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[–]Jericho_HillI am a light against the darkness[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (1子コメント)

Hey , this was a good find and a unique R1 outside of what we normally see here. Let's find more things like this. Good job /u/worldofthislord.

[–]WorldOfthisLordSociopathic Wonk[S] 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (11子コメント)

As happens periodically, there is talk of fighters in the UFC wanting to form a union and get collective bargaining rights with the company (technically Zuffa, which operates the UFC). UFC President Dana White has come out against the talk of unionization, saying that "The fighting business is so different - this is an individual sport, this isn't a team sport. It's completely different. Let me tell you what. These fighters have managers for one fight and they fire them and then they're on to the next guy. It's a lot of crazy stuff that goes on in this business."

According to Jose Aldo, interim featherweight champion and unionization rabble-rouser, Dana told him that he should not "take anyone’s sides because the cake would be split the same for everyone, but I could get a bigger slice if I stayed quiet."

Finally, during another round of talks about unionization, the UFC released a memo to its fighters saying that they should not join a Teamsters and Culinary Union, because that would put them under the control

Unfortunately, while Mr. White is an excellent promoter, his analysis of the effects of a union on MMA is lacking. First, the that the UFC as an individual sport is different from a team sport in its negotiation is specious. The players in other major sports leagues, like Major League Baseball, don't negotiate as teams. They negotiate collectively when dealing with the League itself, e.g. during the players' strike of 1994, and they negotiate as individuals when dealing with different teams, at least after the reserve clause was struck down, which itself was owed to collective bargaining and the union thinking of Marvin Miller. The same would hold with the UFC. In negotiating basic terms with Zuffa, the fighters would be able to bargain as one. In negotiating between management teams, or between fighting organizations, the fighters would do so individually.

This also points to the problems with Dana's comments to Jose Aldo. The purpose of a union is to ensure a baseline for all fighters, especially those lowest on the totem pole, who are individually worth almost nothing to the UFC but are collectively incredibly valuable, as losing them would require a drastic cutback of events and the size of the undercard, which would in turn reduce their ability to find new stars in the making. Furthermore, highly valuable individual fighters would receive greater compensation, as can be seen in other sports. Alex Rodriguez still made hundreds of millions of dollars, and the largest contracts in the NFL are incredibly large as well. The UFC is smaller than the most popular sports leagues, so their top stars would expect to make less, but mega-draws like Conor McGregor and elite champions with a large home country following like Jose Aldo would still do extremely well for themselves.

The third and final quote, concerning the teamsters union, is a bit more sensible, but still fails. It is true that if a few fighters joined a union unconnected to MMA, they could suffer, as they would not be truly united, and their management team wouldn't know much about the ins and outs of MMA. A crucial point, however, is that this doesn't represent a huge change from the current way of doing business.

Fighters are already in it for themselves, and for every savvy negotiator, like McGregor, who is far and away the largest draw in the company and is working on getting partial ownership of the UFC, or Tyron Woodley, who actively attempted to get a fight with legendary retired champion Georges St. Pierre, and from there pestered the UFC until they put him on a card with McGregor, thereby ensuring he would have a million dollar windfall, as champions are paid extra according to the amount of buys a PPV gets, even if they didn't main event, there is a great number of fighters who can be lead around by the UFC. Former bantamweight champion TJ Dillashaw's wife is his manager, and he's stuck making $25,000 to show and $25,000 to win, despite being a former champion with two defenses and the #1 ranked bantamweight with another title eliminator on the horizon. Former middleweight champion negotiated with Lorenzo Fertitta himself, and while he is a man of many skills, professional fighters, who get punched in the face for a living, are rarely known as intellectuals.

At last, it is time for a quick rundown of the numbers and the economic theory now that we're done with the specifics of the UFC's situation. According to estimates (Zuffa is a private company without a CBA), fighters receive around 15% of the company's revenue, and over half that goes to fighters at the top of the sport. By comparison, in the NFL players are entitled to just under half the overall revenue in the MLB, the number is just below 40%, although it has been higher in the past.

Clearly, unions are doing something right for their members. We also see the benefits of unions in this case from an economic standpoint. Casey Mulligan outlines a few views of unions in the New York Times, describing Coase, Barro, and Friedman's differing takes on the situation. Coase's theorem implies that unions will not have too great a negative effect on the day to day running of the business, as what would be in the firm's interest without a union. Barro argues for unions based on the bargaining power they give workers, as a one to one negotiation is almost by definition fairer than a one to many. Friedman argues against them because they provide a monopoly on workers' ability to negotiate and move for themselves. This argument, however, applies less in the case of the UFC (and other professional sports leagues), because there is only one predominant game in town. Perhaps in an alternate universe where there are dozens of of competing MMA organizations, or football or baseball, fighters would be able to negotiate for themselves. But for now, they must deal with the UFC predominantly, so it is best to let them be united, rather than fighting like fish in a bucket.

[–]BEE_REAL_The People's Champ 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Perhaps in an alternate universe where there are dozens of of competing MMA organizations, or football or baseball, fighters would be able to negotiate for themselves. But for now, they must deal with the UFC predominantly, so it is best to let them be united, rather than fighting like fish in a bucket.

It's also important to note that in sports like the UFC where people can't practically compete in multiple leagues at once, monopolies provide better a better product than multiple competing organizations. A structure where there's one company and a unionized player/fighter base is better for the consumer than multiple companies splitting the best fighters/players.

[–]bananameltdown 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree that a single organization is best for consumers. For the fighters, however, what would create stronger wage demands, a single organization + collective bargaining rights, or multiple organizations competing for talent?

[–]TI_EX 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

As a fellow MMA fan I am quite interested in this issue, so perhaps you could expand on a few questions and thoughts I have. I have posted a lot of this stuff over at r/mma but don't usually get much discussion.

Firstly, I don't understand the purpose of comparing the percentage of player revenue across sports, and then claiming that the lower figure in the UFC means the fighters are getting less than they should be, or would be with a union. There are a wide range of costs that the UFC has that the sports leagues they are being compared to do not, and unlike something like the NFL, the UFC does not get any government support or subsidies. And furthermore, it is my understanding that the MLB, NHL, and NFL, and so on are non-profit leagues, or at least operate as such: doesn't that make comparing them to a for-profit promotion specious? We're also talking about entities with much higher revenue than the UFC. The NFL's revenue is estimated to be over 10 billion. According to Dave Meltzer, the UFC, in 2015, made $157 million gross profit on $608 million revenue (reported here). In the same year fighters made 13% of revenue. In 2014, the UFC made around $74 million off $450 million. In a sports league more on par with the UFC revenue wise, the AFL (Australian Football League - 506 million revenue in 2015) players only get 22% of revenue (this is a 2014 figure)- and that's with a player's association (who are pushing for 27%) and collective bargaining. But the comparison still make little sense because the AFL operates as a non-profit - and is just a different sport with different costs (it only operates in one country, for example).

In the UFC's case, for example, we have to consider that WME-IMG took out almost 2 billion dollars worth of loans to finance their recent acquisition of the UFC. For the period from July 1, 2015 to June 30, 2016, the UFC's EBITDA was $142 million, making the company debt is 12.7 times earnings - and Goldman Sachs received a warning by the Fed for their role in financing this. According to Meltzer they are looking at around $137 million annually just in interest payments alone.

WME-IMG are cutting costs very heavily, so i don't understand where this extra money to pay fighters is supposed to come from. I think this is what Dana was talking about when he made his comments on Aldo - the share of revenue going to the fighters doesn't have much room to move without drastic cuts in operating expenses or significant increases in revenue. The top guys would in all likelihood have to limit their earning potential to support lower level fighters, and what is their motivation to support such an endeavour? Likewise, lower level guys, and international fighters in particular, might also face the axe if they price themselves too high via collective bargaining. You can say that the UFC needs these fighters to fill up cards, but we are already seeing WME-IMG cutting costs by scaling back the size and reach of the company, reducing the number of international events in particular. This could be bad news for a number of fighters who don't have much to offer in terms of skill or potential, but who bolster the appeal of less profitable cards in local markets.

[–]Majromax 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And furthermore, it is my understanding that the MLB, NHL, and NFL, and so on are non-profit leagues, or at least operate as such: doesn't that make comparing them to a for-profit promotion specious?

Not at all, because individual teams are for-profit ventures. The leagues themselves exist to organize play and to distribute revenues fairly among the teams, so their non-profit status is more reasonable.

You could only argue that a greater player split is par for the course if the leagues are leaving significant (half to two-thirds, given the ratios involved) on the table. Since tickets are sold at market rates and broadcast rights get sold dearly, I can't imagine where these missing revenues would come from.

In the UFC's case, for example, we have to consider that WME-IMG took out almost 2 billion dollars worth of loans to finance their recent acquisition of the UFC.

That's not particularly relevant. The worth of players collectively has to do with the amount of revenue they bring to the UFC, not what UFC's internal cost structure is like. That debt is a sunk cost, and WME-IMG will be responsible for it if UFC remains as-is, unionizes, or folds.

[–]throwmehomey 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

they borrowed at 6.8%pa? wow

[–]devinejoh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Do the other major sports leagues in North America have escrow for the player salaries? It seems likely that there will be another lockout in 2022 when the current CBA expires and the likely cause will be the uncapped escrow.

[–]FatBabyGiraffe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The NFL does which is one reason why owners don't want to guarantee contracts.

[–]devinejoh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

How does that work? If for example Gronk started to play like shit the Patriots can just void his contract?

[–]FatBabyGiraffe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Depends on Gronk's contract. He has $12.9 mil guaranteed so that is put into escrow immediately and the Patriots draw from it each year. If Belichick cuts him, the Patriots still pay him his guaranteed money but no bonuses. They also have the dead cap space to deal with - which is why teams will keep them on rather than cut, see Bear's and Cutler.

[–]EveRommelHarambe died for our Prax 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have a question about this.

Do you think the ease of entry into the MMA world would undermine the ability for them to form an effective union?

I have been in the MMA world for the last 5 years and from my perpective the ease of entry into the "professional" fight game is ridiculously easy. All you have to do is sign a piece of paper that your a pro and you are in. There is also such a glut of trained fighters that it is easy to find new people if someone becomes too expensive or isn't reliable.

On the flip side the money that a fighter has so many risks they take to get a fight. The injury rate for the top fighters is extremely high, Cain Velasquez was injured for almost 2 years. There is such a high turn over of fighers and a need for a large back up roster, would it be effective to have a union in a high turn over industry such as fighting?

[–]BobPlager 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It seems pretty clear-cut to me: If a set of laborers can organize and demand better conditions/wages without being undercut by people who can do the job well enough in their stead, they should do so so long as nobody defects (in this case, the few top earners who are outliers in the revenue would need to be loyal to the detriment of their own income for the benefit of the rest of the fighters who are more numerous). If they can stay loyal, the UFC wouldn't have much of a choice to bargain with them collectively since, if the UFC locks them out or allows them to walk, they'll obviously lose all their revenue to whatever other company might pay them and put their fights on. It seems like, due to the level of demand of the best players and their lack of substitues, sports tend to be one of the few clear-cut areas where unions make plenty of sense (except for stuff like European soccer where there are numerous leagues that players can play for and make the same money).

Long story short, if they can, they should. Am I missing anything?

[–]Assy-McGee 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If they can stay loyal, the UFC wouldn't have much of a choice to bargain

The fighters are forced into loyalty, or at least the champions are. Every fighter in the organization has a "Champion's Clause" where the current contract is automatically renewed, and the fighter cannot leave when they have the belt. Read about what happened to Randy Couture when he was the heavyweight champion and tried to fight Fedor in another promotion.

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