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[–]gorbachev[S] 80 ポイント81 ポイント  (81子コメント)

Gather round ye endogeneity taliban, for the people have been lead astray. They have listened to the psychologists and erected false idols, replacing their devotion to RCTs and quasi experimental methods with worship for panel data models - forgetting entirely their duty to have a real identification strategy.

A summary of the problem: a psych metanalysis of the literature on how spanking affects children was recently published. While it dutifully has a "oh yeah, btw, none of this is causal" tossed into its conclusion, it doesn't truly understand just how squonked that literature really is. You see, the paper realize that it's no good that 70% (exactly) of the literature it surveys is cross sectional. But then it notes that the longitudinal studies also see similar effects, proudly reminding us that longitudinal studies have "strong" research designs because the spanking temporally precedes the outcomes measured in the study. The 4 experimental studies in that metanalysis find weaker results on the effect of spanking, and are all profoundly limited. Naturally, the psych people employ no quasi experimental methods.

Oh boy. Look. It's not enough to have a one liner about how maybe parents that spank their kids are different from parents that don't. That's not an incidental issue that probably averages out to 0. If parental investment in children is negatively associated with being the kind of parent that spanks children, you get a negative effect of spanking on child outcomes unrelated to the actual spanking itself. Even if your study is using within family variation, parents may invest less in trouble maker kids that they spank. Even if your study does a difference in difference looking at (trouble maker vs non trouble maker) child outcomes in spanking vs non spanking families, you still have the problem that spanking parents may be differentially less able to parent trouble maker children - perhaps due to their own lack of the additional economic or cognitive resources required to do so. (Not that the psych literature did this. Think of this part as an R1 of their future literature.)

So, what do we have? A literature on the effect of spanking that is hopelessly bogged down in the swamps of endogeneity. A metanalysis of that literature that technically admits this, but doesn't take that seriously.

And of course, an army of r/science redditors + journalists aggressively interpreting these correlations as causal. Some people are wise enough to asterisk this with correlation vs causation type boilerplate, and some even seem to really understand that issue. But for every post like that, there's another post that says "Yeah but it's a metanalysis so it must be right" (garbage in, gold out) or - worse - "Yeah, but it's confirmed by panel studies - the spanking happens first, so it isn't reverse causality and we're good" (endogeneity don't real).

Oh well, let's be constructive for a moment. How would an empirical micro economist address this? What sorts of variation might we try to use? Things we might try include looking for an effect via assignment to teachers that do or do not spank their students (where and when this was legal). You might exploit variation induced by laws banning spanking in schools. Another might try to exploit assignment in the foster care system to foster parents that do or do not spank. Going forward, you could run experiments trying to persuade randomly chosen parents to stop spanking. Maybe you can find natural experiment versions of this in the past, where perhaps there were such persuasion campaigns via public TV or something. None of these study ideas are perfect. They don't solve every issue. But at least their identification strategy is better than "spanking happened before the outcome variable, so we're probably ok".

Author's disclosure: I do not know anything about what spanking really does. I do not care what it really does. I profoundly hope that anyone that believes they know the true effect of spanking does not share that alleged wisdom in this thread.

Tldr: repent to the true faith, as detailed literally in the text of Mostly Harmless Econometrics.

[–]guga31bbeducation policy 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Woo, a micro post! Great writeup. From the linked article:

As part of their meta-analysis, Gershoff and Grogan-Kaylor looked at the association between spanking (defined for their study as an open-handed smack of a child’s bottom or extremities) and 17 potential detrimental outcomes. They found a significant link between the punishment and 13 of the 17 outcomes, suggesting that spanking ends up doing more harm than good.

“The upshot of the study is that spanking increases the likelihood of a wide variety of undesired outcomes for children,” said Grogan-Kaylor.

Stop talking about an association like it's causal! Bad!

[–]instrumentrainfallI'm a (Project) STAR \ 'Cause I slay 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Stop talking about an association like it's causal! Bad!

When I was an undergrad RA, my lab used to make me wear a (metaphorical) dunce hat every time I made that mistake.

[–]Lambchops_LegionThe Rothbard and his lute 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I bet it built character huh?

I'm going to do an analysis on the association between RA performance and frequency of wearing metaphorical dunce hats.

[–]Jericho_HillI am a light against the darkness 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Honestly thats not a bad idea

[–]instrumentrainfallI'm a (Project) STAR \ 'Cause I slay 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Don't you already haze your interns enough =P?

[–]Jericho_HillI am a light against the darkness 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

honestly probably going to have one do this actually

[–]geezerman 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or, ramping up to the societal level, the fact that fuller prisons are strongly associated with higher crime rates forces us to embrace the likelihood that punishing crime increases its incidence (an argument repeated often by the NY Times during the Giuliani years.)

[–]kaiser_xcMorally Hazardous AF 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Also, if you only look for bad outcomes, that's all you'll find.

[–]CMaldoror 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not really, they could have decreased, alhtough there probably still is a targeting problem...

[–]mrsamsa 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh boy. Look. It's not enough to have a one liner about how maybe parents that spank their kids are different from parents that don't. That's not an incidental issue that probably averages out to 0. If parental investment in children is negatively associated with being the kind of parent that spanks children, you get a negative effect of spanking on child outcomes unrelated to the actual spanking itself. Even if your study is using within family variation, parents may invest less in trouble maker kids that they spank. Even if your study does a difference in difference looking at (trouble maker vs non trouble maker) child outcomes in spanking vs non spanking families, you still have the problem that spanking parents may be differentially less able to parent trouble maker children - perhaps due to their own lack of the additional economic or cognitive resources required to do so. (Not that the psych literature did this. Think of this part as an R1 of their future literature.)

But presumably this is why they pointed out that research shows that interventions that aim to reduce spanking also show a decrease in the usually observed problems behaviors (so we have a reversal design here demonstrating the direction we'd predict if spanking caused the problems)? This combined with the dose-dependent effects (with more spanking showing more negative outcomes) and the basic experimental research on punishment that causally demonstrates the same outcomes, the research seems to be on a fairly solid foundation.

I don't think the metastudy is meant to be a deathblow by itself, it should really be understood in the greater framework of research on spanking and punishment. The aim of this study was just to answer questions about whether the effect sizes for spanking are distinct from those for physical abuse, and whether these effects are robust to study design - both of which seem to be adequately addressed by the data.

[–]forlackofabetterword 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (12子コメント)

What exactly in endogenity? I sort of get the idea but I've never heard it defined well.

[–]guga31bbeducation policy 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (11子コメント)

When you're trying to estimate the causal effect of X but X is correlated with the (unobserved) error term. The wikipedia page is a good place to start.

The shortest way to say it is non-random assignment to treatment status

[–]forlackofabetterword 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Error term?

[–]marpool 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Of the regression. The effect of x on y is represented by the coefficient beta of x in the equation y=betax+error. You gather data and estimate beta. Th error term is the unexplained difference between y and betax by your model. Endogeniety occurs when x is related to the error term and this causes the estimate of beta to become biased among other things.

[–]forlackofabetterword 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Okay I mostly got it

[–]marpool 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

If any part is unclear just ask, I have a econometrics exam coming up soon, so explaining it is good practise for me.

[–]forlackofabetterword 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Honestly I feel like I could use an ELI5, ie remove all the jargon. What I've been getting so far is that it means that while x and you are correlated, there's another variable that is actually causing both, and you can't tell. Is that close to accurate? I've honestly never taken a econometrics, or micro, or a real statistics course before outside of the basics.

[–]PonderayFollows an AR(1) process 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In metrics we're trying to get some good estimate about the effect of a change on some variable, let's call it x, on some outcome variable let's call it y. To do so we try to control for other things that can effect y. But that's always going to be imperfect. And if our inability to properly control for the other stuff means we get a wrong estimate for x we say their endogeniety.

[–]marpool 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay. Say you have a variable Y. Say the equation for it is Y=X+Z+error (this is the true model, so what is actually happing. This is what we are trying to work out at when doing econometrics but we dont actually know it in the real world).

Now if when doing the estimation (trying to work out the values in front of X and Z in the true model, in this case 1 and 1) you dont include Z. A good estimator for the value of A in the equation Y=AX+error (you have data in the form of pairs of Y and X values) is the mean of Y divided by the mean of X. This is only a good estimator when Y=AX is the true model though.

Now let the average for Y be 10. The average for X be 8 and the average for Z be 2 (as the average for Y is the sum of the average of X and Z). So your estimate for A is 1.25. Leaving out the Z has caused the estimate to be different from the actual value (when doing real statistics there is variation in he estimate due to the sample of data not being a fully accurate representation of the population but i am ignoring that here).The Z was actually hiding in the error term in the Y=AX+error equation.

There are also other causes of endogeneity such as reverse causality (X causes Y but Y also causes X).

[–]Subotangender gap guru 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ok, let's assume there'a s tudy that compares vegetarians with non-vegetarians, and it says that vegetarians live longer. Great, you might think, but this doesn't prove anything - what if there are things associated with going veggie that might also be associated with living longer? Such things might be income, education, geography, race etc. You need to account for all these things (control, in the statistical sense) if you're going to be able to try to isolate the specific effect of going vegetarian upon lifespan.

One way you might do this would be a regression (marpool explains this). Another might be through a randomised control experiment - randomly allocating vegetarianism to loads of individuals who are randomly taken from the population (and are therefore representative) and observing their lifespan. Because randomness eliminates these other factors, it means we can observe a direct veggie effect easily.

[–]Nimitz14 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The way I've understood it in this context is that, what's being assumed in the study is that the outcome (y) is just dependent on spanking or not spanking (beta) of the parents (x): y=beta*x+error. Which ignores the fact that parents can influence things in many other ways too (x*error). y=beta*x + error*x

[–]FizzleMateriel 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are there ways to overcome this, say by adding more variables and increasing sample size to reduce the error term and endogeneity?

Edit: I've heard the term a lot but I've never heard how it's supposed to be resolved or what you're supposed to do when the error term is correlated with X other than "make sure it doesn't happen".

[–][deleted] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You have two options: Find a source of exogenous variation or find an instrument. Instruments are correlated with the "bad" variable, but uncorrelated with the error term, so there are methods to get unbiased estimates using the instrument.

[–]lib-boyancrap 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (40子コメント)

How would an empirical micro economist address this?

Studying spanking of adopted siblings and separated twins seems like another good starting point.

[–]instrumentrainfallI'm a (Project) STAR \ 'Cause I slay 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (39子コメント)

Eh, wouldn't really help much. I doubt there is a large genetic component to spanking.

[–]chaosmosisKasich/AutoModerator 2020 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (37子コメント)

I think there easily could be. An awful lot of personality is genetically influenced. Genes for conscientiousness exist, and seem likely to be correlated with self-control and other relevant qualities.

[–]guga31bbeducation policy 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The main threat to identification is that parents who spank may be different in other unobservable ways. Let's assume there are 2 types of parents: "insane" ones who feed their children lead and spank their kids, and "normal" ones who do neither. Then children who are adopted by the "insane" parents will have bad outcomes whether or not spanking is harmful in and of itself. Adoption doesn't get around the fact that spanking is a choice made by parents and could be correlated with other choices made by parents.

[–]tradetheorist3Samuelson's Angel 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

There are ways to mitigate this effect to a large extent. You can look at how often the parents do parent-y things like taking the child out on trips, the degree of affection shown by the parents towards the child, how often the child listens to his/her parents. In fact, there's a paper that has already done this. See my post in the gold thread.

[–]guga31bbeducation policy 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is basically just "control for everything we can observe" but is not a persuasive identification strategy and would never get published in a good econ journal. Mitigate, yes; solve, no.

[–]tradetheorist3Samuelson's Angel 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's certainly not cast iron proof, but I think it's enough to conclude that it's likely that spanking has unintended adverse effects. And given the ethical barriers, it's about the best we can do.

[–][deleted] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

And given the ethical barriers, it's about the best we can do.

Somewhere Esther Duflo is shedding a tear.

Have pediatricians randomly give out anti-spanking literature to some parents. Blimbo blambo you got yourself a Wald estimator.

[–]instrumentrainfallI'm a (Project) STAR \ 'Cause I slay 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Blimbo blambo

This is my new favorite phrase.

[–]chaosmosisKasich/AutoModerator 2020 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree that adoption studies wouldn't eliminate all difficulties. I was only speaking to the issue of whether there's likely a genetic component to spanking related behavior.

[–]iamelbenI am the Walras 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (29子コメント)

Genes for conscientiousness exist

That is not a thing. We do not have genes for conscientiousness. We do not have genes for personality.

We know genetic influence in personality exist. We know that gene expression (which is influenced by environment, social factors, and a whole lot of other stuff) has a big part to play here.

[–][deleted] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

When will the world learn that coefficients on genetics are fundamentally unidentified?

[–]TheManWhoPanders 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (27子コメント)

We do not have genes for personality

This is untrue. There are genes that control one's susceptibility to anger, for example. Naturally this, like all similar discussions, are part nature part nurture. To say genetics do not control elements of personality is strictly false though.

[–]iamelbenI am the Walras 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (26子コメント)

THAT IS NOT HOW GENES WORK. Genes do not code for traits. Genes are NOT blueprints. This means you can't, for example, insert "the genes for an elephant's trunk" into a giraffe and get a giraffe with a trunk. There are no genes for trunks. What you CAN do with genes is chemistry, since DNA codes for chemicals.

Mad props to whoever gets that reference.

[–]Maltek 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'll just go back to playing impossible creatures and pretend that I never read this.

[–]ToughSpaghetti 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

God, good throwback / great game.

[–]chaosmosisKasich/AutoModerator 2020 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I already understand this principle, but Deidre is a way better civ. Tailoring my language to match the exact way genes work is annoying semantic bs.

[–]TheManWhoPanders 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (22子コメント)

That is remarkably inaccurate. Genes are blueprints. That's literally what DNA is. Among the many types of proteins that they encode for there are genes for signalling hormones and receptors. Different alleles produce different phenotypes.

Consider the psychopath. They literally have genetics that make them unable to feel empathy. This is something that is well understood.

[–]iamelbenI am the Walras 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I mean, /u/besttrousers closed the door on this conversation, but I'd invite you to consider epigenetics, the science of how genes are expressed. Think of genes less as blueprints and more as a master catalog of traits. A whole suite of external factors, including environment, hormones (especially stress hormones), and diet can literally change how genes are expressed.

Here's something to get you started.

[–]TheManWhoPanders 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Look, I mean this in the nicest way, but you're out of your depth here. No different than if I came in here and told the top posters "Guys, perhaps you need to have a look at this Intro to Econ textbook by Robert Hall". It's remarkably condescending about a subject you don't have even a cursory understanding of.

Yes, we know about genetics. Genes very often don't result in a one-to-one relationship with a corresponding phenotype, due to multivariate factors like epigenetics, RNAi regulation, etc.

None of that takes away from the fact that genetics control, to some degree or other, the corresponding phenotype. The implication in the original argument was that it was nurture and not nature, which is blatantly false.

[–]besttrousers 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

That's literally what DNA is.

No, it's not.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15994704

A central phrase in the new "GeneTalk" is "X is a gene for Y," in which X is a particular gene on the human genome and Y is a complex human disorder or trait. This article begins by sketching the historical origins of this phrase and the concept of the gene-phenotype relationship that underlies it. Five criteria are then proposed to evaluate the appropriateness of the "X is a gene for Y" concept: 1) strength of association, 2) specificity of relationship, 3) noncontingency of effect, 4) causal proximity of X to Y, and 5) the degree to which X is the appropriate level of explanation for Y. Evidence from psychiatric genetics is then reviewed that address each of these criteria. The concept of "a gene for..." is best understood as deriving from preformationist developmental theory in which genes-like preformationist anlagen-"code for" traits in a simple, direct, and powerful way. However, the genetic contribution to psychiatric disorders fails to meet any of the five criteria for the concept of "X is a gene for Y." The impact of individual genes on risk for psychiatric illness is small, often nonspecific, and embedded in complex causal pathways. The phrase "a gene for..." and the preformationist concept of gene action that underlies it are inappropriate for psychiatric disorders.

[–]TheManWhoPanders 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (11子コメント)

That doesn't in any way or shape counter what I stated. No offense but this isn't your area of expertise, it's mine. You've simply pointed out that phenotypes aren't as simple as "This Gene = Phenotype", which is true. Biochemists understand pleitropy and genetic heterogeneity. What you've done is the geneticist equivalent of "Rocks are bullshit!"

[–]Ludendorff 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (8子コメント)

MHE? That's my textbook for my advanced econometrics class! It's like, we have a bible now or something.

[–]besttrousers 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (7子コメント)

MHE? That's my textbook for my advanced econometrics class! It's like, we have a bible now or something.

Eliminated some extraneous text.

[–]colacocaR1 submitter 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I bought MHE for personal reading. Is it really a good tour of micro econometrics without dumbing down the material? Or is it more of a reminder of things you should have gone over in an advanced metrics course?

[–]besttrousers 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

More the latter. Get Mastering Metrics by the same authors for the former.

[–]colacocaR1 submitter 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ah, bummer. Is MHE still worth reading if I don't have much experience in applied econometrics? I am pretty familiar with basic theory, so the jargon shouldn't go over my head. I just want a longer version of The Credibility Revolution... and an intro to stuff like fixed effects, regression discontinuity, diff-in-diff, etc.

[–]besttrousers 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Definitely.

The first half of each chapter is pretty good reading and intuition.

It then gets increasingly technical.

[–]IntegraldsLiving on a Lucas island 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

MHE a good tour of a very specific corner of applied micro-econometrics. It's reasonably accessible. Mastering Metrics is the newer, shinier, even more undergrad-friendly version. MHE is also genuinely fun to read, a property most textbooks lack.

It is no substitute for a proper education in micro-econometrics and panel data, such as what you'd get from Cameron & Trivedi or big Wooldridge.

Also read Diebold's mini-review.

[–]colacocaR1 submitter 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks! So Mastering Metrics is more undergrad friendly in the sense that it's more accessible or that it is more directed to teaching you the subject matter?

[–]VodkaHazePython pRoletariat 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah. Did you ever read through big Woolridge or Davidson & McKinnon? No undergrad except the most battle hardened would dare go through that. I don't mind Stock & Watson that much, though, it's good at getting the intuition across while remaining formal.

[–]VodkaHazePython pRoletariat 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (5子コメント)

If you want to cringe about more work in psychometrics, go look at papers using "Kessler scores". Then read up on what a "Kessler score" is.

It's an aggregation of qualitative ordered variable responses, interpreted as a quantitative variable (eg. they aggregate scores of [dislike a lot/dislike/like/like a lot] for multiple survey questions into one variable)

gaaaah

[–]kznlolPhD Students are better (DellaVigna & Pope, 2016) 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

[–]PonderayFollows an AR(1) process 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That happens a lot. Scientists seem to be obsessed with those things. QUALY's are basically the same idea.

[–]thesublieutenantBasically a Psychologist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I had someone ask a psychometrics prof at my school about that because it was in a paper a student used in an essay. His response?

"Everyone makes mistakes".

[–]thelamset 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are you trash talking all personality tests? Having an imprecise measure is better than not having any. A proper psychometric scale should be crafted like a standardized knowledge test, and undergo lots of work utilizing factor analyses, Cronbach's alpha, etc. on top of a reasonable theory. I agree that most of the ad hoc stuff is low quality, but the well established ones like NEO PI-R or MMPI are no junk.

Or were you talking about something more specific?

[–]VodkaHazePython pRoletariat 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Specifically Kessler scores, because of what I said. Remember the key assumption behind ordered qualitative variables is that the difference between 1 and 2 is not the same as between 2 and 3 (look at amazon reviews to get the idea). Models like ordered probit deal with this well, so these sorts of qualitative surveys are a good source of data for social scientist.

The problem is in the aggregation. Saying that 4/5 + 2/5 = 6/10 is tenuous at best because that 4 is very different from that 2.were adding apples with oranges. Repeat this process 10 or 20 times and you have a Kessler score, which I'm fine if you use for a rule of thumb on individual patients (Im no psychologist, who am I to judge) but if you run OLS on a sample populations kessler scores, then I'm cringing

[–]TheManWhoPanders 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm completely ambivalent to the spanking issue, but I do love me a rational analysis beatdown.

[–]Thurgood_Marshall -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

None of these study ideas are perfect.

Most of them are unethical.

[–]wumbotarianhemispheric common market 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I wasn't spanked as a kid and I became a freshwater macro guy.

You should all spank your kids if you don't want them becoming libertarians.

[–]IntegraldsLiving on a Lucas island 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Spanking should only be performed amongst consenting adults.

[–]wumbotarianhemispheric common market 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

;-) you would get along with /u/___OccamsChainsaw___ and I

[–]___OccamsChainsaw___ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A better birthday present I can't imagine.

[–]BenJacksimmoral hazard 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is exactly why I will spank my kids. They need to learn to respect the authority of the state.

[–]DrSandbagsSurgically-Augmented Dickey-Fuller 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll spank my kids because they need to learn that private law and enforcement are viable.

[–]Polisskolan2 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

How should I spank my children if I want them to become anarcho-primitivist neuroeconomists?

[–]wumbotarianhemispheric common market 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Spank firmly but only on the right cheek.

[–]Polisskolan2 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So that's why my first son turned out all wrong (conservative ethnolinguist). I kept spanking him indecisively on the wrong cheek.

[–]devinejoh 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Going down the macro route is like choosing between bloods and crips

#microgods

[–]ucstruct 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (5子コメント)

/r/science can be infuriating sometimes. Along the "someone tell me why this is wrong" attitude you get the correlation/causation jerk that is prevalent on this site. Both are ways to make it seem like you know what you're talking about without really having to do the work.

[–]CupBeEmpty 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (4子コメント)

/r/science is almost always infuriating. Way too many people there take a one off study or a meta analysis as gospel truth. Also, any study that confirms a popular opinion on Reddit is definitely true and anyone that argues otherwise is an ascientific witch doctor. Then you have the thinly veiled political stuff where something was recently in the news so someone digs up one study to show that all republicans are stupid or something. The comment sections are almost uniformly awful even if the paper being discussed is interesting.

[–]ucstruct 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I know the mods try, and its way better than it used to be. But after x million subscribers it becomes really hard to keep quality up.

[–]FizzleMateriel 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Correlation ≠ Causation. It could be that shittier quality lead to more subscribers.

/s

[–]TheManWhoPanders 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're not wrong. It used to be a ridiculous shithole years ago. The /r/politics of science.

All things considered, the top comments are generally pretty good.

[–]kznlolPhD Students are better (DellaVigna & Pope, 2016) 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I learn more about econometrics from your posts than I do from actual econometrics classes.

[–]gorbachev[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

<3

[–]Homeboy_JesusOn average economists are pretty mean 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (69子コメント)

Interested to see the economics you find in this.

[–]messenakAcademic Imperator 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Psychology is a social science and therefore the demesne of Economics.

[–]iamelbenI am the Walras 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Psychology is a social science and therefore the demesne of Economics.

Psychology is de Jure a vassal of economics. Deus vult!

[–]rslake 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

My prisoner, Dr. Sigmund Freud, is complaining about his dark cell in the dungeon, asking for more suitable accomodations...

  • Let him rot

  • Very well, I shall be merciful

  • Suitable? How about the oubliette?!

[–]iamelbenI am the Walras 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

There is only one correct answer. Ransom him.

[–]davidjricardoR1 submitter 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"There is only social science and we are its practitioners" ~ George Stigler (possible apocryphal).

[–]devinejoh 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

#myleigeismybitch

[–]gorbachev[S] 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (18子コメント)

The bad economics is that these people haven't yet come to the one true faith of Angrist and Pischke. And since we're at the start of a new age of econ imperialism, it's our duty to bring them to the light of MHE.

But yeah, it's true that this is more "economics says you're bad" than "bad economics per se". But with such a blatant case of bad research design in such desperate need of some Mostly Harmless, I had to submit.

[–]VodkaHazePython pRoletariat 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (16子コメント)

I dislike the "if this isn't macro/labour/IO it isn't econ" thing going on recently here. We don't get that many RIs, and if you can publish a paper in a respectable economics journal about it, then you should be able to post a RI here about it.

[–]guga31bbeducation policy 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I dislike the "if this isn't macro/labour/IO it isn't econ" thing going on recently here

Yeah, it's lame. I think someone said that on my last RI, too. Guess what -- economists study all sorts of things that aren't typically thought of as economics! It's a toolkit, not (only) a subject.

[–]besttrousers 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Earlier in the week someone was complaining that an article from the NBER (that had been posted to /r/economics) was not economics.

[–]VodkaHazePython pRoletariat 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'll just start posting this everywhere.

  • "I think we should leave the study of [human behavior/education] to [psychologists/sociologists]"

  • "Not sure this minimum wage discussion is economics"

  • "The Great Depression is not economics. It's history."

  • "Are you sure DSGE models are economics, really?"

[–]besttrousers 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

  • "Robinson Crusoe economics are really English literature."

  • "The Transpacific Pact is really a matter for international law."

  • "The effects of automation on employment is really for scomputer scientists to study."

[–]wumbotarianhemispheric common market 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I recently bought a scomputer, actually. It automated away my hobbies.

[–]ivansmlhotshot with a theory 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (10子コメント)

if you can publish a paper in a respectable economics journal about it

And could you? I mean a paper looking at association between spanking and anti-social behavior or mental health issues in children? Probably not.

I have nothing against this thread being here, I find it interesting, but this economic imperialism attitude can be annoying as well. Yes, economists can often contribute to other fields, but just because a topic has been touched by some economists doesn't necessarily make the topic itself a part of economics. Running ivregress in Stata on some psych data doesn't mean you're conquering another field for the greater glory of economic science. It just means you're doing psychology research, regardless of what your degree was in.

[–]gorbachev[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

And could you? I mean a paper looking at association between spanking and anti-social behavior or mental health issues in children? Probably not.

If I had a paper showing a policy could affect parenting strategies (spanking vs not, or whatever) and demonstrated an impact on child non-cognitive skills or other long run outcomes, you bet your butt that's a nice publication.

I mean, is this area really all that distant from what Heckman's doing?

[–]ivansmlhotshot with a theory 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (6子コメント)

But the literature discussed here doesn't look at long-run outcomes, it looks specifically at children's behavior. Yes, you could then link that to long-run outcomes, like Heckman - but my understanding is that his work is primarily about link between noncognitive skills and things like earnings, employment, occupation choice... all traditional subjects in labor economics and thus something in which an economist can bring some domain expertise to the table. I don't see how you could say the same about the impact of spanking on child's anxiety or agression... that seems like a purely psychological issue, for studying which psychologists should have obvious comparative advantage.

[–]gorbachev[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The metanalysis does talk about papers trying to get at long run outcomes, however. It isn't just short run behavioral issues. They're basically trying to show that spanking sends your children's noncogs into the toilet forever. If economists are going to do tons of research about education, crime, and health with a large focus on what does and does not build noncognitive skills -- in that case, it's hard to see why we would leave parenting style out of it. Especially given the amount of time those papers spend thinking about parenting style / parental investment as a possible confounder. Interventions to affect parenting style probably already are a topic of research in economics. The BAM study gets presented in economics seminars. I don't see why this is so different.

[–]ivansmlhotshot with a theory 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

If economists are going to do tons of research about education, crime, and health

But should they actually? Do they have some specific comparative advantage in studying these topics, beyond their intersection with traditional economics? Randomized control trials are not unique to economics, and neither is training in statistical methods (and even if economists on average are more competent in stats than researchers from other fields, that situation will probably not last as those other fields will catch up).

The BAM study gets presented in economics seminars.

Still doesn't really make it economics. But don't get me wrong, I have nothing against economists participating in such research if they can bring some meaningful contribution. I just hope they also collaborate with people from other fields while doing so.

I mean we see our fair share of ignorant outsiders coming in thinking they can revolutionize economics by applying models from physics or biology, and it's always painful to watch. Which is why economists should be perhaps careful to not do the same in criminology, education or public health.

[–]gorbachev[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

"90% of the empirical micro seminar series is not actually about economics."

I agree that the other fields are beginning to catch up on the whole quasi-experimental methods thing. They're picking up our methods and theories. We're also borrowing from them. The social sciences are merging, to some degree or another. It's weird to try and gate guard some old definition of economics or another. Empirically, economists are doing ed research and health research and crimonological research... and making major contributions in those fields. Contributions which those fields are recognized, because economists are getting cited in those fields and occasionally are getting published in those fields.

Put another way, T/F the following individuals aren't really doing real economics:

T/F Jim Heckman

T/F Roland Fryer

T/F Richard Thaler

T/F Esther Duflo

T/F Emily Oster

T/F Jens Ludwig

T/F Steve Levitt

[–]guga31bbeducation policy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I can't believe you left Chetty off this list!

[–]VodkaHazePython pRoletariat 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean we see our fair share of ignorant outsiders coming in thinking they can revolutionize economics by applying models from physics or biology, and it's always painful to watch. Which is why economists should be perhaps careful to not do the same in criminology, education or public health.

The possible good far outweighs the bad, though. We get a few crank econophysics papers, and we get some genuinely good researchers joining the field sometimes.

Also, are you seriously implying economics didn't positively contribute to education or public health?

[–]guga31bbeducation policy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This guy gets itin my totally unbiased opinion

[–]IntegraldsLiving on a Lucas island 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And could you? I mean a paper looking at association between spanking and anti-social behavior or mental health issues in children? Probably not.

With a clever identification strategy, QJE would eat that up. AEJ Applied, too. Hell you could get it into AER proper with a cute title.

[–]instrumentrainfallI'm a (Project) STAR \ 'Cause I slay 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The applied microeconomics Holy Trinity: Angrist, Pischke, and Rubin.

May the God of causality bless you with exogenous variation and internal validity.

[–]besttrousers 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (34子コメント)

Seems like there's room for a Becker-y approach.

[–]gorbachev[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

There's room for an Angristy approach.

[–][deleted] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

... you wouldn't like me when I'm Angristy...

[–][deleted] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you're having a temper tantrum you probably weren't spanked. We have our instrument

[–]probablyaname 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (30子コメント)

Why is Becker the go to example for economic imperialism? A lot of his applications of economic theory to 'traditional' sociological topics weren't correct, and often had troubling consequences when applied to policy.

[–]besttrousers 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (25子コメント)

A lot of his applications of economic theory to 'traditional' sociological topics weren't correct

If you're claiming a Nobelist is wrong, you should really back it up a bit more.

[–][deleted] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Two paragraphs, says the rule.

[–]usrname42chronicler of the badx wars 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

We should put the Ponderay two-paragraph rule in the sidebar.

[–]PonderayFollows an AR(1) process 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I endorse this for totally self serving reasons.

[–]probablyaname 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Let's take the famous example of Becker's model for punishment. In 'Crime and Punishment' He writes the optimal strategy for punishment would be increasing the severity of sentencing to deter criminals from doing crime. Supposedly, according to this model, and his application of rational choice theory, we would be spending less on public services like police, prisons, and the criminal justice courts, simply because the consequences of the crime, for criminals, would outweigh the benefits, thus would do less crime. We have a natural experiment to test out this theory. In the 1980s, in both America and Canada, this type of 'tough on crime' policy was put into place, and not only did this not have an effect on crime rates (crime rates peaked in 1993 I believe), it increased the amount of money spend on the criminal justice system. His applications of theory were wrong in both directions. Now this doesn't mean rational choice theory is wrong when applied to crime per se (though I really don't think it is overly right either), but Becker's application of it was wrong. I can't think of many 'victories' of Becker's work in terms of sociology.

[–][deleted] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We have a natural experiment to test out this theory. In the 1980s, in both America and Canada, this type of 'tough on crime' policy was put into place, and not only did this not have an effect on crime rates (crime rates peaked in 1993 I believe), it increased the amount of money spend on the criminal justice system.

I'm not sure you understand what the phrase "natural experiment" means. Replace "US and Canada" with "Singapore" and everything you have said is wrong.

[–]besttrousers 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

not have an effect on crime rates

What's your counterfactual?

[–]probablyaname 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm not sure if I need a counterfactual here. I mean the application of the policy happened before the long crime decline of the 90s and 00s, and happened before the peak of crime in the early 90s. If there was a statistical causality between longer sentences and deterrence of crime it would have already been found as Becker lays out a pretty clean model (and not just by sociologists, but also economists, political scientists, and so on, the crime decline has been something of a mystery, and has been worked on for a very long time by experts from all over). But I guess my counterfactual would be we would largely see the same kinds of crime rates as when we applied the policies, but we would be spending less money on the criminal justice system.

[–]besttrousers 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm not sure if I need a counterfactual here. I mean the application of the policy happened before the long crime decline of the 90s and 00s, and happened before the peak of crime in the early 90s.

And?

I have no idea how your second sentence supports your first.

[–]probablyaname 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Essentially, I mean, if Becker's model here is correct we should see a direct and immediate drop in both crime rate and public spending, but we don't. We see an crime increase, and we see a spending increase, then we see a crime decrease, and a spending increase that seems to little to do with increasing sentences. Here's a blog post by Alex Tabarrok that hopefully explains what I'm getting at my eloquently than I.

[–]besttrousers 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I agree with the Tabarrok post in principle, but I don't think that you can make a claim like "we should see a direct and immediate drop in both crime rate and public spending".

Trying to make the types of inferences based on observational data is notoriously difficult. Why would the drop be immediate? Why couldn't there be other, simueltaneous, changes that overwhelm the effect?

[–]gorbachev[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Comes to thread R1ing people for citing longitudinal evidence as causal without a serious identification strategy

Gets into argument and cites time series evidence in the same way

[–]probablyaname 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

But I'm...not arguing for any causal connection between anything? I'm, quite explicitly, arguing that Becker's model offers up to no 'serious identification strategy' when it comes to crime, at the very least. And probably to the other things he studied. Hell, Noah Smith points this out in the thingy you linked to.

[–]guga31bbeducation policy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm, quite explicitly, arguing that Becker's model offers up to no 'serious identification strategy' when it comes to crime

What? Models and identification strategies are different things so this isn't a coherent criticism.

[–]probablyaname 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure, I'm not prideful enough to not admit that I'm in over my head when it comes to quantitative methods.

[–]gorbachev[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

But I'm...not arguing for any causal connection between anything?

No, you're just making random inferences from a time series. One can simultaneously be aware that Becker's models are oversimplified while also understanding that a) you probably can't draw valid inferences about them by staring at a national time series graph and that b) they were of significance in moving the field forward.

Anyway, read what Justin Wolfers has to say about him.

[–]probablyaname 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I've already read that actually. Look I don't think Becker is some smuck or something. He was obviously an important scholar in not only economics, but also sociology (he wouldn't be one of the first people you learn about in criminology otherwise). But I just think using him as some kind of beachhead in 'economic imperialism' is overstated. Its not as if he was offering anything new to sociology, Durkheim, one of the founders of the field proper, was doing similar things. He's important to economics because he opened up that field to things outside of 'economics'.

[–]gorbachev[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

But I just think using him as some kind of beachhead in 'economic imperialism' is overstated.

[...]

He's important to economics because he opened up that field to things outside of 'economics'.

Perhaps we don't quite agree about the meaning of the word "beachhead".

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[removed]

    [–][deleted] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    here. Easily one of the funniest things posted here.

    Looks like /u/tiako actually wrote it.

    [–]wumbotarianhemispheric common market 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Nice! thanks.

    [–]gorbachev[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Ponderay Rule.

    My understanding talking to old timers is that while Becker was clearly pushing for really basic models, he was doing so against a baseline of no models at all. So, he basically opened the door for future researchers to come in and use more rigorous approaches to misc sociological topics.

    Also, Becker is a U Chicago type. Their MO back then and still sort of now was to make their point by being outrageous and starting fires. Everyone, often enough themselves, know they've gone a bit too far: but along the way, they've torched so many of your prior assumptions that you wake up and realize they've actually made a substantial contribution. Or that's how I see it anyway.

    [–]probablyaname 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Adolphe Quetelet (an important figure in criminology history) was using statistical models to study crime and its relationship to sociological factors before the 1900s, and this framework for studying sociological phenomenon never went away. I really think this is a case of an expert coming into a field with no historical context and declaring victory for using methods that were already established 50+ years before.

    [–]gorbachev[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    statistical models

    uhhhhhh

    Edit: I mean, Becker wasn't about statistics. It was more theory

    [–]probablyaname 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Sorry, 'statistical analysis'. Or more essentially, quantitative methods.

    [–]PonderayFollows an AR(1) process 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Well it's economics because... mumble mumble human capital formation.

    [–]--o -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I shall hope this is an open invitation for mathematicians and physicists to stomp all over this sub. Not because they'd be right but because it apparently needs to happen once in a while for people to mind their fields.

    [–]PonderayFollows an AR(1) process 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Economists have done good work on science related subjects. I don't see a reason for their to be a blanket ban.

    [–]--o -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    A blanket ban against physmats? That's the closest to a blanket ban I might have proposed. However some people upthread seem to be positioning economics as the crown jewel of social sciences hence, so my little fantasy goes, they might benefit from some interaction from the well known masters.

    [–]jmo10Discusses cavalry tactics at the Battle of Austerlitz 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Econophysics is a thing and it's laughable. If physicists are masters of science then that field is a terrible way to show it.

    Although there have been physicists who have made the switch successfully. Rob Engle is the most notable one.

    And plenty of mathematicians have successfully made their way into economics too like Maskin and Myerson.

    [–]gorbachev[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    LOL

    Please do so, econophysics is usually worth the laugh.

    Q: How many econ PhDs does it take to misprice a mortgage backed security?

    A: Nobody knows, the hedge funds only hired the physics wunderkinds to do that.

    [–]IntegraldsLiving on a Lucas island 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Studies that suffer from blatant endogeneity issues are R1able regardless of substantive subdiscipline.

    [–]Greecl -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Christ, and this is why social science gets a bad rep.