [–]comix_corp/non-violent-ish 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                        Why?

                                        [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

                                        [removed]

                                          [–]comix_corp/non-violent-ish 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          I know that. But why is bail inappropriate in this case?

                                          [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

                                          [removed]

                                            [–]comix_corp/non-violent-ish 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            She did not commit the violence/sexual assault, and was not accused of that. I'm not going to shift on my principles because the far right might spin them into something else.

                                            [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

                                            [removed]

                                              [–]comix_corp/non-violent-ish 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Not at least until the trial is over. What she did was reprehensible, but not every reprehensible person requires being locked up before their trial has even began

                                              [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              I heard she was arrested

                                              [–]whatarrives 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              You all know how bail works, right? You should probably be into the idea of bail- Basically, rather than the state being allowed to put you in jail BEFORE you have a trail, they can only hold you for the purposes of making sure you return to court.

                                              Unless you think that we should punish people without trials, then you probably support there being a bail system. You should also support it being used in this case, because $1500 will probably be enough to ensure her return to court (especially if it's her first arrest, she has proven community ties and employment, etc). Paying bond doesn't allow you to escape punishment, it's that delay is withheld until guilt is determined.

                                              The alternative is punishment without trial, which I don't think any thinking person can really support.

                                              [–]ieatpussy69minimalist communist -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                              Chicago had 762 homicides in 2016.

                                              [–]originalpoopinbutt[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              So post something and let's talk about it. What's your point?

                                              [–]ieatpussy69minimalist communist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I'm just going to let it sit and make its own point.

                                              I don't think you'd have much to say about it anyways.